Wikipedia:Reference desk archive/Language/2006 October 9

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[edit] Is Flemish Mutually Intelligible With Dutch?

Danke.100110100 00:47, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I only speak phlegmish when I have a cold. :-) StuRat 01:18, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
See Flemish (linguistics). --Canley 02:37, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes. Flemish is far more similar to Dutch say, American English is to British English. In Belgium, the language is usually referred to as "Dutch"; the word "Flemish" is mostly used only by us English speakers. --Auximines 22:16, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Note that in Dutch, that would be 'Nederlands', which is a clear reference to the Netherlands. They are basically the same language. Eg, Van Dale is the official dictionary for both versions of the language. But the choice of words differs. As does the pronounciation, especially with foreign words, which in Flanders are usualy 'dutchised', while in the Netherlands the original pronounciation is often preserved (especially with English words). Note that the language is also spoken in Suriname and the Netherlands Antilles. And Afrikaans is also a distant relative. And Frisian is officially a language (no, no, not a dialect!) that is very close to Dutch.
As for being mutually intelligible, I know a Belgian couple with whom I can communicate quite easily, although they have some puzzling expressions like "de velos kuisen", which means "cleaning the bikes". In the Netherlands we would say "de fietsen poetsen". But usually, if there is a miscommunication, it is due to a different pronunciation, which is a matter of getting used to. This also depends on where in Belgium or the Netherlands people are from. I grew up in Maastricht, close to the Belgian border, so that helps.
I have also had the opportunity to speak with a Frisian and a South African, each in our own language, and with some effort I could understand them, but after a while they switched back to Dutch because I missed too many subtleties. DirkvdM 06:31, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Wow, thank you. What do you mean subtleties? Danke.100110100 00:31, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plodweaver

Question moved from humanities desk

What is a "plodweaver"? I've been doing some genealogical research and have found the term "plodweaver" used to name the occupation for a number of people in the late 1700's early 1800's in England (Lancashire). I have not been able to find out what kind of work that referred to.12.30.222.108 19:50, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

This is a tricky one. According to the OED one of the meanings of plod is "A story or yarn; an excuse." Plod is entered in the Eng. Dial. Dict. as a Cornish word meaning ‘a short or dull story; a lying tale’." But it's unlikely that a joke would have been made if these are official documents you are looking at. The most similar relevant word I could find is the 16th c. word poldavis: "A coarse canvas or sacking, originally woven in Brittany, and formerly much used for sailcloth."--Shantavira 07:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I found plodweaver mentioned (as an occupation) on this page: http://www.great-harwood.org.uk/genealogy/lists/papists%201767.html. I don't know if that'll help, but it might get someone on the right track to looking. Foxjwill 21:20, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I also found on OED the word plod shoe which means "A plain hard-wearing shoe." Plodweaver could possibly have something to do with making shoes, but I'm nowhere close to positive. Foxjwill 21:27, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions. The occupations is occuring so frequently that it seems it might be something like "laborer". Dkcanuk 01:24, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

This is a guess, but given the context (Lancashire, late 1700s-early 1800s), I am guessing that a plodweaver might be a textile worker who weaves on a foot-treadle loom. This would be a weaver who plods. This was the period when textiels were produced in Lancashire by workers with their own treadle looms at home in putting-out system that was then giving way to the factory system. Marco polo 20:33, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Plod meant plaid in Lancashire dialect. In some areas a lot of people were employed in weaving plod/tartan-checked cloth - like here.--HJMG 09:17, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quotation of poetry mid-sentence in English

When quoting poetry in a sentence in English, does one retain capitalization that would otherwise be non-standard, or keep it? For example:

It is clear in this line that the poet is suggesting that we should not "Forget the glories" of this time.

(Where, in the poem, "Forget" is capitalized; having been the first word of the line). Should it be lowercase in this example? The Jade Knight 07:05, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

When quoting poetry, it should always be exactly as in the original; there may be all sorts of quirks of language that the poet wrote intentionally.--Shantavira 07:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Pedantically, I think the correct thing would be
we should not "[f]orget the glories"
with the brackets to indicate that the f was an outside change. I think just leaving it unchanged would be wrong, and that silently changing it would be a technical sin, but not one most people would care about. I disagree with Shantavira, in that while there exists poetry that uses and abuses all sorts of quirks of language, most poetry doesn't, and keeping it in your example would be gratitious. It depends on the text you're writing and the type of poetry you're quoting, and if you're writing it for a class, you probably ought to ask the teacher how they like it.--Prosfilaes 14:03, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
This could run the risk of form triumphing over substance. Poetry is meant to be spoken, to catch the music in it. Do that, and you suddenly realise that the convention of capitalising the first word of each line is just that - it almost never has any significance in terms of the meaning of the poem. The capital only has a function when it's in the poem itself. I wouldn't worry about retaining the capital in a quote. JackofOz 20:23, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Phellandrene

I'm looking for the root of this word. It's a chemical found in things like eucalyptus oil and smells quite a bit like it. Phellodendron is a genus of plants which is where the "phell" bit comes from, what does the prefix "phell" mean? Thanks for your help. Aaadddaaammm 07:31, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

OED gives the following:
< scientific Latin phellandr- (in Phellandrium, former genus name (Linnaeus Systema Naturæ (1735)) of a water dropwort (P. aquaticum; now called Oenanthe aquatica), from the seeds of which one of the compounds was first isolated;
< classical Latin phellandrion (in Pliny), of uncertain origin; perh. < Greek) + -ENE comb. form, after Italian fellantrene (L. Pesci 1883, in Gazz. Chim. Italiana 13 846). The following app. shows an earlier naturalization of the Italian word:1884 Jrnl. Chem. Soc. 46 331 Phellandrium Aquaticum.. This plant yields an essential oil, about 80 per cent of which consists of a terpene (Phellanthrene) boiling at 103-104°.
Don't know if that helps. The Jade Knight 07:56, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick reply! I just found "phellos" = cork (Greek). And Phellodendrons are also called "cork trees". Mystery solved, do you think? Aaadddaaammm 08:20, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Letter's of the alphabet in english to the cherokee alphabet

< would like to know how i can get a book or dictornary of cherokee letters or words what im trying to say is i wont to learn the cherokee language , and i need to know for example my name linda how is it spelled in the cherokee language, i would like to know the a-z of the cherokee alphabet so i could write in the cherrokee language if any one could help me , find a book i would love to have one i would be willing to pay for it. also, the book wrote by cheif Tom Vickers i would love to have i need a address to order it . thank s i will be looking forward to hearing from someone like a=what in the cherokee languae b= what and so on Thanks

There is a start of a wikipedia in Cherokee, but the fonts do not work for me. http://chr.wikipedia.org/
Also check Cherokee language and see if you can read the letters from it (I get only garbage).—Lgriot 08:58, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
This page has the Cherokee syllabary. Cherokee doesn't have an alphabet per se but rather symbols for each syllable in the language. "Li" is an upside-down "J," and "da" is a backwards "J." But you can't just say "n." You'd have to say something like "Li-na-da." (The capital Greek letter theta represents the "na" sound.) -- Mwalcoff 10:25, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Li- and -da seems obvious choices, but I don't know how n would be transcribed here. Japanese usually transcribes such consonants with *u, but I'm not sure if the Cherokee transcription is similar... 惑乱 分からん 11:55, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
If you want to transcribe your name's pronunciation instead of transliterating its usual English spelling, you might want to use li-nv-dv instead, IMHO. ("v" is what Mwalcoff's link used to represent the mid-central vowel.) Mid-central vowels are common epenthetic vowels. --Kjoonlee 17:08, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
It seemed that v was a nasal schwa, though, so I thought the pronunciation for that transcription (Li-nv-da) would sound something like "Linunghda"... Li-nv-dv would maybe be "linunghdungh"?... 惑乱 分からん 17:43, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
But would nasality be a distinctive feature in Cherokee? It isn't in English, where the vowel's probably nasalized between the l and n in Linda. Hmm.. I might suggest Li-nv-da instead, to be a little safer. ;) --Kjoonlee 17:50, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't appear that nasality would cause minimal pairs, the question is whether a more natural pronunciation would be "linada", "lineda", "linida", "linoda", "linuda" or "linunghda" =S ...
(Hmmm, reading up on http://public.csusm.edu/public/raven/cherokee.dir/cherlexi.html#Names , it'd seem the best choice probably is li-ni-da...) 惑乱 分からん 18:06, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Ahhhhhhh. I'm delighted to see an example of a front vowel being used in epenthesis. Somehow I had thought only mid-central/high-back/high-central vowels could be used. Thank you for enlightening me. :) --Kjoonlee 18:37, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

BTW, we have Cherokee syllabary at Wikipedia as well. --Kjoonlee 17:53, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Early word for "horny"?

Is there a word or expression used in medieval or renaissance English or any other language from that period for "horny" in the sexual sense? Or maybe found in literature or something?--Sonjaaa 17:04, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Allegedly, "lewd" was used in Old English in the 14th-15th century. Btw, are you talking about languages worldwide, from the earliest stages of writing up until the renaissance? Seems like an extremely broad scope... 惑乱 分からん 17:47, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for nitpicking, but I'd call the language Middle English. Lewd seems to have been spelt lewed at the time. --Kjoonlee 17:56, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe lustfull would fit better? Lewed could mean ignorant or vulgar as well. Lustfull wasn't unambiguous either, but judging from the descriptions in the OED, I think lustfull is closer to horny. The OED has an example of lustfull from 1579. --Kjoonlee 18:25, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
(Yeah, Middle English, not OE, probably not Medieval English...) Hmmm, but modern dictionaries only keep track of words which have survived, not words that perhaps were used more commonly, at the time... 惑乱 分からん 18:29, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
It's quite possible that there was no word, though I'm not really giving a qualified answer. Just that they don't really have a common word that means "horny" in Japanese; the common word "etchi" is used instead in a way much closer to "dirty" or "nasty" in English. Lewed (or another similar word) could have fit the gap nicely.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  12:05, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Latin term for "design and placement of shutters"

"Fenestration" is an English term for the design and placement of windows in a building, from the Latin fenestratus, from fenestra, window. I am looking for a similar term to refer to the design and placement of shutters on a building. An otherwise attractive facade of a building is sometimes spoiled by placing shutters alongside a window too wide or the wrong shape for the shutters to cover it, were they actually operable. There should be a better term than "shutterization."Edison 19:15, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, a shutter in Latin is "luminare". I don't know where to go from there though, "luminariation" I guess. Adam Bishop 19:39, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
That sounds too much like "illumination" to ever catch on. Oh well. I'll just have to say, nah, we didn't buy that house because of poor design and placement of shutters. On the other hand, it does sound like catchy b.s. to say "Note the line, the form, and the exquisite luminariation of the facade. Edison 17:13, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What does "purple rain" mean as referenced in America's song "Ventura Highway"?

I've tried to search this, but all I run into is references to Prince. Ventura Highway was released WAY before Prince, so I don't think he influenced them. The only definition I've found that kind of makes sense was provided by the "Urban Dictionary" link: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=purple+rain Their definition reads as follows:

"A restless feeling. A non-descript feeling of boredom, restlessness and confinement. A feeling one has when wanting to escape from responsibility (chiefly emotional) by traveling. Sometimes synonymous with 'wanderlust.' The desire to travel in order to escape an emotional commitment."

This definition definitely fits the song, but this site is the only reference to this definition I could find, and looking through some other definitions on the site, I question how accurate this may be. Any help anyone can offer would be GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks,

thor408

Well, you're not the first person to ask. Anchoress 10:35, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fear of the sky falling?

Is there a special term that means "fear of the sky falling"? In a modern context it might mean the fear of an asteroid crashing into the earth or something like that.--Sonjaaa 23:33, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Richard Lederer lists hundreds of phobias in his book, Crazy English, which include "astrophobia" (fear of stars) and "cometophobia" (fear of comets), but fear of heavenly objects (though specifically the weather) would be "meterophobia".--Shantavira 08:37, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
If you follow the google link for list of phobias, you might find entries that match your inquiry. Anchoress 10:31, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, have you read the Asterix comic books? 惑乱 分からん 11:01, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Vitalstatistix Syndrome? -- the GREAT Gavini 16:27, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Anyone who is afraid that the sky is falling is a little chicken. StuRat 02:00, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

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