Talk:Reincarnation

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Contents 1 The article needs focus and a better structure 2 Problem with 'Concluding Comment' 3 Proposed New Page: Reincarnation and Hinduism 4 POV

[edit] The article needs focus and a better structure

CarlosRibeiro 22:12, 28 October 2006 (UTC) - In my opinion this article grew way to much, and needs more focus, or a better structure. Section boundaries are not being respected, and some views on the subject take a disproportionate amount of space. Due to the discussion on the scientific aspects regarding reincarnation, there has been a lot of editing; information on hinduist beliefs also takes a lot of space.

I believe this page should be a starting point for those looking for information regarding reincarnation. Specific views or beliefs should be discussed either into their own pages, or strictly inside a specific section. Adding more text to this page only makes it more confusing and less helpful to the casual reader. I propose the page to be split in such a way that only the main arguments from all sides are presented here, and details are discussed in the specific topic.

I agree that this page has become unfocused and without a coherant structure over time. However it makes sense to me that Hindu & Buddhist perspectives on reincarnation be explored in some amount of depth (as at present) because the theories of reincarnation and re-birth are essential to thier overall philosophies. The Jainist perspective should probably be mentioned in a more detailed manner than at present, but I'm aware this would make the page longer still. It's going to be a big job to fix up the article as a whole as there as just so many viewpoints on the subject. For me the intro is okay - it's the later sections and some kind of 'concluding' paragraph that is lacking. Ys, GourangaUK 11:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Given that the Reincarnation Research article is referred to, I suggest that the Research and Debate section (and sub-sections) could be condensed into a new, smaller section simply called Scientific Research. At present, discussion of research by Bishai, in particular, adds little and should be deleted. Johnfos 23:55, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Also, the "scientific publications" list at the end of the article needs to be better formatted and reduced in length. Johnfos 21:54, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Have now made these changes. Johnfos 12:36, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

This article is much improved now. Section boundaries are being better respected, and some sections which had a disproportionate amount of space have been edited. All in all, it is a tighter and better structured article now. Johnfos 02:02, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problem with 'Concluding Comment'

This 'Concluding Comment' section has no citations to its reference that "Reincarnation is once again attracting the minds of intellectuals and the general public in the West". Citations are required to indicate that this section is not just speculation.

Also, the 'science of reincarnation' statement is an idication of an obviously theistic bias.

I've tried to word the Concluding Comment more carefully now, and have provided some references. See what you think. Johnfos 12:28, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Your addition to this section is an improvement. But there still needs subtantiation for the statment "Reincarnation is once again attracting the minds of intellectuals and the general public in the West". Statistics showing that there is a significant change (ie: increase) in the topic of reincarnation is required for this statement to be included. Aequitas1234 16:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Have made a change. See what you think. Johnfos 20:58, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed New Page: Reincarnation and Hinduism

I feel that the topic of "Reincarnation and Hinduism" is a major one which deserves its own page, in much the same way that the topic of Rebirth (Buddhist) has its own page. It could contain all the material in the existing Hinduism section here, and more. We could then refer readers to the new page at the start of the Hinduism section of this article, instead of referring to Samsara, as we do now, which is about much more than Hinduism. Johnfos 20:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Have made this change. Johnfos 03:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV

I have added the POV because of a strong bias in the structure and tone of this article. The scientific research section is my primary concern, however the rest of the article has a biased tone as well. Take this for example;

"Some scientists and skeptics, such as Paul Edwards, have analyzed many of these accounts. In every case they apparently found that further research into the individuals involved provides sufficient background to weaken the conclusion that these cases are credible examples of reincarnation. Philosophers like Robert Almeder, having analyzed the criticisms of Edwards and others, say that the gist of these arguments can be summarized as "we all know it can't possibly be real, so therefore it isn't real" - an argument from lack of imagination."

The structure alone points a a reincarnation bias. By including both arguements for and against the existance of reincarnation in the same section the article seems to be presenting a viewpoint then promptly shooting it down.

Another area of concern is the "Contemporary movements and thinkers" section. The majority of groups listed in this section are religous. By catagorizing them as "Contemporary movements and thinkers" the article seems to give them some sort of legitamacy in a encyclopedic or scientific context. Religions are by definition based on faith. Therefor they cannot be used to provide scientific support or critisizem for any topic. If this section was named "Religious view of reincarnation" it would be far more neutral. As it stands it is unacceptable and when I have a bit more time I will change it. There are many other problems similer to this and I suggest that a total restructering be done, which I would be happy to help with. Foolishben 01:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

From my perspective the title Contemporary movements and thinkers is general enough to cover the information given and wouldn't agree that the title in itself constitutes a strong bias. The scientific section is seperated below under a different header. Not all viewpoints in the Contemporary section are necessarily religous - unless anything concerning reincarnation is to be classified in that way. What do others think? It could do with a tidy-up maybe to remove any POV remarks? Regards, Gouranga(UK) 12:30, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Gouranga, Thanks for shifting the NPOV tag. I agree with what you have said, although I have suggested a new section heading: "Contemporary perspectives". And I would also like to see a new sub-section relating to "Reincarnation in popular western culture", eg., films, novels, songs, which could help to reduce the perceived religiosity of the article as a whole. I have also reduced the length of the Hinduism and Buddhist sections slightly. And, yes, the tidy-up you mention is a good idea. Johnfos 06:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The paragraph begining 'Some scientists and skeptics, such as Paul Edwards...' is still very biased. Edwards being described as 'skeptic' while Robert Almeder is described as 'Philosopher' not 'Supporter' shows a degree of bias. Also, Almeders statment describing an 'argument from lack of imagination' is in no way a valid argument against Edwards views (See article on the Flying Spaghetti Monster for an example). Adding fallicies such as this undermine the reliability of this section.Aequitas1234 16:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Have removed the implication that Paul Edwards is a skeptic, but would make the general comment that it's actually quite difficult to do justice to everyone's views in such a small section, which is why the main Reincarnation research article is referred to. Johnfos 20:36, 25 March 2007 (UTC)