Wikipedia:Reference desk archive/Language/2006 August 20

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Contents 1 Old Aramaic (1100 BCE–200 CE) Exact written translation needed 2 Prudhoe Bay Name 3 Tensed æ versus lax æ transcription 4 Definite Article Usage 5 RUEHC

[edit] Old Aramaic (1100 BCE–200 CE) Exact written translation needed

Good afternoon people, my names Adam and Im a born again christian and I am interested in having two tattoo's running down the undersides of my left and right forearms, On my right arm I would like 'Jesus' with the 'J' starting from the top point of my forearm and the rest of the letters following suit towards my hand. While on my left arm I would like 'Saves' with the 'S' starting from the top of my forearm with the rest of the letters working towards my hand aswell. My question is, after reading up on the articles of Aramaic Im completely confused by the context of how the words and letters are used to form the meaning I would like, which purely would be 'Jesus saves' as in, he saves souls. Especially as theres various forms of Aramaic, Im looking specificially for the translation of The Biblical Aramaic of the Hebrew Bible. So could someone please show me what symbols I would need and in the correct order to form the true definition of what I am seeking!As getting it wrong would absolutely change the whole 'meaning' and context of what I am trying to achieve,which in turn would completely change the whole interpretation of the words and selected language if just one error is made,which being a tattoo,I cant afford. Much apprectiated :-) Adam (Uk) --The Executioner 12:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

First off, the term "Old Aramaic" is usually reserved for pre-Achaemenid Persian Empire forms of the language (with a cut-off date more like 600 B.C. than 200 A.D.). Jesus' name was not in Old Aramaic. Secondly, if you want a Biblical Aramaic form of the name of Jesus, then open your Hebrew-Aramaic Tanakh directly to Ezra 5:2 and you'll see it right there: Yod-Shin-Waw-`Ayin or ישוע . There is no letter "J", of course... This name has been interpreted as being derived from YHWH and a triconsonantal root meaning "to save", but the particular form ישוע can't really be easily split into two halves. AnonMoos 16:33, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

While "Yeshua" by itself is related to the Hebrew root ישע for "to save", there has to have been a way of expressing "Yeshua saves" in Late Old Western Aramaic. Possibly the reconstructed Aramaic of the Reverend William Fulco can be of help. In the end, it is unlikely that there can be a hard guarantee that the form used is one that would have seemed natural to the historic followers of Jesus. --Lambiam^Talk 17:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The spelling ישוע continues through from Biblical Aramaic to Syriac, so the name probably would have been still spelled with those letters. But 1st century A.D. Judean and/or Galilean Aramaic was not all that much of a literary language (or at least not too many texts written it it have survived), so that trying to compose new sentences in it may be a little problematic... AnonMoos 22:01, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

You could try using Greek instead of Aramaic. It would probably be a bit easier to find a good translation, and while Jesus would have spoken Aramaic, the gospels were written in Greek. Linguofreak 19:04, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

There are a few problems with this request. The closest written form of Aramaic to the period of Jesus is Old Judaean Aramaic. There are only a few inscriptions of the Aramaic that Jesus may have spoken. Biblical Aramaic isn't really much to do with Jesus — its the language of the Book of Daniel and the Book of Ezra. As other contributors have mentioned, the spelling of Jesus' name is ישוע. The most appropriate Aramaic verb for 'saves' is פרק. It would be more idiomatic in Aramaic to say 'Jesus has saved us/me', which would be either פרקנא ישוע (praqnā/perqan Yešu‘, 'Jesus has saved us') or פרקני ישוע (perqan(ī) Yešu‘, 'Jesus has saved me'). I expect that both verbs were pronounced 'perqan' rather than the older, longer forms. If you have any further questions, ask away. — Gareth Hughes 23:16, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Prudhoe Bay Name

Why is Prudhoe Bay called Prudhoe Bay? Many thanks, --217.42.132.207 13:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

This link states that John Franklin named it after his friend Baron Prudhoe. Hope this helps.Sluzzelin 13:50, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

So much for my theory that it was named after a rather prudish whore: "I'm ready, but after we're done we have to say 500 Hail Mary's, OK ?". :-) StuRat 04:09, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

"For Unlustful Carnal Knowledge", huh? 惑乱 分からん 13:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tensed æ versus lax æ transcription

A technical question: In the Northeastern and Midwestern Northern US, there are two æ s, in different distributions according to dialect. Howe are these captured in IPA? Does anyone know? mnewmanqc 15:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

See Phonological history of English short A#æ-tensing. That's probably what you're looking for. --Ptcamn 15:17, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I suppose I should have looked there first. But one issue is that this notation is phonological and includes the raising aspect, which is subsequent (in time) to the tensing. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with it, or the suggestion, which I appreciate. I guess there is no established notation, and I'll just use my own ad-hoc version. (It's for a class). mnewmanqc 16:21, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The most popular ad-hoc version used in phonology papers and articles is E. User:Angr 20:52, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

In IPA, the pairing is æ (short) and ɛ (long) (like a backwards 3 if it doesnt show on your browser). But the article says it often becomes a diphthong in which case it would require two symbols. Jameswilson 22:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Its funny because i live close to Prudhoe Bay in Alaska...small world

[edit] Definite Article Usage

I have some questions about the omission of "the" in English.

1. Is it okay to say "outskirts of town" as opposed to "outskirts of the town" if you are talking about a specific town?
2. Is it okay to say "all eight bridges" instead of "all the eight bridges" if the area you are referring to has only eight bridges?
3. Is it okay to say "people sit on benches" instead of "people sit on the benches" if you are trying to convey that people are sitting on all the benches in an area, as opposed to sitting on only some of the benches?

Thanks!--Anakata 15:36, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

1. Yes.
2. Yes. In fact, I'd say "all the eight bridges" was incorrect.
3. It's okay to omit the article here, but I don't think either of them give the meaning you want. --Ptcamn 16:03, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

If you want to reference a specific town, a specific set of eight bridges, a specific set of benches, then you use "the". However, if in the context you were already talking about the specific place, then "the" could easily be omitted because it is already understood which one your were referring to. Use "the" in a sentence when you want that sentence to demonstrate that the subject is a specific one. - Rainwarrior 16:43, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

There are probably a few situations in which "outskirts of the town" would be neccesary, but I can't think of any examples offhand. In almost every case you could say "outskirts of town."

The combination of "all" and a number makes "the" unnecessary. You hardly ever hear "all the eight" except in poetry or old-style speech.

If you were talking about a recent visit to a park, and were describing the park, you would say "People were sitting on benches" if you were talking more about the general situation than any particuar aspect of it. If your focus were more on the benches, you'd say "People were sitting on the benches." If you were trying to say that all the benches had at least one person sitting on them, you would say "People were sitting on all the benches," or "... on every bench."

Linguofreak 18:58, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, good point. "All" does make "the" somewhat redundant, but not entirely. The variant "all of the" I think is much more common than you suggest as well. Compare "all of the horses are dead" with "all horses are dead". Sometimes you need to refer to a specific "all". - Rainwarrior 05:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Note that usage of "the" is diff in Brit English than American English. Specifically, Brits omit "the" in several places where Americans use "the", such as "I went to hospital" and "I came from university". However, I don't think these diffs pertain to the questions you asked. I'm an American, so perhaps a Brit would care to comment ? StuRat 04:06, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

A Brit says it would all depend on the context. Only use "the" if which particular hospital or university is significant.--Shantavira 08:53, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, its effectively the same distinction as "at home" v "in the house". Jameswilson 23:01, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RUEHC

I've seen the acronym "RUEHC" on a number of official telegrams to Washington D.C. (see, i.e. http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/67022.pdf). Any idea what it means? Usually it is in front of SECSTATE (Secretary of State), but sometimes not (i.e. RUEHC/DEPT OF LABOR). I can't figure out what it means after Googling around for a bit. --Fastfission 19:53, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. I also found RUEKJCS/JOINT STAFF and RUEHBK/AMEMBASSY BANGKOK, RUEHBJ/AMEMBASSY BEIJING, RUEHHI/AMEMBASSY HANOI, RUEHMO/AMEMBASSY MOSCOW and so on. So I'd guess the C is perhaps 'capital'. Henry^Flower 22:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, yeah, RUE or RUEH might mean recipient, or some sort of routing code? I've never seen anything from RUEHC, now that I think of it. --Fastfission 23:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure these are cable addresses, as in Telex. Google tells me you have to register those with the "Central Bureau of Registered Addresses," but I can find no trace of that organization. Anyway, cable addresses are up to ten letters, and it looks like the US goverment has registered a bunch of entries in the RUE(H) "domain". I would love to learn more. · rodii · 01:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)