Wikipedia:Reference desk archive/October 2004 II

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Contents 1 Textual Analysis 2 Religious food laws 3 Japanese transliteration 4 Was Demomotus really a presocratic Greek philosopher? 5 WORK CITED PAGE 6 What glacier is this? 7 list of advertising slogans 8 Randomness 9 Wrong arrows? 10 Name and location of a monument 11 How Do I quote from Wikipedia? 12 Is encyclopedia available off-line? 13 How Can I Change The Drive Letter On My HD and CD ROM? 14 John Kerry- Right wing? 15 peter minshall 16 Food Spoilage 17 supply ship Argonne 18 changed names during marriage 19 The Tesla Coil torus 20 Language(s) where adjectives follow nouns? 21 The American School 22 The American National Anthem before 1931 23 when was leibnitz caculator was invented 24 Bibliography 25 Political Quizlet

[edit] Textual Analysis

Pl help me giving me a lead for referencing on "textual analysis as a qualitative method". I appreciate material/references that can explain the process of doing this in relation to mental health,education,sociology especially "how to do this" is also another struggle. Thank you much in advance for help/suggestions. malathi

If you are looking for qualitive text analysis methods, you might want to look at http://www.eblong.com/zarf/markov/ (specifically, it's about Markov chain analysis). →Raul654 21:38, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Religious food laws

Does Wikipedia have an article on religious food laws, eg no beef for Hindus, no pork for Muslims, kosher foods for Jews, etc? Some quick searching didn't turn anything up. I think it could be an interesting article if written by the right person, but I want to make sure there's not something like this already out there before I put it on Requested Articles. Garrett Albright 21:44, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Well, there's a fairly thorough Kosher article, as well as the beginnings of Muslim dietary laws. -- Wapcaplet 22:04, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Japanese transliteration

Can someone give me パジェロ in Romaji please? Thanks. Chameleon 13:42, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

パジェロ is pajero in Hepburn rōmaji. See for example [1] Gdr 15:07, 2004 Oct 12 (UTC)

I know it means pajero, but is that the exact transliteration of パジェロ according to the Hepburn system? It seems rather exact. I was expecting something like "pa ji ye lo". Chameleon 15:20, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yes, it's exact. See the Hepburn article. ジェ for je is an example of "extended katakana", used to represent sounds not found in native Japanese but needed to write words imported from other languages. Gdr 15:56, 2004 Oct 12 (UTC)

Ah OK, great, thanks a lot. It's for this page, if you're curious. Chameleon 16:29, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Was Demomotus really a presocratic Greek philosopher?

I recently came across an article about Demomotus. According to the article, he was a presocratic Greek philosopher. The article doesn't provide any references however, and it was written by a single user who has only contributed for one day. I also couldn't find anything about Demomotus on google, except for content that (apparently) is mirrored from Wikipedia. I also can't find any references in the index of Plato's complete works, who (according to the article) was influenced by him.

Can anyone who knows more about the subject confirm that this article is not a hoax? Sietse 15:32, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This has a funny odor to it. A verbatim copy of this is here, although it is hard to say which came first as that has zero info about it. I suspect that site merely copied the WP article without attribution, but it could be the other way around. In any case, this article is in serious need of cleanup and verification. I added a note to Talk:Pre-Socratic philosophy asking for folks more knowledgeable in the area to look at it. older≠wiser 16:02, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

This article appears to be entirely bogus. There is no mention of the subject in the online Britannica, xreferplus or The Times digital archive 1785-1985. I added a "disputed" tag. --Heron 16:45, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I took the liberty of placing this on Wikipedia:Votes for Deletion. It is complete nonsense. func(talk) 16:57, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Okay, so it really is a hoax. Thank you all for your assistance. Sietse 17:14, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] WORK CITED PAGE

I need to list a document from your web site. I have searched but can't seem to find date of article or any other information for MLA format. The article is Mary Kay Letourneau and I used yahoo as the search engine. It's the first article listed on the yahoo search results. Can you help?? My paper is due tomorrow and I need to do a Work Cited Page.

My e-mail address is jvolz@rider.edu.

Thank you.

I've mailed a pointer to Wikipedia:Citing Wikipedia Sietse 16:51, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] What glacier is this?

Can anyone tell me what glacier this is? I think it might be the Muir Glacier, but I'm not sure. I do know that the cruise ship spent a lot of time letting people look at it. - RedWordSmith 17:51, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Was there another glacier, quite dirty, immediately perpendicular to it? When we were at Glacier Bay last summer, the cruise stopped for quite a while where both the Grand Pacific glacier (the dirty one) and the Margerie Glacier (the clean one, which I think yours might be the picture of) were. Margerie was calving frequently, which is why we stopped there. --jpgordon {gab} 19:02, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Not sure, I think it's possible. I'll look through my album a bit more; I do know that it was calving; a family member who got a picture of some of the calving think's it's the Margerie glacier as well. - RedWordSmith 18:31, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] list of advertising slogans

[edit] Randomness

I'm sure I've been told before that a computer cannot generate a truly random number. Am I just misremembering? If not, why is it not possible? I've looked at our article on randomness which hasn't helped. --[[User:Bodnotbod|bodnotbod » .....TALKQuietly)]] 02:46, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

You are not 'misremembering'. Any random number generation program that you write will have a predetermined logic, which you will encode. Hence, the numbers generated can't be truly 'random' (i.e. they have causal dependencies). Such numbers are usually called pseudo-random numbers. There are some attempts to generate random numbers using the entropy in the environment. But, the question whether anything in nature can be random leads to the philosophical question Deterministic universe or non-deterministic universe?. -- Sundar 03:07, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

You should check Pseudo-random number and Pseudorandom number generator. I think they might answer your questions — Kieff | Talk 03:01, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

It's very hard for a digital computer to generate random numbers (let's not say impossible), and most 'random number generators' are deterministic pseudo random number lists, seeded with a number picked from an analogue source (like key presses, or the voltage on an analogue input line). That is to say that if you know all the variables going on, you can predict what numbers a computer will generate. In the old days this was exploited by computer games, notably Elite for the BBC micro, which had a huge number of planets and descriptions. They weren't stored, but were randomly generated they were always the same because the random number generator was always seeded with the same value, and so always generated the same random universe. Computers are essentially deterministic - they do what they are told (exactly what they are told), and knowing the initial circumstances, they can never surprise us. Mark Richards 03:07, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

A point often missed is that, in most of the common, day to day tasks in which a personal computer would need a "random" number, true "randomness" usually isn't needed. Determining how a villain should move in a video game or which "random quote of the day" should be selected doesn't require what a mathematician or computer scientist would strictly consider a "random" number. The general idea behind pseudo-random numbers is to take a "seed" value, (often the date or time in seconds, milliseconds, or "ticks"), and perform a pre-set calculation upon it. The value produced is usually "random enough" for all but the most serious of mathematical or scientific calculations. func(talk) 03:53, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'd also like to point out that people are no better at coming up with random numbers. For example, if you were to ask a large group of people to come up with 10 random numbers between 1 and 10, the number of sequences they give you that have the same digit more than twice in a row will be far out of line with what would be expected in a truly random distribution, since it feels intuitively "less random". Cvaneg 17:30, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

A very good point. The US Army once perform an experiment, in which it had typists try to bang out random sequences, for crytographic purposes. They discovered that it really wasn't possible: there was a tendency for a left hand key to follow a right hand key to follow a left hand key, etc.; and for most of the keys to be on the home row. The difficulties of creating a true random number sequence (one not generated by a "deterministic algorithm") is one of the reasons why the world's only truly unbreakable encrytion scheme is almost never used in practice, the One-time pad. func(talk) 17:51, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You might also want to look up Hardware random number generator. — Matt 11:22, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for those. The idea of seeding from a date or other constantly shifting seed is interesting. And the stuff about Elite being seeded by the same number each time, what a good idea. I can see now I didn't look closely enough at the see also section of randomness. --[[User:Bodnotbod|bodnotbod » .....TALKQuietly)]] 19:35, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong arrows?

I've been told that the arrows in the images I've done for Lever are in wrong positions and directions. Can anyone verify so I can make the proper changes? — Kieff | Talk 03:00, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

They look okay to me. -- Cyrius|✎ 14:21, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

They look good to me as well. You've got them coming from the center of gravity, where else would they go? Theresa Knott (The torn steak) 14:27, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'd be curious to know who said they were in the wrong position. There is no discussion at the article's talk page. func(talk) 14:41, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I would have put the arrows labelled "output" on the other side of the beam. A nicer font would be good too. Gdr 15:08, 2004 Oct 13 (UTC)

But the output force isn't in that direction. -- Cyrius|✎ 15:15, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Huh? How did what I wrote imply that I would have changed the direction of the arrows as well as their position? Gdr 15:48, 2004 Oct 13 (UTC)

Sorry, misread. -- Cyrius|✎ 21:03, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I would also argue that the "output" arrows should have their bases on the lever and be pointing away from it; not to change their direction but to make it clear that the resultant force is emerging from the lever, as it were. This would seem more intuitive to me. Sharkford 15:59, 2004 Oct 13 (UTC)

I agree with Sharkford. The directions are certainly correct, but vectors are usually drawn with their tails at the point of application and their heads at the opposite end (e.g. this picture), which is not the way you have drawn them. I would not go as far as to say that you are wrong - just slightly unconventional. --Heron 16:05, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ok, I've changed them. Also, changed the font. Hope that's better now :P. Thanks everyone — Kieff | Talk 22:51, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Name and location of a monument

What's the name and location of a monument that is a huge concrete(?) arch? — Kieff | Talk 06:08, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

That is the Gateway Arch in Saint Louis, Missouri. It's made of steel. I doubt concrete could support itself like that. →Raul654 06:28, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

Well the article says the first 300ft (or the bottom half) of the Gateway Arch is reinforced concrete clad in stainless steel, so it is at least partly concrete.

There is also the Persian vault at Ctesiphon - not really a monument but built around 200AD from just mud bricks, stands at 110ft high and is one of the oldest arches in the world. There is a better picture here. -- Solipsist 07:02, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks you two. The Gateway Arch was what I was looking for. Ahh, I always thought it was a beautiful thing, but never had a clue of where that was. — Kieff | Talk 07:07, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

Sends Raul654 back to remedial reinforced concrete 101. Tsk tsk tsk. --Tagishsimon

[edit] How Do I quote from Wikipedia?

Hello, I want to quote a therm from wikipedia how should I do in it APA style? Where can I find necessery information such as author, year, etc? Thank you very much in advance.

Cez

This is explained in Wikipedia:Citing Wikipedia. Good luck! Sietse 11:00, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Is encyclopedia available off-line?

Congratulations to the folks who created, maintain and contribute to wikipedia. I find the content of this encyclopedia absolutely terrific and there is nothing else to my knowledge that match it elsewhere. My question is: is there any way to download the entire wikipedia article library or is it available in a dvd so that someone could use it in a location where internet is not available? This encyclopedia is simply phenomenal.

Thanks, on behalf of all the thousands of contributors, for your compliments. The idea of a wiki, of course, is that anyone can "create, maintain and contribute to wikipedia" - so feel free to help! It is possible to download Wikipedia: see Wikipedia:Database download and http://download.wikimedia.org/. --Ðåñηÿßôý | Talk 02:02, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Mandrakesoft are intending to produce a DVD containing the English and French Wikipedias sometime in 2005. -- Arwel 13:15, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thank for the info. I tried to download at the site: http://download.wikimedia.org/ at the "IMAGE AND UPLOADED FILES English wikipedia images and files 20040609_upload.tar.aa but I get an error message that the site is not available. Any special reason?

If you want to download articles you should have tried under the heading raw database dumps and pick the language of the wikipedia you want. Why the link you clicked didn't work, I don't know. [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|^(talk)]] 13:51, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] How Can I Change The Drive Letter On My HD and CD ROM?

Since upgrading to Windows XP the drive letters on my HDs and CD Roms are not as they were when I had Windows 98. I would like to change the drive letters, with the exception of C of course, so that they make sense to me.

Thanks so much for your help.

                               Ross Lambourn.
                               <email address removed>

Try this: Inside explorer rt-click on MyComputer and then choose Manage. A new window appears where you should choose disk managament Then a list of drive appears and right click over the partition you want to change and select "change disk drive letter" Good luck

[edit] John Kerry- Right wing?

Hi there. I am doing a print journalism course in college and i have to give a seminar on John Kerry's position on the political compass. I was wondering if John Kerry is right wing or left wing, and why he is considered this? Also, if you could provide me with some places i could find out more about this. Thank you so much my email address is naomi_b86@hotmail.com Naomi Klein

Surely not the Naomi Klein, hahah.

Well, Kerry is centre-right, but in the right-wing American political stage he is liable to get labelled far left, as Bush recently called him. Chameleon 18:39, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What Chameleon is alluding to is that, if Kerry was a politician in most western European countries and retained the same views, they would probably be perceived approximately as "center-right" in those countries. Other Western countries are generally more statist than the US.--Robert Merkel 20:42, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hmm. I would say that Kerry is left of center. Whether one would actually call him "left-wing" at any time later than the mid-1970s is another matter. Probably the Republicans would like to paint him so. As a person who considers himself to be on the left, I can say is there is a lot of space between John Kerry and myself, and there is still quite a bit of space to my left. However, I doubt you could find an American who shares Kerry's politics and would describe him/herself as "on the right", even the center-right. I would strongly suggest that you read Left-right politics and possibly political spectrum. -- Jmabel|Talk 19:02, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)

It depends entirely on your perspective, and indeed, the whole left/right thing is really not that helpful in modern politics. To the extent that we can say at all, Kerry is probably to the left of Bush on most issues, while both are to the right of virtually every other developed world politician. Intrigue 20:37, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"The whole left/right thing is really not that helpful in modern politics" only because we are given a choice between centre-right and a bit further right across the Western world these days. Real politics can only happen in the streets now.

I've read a bit more about Kerry now, and it seems that although on key economic issues he is centre-right, he is more progressive on some social issues, and was even relatively radical as a young man. There is more difference than I thought between him and Bush, almost enough to make it worth voting. Chameleon 21:58, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Where the heck are you people from where you think John Kerry is "center-right?!" His voting record is one of the most liberal (left) in the Senate. He wants to repeal Bush's tax cuts, head more in the direction of socialized health care, keep abortion legal, increase the minimum wage, cozy back up to the UN... Perhaps these are the objectives of "center-right" politicians in China or something, but in US terms, he's a lefty! Here's Kerry's congressional record from a non-partisan site: [2] Garrett Albright 06:45, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Us real lefties don't think of Kerry as being much of a lefty, but owing to a lack of options, we'll be voting him in to office in November anyway. ("...cozy back up to the UN..."? What is it about being part of a rogue nation that appeals to you???) func(talk) 06:55, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Not "rogue," merely sovereign and in possession of a pair. But this is not the place for such discussions... If you'd like to scrap it out a bit, I invite you to my talk page. Garrett Albright 14:22, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It all depends on from where you're looking at the political spectrum. By European standards, all US national politicians range from "right wing" to "extreme right wing". Even many of Howard Dean's policies would put him firmly on the right. -- Arwel 10:29, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Wow, I'm astonished... I can't imagine how Kerry and Dean would be considered "right-wing" in a place other than a country full of socialists! Maybe I don't know enough about European politics… are things really skewed that far to the left over there?! Still, I contend that, by American standards at least, Kerry is a lefty. Naomi, if you're still reading, what country are you going to school in? Perhaps that will have some bearing in what answer your instructor is looking for. Garrett Albright 14:22, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Then you obviously haven't been keeping track of the agendas of Ralph Nader, Peter Camejo, David Cobb and whichever dude the Socialist party is running for President. Those guys are the real left-wing, and they're all Americans. And Kerry and Dean are definitely right-wing in that baby-eating place called Scandinavia. I personally think Kerry is a centrist, maybe slightly right-leaning. A Libertarian website named Kerry as a right-winger (but not as blatant as Bush). [3] Johnleemk | Talk 16:06, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Against a UK political background, some of Kerry's policies taken in isolation (e.g. support for gun ownership, support for capital punishment for convicted terrorists) would definitely be classified as right-wing. As has already been said, it all depends on culture and context. Gandalf61 16:24, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

• Yes, I'm from the UK and US politics is rightly regarded as being to the right of ours. I would view Kerry as being right of centre in global terms. You might want to try and feed Kerry's answers to certain issues into http://www.politicalcompass.org/ and see where he comes out. --[[User:Bodnotbod|bodnotbod » .....TALKQuietly)]] 16:57, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)

I know that someone using Europe's politics as a model might place the US Democratic party as 'right-wing', though I don't think they could explain why the US perspective of calling conservative European parties 'left-wing' isn't equally as valid. Personally, from my understanding of world politics, I think the American way of gauging the spectrum is more clear eyed perspective--due to my observation that in the US, both extremes on the spectrum are given as much credit as each other, not one more valid, but there is a demand for centrism and moderation everywhere; while from my surface understanding of European politics it looks like they have a more skewed measuring stick, more likely to look down on one side. If I would use this spectrum at all, I would consider Kerry 'left-center'; though I don't find it completely useful because some politicians, like Kerry, are eclectic, and also there are many issues say that aren't pushed in the mainstream, but the support they have cut across the spectrum, from the left, right, and center (in many ways, Buchanan, Nader, and Perot are more alike than different). If anyone wants me to expand my view or wants to contradict it, maybe go to my talk page. --Brianshapiro 05:11, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] peter minshall

i am interested in obtaining a video clip on the 1996 olympic opening and closing ceremony. the person peter was a trinidadian artist who created ths costumes for this event and i am doing a speech in class on him. please advise how and where i can obtain a copy of this. this is really important to me. thanks

nadia

Have you tried asking at a university library, or your state's research library? They often have this kind of thing, and if they don't they'll probably know where to get it.--Robert Merkel 20:04, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Food Spoilage

I've always been told that certain foods like shellfish and dairy products are more prone to spoilage than other foods like beef, but why is that? Also, if you were to take a piece of spoiled food and cook it to a point where you've killed all the bacteria and microorganisms, could you then eat it with little fear of food poisoning? Cvaneg 18:56, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Food spoilage is caused by bacteria, different bacteria thrive in different environments. Presumably those that like shellfish grow faster than those that like beef.

The answer to you second question is a definite no. When a person is infected by bacteria, there is an incubation time of days or even weeks until they become ill. During this time the bacteria are growing inside them. But food poisoning happens much too fast for that to be the case. There is no incubation time, eating bad food will generally make you ill almost straight away. So obviosly something else is going on and the very name tells you what it is. Bacteria growing inside food produce toxins. You are literally poisoned when you eat the food. Heat will kill the bacteria but will not necessarily destroy the toxins that have already been produced. botulism is the classic example of a very powerful toxin. Theresa Knott (The torn steak) 22:15, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

P.s see our article Foodborne illness for details on this. Theresa Knott (The torn steak) 22:18, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] supply ship Argonne

I am the owner of a vase made from a gun shell, it has been machined so that it curves in towards the base, and decorated with a rose and the name Argonne 1918. It is a fired shell, and has a large and small 8 stamped on the bottom and some words I can't read. This "vase" must have taken hours to do, as it not only has the words and rose on it, the bottom portion has been shaped to represent leaves all around, and around the words is what I would call punched work...and the top rim of the vase is crimped. Years ago (over 40) I used to read encyclopedias just because I read everything, and in an obscure/also outdated then encyclopedia I read something about the supply ship Argonne fighting an air battle, or possibly it was the last battle of the Argonne, and I am mistaken about what I was reading after all this time...at any rate it was mentioned that the machinists made vases from the fired shells, to commemorate the end of either the battle aboard the ship or the forest. I have not been able to locate any thing like this since and would really like to know more about the history of the vase. Since if nothing else this vase and the other one that isn't nearly as elaborate were probably done at the same time there is some kind of historical value, if not monetary. Could you give me some kind of idea where to look for more information? Thank you, Sherry

This sounds like a common example of trench art. They were made be bored or wounded soldiers in WWI. This would have been made after the Battle of Argonne Forest. See also Trench Art of World War I Rmhermen 03:26, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] changed names during marriage

I recently read that Britney Spears is thinking about changing her name to Britney Federline. That got me thinking, how common is it for celebrities (especially actresses, who may have to rely on name recognition) to assume their husband's name, without a hypenated or double name? Can anybody come up with some examples? [[User:Rhymeless|Rhymeless | (Methyl Remiss)]] 03:07, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In Growing Pains, Maggie Malone changed her name to Maggie Seaver after marriage, but kept signing off on her broadcasts as Maggie Malone. I don't know of any 'real' examples. Salasks 03:15, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

Roseanne (Barr, Arnold, Thomas, nothing) is a pretty blatant example. --jpgordon {gab} 03:29, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'd forgotten about her, but she doesn't seem like a good example as she usually goes by her first name anyway... [[User:Rhymeless|Rhymeless | (Methyl Remiss)]] 03:36, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, she does now -- perhaps as a result of so many name changes. --jpgordon {gab} 03:59, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hillary Rodham only finally started using "Hillary Rodham Clinton" when her husband decided to run for president. -- Jmabel|Talk 03:44, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

How about Courteney Cox Arquette, who I think may have already gone back to just Courteney Cox. Cvaneg 22:33, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Mrs. Clinton began styling herself "Hillary Rodham Clinton" in 1982 when her husband ran for governor for the third time. See p. 93 of her memoir "Living History." Previously, she went by her maiden name, even after she was married. In the report on the impeachment of Nixon by the House Judiciary Committee, she is listed in the committee staff as "Hillary D. Rodham"; her middle name is Diane. PedanticallySpeaking 19:36, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)
• Several names came to me after some thought. Phylicia Rashad was billed as Phylicia Ayres Allen early on in the run of The Cosby Show but changed when she married the sportscaster. Jamie Lynn Sigler from The Sopranos is now billed as Jamie Lynn DiScala after her marriage. Nancy Davis took Ronald Reagan's name after she retired from acting; in Hellcats of the Navy she is still billed as Nancy Davis. (Besides, her real name was Anne Frances Robbins.) Formerly, many notable actresses were known by their husband's names, Mrs. Siddons, Mrs. Jordan, and Mrs. Patrick Campbell to name three. PedanticallySpeaking 14:50, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)

Mrs. Jordan perhaps does not belong on your list; she can hardly be said to have been known by her husband's name" when she wasn't married or otherwise associated with any man named Jordan. Sharkford 20:34, 2004 Oct 21 (UTC)

[edit] The Tesla Coil torus

Dang... I'm not sure what happened (probably Opera or my connection messing up) but I ended up erasing a section when I replied yesterday. So, I'm gonna ask again:

I'm building a Tesla Coil. I'd like to keep it on the original design, making the terminal be a torus, instead of a simple metal point or sphere. I have no idea where I could possibly get a hollow metal torus, so I thought I could make one myself. I had an idea for building this using PVC tubes and tinfoil (not sure if this word means exactly what I mean), but I'm not sure if this is safe. As far as I know, it is, but I wanna be sure.

I'd first get a section of a tube of big diameter, and then put several small rings of a smaller diameter tube around this one, in the outside. Then I'd wrap it up with tinfoil several times. This would lead to the hollow metal torus, with a PVC structure inside.

Now, would that be safe, and most important, would that work? Is there a better alternative? — Kieff | Talk 04:36, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

• I haven't the first clue about what sort of material, surface, or electrical properties would be required, but something else that comes to mind is perhaps some kind of plumbing or air-duct U-joints or elbow joints connected together. You can get clothes-dryer vent ducts that can be bent into a torus, though their exterior surface would not be very smooth. Maybe you could go raid your local Lowe's or Home Depot hardware store to see if they have anything ready-made that might fit your needs. -- Wapcaplet 21:40, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Language(s) where adjectives follow nouns?

Are there languages where adjectives follow their corresponding nouns rather than precede them (excluding usage in poetry)? -- Sundar 04:40, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

Latin and Greek come immediately to mind and I expect many more. Alteripse 04:48, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It's standard in French to have the adjective following the noun (though there are certain cases where it precedes the noun instead). I think this is a characteristic of Romance languages, as the article on adjectives says. It's also common in Hebrew. [[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 05:03, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, Alteripse and Sarah. -- Sundar 05:20, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

In French, at least, adjectives can have different meanings depending on whether or not they follow the noun. "L'ancien église" is not the same as "L'église ancien" (the former church and the old church, respectively). And some French adjectives have to come before the noun, "un bon homme" for example, never "un homme bon." I'm not sure if that helps, but it's some extra trivia anyway :) Adam Bishop 12:32, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Similarly in Spanish. Adjective-after-noun predominates, but adjective-before-noun can be used for emphasis. "El imbécil hombre" is stronger than "el hombre imbécil", suggesting indignation rather than merely stating that the guy's an imbecile. As in French, it can also shift meaning: the church example about can be reproduced with "la antigua iglesia" and "la iglesia antigua". -- Jmabel | Talk 23:08, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

Similar in Italian. The adjective can both be before and after the noun. Before is more

common than after. If the adjective is before it is called attributive and the adjective is a characteristic that is a personal opinon of the speaking (for example a nice girl in Italian is una bella ragazza). If the adjective is after the noun it is called predicative and the adjective is taking about a characteristic that is an objective description (for example a green grass is in Italian un prato verde and a sunny day is una giornata soleggiata AnyFile 15:21, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

While we are at it, some languages does not have a general rule for order of words. Polish language is one of them. Thus no order is invalid, it might be at most clumsy. Thus zielony autobus (green bus), and autobus zielony (bus green) are both correct, but most will say that first example sounds better. But some substantial amount of pairs sounds better with adjectives after nouns e.g. masło śmietankowe (butter creamy) jajko sadzone (egg over-easy), komputer osobisty (computer personal), Orzeł Biały (eagle white). Generally it depends on what is viewed as important in the pair, and this will go first. Przepla 12:56, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The Romance languages place adjectives after the noun. Germanic languages place them before, as do Chinese languages. There is probably a fairly even split between each preference among the languages of the world. Note that highly inflected languages such as Latin and many Slavic languages may have a free word order. Chameleon 13:26, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

As can be seen from the French and Spanish examples above, this statement about Romance languages is a bit exaggerated, though generally true. Does anyone know the story on Latin in this respect? -- Jmabel | Talk 23:10, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

In a very basic sentence the adjective would come after the noun, but you can really put almost any word anywhere in a Latin sentence. It's clearer when the adjective and noun are together, of course. There are some stylistic exceptions, for example, if there are two adjectives for the same noun, they tend to surround the noun (femina dives, a rich woman, but bella femina dives, a beautiful rich woman). Ablative phrases like "magna cum laude" work this way as well, in this case the adjective comes before the preposition as well ("cum magna laude" is technically correct, but it would not sound correct). Adam Bishop 19:49, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I don't know about Celtic languages in general, but certainly in Welsh the normal order is adjective after the noun, e.g. car newydd (car new), yr ysgol fawr (the school big). A modifier can come after the adjective - ysgol fawr iawn (a school big very). The only exception I can think of is where the word changes meaning because of its' location -- plentyn unig = an only child, unig plentyn = a lonely child. -- Arwel 23:28, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Is there an article where we discuss word order across languages? Or would one have to look language-by-language to find this out? -- Jmabel | Talk 23:34, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for all those who have responded. AFIK, Sanskrit has no word order and Tamil mandates only a partial order for words i.e. adjectives always precede the nouns, but together the pair can be placed in many positions. Also, I want to find out the fundamental feature(s) of any human language. Also of interest will be to find interesting outliers. Don't know where to have such a discussion? -- Sundar 05:44, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

Please post further discussions here User_talk:Sundar#Fundamental_characteristic.28s.29_of_all_human_languages or here User_talk:Sundar#Unique_characteristic.28s.29_of_each_human_language. -- Sundar 08:38, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] The American School

I'm seeking info, especially the author and date, of a short story I recall reading in one of my World Lit classes entitled The American School. It took place at a school operated by the Americans in occupied post-war Japan; I believe Japanese teachers were touring it and seeing how the Americans ran things, but there was obviously a lot of tension in the air. Googling "The American School" does little good, as it mostly returns references to actual schools abroad... even adding "Japan" and "short story" to the query doesn't help. :( Garrett Albright 06:51, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think this story was written in 1954 by Kojima Nobuo; does that ring any bells? AlexG 10:19, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

That would be it. Thank you! Garrett Albright 04:24, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] The American National Anthem before 1931

I posted this question on the Star-Spangled Banner talk page a while ago, but nobody has come up with an answer. Here goes again:

The date on which the Star-Spangled Banner was officially designated the National Anthem of the USA (March 3, 1931) often turns up in reference works. But before then, was there an official US national anthem, and if so, what was it? If not, what would have been played on appropriate occasions? JackofOz 06:55, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

There was no official U.S. National Anthem before the Star-Spangled Banner. When one was called for, a patriotic song would be played; I believe at the Olympics both the Star-Spangled Banner and My Country, 'Tis of Thee were used, which was confusing as My Country has the same tune as God Save the Queen. Gentgeen 09:22, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] when was leibnitz caculator was invented

History_of_computing_hardware#First_mechanical_calculators says Gottfried Leibniz invented his calculator in 1670. AlexG 13:34, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Bibliography

I am doing a report on Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain and I found your article very helpful. I want to use it as part of my "Works Cited" and I'm not sure how to write a Bibliography for this. Can you help me?

Thank you Tyler Chapman, 6th Grade student Classical Academy, Escondido, California

Strangely enough this question almost never comes up :p Look here for a myriad number of ways to cite Wikipedia Wikipedia:Citing Wikipedia

Cvaneg 20:18, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This appears to be our Frequently Asked Question. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:12, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

There's been some talk in the past of shoving citation info into the footer bar. -- Cyrius|✎ 23:44, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Political Quizlet

Is there a site where I can go that tells me which candidate my views most closely align with on the basis of the positions I state on various issues (as in a multiple-choice format)? --Gelu_Ignisque

This site purports to do something along those lines: [4] But I have severe issues with the wording of some of its questions. For example: "A significant advantage of a one-party state is that it avoids all the arguments that delay progress in a democratic political system. Agree or disagree?" I agree with that statement -- it's a fact -- but that does not mean I want anything to do with a one-party system! If there's a different one out there with more fairly-worded questions, I'd like to hear about it too. Garrett Albright 03:23, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Even if there was a quiz with fair questions, you would still have to consider each issue's relative importance. An extreme example of this would be single-issue voters who vote based on one issue that they consider very important regardless of how many other issues they may agree or disagree on. I'm afraid the only way to figure out the candidate to vote for is to do your own research. Fortunately for you, one of the few benefits of the two party system is you only have to research two candidates. Wikipedia has some decent articles, including U.S. presidential election, 2004, John Kerry presidential campaign, 2004, and George W. Bush presidential campaign, 2004 Cvaneg 05:11, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Of course, the United States is not a two-party system by force or law; merely by present mechanics, mechanics that (in my opinion) are weakening. Feel free to research all the other ones as well. Garrett Albright 06:06, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

While it may not be mandated in any sense of the word, you may want to look at First Past the Post electoral system and Duverger's law for an understanding of why it tends to be the case. While I am hesitant to discourage anyone from participating in the process and doing more research, I think it's important that people understand how their vote affects the electorate. In particular, people should be aware of the spoiler effect that their vote can have. If you are more liberal, then remember Ralph Nader in 2000 or if you are more conservative, consider Ross Perot in 1992. Of course, none of this applies if you live in a Blue state like California or a Red state like Texas. If that's the case, then vote for whoever you want, because you probably won't impact the presidential election anyway. Cvaneg 15:00, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I was asking because I thought the concept was interesting, not because I am undecided ... --Gelu Ignisque

Just as a point of fact, exit polls in 1992 conclusively showed Ross Perot's vote total pulled evenly from both candidates, around 50-50, and had no effect on swing states. (Interestingly, there was a question which asked who people would have voted for if they thought Perot could win, and he would have won with 36%) In fact, its strange that Perot is even thought of as a conservative spoiler, since Bush wanted him in the debates thinking he would hurt Clinton, as Clinton's poll numbers rose after Perot dropped from the race. Moderate/swing voters for years after 1992 were called 'Perot voters'. In 1996, exit polls showed Perot pulled more from Clinton than from Dole, probably because of his attacks on Clinton era corruption.

Secondly, you should realize that that the party system was completely different in the 19th century. At most times at the federal level there were two major parties, but every few election cycles there was a re-alignment and a host of new parties arose to compete to replace the old ones. Also, state politics (also local politics) was ruled by completely different parties, and more parties at a time, than the federal level. What was the change in the 20th century? There are many things you can blame, including the importance of money in politics, nature of the modern media, polling, and the left-right social issues. But the most powerful and overriding argument is that in the 20th century there started to be restrictive laws on things like ballot access, that were designed to keep third parties like the Socialists from having power.

--Brianshapiro 06:31, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)