Wikipedia:Reference desk archive/June 2004

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[edit] So why isn't it Columbia?

I was here a while ago and asked if it was true that Washington was originally going to be called Columbia. Someone answered yes, that is was true. Okay. So why didn't they name it Columbia? Did they give in to someone who wanted to name it Washington? Did they think that it might be confused with the District of Columbia? What? --SMWhat 04:53, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

It wasn't Washington they were going to call Columbia, it was the USA that people were proposing to give that name to. The District of Columbia was to be the US capital territory, containing the city of Washington. Compare to the contrast between Mexico City and México Distrito Federal or between Brussels and Brussel Hoofdstedelijk Gewest.
They didn't name the USA Columbia (which is probably for the best, it would be awfully confusing for Columbia to import cocaine from Columbia :^), but the name of the District of Columbia went unchanged. Diderot
I'm talking about Washington state. --SMWhat 00:44, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
As the person who initially answered the question (and a native of the state of Washington, born and bred in Seattle), I'll offer what I know here. There is a story (which I believe is at least semi-apocryphal) that they wanted to avoid confusion with the District of Columbia. Obviously this only makes sense if we assume people referred to DC by its full name at the time, rather than as "Washington" or "Washington DC". I think it likelier that there was widespread sentiment to honor George Washington (by the 1850s, they must have realized how hard it was to find a good president, no offense intended to Millard Fillmore and the rest) with a state, and that the new territory offered a possibility. I am sure there are books that go into this in more depth, but I have no idea what they are. Jwrosenzweig 16:08, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
As a former resident of the State, I seem to remember that the name change was a surprise to those in the NW. They only learned of it as a fait accompli. There was some skullduggery in Washington (DC! of course), in a congressional committee if my memory serves, but it doesn't on the question of motivation. I'm pretty sure it wasn't to avoid confusion with Columbia in SAmerica over illegal drug imports as cocaine had not been discovered as a distinct chemical at the time. Of course, everyone in the Andes knew about chewing the coca leaf with a little lime... ww 16:56, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Is Vietnam Part of Pacific ?

Is Vietnam Part of Pacific ?

Hi!

I would like to know whether Vietnam is still part of the Pacific? I read in one of your articles that:

Seventeen independent states are located in the Pacific: Australia, Fiji, Japan, Kiribati, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, New Zealand, Palau, Papua New Guinea, the Philippines, Samoa, Solomon Islands, Republic of China (Taiwan), Tonga, Tuvalu, and Vanuatu. Eleven of these nations have achieved full independence since 1960. The Northern Mariana Islands are self-governing with external affairs handled by the United States, and Cook Islands and Niue are in similar relationships with New Zealand. Also within the Pacific are the U.S. state of Hawaii and several island territories and possessions of Australia, Chile, France, Japan, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States.

If Vietnam is not part of the Pacific, where does Vietnam belong to?

Thanks, Gale

Looks to me like those are all island states. They are in the Pacific - e.g., surrounded by water. Vietnam is not an island, ergo, it is merely on the Pacific. Diderot 10:55, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
I would like to know whether Vietnam is still part of the Pacific? - I think it would be a hell of a task trying to move it. ;o) --bodnotbod 13:04, May 7, 2004 (UTC)
I always thought Vietnam belongs to Asia. At least, that's what I'm told in school. --Zinnmann 13:50, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
Here's how the CIA World Factbook describes it's location: Southeastern Asia, bordering the Gulf of Thailand, Gulf of Tonkin, and South China Sea, alongside China, Laos, and Cambodia [1] --bodnotbod 17:08, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] pounds 10?

Hi,

why do we write '£10' but say ten 'pounds' ie why do write the symbol for pounds before the amount and then say the opposite? Thank you michelle

Good question. I don't know. But it's interesting to note that units of measurement (ie 10mm, 10m etc) and weight (10lbs) go after. I hope someone knows the answer. --bodnotbod 16:48, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

And this is by no means universal for currency, either. Consider the US Cent symbol (¢).

But interestingly not the US dollar symobl - $10. '£10', but 10p for ten pence. I can't explain it... Mark Richards 18:38, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
I'll take a guess that the convention came about so that if someone with sloppy handwriting wrote $10 or 10¢, people could tell whether the squiggle with a vertical line through it was a $ or ¢ by whether it came before or after the number. 4.22.114.34 21:37, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
Good work 4.22.114.34: If you have the symbol for smaller denominations on the right, then it's intuitive to put the larger denomination on the left. Otherwise you'd have the possibility of things like 200.55$c or 178.34£p. Sort of.--bodnotbod 01:36, May 8, 2004 (UTC)
On the other hand, the Portuguese escudo was written as e.g. 200$, and in the days when they still had centavos, 200$50. -- Arwel 09:52, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
Ah, yes - I hadn't considered the symbol going in the middle. --bodnotbod 12:46, May 8, 2004 (UTC)


Interesting question. i wondered about that myself. german might be interesting too look at, as things changed here, at least according to my own perception: In old, pre-WW2 documents, one always reads, say "10 M" ("M" for "Reichsmark"), and also in post-war Germany, "10 DM", "10,00 DM" or (often) "10,-- DM". But then, on most forms, where you were supposed to fill in an amount, it is written "DM ______". While most people continue to write the currency symbol on the right-hand side, its on the left in most documents like invoices etc. With the Euro now, it's similar. Maybe somebody German who's a bit older than me could comment? Sanders muc 14:27, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
In Spain we write the currency symbol at the end as well: 1000 pts, 6,00 €, 6 €, and AFAIK it's the same in France. I wonder if it's a convention used only in the English-speaking countries. It's quite an interesting question, that's for sure ;) Sabbut 17:04, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
It could be linguistic habit. I've noticed that in Canada it looks like English speakers write "five dollars" as $5.00 while French speakers write 5.00$ -- Arwel 14:13, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] What Rhymes with "Julia"

I'm writing a Clerihew for a friend of mine. What rhymes with "Julia"? Right now I have "fool ya", but i'm trying not to be too insulting... - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 20:29, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

Julio, like Julio Iglesias. Its not perfect, but close enough. Sam Spade 20:43, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
Rhyme Dictionary. --Menchi 20:45, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
The rhyming dictionary provides gibberish words; when you click on them, it says that they're not real. Can anyone think of any real words? If not, two words that make sense? - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 20:49, May 7, 2004 (UTC)
Does she have another name? Mark Richards 21:39, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
Since you are rhyming a name have you considered using another name? Tia Carerra comes to mind. What is the sentence you are rhyming? Think of Mambo #5. - Tεxτurε 21:45, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
I presume this is some bizarre courtship ritual? ;) Mark Richards 21:46, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
Actually- I have to give a toast at her wedding rehearsal dinner. I thought a funny poem would be good, but I just can't rhyme her name.
the rymezone link given above by Menchi is rather useful. If you search for words ending in lia it lists 209. such as Thulia, Sterculia & Hyperdulia.Scraggy4 21:47, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
Yes, 'Black Maria', 'North Korea', 'Diego Garcia', 'pizzeria', 'tortilla' ! Mark Richards 21:53, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
abulia, Apulia... - Nunh-huh 23:23, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
Ummm, Sterculia, Thulia, Hyperdulia, and Apulia all seem like gibberish to me still. I would prefer something more accessible (as the audience will be pretty wide). I think that "peculiar" is the closest I've seen to a decent rhyme that is still a recognizable word. Keep in mind that he rhyme doesn't have to be spot on (as is the nature of Clerihews), but it should be somewhat clever. Anybody else have any ideas? - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 03:01, May 8, 2004 (UTC)

Well, there is a perfectly good Spanish word (occasionally used in English-language contexts): "tertulia", a type of social gathering, usually of intellectuals or artists. -- Jmabel 04:50, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

You mentioned fool ya. In a similar vein, and in keeping with your request for pleasing a broad audience: at school ya..., in a swimming pool ya..., you're so cool, ya... make me wanna drool, ya blah blah blah - which wasn't like you at all, ya.... Lots of that sort of thing would get you out of a hole, I think. --bodnotbod 12:52, May 8, 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure how you spell it, but "bulia" (as in "bulia base," used when making soup) is a real English word that rhymes perfectly... try that. Krupo 04:22, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Actually, that's bouillabaisse and it's all one word. --WhiteDragon 13:42, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] taken from Talk:Abu Ghraib (prison)

photo CD request...if anyone got this CD with the 1000 or so photos, i'll pay to acquire it. Please contact me (xah@xahlee.org). The photos will be used for documentation purpose. Xah Lee P0lyglut 22:41, 2004 May 6 (UTC)

[edit] Who Was Karl Josef Weinmair(1906-1944)?

from the Pump

Who was Karl Josef Weinmair? He did some sketchings that have political cartoon-like qualities. I am interested in detailed biographical information.

[edit] Sabbath days

I today learned from the Sabbath entry, all about the split between Christians and Jews over whether Saturday or Sunday should be the day of rest/Lord's day etc which had been something about which I'd often wondered, but it doesn't explain how the Muslims ended up with Friday. As I understand it, Islam and Judaism come from the same cultural background with Abraham and the rest, so can anyone explain the divergence in the choice of the day of rest between those two religions? adamsan 21:34, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

It's not quite as simple as "Christians vs. Jews". Seventh-day Adventists (and the far less numerous Seventh Day Baptists) have their Sabbath on Saturday. -- Jmabel 23:20, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
Islamic days run from sunrise to sunrise; Jewish days run from sunset to sunset. Islamic Fridays and Jewish Saturdays actually overlap. In general, I don't think Muslims consider Friday a "Sabbath". - Nunh-huh 23:26, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
OK, I've now looked at the entry on Shabbat which asserts that the Muslim day of rest is 'based on Shabbat' but on a Friday. It doesn't explain further however. adamsan 08:05, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Astronomical midnight

How does one calculate the astronomical midnight for any given location? I don't know of any strict definition for astronomical midnight, but one might suppose that is when the sun is closest to nadir. arj 10:28, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

This is a subject I know nothing about, but I've Googled the term and this seems as though it might be fertile reading for someone who uderstands this stuff: Moon Data. It's broken English, but if you know the terms used it may be useful. The first few Google hits are unenlightening so this would make an EXCELLENT article if we get enough info to create - at least - a stub. --bodnotbod 15:43, May 9, 2004 (UTC)

The obvious definition would be: the point in time exactly in the middle of two consecutive passings of the sun through the meridian (astronomy). The passing of the sun through the meridium is by definition 12:00 noon local solar time and hence midnight 12:00 a.m. (or 0h00min, as astronomers like to write times) local solar time. To calculate from UTC to local solar time, do the following: Add (24h/360o=) 4 minutes per degree of longitude to get your mean local time and then change to actual solar time by adding a correcting value that gives you the difference between actual and mean solar time as function of the calendar date. This correcting value is given in tables and known as Equation of time (see there for details). HTH. Sanders muc 14:36, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

No, there's another more obvious definition. The sun rises in the east, reaches its peak altitude when it crosses the meridian (due south) at astronomical noon, and then sets in the west. But the next morning, it's back in the east again... how did it get there? Well, it must have crossed the meridian a second time, in the opposite direction, on its way back... except that happened invisibly "underground", and it was a due-north "meridian". Reverse north and south for in the previous if you're in the southern hemisphere. The underground, "northern meridian" crossing would be the moment of astronomical midnight, when the Sun is closest to the nadir.
So astronomical midnight would not necessarily be exactly halfway between two occurrences of astronomical noon, for the same reason that two occurrences of astronomical noon are not exactly 24 hours apart, due to the difference between actual and mean solar time, which is the difference between a sundial and a clock (see Equation of time).
-- Curps 17:02, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
Of course, your way of phrasing it is more precise. I realized the imprecission myself but was to lazy to reword. So, to keep it succinct, let's define: Midnight is the time of the lower culmination of the sun.

[edit] Historical Infinitive

My dictionary defines historical infinitive as "the present infinitive used with a subject nominative as a finite verb in place of a past indicative." I know what each of those words means individually, but I can't conceive of how this construction would be used. Could you provide an example?

"Historical infinitive"? Not "historical indicative"? -- Jmabel 02:10, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Google gives some examples in Latin and Greek. This page also suggests that it was used as a replacement for the imperfect indicative by some classical authors. I'm not sure English supports it but I would suggest (with plenty of commas to aid the context): "I, to flee, (appeared indecorous)' in place of 'I was fleeing (which appeared indecorous)'. adamsan 08:39, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Probably a simpler example of the historical infinitive: "to have fled." In English infinitives use "to" but "to" also indicates intent (which would be subjunctive in Latin & Greek & easily distinguished from infinitive) and I think your example confuses them (or else confuses me). Though they are verb forms, infinitives can have a function almost like a noun phrase. Alteripse 19:12, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Degradation of Uracil to Cytosine

Where can I find more information regarding this, in the context of the stability of RNA compared to that of DNA? EB doesn't mention this in their article about Uracil, and neither does Little Alberts. taion 09:24, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "Distilling Potassium and Sodium"--when Philo Farnsworth did it a fire broke out on contact with water?

b's'd Greetings.

I read in a biography of Philo T. Farnsworth that he "distilled potassium and sodium", and moisture seeped in and started a fire.

Could somebody please explain the procedure, and what is accomplished by it, how a fire could result, and how the fire could be put out if not with water?

Many thanks.

Elise Teitelbaum eliseteitelbaum@yahoo.com

I don't know how they "distil potassium and sodium" but I'm not surprised that a fire resulted if moisture got into contact with it -- metallic sodium and potassium are extremely reactive with water; one of the highlights of my school chemistry lessons was seeing my chemistry teacher drop a small piece of sodium into an open container of water to demonstrate exactly how reactive it it -- the metal literally explodes across the surface of the water. The metals are usually stored in oil. -- Arwel 10:00, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
I'll never forget teaching practice with a group of 13 year old kids. The protecol is a piece the size of a grain of rice - Everyone ignores that. I put it a bit of potassium the size of a small split pea. It looked very pretty skidding around on the surface of the water with it's lilac flame. Then I made the error of allowing the kids to egg me on "go on miss, put a bigger bit in". I put in a piece the size of a cherry. It exploded with a huge bang, spraying water everywhere. The potassium shot up and hit the ceiling, leaving a burn mark, then fell back onto the bench leaving another burn mark. Fortunately we were all behind a safety screen, and wearing goggles. The pupils thought it was great, but I had to swear them all to secrecy, the lab was brand new. If you want to see what happens when you put a really big but of sodium in water see sodium party (broadband only the movie files are huge). theresa knott 10:33, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
That's a wonderful site! My story of accidentally redecorating the school chemistry lab involved heating some substance in a test tube which we were supposed to agitate rapidly. Unfortunately I didn't agitate it quite enough, so it went "whoof!" and produced a pretty circular pattern on the ceiling which was still there when I left four years later.... Arwel 13:02, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
It's nice to leave your mark on the place, and carving your name in a tree is so unexciting. theresa knott 13:24, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Damn, my science teacher was boring enough to take us outside to do those demonstrations, though there was a rumour around that students at a neighbouring school stole the jar from the science lab and threw it into a toilet. (AFAIR, they heard the same rumour about my school). -- Jim Regan 20:02, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Total land area.

Brief and to the point sir. I understand from this site that it is around 150,000,000 square kilometres

[edit] Donkey Kong Entry

In your "Donkey Kong" entry you state that the "Donkey Kong" character from the videogame "Donkey Kong Country" is generally associated with Donkey Kong Jr., not the original Donkey Kong. However, if you read the INSTRUCTION MANUAL to the "Donkey Kong Country" game, you will find that the character "Cranky Kong" was the original Donkey Kong who "fought Mario in many of his own games". It also clearly states that Cranky Kong is the new Donkey Kong's grandfather. This means that the Donkey Kong from the "Donkey Kong Country" game is actually Donkey Kong III, son of Donkey Kong Jr., and grandson of the original Donkey Kong (now called Cranky Kong).

Peace.

Italic text

Well get stuck in and set the record straight! I'd always thought the original Donkey Kong was a mistranslation of Monkey Kong adamsan 15:29, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
No, it's not as simple as that. I've read the origin in a book I have, but I can't rmember what it was now. --bodnotbod 17:44, May 10, 2004 (UTC)
I seem to recall hearing that "Donkey" was used because the person who named the game didn't speak English as a native language and thought it meant "stubborn". Actually, the Donkey Kong entry confirms this. LuckyWizard 05:08, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Becoming a fashion designer

Hi,I am a student at Pattengill Middle School and we're doing a project on what we are planning to be when we get older.I,out of many students want to be a fashion designer.I would like to know how does one become a fashion designer,and what is expected of the employee or the designer? I would trully appreciate if you would write back.


Sincerely,
Felisha P.

Well, it's a very difficult business to get into. You would probably need to go to college to study design, though I suppose you might become an apprentice to a taylor or dressmaker and learn like that. Either way you need to know the materials you will be working with very well. Then you'd need a flair for design. You need to come up with things that other people want to buy. I think most colleges have showcases of their students best work, where you can show off your designs. One of the big fashion houses may like what they see and employ you. Alternatively, you can start your own business. You'd need to rent a shop (very expensive!) and produce some goods to stock the shop with. If people like your designs and if your goods are well made, you could have plenty of customers and become rich and famous. On the other hand, you could struggle for years never making any money at all.

I hope this helps a bit, and best wishes theresa knott 14:48, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

If you have a local university or college have a look to see if they have a website with an Art & Design Department. You should look at, what we in Britain call, a prospectus. This will tell you what qualifications you need to get onto the course you want to take. At any rate, you will be wanting to improve your drawing - so be sure to take classes at school which will teach you such skills. Which country are you in? Which area? If you don't mind telling us we may be able to track down local education institutions and link to relevant information. See also Fashion design --bodnotbod 17:53, May 10, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] What's the difference between allenes and cumulated dienes?

What's the difference between allenes and cumulated dienes? From the description, it looks like they're the same thing. Anyone know enough chemistry to clear this one up? I ask because diene seems to be poorly worded. (See talk:diene.) Grendelkhan 13:58, 2004 May 10 (UTC)

Will respond on talk:diene. Gentgeen 10:37, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Flowers

Hello, I've got three unidentified flowers here. Please inform me on my talk page if you know the name of at least one of them.

Thank you in advance, --webkid 15:30, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

The middle one is a passion flower. theresa knott 15:37, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
the first one looks like an Iris to me. Thunderbolt16 22:11, May 12, 2004 (UTC)

The flowers:

Image:Unidentified Flower 02.jpg
Image:Unidentified Flower 01.jpg
Image:Unidentified Flower 03.jpg


[edit] Mediterranean Sea

Many years ago, I read an (illustrated) article about the formation of the Mediterranean Sea. There was a large illustration of the falls which fell over the (now called) Straits of Magellan. Can you direct me to a similar article about the formation of this sea? Thank you very much.

The Straits of Magellan are near Cape Horn, do you mean the Straits of Gibraltar? Try Googling for that and 'waterfall' adamsan 16:46, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Are you sure you're not thinking about the formation of the Bosporus (Black Sea) some thousands of years ago? I've never heard about a waterfall in the Straits of Gibraltar, and from what little I know I doubt there ever was one. --Smack 23:36, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
According to Flood#Significant_prehistorical_floods and Deluge (mythology), both the Bosporus and the Straits of Gibraltar were the host of immense ancient waterfalls. LuckyWizard 05:14, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] What are the citizenship requirements?

What are the citizenship requirements for taking a seat in the US House of Representatives?

The requirement, as I understand it, is that one must be a U.S. citizen for seven years prior to taking office -- see [2] Article 1, Section 2, Clause 2. :-) Was this all you needed? Jwrosenzweig 20:03, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Note that you must also be at least 25 years of age and be an inhabitant of the state in which you are chosen. - Centrx 22:16, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] What are the various levels of drawings associated with the manufacturing process?

I understand that a Level 4 drawing depicts jigs and fixtures that facilitate ease, accuracy, consistency and efficiency in manufacturing. Please tell me what all the levels of drawings for an item to be manufactured are.

Thank you.

[edit] what are the references that you have about the article on Hitler

Anon

If this is for citation purposes, see Wikipedia:Citing Wikipedia. If you want to know where the info came from, why not look at the page's history and ask some of the contributors directly on their Talk pages? If you want to know about books on Hitler, there is a whole section at the bottom of his article devoted to books about him. Jwrosenzweig 22:04, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia, as you may have noticed, doesn't provide references for each and every edit - there are too many contributors, relying on far too many resources. Thus, there really isn't any way other than those mentioned by Jwrosenzweig. -- Itai 16:55, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Contoid

A contoid, according to Merriam-Webster's Third New International Dictionary Unabridged on CD-ROM, v3, is "a speech sound of a phonetic rather than phonemic classification that includes most sounds traditionally treated as consonants and that excludes those (as English \y\, \w\, \r\, and \h\) which like vowels are characterized by the escape of air from the mouth over the center of the tongue without oral friction". I have looked up phonetic above to find out what it means, but to no avail: the dictionary does not define it in a way that it would make sense in the above use. What does phonetic mean here?

Maybe you should try following the trail from Wikipedia: contoid (or the List of phonetics topics). Phonetic here means in relation to phones - the use of phones in a language, as phonemics relates to phonemes. -- Jim Regan 00:45, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Hindu astrology: Shifting to a new house

Dear Panditji

I have been visiting your site since last month everyday, I find it an extremely useful source of Vaastu which helps a lot of people in learning the real science behind vaastu which other sites dont even mention about. Your site is THE BEST SITE i have come across.

Panditji I have a question to ask you. We live in Dubai and planning to shift from a rented house to a rented villa, currently the villa work is going on, its a new villa its a north-east entrance, it would take another 20 days to complete atleast. My question to you is would it be wise to shift to the new house on May 24. Is it a good month as well as a good day? Is the Shukra weak at this point in time.

If 24th May isnt good month would it be advisable to stay on the 19th of may in the house for a night and cook a little and some back to the old house and then shift once the work is complete. if not 19th of may which other day would you advise.

We are in Jewellery business which involve sale of gold and diamonds. As diamonds relate to Shukra we donnot want to shift to the new house if it isnt good. Please advise, we would really appreciate if you can give us your advise.

Awaiting for your reply

Thank you very much. Regards Heemanshu Waya

Hmm...this seems to be a question about Hindu astrology. That's all the help I can provide.--Samuel J. Howard 03:02, May 11, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Norman Ritchie

I am looking for biographical information on a cartoonist named Norman Ritchie AKA William Norman Ritchie. Mr Ritchie was a Canadian born in 1865 or 67 and died 1948 He created cartoons for the Boston Post in its hey-day, 1901 to 1940. One source I consulted has 800 of his original cartoons but no biographical information. Thank you for any information or direction to an authoritative source. Paul Liebold pliebold@earthlink.net

[edit] DVD Recorder and Player

When playing a DVD recently the DVD would hesitate momentarily occaisionally. I noticed that it said on the cover that double layering could cause the DVD to hestitate. Do you know why it happens and is there anything I can do to stop it? My machine also records and the same thing occours when playing DVDs I have recorded on both my machine and others, both R and RW. Thanks for your help.

When the DVD laser has to go from layer 1 to layer 2 it needs to momentarily reset itself, which causes a slight hesitation. There is no way to prevent this (except NOT using double layering), but some players have caching of a sorts which bypasses this. Anárion 10:18, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Snakes

How to idenify snakes in Michigan?

You could start by describing the snake you want to identify, if possible with a photograph, on the Talk:Snake page. ;) Mark Richards 16:35, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
Or put "Michigan Snakes" into Google and write an article (240 hits w/ parenthesis; 72,400 without) --Neonstarlight 03:52, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
Or go to Wikibooks:Dichotomous Key:Reptilia, but the snake part isn't there yet, so again, you'd need to follow Neonstarlight's instructions and help that project. Gentgeen 01:10, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Joan of Kent

I am researching the life of Joan of Kent. Where did you get the exact date of her birth from please?Thank you. Penny.lawne@btinternet.com

You can check to see the edit history of the article, and find out who added that information. It appears to have been Deb - you could ask her where she got it. Mark Richards 16:39, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
I have asked Deb. Mark Richards 16:43, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
I got it from my usual source for such data - Alison Weir's very useful reference book, "Britain's Royal Families", which I find well laid out and generally reliable. However, I'm afraid I don't know which of the hundreds of sources she quotes originally provided it. Deb 21:01, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] King Umberto I of Italy and Olive Trees

I am trying to find out if King Umberto I of Italy prohibited the felling of olive trees on Italian land. What year was the law and does it still exist today?

Thank you

[edit] Better bound on Cayley's theorem?

Cayley's theorem says that a group G with n elements is isomorphic to some subgroup of S(n), the group of permutations of n elements. However, there might also be m < n such that G is isomorphic to S(m). For example, C6, the cyclic group on 6 elements, is isomorphic to the subgroup of S(5) generated by the permutation (1 2)(3 4 5).

What is known about the lower bound on possible values of m?

[edit] Weight on Other Planets

From the Help Desk Many years ago I was told, say a pound of matter, here on Earth ,would wight many more pounds on a bigger planit , If this is so, what effect would landing on a bigger planit have on us. Can we land on a big planit?

paul te groen salem oregon ptegroen@earthlink.net

(I hope you dont mind me asking this ? on this page no one ever says anything about this so Id like to know)

Of course we don't mind you asking! I've checked and we don't seem to have an article that answers this question, so we need to think about adding this info in somewhere. Probable here I suppose
Anyway to answer your question. You certainly do have a different weight on other planets. For example on Jupiter you would weigh more than twice as much. Now since no one has ever actually been to Jupiter we can't know for sure, but the closest thing we have done here on Earth is subject pilots to "G forces" when the execute sharp turns. How much G force a pilot can take depends on their physical makeup, with shorter stockily built pilots fairing better than tall ones (women generally do better than me because they are shorter) but sooner or later the heart has trouble pumping the "heavier" blood up to the head. This starves the head of oxygen and the pilot "blacks out". So for very massive planets, i don't think we could ever land on themtheresa knott 09:07, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Also, Jupiter doesn't have a solid surface to stand on. The "surface" you see is just the top of the clouds, even though this is the place for which the gravitational pull is calculated. If you dive into the planet, the atmospheric pressure increases until the hydrogen gas becomes a liquid, and possibly solid at the core, but this would be a very unpleasant place to stand. The Earth is the largest planet in our solar system with a solid surface to stand on. GUllman 20:51, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

I have added a simple table / list on weight with each of the planets, but don't actually know what a kilo mass weighs on each one - could someone go and fill it in, and perhaps link from planet? Thanks, Mark Richards 20:12, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Well a kilo weighs 9.81N on Earth so it seems to be me that all we have to do is multiply all the numbers by 9.81 to get the weights. (I'll do it later in order to give people the chance to correct me if my reasoning is wrong) theresa knott 11:37, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
When people talk about their "weight", what they actually mean is their mass (in kg or lbs.), which is what they measure when they step on a scale. You don't have to multiply all the numbers in the table by 9.8 to get newtons because all the numbers would be proportional to each other -- so they can be dimensionless numbers. Just label the column "multiply by this number to get your weight on other planets", with Earth=1.0, and they'll get the right number whether they're measuring in kg or newtons. GUllman 19:36, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
On the contrary, a scale usually measures weight, not mass. To measure mass, one uses a balance. Your mass in kilograms is the same on every planet; your weight (in newtons or pounds) is not.

Well, I think that people know their mass on other planets, that should stay the same, it was their weight they were interested in. Mark Richards 19:14, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] painting whitehouse

how often is the whitehouse painted, how much paint is needed.

According to this_site, the White House was painted 42 times during its first 200 years, and then 20 years ago, those 42 layers of paint were removed so that the surface could be restored and painted again. According to this_site, it takes 570 gallons of paint to cover the exterior of the building. GUllman 22:43, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Word for drama within drama

Is there a word which would cover a play within a play (eg Midsumer Nights Dream), Tv-shows-within TV-shows (eg the Simpsons and Itchy and Scratchy), Framing stories as dramatic techniques, radio shows that have radio shows within them etc etc? This is about trying to rename and edit Show-within-a-show to talk generally about the dramatic techniques, and not just about its use on TV. Thanks! Mark Richards 15:18, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Hmmmm, metadrama is the closest I can come (or perhaps metafiction), but I don't think it's quite narrow enough -- it seems to encompass more than simply the show-within-show device. Perhaps you've a good dictionary handy (I don't) to look at definitions of those words, especially metadrama? Good luck! Jwrosenzweig 16:35, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
"play within a play" is as close an accepted phrase as I'm aware exists, even when the outer work isn't technically a play. Not that it's proof of much, but that phrase gets a stalwart 10,900 googles, "metadrama" a grovelling 678, and "drama within a drama" a positively no-soup-for-you 86. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 23:15, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
I initially thought 'frame tale', but according to that article, that's something rather different. An example that you could try to search for is the murder play in Act III (right?) of Hamlet.
The technical term for that is "mise en abîme". It is a French expression originally, but I have seen it used in English works too. You can see an definition online, too.

[edit] Wikipedia mailing list

I think it'd be a really cool feature (and so easy to set up) to have a mailing list in which a random Wikipedia page (like the featured ones on the frontpage, for example) was posted plaintext or html to the subscribers once a day. Almost like dictionary.com's word of the day system. Only better :)

I think many people would be interested in this. Hell, I'd do it myself, but I don't think it'd be as a good as it would as a wikimedia supported service.

Yes indeed. This idea has been moved several times (whether it's a random page, the main page's article of the day, a most-requested page, etc.). The forthcoming version of the software will support RSS (and I think ATOM) syndication, which could also be used. I think the reason we don't have this now is simply that no-one has gotten around to writing the (probably very modestly sized) chunk of code that would be needed to bridge mediawiki page into majordomo. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 18:32, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Or more likely - to be somewhat pedantic - bridge it into GNU Mailman, which seems to have essentially superseded majordomo. - IMSoP 14:08, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Where to find "Top Ten Hits" of a particular week in a particular year

In the 1960's record stores would publish the "top ten hits" of the week. I am trying to find some from 1965 and 1966 and 1967. If anybody can help me find these items, I would be greatful.

C. Keeley dkeeley@erols.com

Which chart, in which country? I can find fair amount of UK chart data if that's any good. --Auximines 11:33, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

Or try 1966 in music and related pages. --bodnotbod 16:39, May 17, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] 'IY' in Middle East

I was looking at a map made by the UN, which has a region in between Kuwait, Iraq and Saudi Arabia that's labelled "IY". What does that stand for? Surely not some Japanese long-haired anime guy. --Menchi 11:19, 13 May 2004 (UTC)


Can you direct us to the map? Mark Richards 15:55, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
It's not online. --Menchi 21:55, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
A guess (only a guess) would be that the land you refer to was the infamous disputed "neutral zone", which all three nations laid claim to part of for the longest time. I have no idea why "IY" would designate it. But if you look at older maps of that region, you'll always see one or two diamond shaped "neutral zones" along the border. HTH. Jwrosenzweig 17:05, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
Why "older maps" only? --Menchi 21:55, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
Older maps only, because the Neutral Zone was partitioned and divided between the surrounding countries in a series of secret treaties sometime in the 70s or 80s, I believe. For a while, some maps persisted in displaying the NZs because the exact provisions of the treaties were not public, but that practice seems to have ceased (whether because the treaties are now public, or because we've settled on our best guess, I do not know). Jwrosenzweig 16:27, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
IY is for Iraq-Saudi Arabian Neutral Zone [3] but don't ask me what the "Y" stands for, maybe they couldn't find another letter. -- Edcolins 21:37, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
Yes, you must be right. --Menchi 21:55, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Bev Bevan's date of birth

Does anybody know for certain the date of birth of Bev Bevan (drummer for Electric Light Orchestra)? Different sources seem to have different dates. Thanks. --Auximines 11:30, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

For certain? - I think you'll have to email his mother ;o) --bodnotbod 15:37, May 19, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] CHICAGO FIRE

IS THERE ANYONE THAT WOULD KNOW ABOUT THE RUINS FROM THE CHICAGO FIRE? WHAT KINDS OF THINGS WERE FOUND? I HAVE FOUND ALOT OF JEWELRY, MILK BOTTLES, OTHER BOTTLES, TRINKETS...WOULD THEY BE OF ANY VALUE

It's hard to know whether the items you have found have any value, which fire are you talking about? Do you know how old the items you have are? What sort of condition are they in? Mark Richards 21:25, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
Probably the 1871 Great Chicago Fire. LuckyWizard 05:17, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Old Covered Spring House.

I am trying to find out information about the Old Covered Spring House that is located in the Fort Bennett Park in Arlington, Virginia. I would like to find a picture of it and have a little information about the history of it.

Thank you Stephen Hosmer sh34g@nih.gov

[edit] Differences between Malayalam and Tamil

What are the differences between Malayalam and Tamil?

I speak Tamil (natively) and Telugu but not Malayalam.

That's too little to ask and too much to answer. They are obviously two different languages, though they have common roots. Malayalam is believed to have developed from a dialect of Tamil called Koduntamil or Malaithamil (literally Tamil of the mountains), spoken by the people around the hilly ranges bordering Kerala and Tamil Nadu states. But like other Dravidian languages, and unlike Tamil, it has borrowed heavily from the Brahmic script. Unlike Tamil, it has conjunct consonants and aspirated and voiced stops. For example, it has four gutturals, four nasals and so on (each pronounced with varying degrees of stress.) Malayalam is believed to have matured sometime around 16th century as a distinct language with the advent of people like Thunjathu Ezhuthachan (who incidentally authored Narayaneeyam - the ballad sung in praise of Vishnu in his 10 avatars. It is more influenced by Sanskrit than any other Dravidian language. Malayalam is the only language in the world apart from Tamil to share the retroflex rzh sound. (Marathi coming close with the hard la). That's as much as I can say from my limited knowledge. Chancemill 17:00, May 17, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Loch and lough

Is there a difference between a loch and a lough? -- Edcolins 21:21, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

I think that both reffer to a long narrow inland body of water, but that loch is Scotish while Lough is Irish. Mark Richards 21:27, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
Then there is a mistake in the lough article? --Edcolins 21:34, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
Both simply refer to a nontrivial body of water. There's no restriction on the shape (Loch Lomond is a big wobbly triangle), and they don't have to be inland - Loch Fyne, for example, is a salty inlet of the sea (it's a fjord). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:51, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
Interesting - can you throw any light on whether they are the same word in different languages? Mark Richards 21:53, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
Scots Gaelic and Irish Gaelic are very closely related languages and have lots of similar words. Scots, by contrast, is a germanic language that's pretty similar to english, fresian, and lower-saxon (and utterly unlike the gaelic). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 22:15, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
Since no-one else has noted it, I'd like to point out that the words are pronounced the same. -- Jim Regan 22:54, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Possibly, although I wouldn't swear to it! Mark Richards 21:37, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
Is Nessie to be found into the Lough Ness? (Lough Ness returns 162 items at Google...) -- Edcolins 21:41, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
It's "Loch Ness". Scotland doesn't use "Lough". -- Jim Regan 22:54, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure it's just a language issue, there is no difference in meaning. I'd go ahead and make the change if I were you! Mark Richards 21:48, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
Indeed. It's the same word in scots gaelic and irish gaelic, but the two are transliterated slightly differently. There are no loughs in scotland, and only one lake (it's a long story). Loch is used in scotland and generally in northern ireland, although Lough is used by some there too (I suspect for political reasons). Nessie is (or isn't) in Loch Ness. Lough should be a redirect to a (slightly expanded) loch. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:59, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
It might be a political reason now, but to really over simplify (crossing my fingers that this doesn't offend anyone, but this isn't the place for an in-depth discussion of the issues): Loyalists are descended from Scottish settlers, who would therefore use "Loch", while Nationalists are descended from the original Irish inhabitants, who would use "Lough". "Loch" is probably the original spelling; Irish (Gaeilge) was modernised with the creation of the Republic (again, a simplification - it mightn't have been the Republic at the time :) to unify the main dialects; Gaelic has less dialect issues, and so has remained the same. -- Jim Regan 22:54, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Scottish Loch = Irish Lough = English lake. Simple as that. --Auximines 11:16, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
Not so simple since lochs and loughs can be "large fjord-like inlets" while lakes cannot... --Edcolins 21:15, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
From looking at the OED, it looks like they are of course, very similar and nearly interchangeable. The Scottish-English loch, "lake" or the abovementioned inlet, is etymologically from from the loch of the foreign languages Gaelic and Irish. That is, they are the same word. From that same Irish loch comes the Anglo-Irish lough and is "equivalent to the Scottish loch". Another lough, a "lake" or "pool", is also = Scottish loch, and comes from Middle English is "perhaps" a "representation" of the Old Northumbrian luh but may perhaps be from the Welsh llwch. So says the venerable OED. - Centrx 22:43, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Another Random British Peerage Quetsion

If someone is named, say, John Crypt, and he receives a life peerage, he'd be known as John Crypt, Baron Crypt of London. When I link to his name, should I link John Crypt, Baron Crypt of London or Lord London? I prefer the latter, but just making sure. cryptfiend64 01:36, May 14, 2004 (UTC)

  • I'd put it in John Crypt and mention his titles in the lead section of the article. If his titles are more commonly known, make a redirect to John Crypt from those pages. - MGM 11:34, May 14, 2004 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Other Non-royal names, guideline #5 reads:
  • Life peers (ie, people who have peerages awarded exclusively for their lifetime but who neither inherit it nor pass it on to anyone else)1 are generally mentioned by their personal name not title, because among other reasons a life peerage is often awarded at the end of a career, while the individual holding them may be far more widely known though their personal name, so use George Robertson, not Lord Robertson.
Gentgeen 11:52, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
I think the question was about how the link should appear rather than the title of the article it linked to. Clearly it depends on the article and the context. If in the midst of a sentence you want to refer to Lord Woolf, then refer to "Lord Woolf". In a list of Lord Chief Justices, however, it would be preferable to have "Harry Woolf, Baron Woolf", or whatever his full name and title is. 81.153.42.54 00:49, 23 May 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Phrase Marker

According to my dictionary, a phrase marker is "a representation of the immediate constituent structure of a linguistic construction." Could you provide an example? Would a phrase marker for the sentence "I gave the bird a seed" be divided into subject/predicate; verb phrases and noun phrases; subject, indirect object, and direct object; or what? Perhaps my first guess is the most likely, as I believe the immediate constituents of the sentence to be [I] [gave the bird a seed].

According to generative grammar (and confirmed by a Google search), a phrase marker is a diagram representing the structure of a sentence. So I think your dictionary is wrong to say "immediate". Gdr 16:18, 2004 May 14 (UTC)

[edit] help with 1940s chair

i am looking for an image of what a stackable wooden chair may look like! i have to recreate an 1940s village hall for the school i work at and its proving impossiable. where they wooden with metal legs maybe?

let me know on mooneykatie@hotmail.com

I can remember them from the 1950s. Our elementary school would set up obviously aged wooden chairs in the gymnasium for assemblies, cub scout and PTA meetings. I can describe them but can't find a picture. The chairs, including legs, were almost entirely wooden (with metal hardware of course). All the wooden pieces were flat or rectangular, so that there was little or no curvature of the back or seat. The seat folded down, pulling the front legs out. You had to be careful not to pinch your fingers. They were almost completely flat when folded, so they were stackable on a wheeled flat cart. They felt uncomfortably hard to a child's bottom. Good luck. Alteripse 17:36, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Bad smell in Cellar/ Impregnation of concrete

I've talked to someone who used some sort of chemical to stop the walls of their concrete cellar of crumbling 5 years ago. However, they have problems with a bad smell in this cellar. Could this come from the chemical and hwo would such a chemical smell?

Also when would the smell be worst. In a moist or dry environment?

Sincerely, MGM 11:38, May 14, 2004 (UTC)

Could you identify the chemcal? and what does the cellar smell like. How long after the application of the chemical did the small start? The easy answer is "yes, the chemical could be related to the smell", but with more information we might get a better answer. When it would be worst is dependant on the chemical, though when it's hot should be worse than when it's cold. Gentgeen 11:58, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
How old is the concrete? While, obviously, speculating on the structure of your cellar is foolishness on stilts, I am sceptical about the value of chemical treatment of old and crumbling concrete. Depending on how bad the spalling (crumbling) is, you should certainly investigate physically reinforcing it. Mark Richards 15:26, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
It occurs to me that this chemical may be a layer of sealant that was put on to stop moisture getting at the concrete. Not that that helps your question, of course... Mark Richards 18:16, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

The chemical in question is an unknown. It was meant to stop particles from the wall coming off. (It worked). The smell itself can be described as 'spicy', 'sharp' and 'solvent-like' (i.e. terpentine). Could a combination of stored food and cleaning products be the cause maybe? MGM 07:14, May 18, 2004 (UTC)

I don't know what the chemical would be, but it is a little disturbing that it is still off-gassing this much after 5 years. I would be a little leery of storing food next to something that is smelling like that. I assume that the poster has isolated the smell to be coming from the treated concrete. Honestly, my feeling about this would be to get an engineer to come and look at it (that should cost less than 100USD) and probably scrape it off, scrape back the crumbling concrete with a hard wire brush until you get to concrete that is in good condition, then either re-cover it with a good quality cement, or, depending on how bad it is, brick it up then backpour cement behind the bricks - that would be a pretty permanent solution to your smell and crumbling problems, but might be overkill! Mark Richards 17:48, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Richard Farina / Fariña ?

Before I go off writing stubs with the wrong names, is the correct name of the 60s folk performer (and Joan Baez' brother-in-law and Thomas Pynchon's college roommate) Richard Farina or Richard Fariña? "Farina" (no eñe) is, I believe, Italian for "flour" (whereas neither farina for fariña appear in my spanish dictionary at all) - but I belive Richard was of half-cuban descent. Does anyone know (by which I mean knowledge beyond what can be inconclusively derived from googling) which is correct ? -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 14:39, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

He was Richard Fariña. Among other things, that is how it is spelled on his copyrighted songs. And I'm guessing that you know that his wife Mimi was the former Mimi Baez, sister of Joan Baez... -- Jmabel 00:04, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Japanese negotiations near end of WW2

Where can I read about the Japanese negotiations with Russia and the US near the end of WW2? I've scanned the WW2 and History of Japan articles, but couldn't find it. - Anonymous

They weren't really in a position to negotiate, so the U.S. occupied the country and instituted the laws they saw fit. - Centrx 22:49, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Analagous to Americana?

Are there any other concepts like Americana that pertain specifically to other countries? Complete the analogy-- America:Americana::Britain:? - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 15:24, May 14, 2004 (UTC)

Well, I've certainly heard of Canadiana. It tends to include both things that are very Canadian (the Tragically Hip, poutine) and sometimes it's a sortof derogatory word for a collection of merchandise (maple syrup, stuffed-toy beavers, that kind of thing.) moink 15:29, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
Maybe a word like Americana had to be created because there was no equivalent word for what it refers to in the Old World? The variety of musical styles implied in the Americana entry would presumably only arise from a fusion of several different folk traditions as witnessed in that country. The whole Pop Culture movement came about from the unique American experience and perhaps required a new word to describe this material culture which was unlike and alien to European concepts. Australiana seems to exist on Google and I'm guessing there may well be a similar word for Japanese objets. As an Englishman I can't think of any similar words for my country, though we have plenty of terms for the ropey old tat that gets sold to tourists.adamsan 17:14, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
Judaica? --Smack 23:36, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
chinoiserie? -- Nunh-huh 23:41, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
Great word, but not exactly what I'm looking for. "Chinoiserie" refers to the western imitation of eastern art, like fake New York Feng Shui, or California's obsession with bamboo. Is there a word like this for authentic Japanese or Chinese culture? - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 15:05, May 17, 2004 (UTC)
Definitely Canadiana. OED also has Africana (meaning not of African American, but South Africans). And believe it or not, the brandname Tropicana actually is a real word that means "Things associated with or characteristic of tropical regions". OED also has Australiana...and that's everything ends in -ana that OED has which refers to "characteristics of ___". There are a lot of -ana's which refer to characteristics of famous artists or period of tim, like Proustiana, Mozartiana, Edwardiana, Georgiana.... --Menchi 00:02, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

There is nothing mysterious or specially american about the word. The word is the plural of the latin "americanum," and has a centuries-long history in bookselling, book collecting, etc as a singular and plural phrase to denote "an item (usually a book) that pertains to ___". I've seen many place names and sometimes even people names or thing names so adapted over the years. Obviously some sound more barbaric, silly, or unnatural when latinized and these don't get used. A real latin word with continued usage that served as the original type was probably something like arcanum/arcana or esotericum/esoterica. (s/pl) Alteripse 13:22, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

But does Americana not transcend its Latin root to become something more? 'Item pertaining to America' could refer to the aeroplane, totem poles, George W. Bush, Silicon Valley etc. I can't help thinking that Americana and the other New World -anas refer more to the cultural identity of the country concerned adamsan 14:12, 16 May 2004 (UTC) Sure, but that would be an expanded and relatively minority use of the word unless you could get lots of people using it that way. Alteripse 17:06, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
Kiwiana is the term used in New Zealand. --Zigger 04:26, 2004 May 15 (UTC)
Hmm, I never thought of the similarities to "arcana" and "esoterica", but it makes sense now. Someone suggested to me that "britannia" was a anthropomorphic reference to Britain, and sometimes was used to represent the cultural artifacts as well, but I have been unable to confirm this. A british perspective, perhaps? - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 15:05, May 17, 2004 (UTC)
Well, I'm British and do an awful lot of reading. If somebody said they'd bought some Britannia I wouldn't have a clue what they were referring to. I can't really think of a word that sits easily alongside Americana, I'm afraid. --bodnotbod 16:53, May 17, 2004 (UTC)
Hiberniana, Angliana, Caledoniana and Cambriana would be possibilities for Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales repectively- Google throws up results for all of them, often in scientific or abtruse contexts. I suppose Franciana, Teutoniana, Iberiana etc are also valid terms for other European countries adamsan 12:56, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps Gallica, Germanica and Hispanica, respectively? Sabbut 17:18, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
Britannica (as in Encyclopedia _______); their is also Judaica which is all that pertains to Judaic studies; there are probably other versions of this where you can put the country or subject as Encyclopeida ______ (and by the way there is an Encyclopedia Judaica and it's online). redjeep June 16 2004

[edit] Suggestion for Expanding Wikipedia

Hello, I'm a loyal wikipedia user and think this is probably one of the most impressive projects on the net right now. I was wondering if you had considered making a wikipedia toolbar, sort of like the googlebar, for searching wikipedia straight from Microsoft Explorer or Netscape Communicator. You could call it the WikiBar (original, I know).

Best regards, Andrei (Romania)

Andrei, sounds like a neat idea. :-) If you post this to the Wikipedia:Village pump you'll get more attention for the idea, I think, and (if I recall correctly) there is a page somewhere to request new features. But I think posting to the VP first is a good idea because it would be a pretty substantial new feature and we'd want to discuss it. Putting it here, I'm afraid, won't attract much attention -- this page mostly just answers people's reference questions. :-) Jwrosenzweig 16:23, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
Oh, I forget the link, but a couple of people produced some javascript code a while ago, which did something like you suggest. I think one selected a word or phrase that one wanted, and clicked on a bookmark/shortcut that corresponded with the javascript, and it automatically jumped to the wikipedia article of that title. Writing a toolbar is a lot of work (so I suspect it won't happen soon), but adding an option to an existing search function (such as mozilla's) might be fairly simple. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 16:30, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Bookmarklets contains links to the javascript bookmarklets. - Lee (talk) 16:52, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
If you use a good browser (i.e. one that is neither Internet Explorer, nor America Online, nor similar foolishness), it is likely to have a built-in customizable search bar. For instance, I know that Mozilla Firefox does. --Smack 23:36, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
P.S: Yes, there is a Wikipedia plugin for the Firefox search bar. About 20 of them, actually, for various (but not all) of the languages.

[edit] G.E. CJ805 Jet Engine full discription location ?

I am looking for a place to go on the net to read a full description of the G.E. CJ805 Jet Engine. Any and all help would be appreciated !

Thank you,

Pete roughrider59@netzero.com

Some limited information is available at [4]. Probably the best information is from Jane's Aero-Engines, but you have to buy a subscription to see that online, from [5]. Sorry I couldn't be more help. moink 03:13, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Transformational Grammar

According to what I've read at Transformational grammar, some maintainers of this page think what I'm about to suggest would complicate the issue. Here is my question: the article says "the mechanisms described in the example above have been out of date since the late 1960s", and I would really like to know what the current theory is to explain the transformation from "He went there" to "Where did he go?" I tried posting this query on the talk page, but nobody answered.

It's not an easy question. Many linguists never bought into transformational grammar, and by all appearances most have abandonned it now. It's hard to write an article on current thinking in transformational grammar because current thinking is much less clear. The ideas behind - for example - the head-initial rule are very simple and easy for English speakers to understand, but make no sense at all in discussing Russian word order. The result was a kind of "generic transformation" that didn't restrict any aspect of sentence structure, at which point many people began wondering what the point of transformational grammar was.
To the extent that there is a current version of the TG programme, it can be found in the section labelled Minimalism. As I understand it, it is an attempt to move forward with insights derived from the notion of "economy of derivation" - e.g., using the smallest possible set of rules to describe a language.
It should be noted that I am far from NPOV on this subject, so I haven't tried to touch the entry. Diderot 21:23, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
(Note this exact same question was also asked on Talk:Transformational grammar, where I answered it to some degree; here I'm answering Diderot more than the OP). To give a different POV, it's certainly not true that most linguists have abandoned TGG! You only have to look at the vast research literature on it which is still being expanded faster than that of most competing theories. I'm not sure what Diderot means about the "head-initial rule". There is no head-initial rule: it's just that some phrases in some languages are head-initial, and some are head-final. If head-initial makes no sense for Russian word order, I expect that's because Russian isn't head-initial (or because its word order is fairly free, in which case it would be explained by "scrambling" movements). It's true that some current thinking does hold that every language is head-initial, and that this is obscured by movement operations in some apparently non head-initial languages.
I don't know what Diderot is referring to by "generic transformation": there's certainly nothing of the kind in modern transformational theory, although there has been a revival of the "generalised transformation". But these certainly do restrict aspects of sentence structure.
Economy of derivation has nothing to do with the size of rule sets; rather the length of derivations. However reducing the number of rules in a grammar is a pretty central tennnet of Minimalism.
Generally, some people find all the movement in TGG rather spurious. Most of the movement operations I've talked about do have some independent evidence supporting them, however. It's not a case of "move anything anywhere if it gives the right answer".
Sorry to be a bit confrontational, but I hate to see my favorite theory attacked ;) Though having said this, the TGG page really needs a decent section on criticisms of Chomskyan linguistics. Cadr
Cadr, I was refering to that wonder of obscuritanism move-alpha, which makes no restriction on what it can move, or where it can move it to. Indeed, the whole criticism of the transformational programme is that when it is applied to relatively free word order languages like Russian, almost every kind of movement really does become possible. The point was that if some languages have free word order, it makes little sense to make universal generalisations from questions of word order or to see some metalinguistic structure in it. It was exactly this sort of point that carried most of the opposition to the transformational programme in the 70's and was one of the factors that led to the rapid decline in TG in the 90's. The allegation - the one that stuck - was that very little in this programme made sense when you condsider languages other than English. Confronted with actual language - something that became increasingly necessary with the return of corpus linguistics in the 90's - little of the TG approach could be sustained.
Recent work - trendy theories like cognitive linguistics and formalism like HPSG - really do massively reject TG. Cognitive linguistics is pretty hegemonic in linguistics these days. In Europe, it is easily the dominant paradigm, and it is certainly far better planted on the US west coast than TG or Minimalism is. TG is increasingly hard to find outside of metro Boston and a few other big schools on the east coast. Outside of the English-speaking world, there never was very much acceptance of TG.
I'm afraid I have exactly the opposite opinion of Chomsky - that he has done as much damage to linguistics as Skinner did to the behavioural sciences. But then, I work in dependency grammar, lexicography and empirical linguistics - all areas sharply undermined by the Chomskyan approach. I very much have a POV.
For the original poster, this sort of opposition is why this is such a controversial area and one of the reasons why a clearer more comprehensive article is going to be hard to write. Chomsky evokes a great deal of loyalty from his followers and deep-seated hatreds among his opponents. His reputation as an influential thinker is thereby assured - although whether he will be praised on demonised by future generations remains up for grabs - but I suspect that a nice row over the legacy of Chomsky can probably put the edit wars over Kosovo to shame. I hate to wade into areas that I know are minefields. Most of us do. After exam season ends, I'd be willing to work with Cadr or other Chomskyans in an effort to provide more balanced coverage of trends in modern lingusitics. I've been thinking for some time that linguistics outside of Greater Boston is woefully poorly covered here, but it is a big project and one I simply haven't time for now. But, I'd only be interested in really taking it on with the assistance of an outside moderator. This is like attempting to write a biography of Lenin. Diderot 13:08, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
I'm going to respond to this, but since I imagine most people(not least the OP) have lost interest by now, I'll do it on Diderot's talk page. Cadr

[edit] Seasons in the polar regions

How do season work directly at the North and South Poles? It's my understanding that the sun rises and sets exactly once a year (and takes its sweet time in the process). Someone made an edit to Season that seems to state otherwise. Could an astronomer or someone else knowledgeable clear this up? --Smack 23:36, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

They have seasons like everywhere else, and mostly days and nights like everywhere else too. Everywhere north of the arctic circle enjoys at least one 24-hour-time when the sun doesn't set, and one when it doesn't rise. The number of these periods (I'm avoiding calling 'em days) increases as one gets nearer to the pole. Ditto for south of the antarctic circle and the south pole. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 00:19, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
What physical mechanism causes the sun to rise and set at the poles? (I mean precisely at the poles, not just within the polar circles.) --Smack 02:57, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
The axial tilt. Gentgeen 03:19, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
Physical mechanism? The same as everywhere else - a large chunk of planet interposed between the observer and the sun :) There's really nothing special about the poles, other than they're the two points with the maxiumum and minimum day lengths (and then only on the summer and winter solstices). Like everywhere else, seasons there are entirely caused by the earth's axis of rotation not being perpendicular to the plain of the ecliptic - and remember that the earth-moon system isn't tidally locked, so the axis doesn't "point at" the sun. It's lined up (in one dimension) at the solstice, so you get maximum day length at one pole and minimum at the other. 90 degrees (3 months) later it's perpendicular (in that one "heliovertical" dimension) to the previous orientation, and everywhere on earth gets a 12 hour day and a 12 hour night (equinox). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 03:22, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
I understand that much. However, it doesn't explain why there should be multiple sunrises and sunsets. --Smack 19:06, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
You don't get multiple sunrises and sunsets. At most, you get one of each in any given 24 hour period, and (as noted above) sometimes none. You'd only see multiple sunsets or sunrises if you were moving (in an aeroplane or a spacecraft, for example). The sizeable anon addition, and the seasons article itself, looks fine to me, and I can't see anything that implies more than one sunrise per 24 hrs. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 19:21, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
Sorry if I'm not making myself clear. At the North or South Pole (I mean at the pole, not in the vicinity of the pole), the sun rises once a year, at the beginning of summer, and sets once a year, at the beginning of winter. Right? --Smack 05:22, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
You are making yourself clear, but your preconception is fundamentally flawed. The north pole is like everywhere else. It has days and nights - hundreds per year. The sun does not rise in the spring and set in the autumn. The sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening. For a few mornings it doesn't rise, and for a few evenings it doesn't set - apart from that, it's just like everywhere else. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 18:38, 16 May 2004 (UTC)


He means multiple sunrises and sunsets per year. I'm a little confused too; I can't see how the pole is going into the dark side of the planet more than once a year. Other places go into the dark side of the planet daily because they're moving around the pole; but the pole, since it doesn't have anything to go around other than itself (on a time scale of a few days or weeks, of course; it's of course moving gradually closer to the dark side over a time scale of months because of seasons), seems like it stays in the light side over a six-month period, and also stays in the dark side over a six-month period.
Remember that the earth is spinning about its own axis too - once every 24 hrs (with respect to its orbit around the sun). So a day is always 24 hours long, even if the sun doesn't actually make it above the horizon - even in the darkest polar winter, it's trying, and usually isn't very far below the horizon. I've uploaded a sketchy diagram (best my untalented self can do) which might help - it's at Image:Wfm sketch seasons.png. It should probably go on IfD once we're done with this discussion. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 19:35, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
As you correctly point out, every point on the Earth moves around the axis. However, the exact pole (which I think is what we're talking about) is right on the axis, so when it moves around the axis, it really stays stationary relative to the center of the planet. I've made a little Quicktime movie (Image:NorthPoleApril14.mov) in Starry Night Pro; it seems to show that, over a day in April, the sun stays above the horizon for 24 hours. LuckyWizard 02:28, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
I can't get the animation to play (dammit) but you're right - just at the pole, things are indeed weird (I guess the sun's path is "spiral", rather than diurnal). Mea culpa. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 14:16, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
I'd appreciate it if Finlay or someone links to a Flash animation or something so I can see what he's getting at. LuckyWizard 05:33, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
It's a damn hard thing to draw (and I've never seen an online animation - even the reliable howthingswork.com lets us down). The BBC has a half-decent diagram here -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 18:41, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

I'd be glad to work up a diagram in Blender with the potential for animation, as soon as I can get my own head around what exactly is going on. I think I see what F. McW. is saying, that if we use the term "day" to mean an approximately 24-hour period (or rather, "day" to mean a specific 12-hour period, followed by "night", another 12-hour period), then whether it's day or night has nothing whatever to do with whether the sun is visible or not. -- Wapcaplet 20:05, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

I did consider asking you, or cooking something up in povray, but it's tough. One really shouldn't use the words "night" and "day" (I know I do - there aren't any others!) in this context - there's a 24 hour period (the duration of the earth's rotation about its axis) and there's the period (a subset of that) when the sun is above the horizon. The best way to visualise this is to get a tennis ball, stick in a couple of cocktail sticks (for the axis) and then move it around a lightbulb (keeping the axis at a fixed angle) while all the time spinning it feverishly around by twidling the cocktail sticks. You'll notice that when the axis is aligned with the sun (when, in the plan view, it looks like it's pointing at the sun) there's a patch of the earth that never gets sun, regardless of which angle you twiddle the cocktail sticks. The seasons article (and the bbc, and how stuff works) just use the primary rotation (earth around sun), which explains the differences in average angle sunlight hits a part of the earth, and thus (partly) the temperature. But one needs to consider the earth's own rotation about its axis in order to understand day length. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 20:22, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

I've created a sample image. See Talk:Season. -- Wapcaplet 21:56, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

Precisely at the pole, an observer would not observe sunrise or sunset. Rather, the sun would circle the horizon while remaining at the same height. This height would change with the seasons. Within the vicinity of the pole, the height of the observation point compared to the height of surrounding terrain and the distance from the pole would determine whether sunrise and sunset would be observed. The human settlements nearest to the poles are still some distance away from them, so this effect is not widely observed.
While sunrise and sunset do not occur during certain times of the year in polar regions, twilight prevails instead, at least in inhabited areas. It resembles the sky conditions elsewhere shortly after sunset or shortly before sunrise. Therefore, even during the winter solstice, there is still some illumination during the day. In Alaska, the law defines a period of "civil twilight" that is used for regulations that are illumination-based, that would refer to a certain number of hours before sunrise and after sunset elsewhere. Examples include the operation of anticollision beacons on radio towers, ships, and aircraft.
UninvitedCompany 03:30, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
It is correct that, at the poles, it is essentially night for half the year and day for the other half. The easiest way to see this is something that I thought everyone did in elementary school--get a globe (or a basketball if you don't have a globe), mark the north & south poles & Your Favorite City. Take it into a dark room with a flashlight. Make sure the globe is tilted at about the right angle. Shine the flashlight ("sun") directly from the side at the globe so that it lights up the half facing you, and spin the globe around its axis (formed by the north/south poles). That's a day. When the north pole is titled directly away from the sun, it's winter in the northern hemisphere; when it's tilted towards you, it's summer. You can easily see how the poles don't get rising/setting sun but Your Favorite City does--and for shorter periods during the winter than the summer. And how polar regions varying amounts of darkness depending on how close they are to the pole (whether hidden in earth's shadow). :Elf | Talk 19:54, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Patrol vessel Schiff 26/ Polares.

Hi to you all.

I am searching for information on Schiff 26 captured by the Royal Navy destroyer Griffin on 26 April 1940 off Andalsnes, Sth of Trondheim, Norway. At the time the ship was disguised as the Dutch fishing trawler Polares.

I know the vessel was taken back to Scapa Flow and Enigma code books were obtained. What I am particulaly interested is technical details (dimensions and armament etc) and past history.

I am aware that such information may not exist,but I thought I'd enquire anyway. If anyone knows of other websites or archives I could try, please let me know

Kind regards

Bill Greathead


Schiff 26: former name Julius Pickenpack, with 393 BRT. [6]. Maybe that helps you in your search. -- Chris 73 | Talk 04:28, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] PSPACE

Is the Kleene closure in PSPACE? That is, if A is in PSPACE, is A* in PSPACE as well?

This is a question about Computational complexity theory phrased in terms of accepting a language rather than as a decision problem.
The answer is yes. If A is in PSPACE then A* is in NPSPACE. So by Savitch's theorem, A* is in PSPACE. Gdr 14:20, 2004 May 16 (UTC)

[edit] Swapping an article with its redirect (sometime fails, sometimes not)

Suppose A --> B (a redirect page with title "A" redirects to article with title "B")

You want to swap them so that B --> A.

I always thought that this involved a laborious manual procedure, involving renaming and petitioning admins to remove redirects to allow for further renaming, etc.

However, sometimes just "Move this page" allows you to rename "B" to "A", overwriting the original redirect at "A" and creating a new redirect at "B", magically doing exactly what you want. On the other hand, sometimes this fails: "Move this page" complains that the target page already exists.

I haven't been able to figure out any rhyme or reason as to why it sometimes succeeds and why it sometimes fails. Anybody know?

I suspect the cases where you're "succeeding", you're actually making a duplicate article. In addition to article names being case sensitive, special characters that should be equivalent (and look equivalent) generate different articles. I recommend you take a close look at your "my contributions" to see if one of those "moves" you made really did what you think. If you can cite a specific case where you're confident that a move really has overwritten an existing article, post it here and we'll check. If you've somehow managed it, that's a bug (a rather serious one), in which case we'll file it. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 23:47, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
Nope, it actually did succeed, on several different occasions. No typos involved.
If there's an article named A, and you move it to B, then you (or anyone) can use the move function to move it back to A, leaving a redirect at B, if and only if the redirect the move created at A has not been changed (that is, if A has a 'page history', an administrator has to delete it before anything can be moved there; if it doesn't, anyone can do it). - Nunh-huh 23:56, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
In the particular case I tried today, Zhu Da redirects to Chu Ta. Both were created today, and Zhu Da is a simple redirect page without any prior history. It should be possible to move Chu Ta along with its history to Zhu Da. No information would be lost. Any particular reason why such a simple operation requires so much manual intervention?
I run into this problem very often with transliterated versions of foreign names, where the more correct version is a simple historyless redirect to a less correct version. I don't want to become an admin... is there some other way to get around this hindrance?
Curps 00:40, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
PS, something apparently got screwed up by the attempted move. If you click on Zhu Da it's acting like a double-redirect (doesn't automatically redirect to Chu Ta)... meanwhile, invoking "what links here" at Chu Ta doesn't indicate that Zhu Da is a redirect, or show its incoming links.
PPS, never mind, it seems that problem was caused by the original creator of the redirect page leaving a space between # and REDIRECT. The automatic redirect is working now. But I still can't swap the pages.
You can't swap, because Zhu Da now has a history (the elimination of the space character). If not for that, you could. I imagine the reason is that we don't want to allow wiping out page histories, because that could be exploited by vandals. = Nunh-huh 01:41, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Results Of Previous Bledisloe Cup Matches

To whom it may concern,

My name is Nikki and I am a year 11 student at Rochedale State High School. As a course requirement at school, I have been asked to do an assignment on statestics. For my topic I have chosen to anaylse the scores in Bledisloe Cup matches, however it is difficult to obtain this information. I have asked Rugby Australia for their assistance but have not heard back from them as yet. Wikipedia has provided me with the best information so far, however I need to know the specific scores of each game, not just how many games were won by each country during the series. I can't start my assignemtn until I get this information, so please I am asking anyone who knows this information or who knows where to get this information to help me. My e-mail is rainbowsprinkles99@hotmail.com. Thank you all, your help will be greatly appreciated.

Yours truly,
Nikki :-)

This link should take you to the history of Australia vs. New Zealand results on planet-rugby.com .. how to winnow out the Bledisloe Cup matches from other matches, I'm not sure. Luckily the Wikipedia article Bledisloe Cup lists which years the cup was played in, and how many games each side won. Good luck! And here's looking forward to this year's Bledisloe Cup and Tri-Nations, should be some great games! --Stormie 01:02, May 17, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Gold Sovereign

What year did the Bank of England remove the gold sovereign as part of the every day currency needed to pay for articles, clothing, etc.? --Unsigned comment from village pump

1914. They were withdrawn on the outbreak of the First World War and replaced by Treasury Notes for £1 and 10/-, which were issued within two days of the declaration of war. The Bank of England took over the issuing of £1 and 10/- notes in 1928. -- Arwel 17:59, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Nick Berg's decapitation murder

To make distinctions between Berg Murder and Abu Ghraib prison abusers:

Answer a few Questions that cloud who dunnit?:

Who issues Orange Jumpsuits for its Prisoners? Who has white plastic lawn chairs in its prisons, like the chair Berg was sitting in and appeared in other pictures of Abu Ghraib prison? Who uses military time on its Videos? Whose facilities has dingy yellow colored smooth walls? What kind of men stand feet apart at parade rest? Whose guards have white hands and a gold wedding band on the ring finger? Whose guards are often overweight with paunchy stomachs? Whose guards have AK-47's? Who would mutter "Thy will be done" (heard in the background) at the beheading? Which side desperately needed a timely refocus away from the prison abuse scandals?

Don in Seattle

Answers on a postcard please. Mark Richards 23:47, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
See Nick Berg conspiracy theories. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 16:32, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Why non-online references are not found ?

Dear reference desk people,


shouldn't non-online references (books, papers etc.) be used in articles of an academic character ?

I could find none since i've started to wander through Webopaedia.


Regards, Hgfernan 02:18, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

Why? Because netizens are lazy bums who do not want to venture into public or university libraries to physically check books out (that is, after driving/bussing/walking to there). On the other hand, online references are ...a click away. --Menchi 02:33, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
Frustrates me, too. I think I've been better about this than most, but I certainly use online references over print by a ratio of about 5:1. -- Jmabel 03:46, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
However, print references are often available online, at least the newer ones, and at least in my field. Of course, I should add that all these are only available on a subscription basis, and so I'm lucky too be employed by a university. Sanders muc 11:26, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
Another factor is that an online reference is easy for anyone to check, simply by clicking on a link. A hard-copy of an off-line reference might not exist within 100 miles, never mind be sitting on your desk. HTH HAND --Phil | Talk 12:49, May 17, 2004 (UTC)
If an article lacks references to printed material, why not add them? Gdr 09:15, 2004 May 18 (UTC)
There are several articles with a section "References" that include books, and maybe even some periodicals. You can add more if you like. - Centrx 22:55, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese translations

The Youth Group to which I am attached at our local church (St Mary's Amersham) have decided to protest on behalf of two Chinese Christian leaders, one Protestant and one Catholic, who have, according to Amnesty International, been imprisoned or otherwise restrained because of their faith. They have composed a letter for each and are collecting signatures. I had the idea that getting the various documents translated into Chinese would present the project in a better light. Is there anyone who would be prepared to perform such a translation? The texts to be translated would be posted on sub-pages of my user-page to provide full disclosure and allow cross-checking if necessary. I am aware that there are two Chinese wikipedias: Traditional and Simple; whether or not two translations of our documents would be good is open to question (I would assume "yes"). Please post any offers of help, suggestions for procedure, or indeed properly-founded objections to my use of Wikipedia thuswise, to my talk page. (I have not posted any such text yet, so don't knock yourselves out looking :-) NB: this is not an official Amnesty International project, they were simply the source of our information, so don't go asking them, they almost certainly won't have heard of us. They should have heard of the subjects, however, should anyone require further confirmation once the source documents are posted.. --Phil | Talk 13:59, May 17, 2004 (UTC)

Might you have more luck if you posted this on the Chinese Wikipedia sites? Mark Richards 15:25, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
There are two potential Chinese translators listed on the relatively new Wikipedia:Translation into English page -- Vina and alchow. Go to their user page, click "Discuss this page" to get to their talk page and leave a message. No guarantees that they'll be able to help directly with a non-Wikipedia translation issue, but they may be able to help point you in the right direction. Good luck! Catherine - talk 00:31, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Who Invented the first quantum computer?

I have been searching the net for the answer of my question and run into a brick wall with all my search attempts, I know that basic quantum computers have been made but I would like to know who invented the first quantum computer?

Also any general information you could provide, and links to other sources of information about quantum computers themselves would be very helpful to me.

                                                     Thanks for your time
                                                                    David
The Timeline of quantum computing might help. Mark Richards 23:25, 17 May 2004 (UTC)


In a way, the answer might be: nobody. It hasn't been invented yet. You see, all current implementations are so simple that they can only demonstrate the principle on two to five quantum bits, and they cannot simply be scaled up to higher qubit number. There are theoretical proposals around for scalable quantum computing architectures, but they are rather raw ideas in the sense that lots of resaerch is still necessary to surmount the formidable techical and physical deifficulties in implementing them. Most advanced are at the moment the ion trap quantum computer scheme (original proposal in 1995 by I. Cirac (now Max-Planck-Institut für Quantenoptik) and P. Zoller (University of Innsbruck)), and (though debated heavily) the NMR quantum computing scheme (forget who brought up the idea).
Oh, and it was Richard Feynman who brought up the whole idea in the 1980s by noticing that a generic simulation of any quantum system is exponentielly complex but could still be tractable if one used a computer making explicit use of quantum mechanics. But he did not propose any way of building such a device.
Also, have a look at http://www.qubit.org Sanders muc 09:51, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] trademarks?

I am a trademark lawyer writing a paper on the use of trademarks on the internet, and am curious to know whether Wikipedia has received "cease-and-desist" messages from trademark owners asking that the site refer to the registration status of their marks. I've checked over the copyright/copyleft information on the site, but haven't seen anything about trademarks. If you have received warning messages from corporate trademark owners, what have you done in response--changed definitions? Added disclaimers? Does Wikipedia have a policy in place for dealing with such requests? Thanks in advance.

Wikipedia does not have a policy to refer to the registration of trademarks. We did have a brief discussion on the subject a couple of years ago, and came to the conclusion that specific acknowledgement of trademarks was neither legally necessary nor desirable in an encyclopedia (See Wikipedia talk:Trademark notices for the old discussion). I would be interested in your opinion as to whether our conclusion was correct.
To my (incomplete) knowledge, we have never had any problems with trademark owners, and we don't have a specific method for reporting issues with trademarks. However, as with anything else with Wikipedia, people who want something changed don't have to report it or discuss it with anyone - they can just edit the page there and then!
I hope this is helpful. Enchanter 23:57, May 17, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your prompt response. My own brief response, which is not to be construed as a legal opinion (sorry, I had to say it), is that your decision not to acknowledge trademarks was not an incorrect one. Encyclopedias and dictionaries fall under a sort of "reporting exception" to trademark law, by which I mean that they attempt to describe language as it is used, and the law cannot fault them for the non-commercial use of such trademarks. The issue becomes a contentious one for trademark owners when their marks are in danger of becoming generic; if an encyclopedia or dictionary records, for example, the mark KLEENEX as the generic for a facial tissue, a court would consider that authoritative evidence that the mark was indeed generic, and Kimberly-Clark would be in danger of losing its trademark rights to the KLEENEX mark. I know several lexicographers who have reported getting nastygrams from big corporations trying to prevent them from using their marks generically in dictionaries; however, there is no legal basis upon which a trademark owner could technically force a dictionary to exclude a term. I had been curious as to whether Wikipedia had ever had to deal with a similar nastygram.

I don't know of any -- I suppose the person to contact would be our benevolent dictator Jimbo Wales. I do note that there is a long list of not-yet-generic but threatened trademarks on the genericized trademark article.... Catherine - talk 18:43, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] DVD Recorder and Player - To Anarion

To Anarion

Thank you for your explanation on why the DVD hestitates. You say that there is not any way to prevent this except by not using double layering. Does that mean that you are able to buy a recordable DVD that is single layered? If that is the case then we should be able to eliminate the problem, although I assume that we also sacrifice record time - by half?

Thanks for your help.

                           Ross Lambourn,

                           18th May.
Single layer DVD-R and DVD+R discs exist, and should be available for sale. But you are right that this will cut the disc capacity roughly in half (about 4.7GB as opposed to 8.5GB — 2 vs 4 hours of DVD-quality MPEG-2 video.) Anárion 08:48, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Linux on blue iMac

I have an old Blue iMac with 64mb, and am running Yellow Dog 2.3 on it. It is paaiinfuully sloooow. I want to run a web browser and a word processor / spredsheet that is Word 2000 compatible (more or less, no need for 100%). Is there a better distribution? Are there things I could do to tweak the setup I have to make it more usable? Appreciate that this is not the right forum, but have exhausted all of the linux/mac resources I could find. Thanks! 207.189.98.44 17:40, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

Are you using the KDE ot the Gnome desktop? The latter is quite a bit faster adamsan 19:02, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

Using Gnome already...

I've found that the Fluxbox desktop manager is quite a bit faster than Gnome, or you could also try Blackbox. This might help speed things up--Gnome was quite slow for me, at least to start up, and the *box desktops are generally designed with speed in mind (I'm unaware as to whether they are available for your distribution though--I would assume so...) Hope this helps. Chopchopwhitey 08:11, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Great - thanks - I did manage to install Fluxbox, but I was such a raving noob that I couldn't make any sense of it. I couldn't find any of my apps, and gave up after a couple of hours. I couldn't find any tutorials or anything that didn't assume a whole lot of knowledge. They all seemed to be about writing scripts. Could you point me in the right direction? Thanks!

[edit] Earth's core

Can u pls tell me if the inner core or the outer core of the earth is spinning in order to form the magnetical field. it may be a stupid question but i've seen the film "the core" where they said the liquid core was moving, that is the outer core. and in here it was written that the inner core is moving, the solid part, maybe a little faster than the earth. pls answer. iri

A helpful search term here appears to be "super-rotation" or "superrotation". Here's a detailed discussion of the finding and here's a set of Google search results you may find useful --bodnotbod 16:23, May 19, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] inventor of precast concrete paneling

hello i would like some information regarding the inventor, or the inventor team of the precast concrete paneling system?

[edit] Ron McDole

My name is Linda Garcher. I am the mother of Ron McDoles great nephew. He is currently experiencing epilepsy. His Father Roland (Ron) Mcdole 2nd informed me of His uncles migrain headaches while he was playing for the Houston Oilers. Although there is mention of it in one of your articles, there is no explanation as to what may have caused them. Was there ever a diagnosis? What was the outcome? How did he go on to play for the Bills? Was it indeed epilepsy? Please research this and get back to me.

Forever grateful, Linda Lou Garcher

I think that you need to seek medical advice on this. Mark Richards 17:54, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
That's a bit snide. This may be relevant to the article on Ron McDole. -- Jmabel 02:31, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
Appologies - no intent to seem snide, I worry about questions that seem to be asking for medical advice, but I seem to have misunderstood this one. Mark Richards 17:25, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
FWIW, I didn't interpret that as snide at all - seemed a sensible comment to me. --bodnotbod 23:09, May 21, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Help for my Mother

Help me settle something with my mother. I have asked her to quit drinking for health reasons, I at least asked her to stop drinking Vodka. I thought I heard somewhere that Vodka goes through the liver faster than other alcohols. Is this true. If I am right, she will change her habits. Please Help. Jim Shook

I think that you need to encourage your mother to seek medical advice. Mark Richards 19:25, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
Apart from a somewhat lower concentration of fusel alcohols, Vodka has the same alcohol in it as other alcoholic beverages and affects the liver and the brain in the same way. The concentration (strength) differs however, with most vodka having 40% alcohol compared to about 6% for beer and 12% for wine. If your mother consumes excessive alcohol, or if alcohol is having a major negative effect on her life, you may wish to encourage her to obtain a professional assessment. See the article at Alcoholism for a comprehensive treatment of the subject. UninvitedCompany
Vodka has less additives than other spirits. As a general rule, the darker the drink, the more impurities and the worse the hangover. So, your mother might be having less of a headache than she would with whisky or - in particular - red wine. I think this may mean the liver has less work to do, however it would be infinitely kinder to the liver to drink water. And I agree with the others who have said she should seek advice from somebody medically trained. The first step might be to get her to keep a diary of her drinking - say for two weeks - and then present this to her physician for his opinion. --bodnotbod 23:34, May 19, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] How to find a list of original IRA founders

Well, as this article shows the origins are a bit fragmented, but there's some names there to get you started. --bodnotbod 23:38, May 19, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Cotton Davidson

moved from the Help desk
I have been researching my memory with yourhelp for the 1960 Dallas Texans. You have a lot of infomation n the team and founder Lamar Hunt. I recall a quarterback named Cotton Davidson that first year. Do you have any info on him.

[edit] Noun

Meaning 2 of noun in my dictionary: "a word except a pronoun used in a sentence as subject or object of a verb, as object of a preposition, as the predicate after a copula, or as a name in an absolute construction". Absolute means "standing in an unusual relation to the rest of the sentence; for instance, modifying the entire sentence itself." How would a noun be used in an absolute construction?

I have no idea whether I'm right, but perhaps in the sentence "What should I do with this, boss?", the word "boss" (a noun) could be seen as "absolute". That is, it isn't connected to a verb or preposition in any way, and isn't the predicate of the sentence. It could be seen as "modifying the entire sentence itself" (specifically, indicating the person to whom the sentence is directed). Like I said, this is just a guess. -- Vardion 02:12, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
I'm afraid boss there is a noun of direct address. An example of an absolute adverb would be frankly in "Frankly, the waiter disgusted me."
An example of an absolute word that does not modify the whole sentence: In Latin, multa is absolute when it is taken to mean "many (things)", that is, when the noun is implied and the neuter gender shows that it is referring to objects ("many things" word for word is multæ rêî); an absolute adjective is also called a nominal.
Absolute comparatives and superlatives express qualities in certain degrees with no reference points: "Treat an older man with respect"; "You're the greatest!" Gelu Ignisque 17:23, May 20, 2004 (UTC)
New message, previous correspondent didn't sign...
My friend, who is very good on these things says : Noun absolutes are usually a noun and its gerund (yes, we're never far from those), used as a subordinating adverbial clause, which modifies the main clause thereby. This is an instance where even I balk at the possessive with the gerund. For example:
"Graeme having asked, Nick replied".
Sometimes, the gerund is merely tacit:
"Book in front of him, he sat down and read", where the book's "lying" or "being" is the sublimated gerund.
Is that any use? I can't claim to understand that entirely (or even mostly). --bodnotbod 13:57, May 20, 2004 (UTC)
I am reminded of the accusative and nominative absolutes, which are constructions involving pronouns and nonfinite verbs (such as your -ing verbs above): "Him/he being my friend, I grudgingly acquiesced to grant him the favor."
Unfortunately, you cannot call your verbs gerunds, because gerunds are verbals (other parts of speech derived from verbs) that have meanings closer to action nouns: "the passing away of the king", "the testing of the students." Gelu Ignisque 17:23, May 20, 2004 (UTC)
OK. I put all that to my friend, Gelu. He says I agree with this, to an extent. They are here a weird part of a greater nouno-adverbial gestalt, which is why they are probably here better called gerundives than gerunds. Adverbial? In a sense, yes. One's sort of saying "I grudgingly, knowinghimasafriendbeingly, acquiesced to grant him a favor [sic]".
Personally I think you've got him on the ropes. --bodnotbod 23:47, May 20, 2004 (UTC)
This is one of the fine points of grammar that non–Latin students frequently miss: gerundive is not the adjectival form of gerund but a completely different verb form that indicates that the noun being described is to have something done to it: multiplicandus = "to be multiplied"; addendum = "to be added", etc.
Tangent: Both of these verbs can be broken down further: multiplicâre comes from multus, "many", + -i-, the connecting and thematic vowel, + -plic-, -plex; addere comes from ad-, "toward", + -dere, by vowel change from dâre, "to give".
Kudos to your friend for using the word gestalt! Gelu Ignisque 04:22, May 21, 2004 (UTC)

Hmm, things seem to have gone off on a tangent here. In English, a noun is used in an absolute construction in what is known as a nominative absolute, which is a phrase that consists of a noun (or pronoun) followed by a participle (*not* a gerund) plus the complement of the phrase which can be nothing, an adjective, or a noun/pronoun forming the object of the participle, with perhaps an adverb thrown in too. The first noun/pronoun essentially forms the subject of the participle. We can see the participial nature of the verb because it's quite possible to have a passive (past) participle and not just an active (present) participle ... so with an -ed and no -ing, it ain't no gerund :-)

  • Their reputation secured by victory, the team charged into the semifinals.
  • The weather being rainy, we decided to postpone the trip.
  • The cook having overslept, the guests had to wait for their breakfast.
  • Our feet aching, we plodded on.
  • Our spirits lifted, we strode ahead.

The active/passive difference can easily be seen:

  • Our feet aching => our feet ached
  • Our spirits lifted => our spirits were lifted

As a bit of as aside, although the first noun is the subject of the phrase, we English just can't bear to use the nominative case absolutely:

  • Who did it? Me! (*not* I!)
  • Who said that? Him! (*not* He!)

even though the expanded constructions would presumably be I did it, He said it. So we get nominative absolutes of the form:

  • Me being lazy, it never got done.
  • Them doing their very best, we still beat them.

which some grammarians have called the accusative absolute. Don't listen to them; just tell them we English like our absolute pronouns to be in what they would call the accusative, regardless of whether the absolute pronoun is functioning as a subject or object. Spellbinder 21:45, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Chubb, Hungary

What happened to the city of Chubb . I have relatives who came from there and would like to visit the present "Chubb" Linda L

[edit] Measuring Instruments

What is the difference between Prescion and Non Precision Instruments and Checking Gauges?

[edit] new york knicks history

was there ever a #46 on the team ? and if so who was he?

[edit] Classical Music Recommendation for Author

A strange question for this page but I hold the brains here in high esteem. I'm writing a humorous short story. At one point a character relates an anecdote about getting drunk and ending up at a chamber music or string quartet recital. He is desperate to urinate but is too blind drink to move. So he waits for the moment he senses the applause is about to occur and allows himself to release into the back of the chair in front of him. Unfortunately he chooses the wrong moment and the applause does not come. He is left with the sound of his... well, I'm sure you follow.

What I'm after is a bit of music that would be very soothing, played only by string quartet or in chamber fashion (please tell me which it is) and then has a pause for the next movement (where no applause would occur). Ideally it would be great if it were to end on a solitary violin, holding a high note, and fading. I would prefer it to be a quiet, introspective piece, with no staccato business, no bumptiousness. Very low key. Anybody got the perfect suggestion? --bodnotbod 19:14, May 20, 2004 (UTC)

Pachelbel's canon. →Raul654 19:19, May 20, 2004 (UTC) (And there's an ogg file there for you to listen to).
That probably wouldn't do, since it's in just one movement, and therefore the applause could only come in one place. The thing that springs to mind for me is the Adagio (second movement) of Franz Schubert's String Quintet - as soothing, quiet, low key slow movments go, that's about as close to archetypal as they come. But it doesn't end with a violin on a high note and, though it ends quietly, it isn't entirely soothing and so on all the way through (it gets a bit worked up in the middle)... I'll have a bit of think, see if I can come up with anything else. --Camembert
Got the ogg of Pachelbel. I'm enjoying it in its own right - which is nice ;o) But I see Camembert's reservation, and that is - indeed - a problem. Schubert sounds pormising. Be grateful for more suggestions. --bodnotbod 20:12, May 20, 2004 (UTC)
Though not the question you asked, it might conceivably be useful to point out the death of Tycho Brahe, purportedly because he was too polite to urinate at a dinner party... [7]. -- Nunh-huh 23:59, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
That's not in the least bit helpful... but I'm sure everyone enjoyed that ;o) --bodnotbod 18:22, May 22, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Is Jueventaeu Gurerra, and Chavo jr. the same wrestlers?

Hello;

My name is Gregory Davis, and I thank you for taking the time out to answer this question for me. My best friend and I are at odds about the wrestlers listed above in the subject field. My best friend seems to think that Jueventeau, and Chavo Jr. are the same people. Please tell him that this is not so!! He says that Jueventeau has taken on the roll of Chavo Jr., is this true? If my memory serves me right, these wrestlers are two different people. They were two different people in the WCW, and they are still two different people today. Also, these two wrestlers are of no relation to each other, has that also changed? I am out to prove a point to my best friend that he is not always right! So please, just for me, set this stupid friend of mine straight, and tell him that these wrestlers are two totally different people, or at least were two different people. And if you can, please send proof of your info, just so that I can shut him up. thanks a million for your help. Please send your response to thablindlegend@bellsouth.net . I am not a subscriber as of yet, but I intend on becomeing one real soon. If I have misspelled any words in this letter, then please excuse me, and I apoligize for my mistakes. We have a chicken dinner at stake here, so please make me the right one in this dispute.

Gregory L. Davis

[edit] Cake cutting problem

Does anyone know more about the cake cutting problem and methods for arriving at a fair solution? --Eequor 01:01, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Well, there's a well-known solution for two people: If one cuts and the other chooses, then the first will cut in the manner he thinks is equal, and the second will choose the piece he thinks is bigger. So both think they are getting at least half the cake.
The cool thing I learned in my discrete math course is this: you can do it for any number of people using a certain method. This method entails the two-person solution.
Here's how to do it with three people: Two of the people divide the cake among themselves by having one person cut and the other choose. Then, these two people each divide their portion into thirds. They will try to do it in a manner that they consider equal so that they don't lose the bigger portion. Then, the third person comes into play. He will choose two of the six pieces -- one from the first person, one from the second. Algebra can be used to show that, if the third person chooses the slices he thinks biggest, then he will think the two pieces together to be at least a third. So we have a fair division algorithm for three people.
For four people, divide it among three of them as above. Then each of the three divides his portion into quarters, and the fourth person chooses one quarter from each person. For five people, divide among four, then each of these four divides his portion into fifths and the fifth guy chooses one of each person's fifths. And so on. Mathematical induction can be used to show that the last guy will always receive what he believes to be at least 1/n of the cake. LuckyWizard 05:50, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
What if none of the people can divide a slice into equal pieces to their own satisfaction? At least, not without cutting a bit off one slice and adding it to the other, then a bit back again, and forth, and back and forth, resulting in piles of cake purée instead of neat slices? Κσυπ Cyp 10:05, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
Take the cake puree and weigh it out. Each person get's 1/n of the total weight. easy! theresa knott 11:17, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
Bah!! typical illogical reponse!! Find the original recipe, make up the mixture and create n small cakes, one for each recipient!! H!T!H!! H!A!N!D!! --Phil | Talk 12:22, May 21, 2004 (UTC)
Rofl. But seriuosly: I remeber having once read at that at least for certain numbers of people there are schemes that can avoid the puree problem. Are there any? Sanders muc 12:16, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
Here's a method that gives each person a solid slice of cake with not too much puree: Suppose there are n people. Person 1 cuts a slice he believes is precisely 1/n of the cake. Person 2 examines the slice. If he thinks it's 1/n or less, he leaves it. If he thinks it's more than 1/n, he cuts off a small amount to reduce it to what he thinks is 1/n. Person 3 then examines it in the same way, and so on up to person n. The last person to cut off a small amount takes the slice. Repeat until everyone has a slice. --Auximines 13:07, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

There, I've written the article for fair division. Thanks! I... don't know... how to wikify it! Ahhh! Where can it be linked to? --Eequor 15:23, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

I first read the heading as "the coke cutting problem". And similar problems apply - except that several loaded, powerful handguns in the room concentrate the mind. --bodnotbod 23:21, May 21, 2004 (UTC)

Ha. Funny, that cheered me up this morning! Mark Richards 18:20, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Help identifying a piece of modern classical music

A while ago someone lent me a novel piece of classical music. I've lost touch with that person, and can't for the life of me figure out what it was. Do the following characteristics ring any bells:

  • it was a live performance
  • it was largely (or perhaps entirely) strings - I think it might just have been a string quartet
  • it came on several (I think 2) CDs
  • it was incredibly repetitive - the same phrase (about 20 seconds long) was repeated endlessly
  • but with each repetition it changed subtly, until it was quite different to how it had begun
  • it wasn't especially chromatic, nor especially dissonant
  • I heard it in about 1997, so it's no newer than that
  • so I suppose one could call it classical-ambient

Does this sound familiar to anyone? -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 01:27, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

I'd hazard a guess we could be in Kronos Quartet territory here, in the region of Steve Reich, Philip Glass, and Terry Riley. Could I just put in an off topic plug for John Adams and Nixon in China, which you're bound to love. Have a search for these on allclassical.com, since I think they may describe each of the albums. --Tagishsimon
Thanks for the ideas. I don't think it was Kronos Quartet or Philip Glass, I'll have to check the others out (the latter sounds familiar, but the trouble with wikipedia is that after a while everything sounds familiar) -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 01:52, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
As stupid as this might sound, Finlay, if you really want a good answer, I'd suggest you hum/whistle/sing it, record yourself, and post it here. →Raul654 01:43, May 21, 2004 (UTC)
That's the trouble (and the point, I guess) - it didn't really have a tune (at least, not one it stuck to long enough to matter). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 01:52, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
I was going to say Philip Glass too, but I would also add Michael Nyman. --bodnotbod 23:25, May 21, 2004 (UTC)
Ooh! I've just remembered the Penguin Cafe Orchestra too. We don't seem to have an article on them. So much to do, so little time. But so many people... (Stares at room) --bodnotbod 18:26, May 22, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Term of address for Eastern Orthodox clergy?

Yeah. So, er, how exactly does one address Eastern Orthodox clergy? -Penta 04:39, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Father? Mark Richards 00:49, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
If you do it in English, "father" is correct. If you do it in Russian (where most of Orthodox clergy reside), you use "ba-tyush-ka" (which is a diminutive for the old Russian word "ba-tya", which means father). But personally I use "motherfucker" most of the time. Paranoid 13:08, 31 May 2004 (UTC)
I'm sorry - that is SO inapropriate. I almost fell off my chair laughing! Thank you, Mark Richards 15:49, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Carbon Monoxide

Is CO heavier or lighter than air--does it reside nearer the ceiling or the floor in undisturbed air.

thanks

CO has a molecular weight of 28. Air is 79% nitrogen (N2; molecular weight of 28) and Oxygen (O2; molecular weight of 32). →Raul654 16:00, May 21, 2004 (UTC)
In other words, CO is very slightly lighter than air. However, the difference is so slight that in any real situation, the CO and air will be well-mixed. -- DrBob 16:41, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

So in theory, if you had a sealed box, would the gases in air 'settle out' or remain mixed? Mark Richards 16:43, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

As long as it was a very sealed box (nothing moving inside, well isolated from the surroundings, no thermal gradients, etc.) you should get a concentration gradient with the highest-density gases concentrated towards the bottom, low-density gases tending towards the top. There would still be some mixing. I think the lower the temperature, the sharper the gradient, possibly with almost-discrete layers at low (<100K) temperatures. -- DrBob 17:03, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
The extent of a density gradient is almost immeasurable even under conditions favoring it. The gas laws, based on the newtonian mechanics of each gas molecule bouncing around in the box, can be used to derive a density gradient based on the height of the box and hence the pressure difference from top to bottom. While a gradient would be most notable at low temperatures and pressures, it would still be limited unless a centrifuge were employed as is done in uranium enrichment, which relies upon this effect. UninvitedCompany 17:37, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Theodore Roosevelt

Was Theodore Roosevelt a liberal or a conservative?

He was a republican, but that didn't mean quite the same thing in his historical context as it does now. Whether he was liberal or conservative depends largely on how you define those terms - he probably doesn't fit comfortably into the categories that our political shorthand uses today. Mark Richards 21:23, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
"progressive" --Jiang
... in the terms of his time, but extremely imperialist, which does not go with the use of "progressive" nowadays. -- Jmabel 17:08, Jun 8, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Short-circuit Motherboard

Does this sound like the motherboard was short-circuited?

Metal forceps touched another metallic part of the motherboard, and sparkles went up, and a smell (silicon or plastic, I don't know) went up.

If the motherboard was short-circuited, and since the laptop motherboard is stuck inside the laptop, does this mean the laptop is useless and needs to be replaced entirely? Thanks. --Quester 23:38, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

There's usually some nontrivial capacitors on any motherboard, and a laptop usually has an integrated mainboard with all kinds of stuff on it (soundcard, low-volage power-conditioning). It's also possible to short the lithium battery that keeps the C/NMOS clockchip running. So it is indeed quite likely that the board is toast (particularly if you smell burning). If the laptop is very new, it might be worth getting a new mainboard (as the cost of a high-end laptop display is quite a large proportion of the overall cost), so in that case it would be worthwhile taking it to a qualified repairer who can tell what is actually toasted. If the laptop is old, and/or has a small screen, then it's likely not to be cost-effective. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 23:47, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Gull identification

Any idea what this bird is? Image:Juvenile Gull 800.jpg When I took the picture I thought it was a juvenile Herring Gull. But the eyes are dark - and an adult Herring Gull's eyes are yellow, I'm not sure if they change. I wondered if it could be a young Great Black-backed Gull. The beak of the Great Black-backed Gull is black when young (yellow later) I'm not sure if the same is true of the Herring Gull. Or it could be something very different. Scale is difficult to see without something else in the picture - but it was large, about the size of a Herring Gull if I recall. the piture was taken in Devon. Can anyone help? -- sannse (talk) 09:17, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

I've been given an answer - a very kind man at http://www.birdsofbritain.co.uk/ thinks I was right in the first place :) -- sannse (talk) 17:21, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Looking for a specific Japanese Proverb

Hi...

I stumbled across your site while looking for a specific (1 or more) Japanese proverb for "persistance"

Could you forward a few or direct me to where I could find it?

thank you..

Mark ps... I love your site. It is very informative.

I don't know if it was just a typo or whether your search has been hampered by your misspelling of persistence.
How's this?...
It does not matter how slowly you go so long as you do not stop. - Confucius
If you Google for persistence confucious (no quote marks) you'll find plenty of hits.
--bodnotbod 18:32, May 22, 2004 (UTC)
"Nana korobi, ya oki", which means something like "Fall down seven times and stand up eight". -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 20:13, 22 May 2004 (UTC)
Is that a comment on the fabled genetic inability to handle booze prevalent in the far east? --bodnotbod 00:23, May 23, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Thomas Adrian McTaggert

Hi,

Have you ever heard of the McTaggert family, the family of printers during the Revolutionary Period? I'm looking for information on Thomas Adrian McTaggert specifically.

Thanks,


Curtiss

[edit] Cabinet ministers

Why are British cabinet ministers called "secretary" while other Commonwealth ministers are called "minister"? --Jiang 21:57, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

Hmmm. Good question. You might find these definitions instructive secretary and minister. They'll tell you that a secretary was someone in high office permitted to know secrets, whereas minister was generally considered to be below the master.
This doesn't quite untangle it but I can tell you that in Britain we commonly refer to secretaries when we mean secretarial assistants (now often called a PA or Personal Assistant - organising the affairs of the person in charge). So, I suppose meanings have become confused over time, and there's a battle between acknowledging the power of secretary's etymology and the current usage. It's not a great answer but hope it helps a bit. --bodnotbod 00:33, May 23, 2004 (UTC)
A Yes Minister quote seems appropriate here-
"I am the Permanent Under-Secretary of State, known as the Permanent Secretary. Woolley here is your Principal Private Secretary; I too have a Principal Private Secretary and he is the Principal Private Secretary to the Permanent Secretary. Directly responsible to me are 10 Deputy Secretaries, 87 Under Secretaries and 219 Assistant Secretaries. Directly responsible to the Principal Private Secretary are plain Private Secretaries, and the Prime Minister will be appointing two Parliamentary Under-Secretaries and you will be appointing your own Parliamentary Private Secretary.'
"Do they all type?"
"None of them type. The secretary does that"
theresa knott 14:15, 24 May 2004 (UTC)


They aren't simply called "Secretary", but "Secretary of State for ...". There is a Usenet discussion on the same subject as your question at [8] Andrew Yong 01:03, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
Thanks, but my main question is why the commonwealth countries/former colonies haven't followed Britain and named their cabinet members "secretary of state..." --Jiang 01:08, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
Probably the same reason they haven't gone on to call their Finance Ministers "Chancellor of the Exchequer" or their Prime Ministers "First Lord of the Treasury": it's a bit pompous to use old names for brand-new offices. The office of Secretary of State in the UK is just an old office that originally belonged to one, then two people, and then multiplied like rabbits in the 20th century. Part of the reason this has happened is because of convenience: there is still in theory only one office of Secretary of State, so every time you re-arrange cabinet responsibilities you don't have to transfer the powers, because any Secretary of State can exercise them. The exception is the new Secretary of State of Constitutional Affairs, whose powers cannot be exercised by other Secretaries of State. Andrew Yong 22:32, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

A bit unrelated, but in Chile the cabinet memebers are "ministers", while their seconds are "sub-secretaries"...don't ask me why...--AstroNomer 12:13, Jun 11, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] edible Brodiaea

where ca I obtain "brodiaea" plant or seed that has a potato like tubers that are edible. It is or was used as food by some California Native Americans. I want to propigate some experimentaly.

You could put a request here: [9] I have no experience of the site, though - so you might want to navigate around it and see if it's trustworthy first. I suppose it might help others seeking to assist you if you tell us which country you live in. --bodnotbod 16:12, May 23, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "corn" in ancient Middle Eastern texts

The term "corn" is found frequently in translations of Josephus, the Bible, other documents, and clearly refers to some type of grain. "Corn" (maize), however, is native to the Americas and was unknown in the Old World until the 16th Century. What plant is being referred to in these ancient texts that has come to be translated as "corn"?

Wheat - see Corn. I guess this ambiguity doesn't exist when said middle-eastern texts are translated into other languages (like Spanish, for example). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 16:35, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
To further strengthen a point already made, see: The Straight Dope: How could the Romans use corn? It's American! -- Itai 07:08, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
Not just wheat, any grain: barley, oats, millet, rye, ... Gdr 09:00, 2004 May 25 (UTC)
Since Old English times, corn meant any type of grain. Since some time after 1600, it came to mean maize in American English, but the meaning hasn't changed in British English and even the American Merriam-Webster gives the grain meaning first http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?hw=225006. So it might be relevant to consider which country the translator came from. Spellbinder 22:55, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] how smart are you?

Smart enough to do your homework ;-) Anárion 12:16, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

Spelling inconsistencies in modern english can be attributed to the fact that the spelling used in BEOWULF was the main influence for the future pronunciation of english words True or False

Neither. The spelling as used in Beowulf was that of English at the time: a language before the corruption by Normandic French, and it was pronounced as spelt. Anárion 12:16, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

Before the great vowel shift the word right would have rhymed with what modern word... feet/tight/bait/spat or none

Right rhymed with tight, pronounced /rixt/ and /tixt/ (rhymes with German nicht). At the time English was pronounced as spelt. After the vowel shift spelling should have been reformed but it was kept at the illogical old spelling, also partially due to Samuel Johnson's Dictionary: Johnson arbitrarily chose spellings for many words. After this the spelling of English remained frozen for the next seventy years, and then again it was frozen by the Oxford English Dictionary. English has resisted most spelling reforms since, the American spelling variants such as color are the only reforms which have been moderately succesful. See Spanglish spelling for a more logical spelling. Anárion 12:16, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

Did old English have third person object forms?

As far as i know, working from memory only, yes. Anárion 12:16, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
Does wikipedia have an article on third person object forms? I, for one, don't know what one is. Mark Richards 18:26, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
Her / Him / It / Them are the 3rd person object forms in modern English, the object forms of the third person pronouns She / He / It / They. i wouldn't know what else to say on them that would warrant an article. Anárion 14:45, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
According to our Old English language article, the forms of the third person pronouns were hé, héo, hit (nominative singular), hié, héo (nom. pl.), his, hire, his (genitive sg.), hiera, heora (gen. pl.), him, hire, him (dative sg.), him (dat. pl.), hine, hie, hit (accusative sg.), hie, hio (acc. pl.). So, yes, it has both direct and indirect object forms. Adam Bishop 17:01, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] entry for Twentieth Century Fox and The Love Boat, other TV serieses

Will you please file "Twentieth Century-Fox" under "T" alphabetical word-form when doing a formal reference for this studio, since that's how they copyright their end credits, using the worded name of this studio. Thanks for putting the other studios under their alphabetical letter proper. What about a seperate underlined blue or purple entry for Battle For The Planet of the Apes and reference to it being at the turn of this (21st) century ? A bold-face "The" is needed in "The Love Boat" reference and will there be a seperate reference to "Hardcastle & McCormick" and "T.J. Hooker" ?

                        k.karpinski@comcast.net
Why not fix these problems yourself? Wikipedia:Be bold in updating pages. Gdr 10:49, 2004 May 24 (UTC)

[edit] Runic spelling of "Ragnveld"

I'm looking for the correct runic spelling of the name Ragnveld, which I'm told is the norse root of my name, Ronald. If anyone has information on this I appreciate your sharing it.

Thanks

i hope you can read Runic Unicode! You did not specify if you wanted the name itself or the more common transcription, so here's all:
Ragnveld: ᚱᛆᚵᚿᚡᛂᛚᛑ
Ragnvald: ᚱᛆᚵᚿᚡᛆᛚᛑ
Rahnualtr (actual spelling of the name from a stone near Edsjoe lake): ᚱᛆᚼᚿᚢᛆᛚᛏᚱ
Remember there was probably no 'correct' spelling in runic times, so the name may be spelt differently. ᛆᚿᛆᚱᛁᚫᚿ/Anárion 17:17, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Academia - field or discipline?

What is the difference between an academic field, and an academic discipline. I wrote a paper using the two words interchangeably, but got a comment back asking 'what is it, a field or a discipline?'

Maybe, one could argue, that a discipline is broader, rather something, than can be studied as major. Let's say, physics is a discipline, and solid state physic a field. But that might be a matter of taste. I don't see anything wrong with using the words interchangeably. Sanders muc 21:00, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
Rather, a field is much broader than a discipline, as an open plain is broader than a course of instruction. A field is an entire area or sphere of study or contemplation, a department or subject of activity or speculation, whereas a discipline is a branch of instruction, a department specifically of education and knowledge, and truly not of experience in practice. One who is learned in a discipline knows less than one who is an expert in a field. - Centrx 23:18, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The comment might also have been a roundabout way of saying "you're using two words that could have different meanings or not; if you mean one thing why are you using different words because it makes me think that they *are* two different things?" Elf | Talk 05:44, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] A third sun

moved from Wikipedia:Help desk by User:Finlay McWalter

This will, possibly, not be a simple question to answer. Assume the following:

  • One, a binary, consisting of a red giant, or a super-red giant, and a Sol type star
  • Two, a planet with Jupiter's mass
  • Three, a brown body, a planet, or proto-star.

How would these four factors interact?

I can be reached at stproof@yahoo.com. Don't hurry, please. I want to get the interaction right. Thank you.

The best place to try might be Wikipedia:Reference desk, but I'm not sure I know exactly what you mean by "interact". Yours, Meelar 19:41, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
I'm guessing that the major interaction between such massive bodies would be a gravitational one, and thus this would surely amount to a three body problem - and as such, an unpredictable (and probably unstable one). This instabiliy will, I guess, be compounded by the ongoing changes in the sun's masses (as whichever ones are burning will slowly but surely shed mass). So I don't think there's a simple, or even a single, answer to your problem, other than "chaos". But I'm not sure a circumstance you describe can arise (barring the occasional collision of solar-systems) in a single system anyway. The gas cloud from which the protostar would eventually condense would likely be blown away by the main-series star that becomes the red dwarf long before the red dwarf became so. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:07, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
Hmm, your answer has raised another question for me. We're often told that life on earth will end when the sun burns up all its fuel. But won't we lose orbit with the sun once it burns off a certain amount? Are we getting very gradually further from the sun as each moment passes due to its loss of mass over time? --bodnotbod 20:38, May 26, 2004 (UTC)
Yeah, I suppose we are moving very gradually away. But the mass loss is very small - in a stable system like ours it's not going to make much difference (we're not going to end up orbiting Jupiter or anything). Earth will be around when Sol dies, I figure. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 22:43, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
As far as I understand, orbits can be a parabola, an ellipse or a hyperbole - all these curves are conic sections. When a body gets or loses energy, speed or mass, its orbit (assuming we are talking about two bodies system) changes slightly. Right now the Earth's orbit is an ellipse and it will remain an ellipse (as Sun loses the mass) for a very long time, more and more elongating, after which it will eventually become a hyperbole and the Earth will fly away. Of course, for that to happen the Sun has to lose a lot of mass, so I agree with Finlay McWalter that the Earth will stay around the Sun as long as the Sun is here.
Pardon me if I'm stating the obvious, Bodnotbod, but it's important to understand what does "burning of fuel" means in this context. Matter does not disappear. The sun is constantly losing mass both because energy is released in the fusion processes at its core and because lighter particles escape its gravity, but most of the mass remains. Neither in oxidation nor in nuclear reactions does the least bit of mass disappear - matter is always accounted for, whether it remains as matter or is transformed into energy. -- Itai 00:23, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
In practice, I believe in 5 million years or so the Sun will turn into a red giant, engulfing the orbit of the Earth, long before the sun would have lost enough mass for Earth to lose it's orbit. -- DrBob 02:29, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Soviet military might

During its peak, was the Soviet Union's military the most powerful in the world, even more powerful than the United States military at the time?

In manpower but not in armament. Anárion 07:23, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
It all depends on what you mean by 'most powerful', by some measures, yes, by others no... Mark Richards 16:01, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
One of the measures can be success in buffer wars. Soviet backed Korea and Vietnam defeated the US, while US-backed Afganistan mujahedins (spelling?) defeated the USSR. When comparing the power you also need to consider the scenario of the hypothetical confrontation - a Soviet attack on the Western Europe, a naval war in the Pacific, a limited nuclear exchange, a US attack from the Middle Asia, etc. Some of these would be likely won by the US, some by USSR. Another way to compare them is to speculate who would be more successful defeating some third-world country, but that is not a very valid comparision. :)

[edit] why did the second Macedonian war start?

Philip of Macedon had by ~200 B.C. begun claiming land in Illyria, a Roman province. After a Roman ultimatum he instead began conquering the Hellenic city states. These Greeks called for help from their old ally Rome, and Rome responded by attempting to force Philip to sign a 'treaty' which would make Macedon a Roman province, under Galba. Philip refused, and Rome declared war.
Other reasons for the war were that Rome saw Philip as a backstabber (he had supported Hannibal of Carthage, leading to the First Macedonian War), and that Rome and Macedon both wanted to claim Greece. Anárion 07:34, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
You should add that to the Second Macedonian War article. Gdr 08:57, 2004 May 25 (UTC)
Done Anárion 09:20, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Strawberry flavouring in yoghurt

I've now more than once came across the claim the strawberry yoghurt does not contain many strawberries. The claim sounds credible because (a) strawberries are indeed to expensive when compared with the low price of fruit yoghurt and (b) in the European Union which has rather tight laws about ingredients declarations, the ingredients lists of all strawberry yoghurt brands (except one) in my local supermarket in fact sound suspicious: it says Fruchtzubereitung (fruit preparation) and natürliche Aromen (natural flavouring).

Now I remember having read that said prepared and unspecified fruit is actually some not very well knwon North American fruit which has hardly any taste of its own but a texture very reminiscent of strawberries. And the natural flavouring is claimed to be an extract from the bark of some tree species.

Anybody knows, whether this is true, and if so, which fruit, and which tree's bark is used? TIA! Sanders muc 09:46, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

According to [10], you can make artificial strawberry jam with ash gourd. Maybe that's what it is? I don't know what the artificial strawberry flavour is though. moink 00:02, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
An ash gourd is a member of the squash family; I think it has a texture rather like pumpkin, although it tasted nondescript. Rhymeless 04:06, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I agree that the strawberries in strawberry yoghurt do have an ersatz air to them, so do the lumps of 'banana' in banana yoghurt for that matter. I have examined a number of (British) pots however and their ingredients lists all proclaim authentic strawberryness. Maybe this is one of those big Euro food conspiracies, like winemakers not having to mention the dead fish and dried blood they're permitted to put in bottles without saying so. adamsan 19:10, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
Er, eh? I've never heard of this before. Dead fish and blood in wine? I got through 3 bottles this weekend so I find this ratehr alarming. Can you expand a bit please? --bodnotbod 16:00, May 30, 2004 (UTC)
It seems to me that this would depend entirely on the brand, country, etc. Consequently, it's not a very productive question, generally, unless their is some reason it would be impossible to have strawberries in yogurt. - Centrx 23:51, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] no subject

just want to say thanks for putting true information out there.

Thank you, that's very kind. Mark Richards 16:06, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Identifying a Verb

What is the grammatical or linguistic term for the verb fall in "I saw him fall"? Is it an infinitive ("I saw him [to] fall"), which is a type of verbal? Please help.

- Yes, indeed it is an infinitive. Traditional grammar would have called the construction "him fall" an accusative and infinitive and it existed even in Old English (that's as far back as 1100). It does accurately describe the phrase (accusative being the case of the object him) but it leaves a very similar English construction without a name, that where there is no accusative (i.e.object) but just an infinitive. Examples are the best way to see what's happening.

1) Neither finite verb nor infinitive has no object:

  • I helped decorate.

2) The infinitive can take an object:

  • I helped decorate the house.

3) The finite verb can have an object:

  • I saw him decorate.
  • I saw him fall.

4) Both finite verb and infinitive can have an object.

  • I helped him decorate the house.
  • I made him do it.

Of course, only certain finite verbs are capable of taking a following infinitive. Furthermore, some verbs require their infinitive to be prefixed by to, others require the bare infinitive, and the verb help is an oddity in that it can take either.

  • I helped decorate.
  • I helped to decorate.
  • I helped him decorate.
  • I helped him to decorate.
  • I tried to decorate.
  • I saw him fall.
  • I made him do it.

But not

  • I tried decorate.
  • I saw him to fall.
  • I made him to do it.

Hope this helps. Spellbinder 22:25, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Rate of Prime

What does "rate of prime plus 6%" mean when speaking of interest of an overdue payment? --Thanks, Interested

Take a look here - we could do with an article on Prime rate. Mark Richards 23:25, 25 May 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Haida mythology

Hi,

I'm writing this question from the Haida village of Kasaan, Alaska. I've been studying Haida culture for many years, and would like to know who submitted the materials from the page entitled "Haida Mythology". I do not see any sources quoted on the page. I'm a Haida, and was amazed to find this, since I've never seen the references to the gods before. I would like to write to the authors. Are they acedemics, or what?

Thanks,

Della A. Coburn


You can see who contributed material by looking at the Page History. They could be academics, or just regular Joes. I'll take a look for you. Mark Richards 23:39, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

There are several anonymous users who have contributed material, it would be hard to track them down. Of the users who have accounts, User:Elegor, User:TUF-KAT, User:Meb, User:Fabiform, User:Maximus Rex, User:Average Earthman, and User:Ausir have edited this page, although whether they contributed material, or simply re-arranged it, I didn't look. You could try asking them, or leaving a message on the talk page of Haida mythology (Talk:Haida mythology). Mark Richards 23:45, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

TUF-KAT's original version seems to have been left largely unchanged. It's not a very long article - Della, we'd be very happy if you were to edit the page and add in some more detail, references, links to relevant websites, etc. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 00:17, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
I used Encyclopedia Mythica as the primary source for mythology articles -- in all likelihood, it was my only source. At the time, that site didn't include many citations, but now has more. Some exploring over there might turn up a reference or two. Tuf-Kat 01:39, May 26, 2004 (UTC)

Della, we could really use more First Nations contributors, especially in Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic Groups. Too few of the articles on First Nations ethnic groups have any contributions or review from members of the relevant group. If you or people you know would like to get in any way involved, please feel very welcome. If I can help in any way, let me know. -- Jmabel 17:15, Jun 8, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Giraffes in Australia?

Do giraffes live in the Australian Outback?

No, only in Africa. There are, however, lots of camels, imported as pack animals from Arabia. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 01:32, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

We're the only country in the world to possess wild camels, indeed. Giraffes are limited to zoos here. The first giraffe to come to Australia was imported from Africa in 1935 to live in Taronga Zoo, in Sydney. DO'Neil 10:44, May 26, 2004 (UTC)

The wild giraffes were all eaten by the drop bears. Κσυπ Cyp 14:32, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Duration....

Hello,

Well, my friends and I have been having a discussion about drugs, and mainly meth. We all gave our two-cents worth of our thoughts, opinions, facts, etc...but one thing that we can't all agree on is the duration that Crystal Meth is in your system after you stop smoking it. I heard somewhere around a month, 28 days I believe it was, but one friend interrupted me and said that she heard it only stays in your system for approximately 5 days. So, we want the truth...If you know how long meth stays in your system please let us know.

Thank you!

Sincerely, All of us!!!

Depending on the type of meth, 4 hours to one day. But users report physical cravings (physical de-ja-vu’s) for up to a year, often intensifying at three month intervals. Anárion 15:54, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
It's silly to expect a simple answer to this question. Your body gets rid of anything you put in it gradually - I'm tempted to call it exponential decay, but it's much more complex. You can be pretty sure that if you take meth, at least one molecule of it will still be in your body when you die. --Smack 00:38, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Unless it's, say, soluble in water and not fats and did not chemically combine somewhere in your body. Then, it would not remain in your system forever because it would not deposit anywhere, right? Every cell in your body, except for some in the brain, are different, recycled after less than a decade. Your statement seems to be a broad assumption. If you mix water and oil, it does not follow that you can be pretty sure that there is some water in the oil and some oil in the water, they separate. - Centrx 00:00, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Dictionaries

Can anyone tell me how I might learn a few words in the Towa/Tewa and Jicarilla Apache languages? Are there any on-line or published dictionaries for these tongues?

--208.20.220.69 17:46, 26 May 2004 (UTC)Harold Chisamore hakchis@core.com


[edit] Scots hinder implimentation of English Law

When, if ever, have Scottish MP's hindered a Law being passed in England? In a recent conversation on politics, I was informed that while Engish MP's could not vote to change Scottish law, that the Scots could however, prohibit the introduction of new laws in England! Is this true and if so, when was the last time this ever happened? Any help you can offer would obviously enlighten me. Thank you Jan Pepper

IIRC Tony Blair only won on tuition fees because the Scots Labour MPs voted with the government when it didn't concern them. If they hadn't voted, the will of the house would have been to reject his new loans system adamsan 19:03, 26 May 2004 (UTC)


I don't know of any examples, but this is called the "West Lothian question" and was an argument against devolution for a long time. Scottish MPs are members of the Parliament of the United Kingdom and thus can vote on all laws their, including ones that only affect England, whereas the Scottish Parliament does not contain any English MPs. -- DrBob 19:16, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
It's an even more painful subject given that both Tony Blair and Gordon Brown are Scottish. --bodnotbod 20:48, May 26, 2004 (UTC)
It's entirely untrue to say that English MPs cannot vote to change Scots law, even after the recreation of the Scottish Parliament. The Holyrood Parliament only has power in limited areas, with much (one could argue "all the good stuff") reserved for Westminster. Although there is a separate Scottish legal system, most of its law continues to be made in Westminster, with the Scottish bill following the English one frequently in lock step. The West Lothian question (i.e. the question of whether it's fair for Scottish MPs to help pass legislation only applicable in England) really concerns those things that would be handled by the Scottish parliament were the matter concerning Scotland, and could be seen as an imperative for the English regions to adopt their own regional parliaments, moves toward which are afoot. It's noteworthy also that, prior to the establishment of the Scottish parliament, laws were frequently foisted upon a Scottish electorate that had unequivocally opposed them - witness the introduction of the hated Poll Tax, a year ahead of the rest of the UK, by the Thatcher government which had (if memory serves) only three MPs out of Scotland's 50+. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 20:58, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] German bearer bonds

What do you want to know about them? --bodnotbod 17:18, May 27, 2004 (UTC)

Well, just to be helpfull, I'll direct the poster to bearer bond, and take a guess that German bearer bonds are bearer bonds from Germany. Gentgeen 21:18, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Coffins

When going through a folder of old forms from a mortuary in a genealogy library, I came across a type of coffin called an "abortion coffin." This was prior to 1907(I haven't gotten any further) and it wasn't just for an infant, in fact a couple were for men. Can you help me find out about this?

I wonder if it might refer to a suicide? That's the only guess I can make. Did you ask the staff at the library? I'm curious myself now ;o) --bodnotbod 17:22, May 27, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Help with an expression?

What does the expression "angels in the architecture" mean, and what does it refer to? Is there an expression for seeing conspiracies or intrigues that aren't really there? I feel like there is an expression similar to that, or "the devil's in the details", but both of these are not quite right. It's something like "you're seeing _____ in _____", to indicate that you're seeing things that aren't really there. - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 16:37, May 27, 2004 (UTC)

This is no help, but as a piece of trivia, the phrase turns up in a Paul Simon lyric (You can call me Al) - "He looks around, around ..... He sees angels in the architecture, Spinning in infinity, He says, Amen! and Hallelujah!" - Mark Richards 17:30, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
Is this helpful? From Memento mori: "The most obvious places to look for memento mori meditations are in funereal art and architecture. Perhaps the most striking to contemporary minds is the transi, or cadaver tomb, a tomb which depicts the decayed corpse of the deceased. This became a fashion in the tombs of the wealthy in the fifteenth century, and surviving examples still create a stark reminder of the vanity of earthly riches. The famous danse macabre, with its dancing depiction of the Grim Reaper carrying off rich and poor alike, is another well known example of the memento mori theme. This and similar depictions of Death decorated many European churches. Later, Puritan tombstones in the colonial United States frequently depicted winged skulls, skeletons, or angels snuffing out candles." --bodnotbod 17:33, May 27, 2004 (UTC)
I'm pretty certain that the expression predates the Paul Simon song, but it's always used in such vague context that I can't tell what it's supposed to mean. Anyone? - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 18:27, May 27, 2004 (UTC)

Without a doubt the phrase is older than that. Mark Richards 21:30, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

--bodnotbod 01:34, May 28, 2004 (UTC)

Angels In The Architecture

This was the name of a ballet, 1992, taken from a quote by Thomas Merton as follows:
choreography: Mark Godden, music: Aaron Copland - Appalachian Spring
World premiere of Angels in the Architecture may 14, 1992 by the Royal Winnipeg Ballet. BalletMet premiere, September 28, 1995
These notes compiled by Gerard Charles, BalletMet Columbus, September 1995
Mark Godden first became acquainted with the Shakers and their lasting gifts to us by reading a coffee table book. The images from that book led Mark to find out more about these people. He visited museums and read as much as he could on the Shakers and increasingly became captivated by the beauty and simplicity of their life and the environment they built around themselves. The more he learned the more he wanted to know.
At the same time Mark became attracted to and familiar with Aaron Copland's Appalachian Spring. The most well known section of this composition is based on the Shaker melody 'Tis a Gift to be Simple, a tune also known today as Lord of the Dance.
Being the resident choreographer of the Royal Winnipeg Ballet, Mark Godden had the opportunity to use these two sources of inspiration to set about creating the ballet Angels in the Architecture. The title is derived from this quote from Thomas Merton: "... The peculiar grace of a Shaker chair is due to the fact that an angel might come and sit on it."

- Alteripse 08:07, 28 May 2004 (UTC)


[edit] How Slow Is My Modem?

I've never been able to get this straight.

I'm still using a dial-up modem (I know, I know) and it currently tells me I'm connected at 44,000bps. The article on bps tells me that a capitalised B would mean bytes and a small b bits. Now, I used to have a ZX Spectrum which had 48k of memory.

What I want to know is, am I getting about 44k a second of data down my phone line? Or is it 1/8th of that? Or something else? My guess is the 1/8th.

Because, even though I know the rest of the western world has moved on - and I shall almost certainly get broadband myself within a couple of years - I still find it impressive my phone line could load up Jet Set Willy in 1 or 8 seconds or... well, help me.... --bodnotbod 19:36, May 27, 2004 (UTC)

You're getting 44 thousand bits per second. The digital bearer that carries your modem communication beyond the local loop assigns you 64kbits/sec, but a modem can't go beyond 56000 (and unless they've changed US law recently, 53333 is the maximum legal datarate there - I don't think the UK steals that last wee bit, but I've never had more that 44k in the UK). But you're not even getting the 1/8th you're entitled to - first off you lose a couple of bits for each octet (that's telco speak for byte) transmitted, for framing. Then you're probably running TCP/IP over PPP which uses a couple of percent while you're doing bulk transfers. Oh, and that's downstream - upstream you can't get more than 64k/2 (ie. 28.8k) because of Nyquist. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 19:53, 27 May 2004 (UTC)


The 44k refers to 44 kbps, i.e. 44000 bits per second. But not that this does not mean that you get 44/8=5.5 kibibyte per second of actual data, because you loose a lot for checkbits, header information and so on.
This is all a bit confusing because the different units are by convention used to measure different things: The unit baud refers to the number of electrical signals per second. Now, you can used more signals than just on and off to transmit data (change amplitude, frequency, phase etc.) as long as you stay clear of the [Shannon frequency]]. Hence one signal can transmit more than one raw bit, and, say 1200 baud can correspond to 9600 bps, i.e. bits per second. But you use more than 8 bits per byte, because of parity checks and (sometimes) stop bits, showing where a byte ends. So, the number of bytes that actually come through the serial port of your PC, usually given in cps (characters per second) is less than 1/8th. Then, if you, say, download a file with an application like a browser, there is additional info for e.g. TCP/IP headers, but on the other hand, there might be compression. So, the rate shown by the browser, usually in KB/s (meaning kilobytes (but actually kibibytes) per second) is again some other value.
Phone lines are designed for voice communication, and the human voice does not need high frequencies to be intelligible, and hence, telecom companies usually cut off all frequencies above ca. 3300 Hertz in order to be able to multiplex (route several calls through one wire). This limits the capability to 44 kbps in practice (which already is way more than one originally expected for the 3300 Hz cutoff). Only with special line types on at least one end, the other end can get 56 kps out of a standard land line.
Sanders muc 20:07, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
OK, I think I follow as much of that as I need to to satisfy me. But let me just make sure I'm clear. When you say "I don't think the UK steals that last wee bit, but I've never had more that 44k in the UK" - that 44k is broadly analagous to the 48k of my Spectrum computer, isn't it? And the only reason it's less than analagous is that all sorts of bits of data are having to be used for TCP/IP headers and the like, which inevitably takes up bandwidth.
Have I understood that correctly? Please reassure me ;o)
I suppose that leaves me wondering what the data transfer rate of my cassette player was into my Spectrum. It took a few minutes to load even a 16k game. Anybody know the answer to that one? --bodnotbod 20:23, May 27, 2004 (UTC)
That's still 44kbits/sec - so it would take 11 seconds or so to fill your speccie's memory. Even then, you can figure out how fantastically slow that 1980s hardware was. My first modem was 300 baud (so 300 "bits" /sec, maybe 30 bytes/sec). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 20:34, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
Oh, right. I was still getting it wrong then. But now I am finally there. Thanks. --bodnotbod 01:34, May 28, 2004 (UTC)

I seem to recall that the cassette player on my BBC Micro was about 1200 baud. Mark Richards 20:31, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

Ah, interesting - but I'm not sure how much I can extrapolate from that. The Speccy was a far more humble machine (though more fun, you only really had Frak! didn't you?) --bodnotbod 01:34, May 28, 2004 (UTC)
To be fair, there was Elite, Excile, all of the speccy conversions, Repton etc, but yes, it was not a prime gaming platform! Mark Richards 21:14, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Speccy tape recorder was 1500 baud or so, I believe. Re modems, I've always heard that because of stop-bits and so on, you end up with about 10 signal bits to an 8-bit data byte. So 44000 bps is 4400 bytes/second. -- DrBob 02:31, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

On a tangent, about "the rest of the western world has moved on--" Just not true. As long as broadband is so much more expensive than dial-up (which can still be had for free or practically nothing), there will be many more people dialing up than not. Those of us in high-tech positions at high-tech companies or schools (I'm guessing the majority of wikipedians) forget that there are many low-tech people with very old computers and small budgets who can't or don't want to do broadband. I'm smack dab in Silicon Valley, but among my 150 or so dog agility club members, by far the majority use dial-up. And they're having a rough time in the universe of super-graphic, java-scripted, animated, fancy-formatted, email-intensive web sites and communication. Just worth remembering... Elf | Talk 05:10, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

Yes, fair enough. I tend to forget the other community I'm a member of is largely composed of people working in tech industries and are early adopters, whereas I'm tolerated as an amusing (poverty stricken) mascot. --bodnotbod 15:46, May 28, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Assisted fares

I am now 60 years and 10 months old and in full time employment. Can anyone tell me if I am entitled to public transport travel passes? Roy Parsons

Where do you live? Mark Richards 20:50, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
If you live in Wales, you can get a free bus pass, as everyone over 60 can have one. Arwel 21:43, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] kings

could you please settle an argument was a king beheaded in kingston and then his head was used as a football thanks

Which Kingston are you referring to? I'm assuming Kingston upon Thames, but if you can clarify that might help. --bodnotbod 01:43, May 28, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Supermarket Addresses

To Whom It May Concern,

I am an Australian Resident seeking to find out the location details (Store Address, Contact Numbers, Emails Addreses) of a few of the Supermarkets listed on one of your pages.

The Supermarkets are as follows:

France:- Carrefour at Courcourones/Paris

      - Auchan- Intermache- Super U- Casino- Leaderprice

New Caledonia:- Casino Supermarkets (May be Carrefour ...Ballande

I would appreciate any assistance you could h=give me in realtion to the above mentioned, or point me in the right direction...

Kind Regards

Heidi Johnson Secretary Windsor Farm Foods Pty Ltd

[edit] Example of a Tagmeme

Could someone give an example of a tagmeme? My dictionary defines it as "a constituent of a meaningful grammatical relation that cannot be analyzed into smaller meaningful features and that may be marked by features of word order, selection of allomorphs, agreement with finite verb forms, and elaboration by preceding adjectival modifiers."

[edit] Terror or terrorism?

Is the term "war on terror" linguistically accurate? Shouldn't it really be "war on terrorism"? Was terror misappropriated by the US/UK coalition to mean terrorism? Or has terror always been a synonym of terrorism? Or is the coalition aiming to remove all possible moments of pronounced fear from the world, period?

At terror we have it as a popular term which loosely refers to the politically-motivated violence against civilians, linking to terrorism. I guess I'm wondering if using terror to mean terrorism only gained popular usage following 9/11.

--Chopchopwhitey 07:58, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

It's really not used, with a straight face, in the UK very much. By and large, a British politician will most likely say "war on terrorism" at worst, but even that sounds gratingly jingoistic, so they won't say it often. British journalists do wryly use it, but mostly in the same ironic way they'd use "evildoers". So I think it's just a front on GWB's war on grammar. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 11:12, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

"Terror" is an older term now styled "Terrorism":

  • "The Terror" was a period (of brutal suppression of reactionaries and other opponents, rather than of hit-and-run attacks) in the French Revolution. (Which needs to be reflected in Terror.)
  • Lenin quote (sorry, no orig. citation) is sometimes now translated/reworded as "purpose of terrorism".
    • Pre-9/11 essay intro'ed as follows: "This country quivers so - - Fear itself rewards terrorists; for, after all, the purpose of terror is to terrify and thus capture attention. By Daniel Schorr "
    • Lenin attrib in 2nd 'graph of book review.
    • (I swear, Isaac Asimov also used the quote in a 1960s-or-earlier pseudonymous SF juvenile, my guess is with the "terror" wording.)

--Jerzy(t) 14:46, 2004 May 28 (UTC)

I don't agree with Finlay McWalter's statement that British journalists only use it ironically; just a quick google shows that both the BBC and The Times use War on Terror to summarize all the related news items: BBC[11] and Times [12]. I think he's right about British politicians though; since the controversy about what's the right title, they'll probably err on the side of caution. Of course, if you want to be really correct, you ought to call it The War on the Terrorism that We Disapprove Of ....since the NSOED defines terrorist (after the French Revolution sense) as A person who uses and favours violent and intimidating methods of coercing a government or community. which seems to cover those American warders in Abu Gharib nicely. <Runs and ducks for cover :) > Spellbinder 15:18, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

All I can say is--these are--ah--interesting times here in the U.S. Elf | Talk 19:39, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
I think that for the most part Brits use it to refer specifically to GWB's enterprise, because that is his term, and seen there to be his 'war'. I havn't heard any British politicians use it with a straight face, apart from Blair of course. Mark Richards 16:04, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
Yeah, I think that puts the journalist usage perfectly (would that I'd expressed it so well). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 16:27, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] locate rare book

Hello

I am trying to locate a copy of the book, Les Fetes Nationales a Paris, by the French anti-Semite Edouard Drumont. Unfortunately the book is currently missing from the NYPL. Do you have any suggestions where I might find the book to purchase or at another library in the USA? Many thanks! Dr. Laura Morowitz

There seems to be a copy soon to be auctioned here:[13] (item 222), and a RLG Eureka search lists copies at:
  • Getty Center Library - CJPA
  • University of Southern California - CSCW
  • Yale University Library - Yale University Libraries - CTYA
  • University of Iowa Libraries - IAUG
  • University of Chicago - ILCG
  • Princeton University Library - NJPG
  • International Institute of Social History - NLIG
  • Columbia University Libraries - NYCG
  • Metropolitan Museum of Art Library - NYMA
  • New York Public Library - NYPG
  • Canadian Centre for Architecture - QMCA
Hope this is useful -- DrBob

[edit] Requesting update on B&B info.

Would much appreciate names and phones of Bed and Breakfast Reservation Agencies for Washington State (or Nation wide). Martha Watson Murphy mentions the "Bed and Breakfast Reservation Center Nationwide (ph. 1800 388 4403" in her book "How to Start and Operate your own Bed and Breakfast". But this number is no longer in service.

Thank you for your kind attention.

Always love, light and laughter;

Leticia Huber (leticia@loshuber.com)

A tourist information office might be able to be more help than we would be - you could try that, otherwise I am sure there is an association of hotels and B&Bs. Mark Richards 21:15, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Dandelions or dandelion lookalikes?

I have been searching to discover any dandelion species that may be what I have in my garden. It is 54 inches (4.5 feet)tall as of right now and seems to be growing consistantly. It has about ten buds that look almost identical to dandelion flowers heads when opened...during the noon hours. Then close back up at night. It is a tall stalk and the leaves pertrude out I would say between 5-6 inches. On the edges and tips of the leaves are pricklys that prick only when touched on the right angle. If you have any information on what this may be or if you know please contact me at strawbryshrtck42@aol.com

What country do you live in? -- sannse (talk) 19:28, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Why isn't Prince Phillip, King Phillip?

Going by logic, the queen's husband is the King. So why Mr Phillip isn't a king? Nichalp 19:07, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

According to http://www.royal.gov.uk, "A king takes precedence over a queen. Therefore if a situation existed where there was a Queen Regnant (a Queen reigning in her own right, like our current Queen), then her husband would not be styled as king, to make this point clear. Where a king reigns, his wife would be styled as 'Queen' (technically Queen Consort), as the king would clearly be the person that held the throne." Adam Bishop 19:12, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
So if a queen rules, technically there is no king?
Yes, by definition, if there is a king he rules. For a queen to rule there must be no king. -- sannse (talk) 19:27, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
Consider the Queens Regnant that we've had:
  • Mary Tudor -- married Philip of Spain, but he never spent any appreciable time with her.
  • Elizabeth I -- unmarried, so the question didn't arise.
  • Mary -- was co-monarch with William III; uniquely they were both reigning monarchs.
  • Anne -- husband was Prince George of Denmark, who had several British titles including Duke of Cumberland, but was never king.
  • Victoria -- her husband was famously known as the Prince Consort, Prince Albert.

-- Arwel 22:36, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

It's not just Kings and Queens - while a woman marrying a man with a British title automatically acquires the female form of that title (if one exists), it doesn't work the other way around (yes, it's sexist, but that's the way it works). The wife of The Earl of Shrewsbury is The Countess of Shrewsbury, but the husband of The Countess of Mar (who holds that title in her own right) is not The Earl of Mar. (Perhaps confusingly, the husband of The Countess Mountbatten of Burma is The Lord Brabourne, but he holds that title in his own right.) The wife of Sir John Smith is Lady Smith, but the husband of Dame Jane Smith is just Mr John Smith, unless he has a title himself. To take a famous example, when Margaret Thatcher became The Lady Thatcher, her husband did not become The Lord Thatcher, but remained Sir Denis Thatcher, Bt. Exactly the same principle applies to the monarchy - The Duke of Edinburgh had to be specifically given all his titles, because he wouldn't acquire any on marriage to The Queen. Proteus (Talk) 23:00, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

What does the 'Bt' after Dennis Thatcher's name refer to? --bodnotbod 16:16, May 30, 2004 (UTC)
Baronet. - Lee (talk) 16:24, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] British Olympics

The UK fields a united Olympic team, but separate teams for Cricket, football and rugby. Why not a unified cricket team OR team England competing in the Olympics?Nichalp 19:21, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

Because there is a British Olympic Committee. The other sports are organised by the individual component nations (except that in rugby, all of Ireland both in the UK and the Republic field a unified team; and the "England" cricket team includes Welsh players). Arwel 22:40, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
The corollary is also true - the UK doesn't field a football (shudder "soccer") team in the Olympics They're convinced that FIFA/UEFA will say "hey, if you guys can send a unified team to the Olympics, why can't you play a unified national team all the time?" - and the three smaller nations don't want to lose their opportunity to get knocked out of the World Cup early in their own right. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 22:47, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
They also fear that they'd be forced to merge the different football associations, meaning only 1 vote in FIFA and UEFA rather than 4, and no more being able to block changes to the laws of the game through the International Football Association Board. Basically the negatives outweigh any positive outcomes. -- Chrism 12:45, May 30, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Fish and chips

Corretion to Fish and Chips: I have lived in England for over fifty years and eaten Fish and Chips all over, I have never heard of anyone using "Onion Juice" I think either someone is pulling your leg or they have missunderstood, We do eat Pickled Onions with Fish and Chips. --anon

be bold. --anon 2
Hmm, I'd be shy of removing that. There seems to be an astonishing degree of regional variation of what we brits put on our chips. I've not heard of it either, but that doesn't mean Cornwall or Shetland or Guernsey isn't awash with onion-juiced chips. I'd ask on Talk:fish and chips. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 20:49, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
Well I've been bold, because I'm reasonably sure that whome ever wrote "onion juice" meant the vinegar that is left in the jar of pickled onions after they've all been sold. It's certainly the tradition round here (London) to put that on chips. theresa knott 01:35, 31 May 2004 (UTC)
How barbaric :) -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 01:47, 31 May 2004 (UTC)
Russian alcoholics often drink pickle juice in the morning to alleviate the effects of excessive alcohol consumption the previous night. --Smack 00:38, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] How to enable math rendering?

Hi

I've set up a couple Wiki's (MediaWiki 1.25) myself, and need to do some math in one of them. I'm having a fight getting math rendering enabled - I think this should be documented better (or even simplified) - was thinking that it'd Just Work, but it sure doesn't. Am out to enable it in my Wiki on SourceForge in particular - that's hard 'cause I have less access than at home - and on my home Wiki as well, that's just quite a bit of work.

Phew. Hope it'll be easier in the future :)

Frodo42 20:30, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

It's rather hard, if memory serves. I think asking on wikitech-l is probably more likely to find those who've done it. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 20:42, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] HIlton family

My name is Darcie F. Hilton-Sniegiecki and I can remember my dad speaking about a Gus Hilton. My Father's names is Duff Fenimore Hilton. My Grand father was John Presley Hilton. I think my Great Grand Father is James William Hilton. I know it was William for sure. My dad is still living and claimed that we were kinned to Conrad Hilton. My Grandfather (John Presley) and Conrad were cousins". My Grandfather was suppose to have helped Conrad in Construction work on the first Hilton Hotel. This was in West Texas. My Gradfather lived in Arkansas and then moved to West Texas then to Almagordo New Mexico where he and my Grand Mother Hilton died. They called my Grandma Hilton "TANK" She had a temper. Grandpa showed Dad where the money that had been stolen back long ago from some kin folks of Conrad's in the New Mexico Mountains. My dad and his dad hunted these Mountains as my dad was a young boy. It is my dad's dream to go locate this money for historical reasons. This money is untouched today sitting in the New Mexico Mountains where my Father hunted as a child. Dad said it was down in the bottoms where His dad and him would hunt. I think it would be neat to recover the Hilton Stolen Money. It was Stolen from some Federal Bank Many many years ago. My dad is 63 and this was when he was extremely young hunting with his dad in the canyons. I have been trying to contact the Hilton Family just to see if these stories are true.

[edit] Carboxyhemoglobin

Does anybody know what carboxyhemoglobin is?

Sure thing. It's hemoglobin with bound carbon monoxide. --Diberri | Talk 05:30, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

But what are the effects of having carboxyhemoglobin?

In large quantities, death. In smaller quantities, oxygen deprovation. The hemoglobin bonds to carbon monoxide preferentially to bonding to oxygen, so effectivly a carboxyhemoglobin will not release the carbon monoxide, and therefore will not be available to transport oxygen from the lungs to the rest of the body. However, an animal, like a human, should survive very small ammounts of carboxyhemoglobin in its blood with very little or no effects. Gentgeen 06:07, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Quesions on Mexico

Two related questions on Mexico I can’t find an answer for:

  1. )Was Mexico part of any Empire in the period ~1750–1850?
  2. )Were there muslims in the Central Americas (Mexico mainly) at the time, possibly as traders?

Thanks in advance for any help. Anárion 13:29, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

per History of Mexico, part of the Spanish empire until 1821 (ish) -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:51, 31 May 2004 (UTC)
Thanks! Additional q: was 'Spanish Empire' a name used by the Spaniards/Mexicans back then? Anárion 09:44, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Bladder extrophy

(moved from "Bladder extrophy", which was then deleted.)

HI, I am a parent of a child born with extrophy of the bladder. I would like to hear from other parents of children born with this odd and frightening disorder..Aside from physical,It has affected not only just our child but his father,myself and his brother. Would like to hear from someone else and how it has affected their lives as well.. Thank You, Alicia alwaysforever24@yahoo.com

This is an encyclopedia rather than a discussion forum. That said, your best bet for making a connection would be to look up the relevant article (cloacal exstrophy) and put your note on the talk page. Spelling it right might also get you more Google hits for real communities. Best wishes. Alteripse 20:58, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

Your medical practitioner can likely put you in touch with support groups for this - Bladderexstrophy.com/support also seems like a good shot for a first try. Mark Richards 15:48, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] How to create an ngo

I would like to have some detailed information on how to create non governmental organization. This may include like how to register for, where to register it and what things should be done first before reaching the final process of registering. 152.163.252.198

The answer to that heavily depends on which part of the world you are from and what is your objective. Chancemill 14:57, Jun 1, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Mdash in page titles

Does the new software officially support Unicode in page titles now?

It seems to work, more or less:
Wikipedia:Sandbox/TestingMdash—TestingMdash
Wikipedia:Sandbox/TestingMdash—TestingMdash

Wikipedia:Sandbox/TestingNdash–TestingNdash

Wikipedias in some other languages have to use Unicode in their page titles... but is it fully supported for the English wikipedia now?

[edit] Stress mark on Cyrillic letters in Wikipedia now display incorrectly

Ever since the latest software for Wikipedia was introduced a few days ago, combining diacritical marks don't work properly on Cyrillic letters anymore (using Internet Explorer and Windows XP).

Consider:

fóobar

The above is written not with the ISO-8859-1 character ó but as f- o- U+0301 o- b- a- r, where U+0301 is the combining acute accent. This correctly displays the acute accent over the first o.

Now consider the same thing in Russian:

фо́обар

This incorrectly displays the acute accent (stress mark) over the second о rather than over the first (using Internet Explorer and Windows XP).

This screws up a number of pages where Cyrillic is given for a person's name (eg Josef Stalin) with combining acute accent to indicate which syllables are stressed.

Now here's the odd thing. This can't be Wikipedia's fault, since viewing page source shows that it is simply outputting the same Unicode that was input on page creation. It must somehow be a Windows XP or Internet Explorer issue. Yet this used to work... it used to display correctly until the new Wikipedia software was introduced a few days ago, and I haven't upgraded Windows XP or IE in any way since then.

How can this be?

I think this is the verdana bug User:Monedula reported - see the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump#Russian accents warning -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 01:35, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Yes, you're right. The Verdana font is the culprit. Non-Verdana works fine:
English: fóobar
Russian: фо́обар
What an astonishing screwup by Microsoft. This will of course affect any other language that uses combining diacritics.

[edit] World War 3

I am glad world war 3 never happened, but curious to know why the Soviet Union never invaded Europe.

It was (allegedly) NATO policy to use first-strike battlefield nuclear weapons should the red army breach the Fulda Gap (or cross the Rhine, depending on who you believe). It was Soviet policy not to get nuked. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 01:39, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I doubt you can call this an "(alleged) policy". It was rather assumed to be unavoidable. I know about this because I recently read the article on nuclear warfare which is highly recommendable to anyone interested in why the cold war stayed cold. Maybe it would be nice to better crosslink it with other good articles on the subject (e.g. mutual assured destruction, links in nuclear strategy etc.) and make it a featured article. Sanders muc 16:18, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

There were also mixed opinions in the SU about whether invading Europe would be a good idea, even if militarily possible. Mark Richards 15:45, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, like, how many potatoes and tractors does one country need, anyway? Sheesh! --bodnotbod 20:05, Jun 1, 2004 (UTC)
Without a nuclear response by NATO, the Soviet's would have had an easy time invading Western Europe during the "major conflict", at least without a significant lead time for NATO buildup with forces from elsewhere in the world, right? - Centrx 00:14, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] uss new orleasn lph-11

what dates and time did the uss new orleans recieve there miltary awards and why.

A war ship goes on dates? And there? where? (could not resist). Check here: [14] Anárion 13:32, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Latin America

How come Latin American nations do not develop and prosper? Chile and Argentina are rich in natural resources yet they still are third world countries. Will Latin America ever develop like Europe and Canada and the USA?

Actually, many latin-american countries (Argentina, Brazil, and Uraguay in particular) used to be comparatively more weathy that they are now (and technically they're all second-world countries). The latter half of the twentieth century wasn't kind to much of south america, as most suffered from a succession of tin-pot military dictators (whose accession and maintainance many credit to the US' desire for a communist-free hemisphere, manifest by an unfettered CIA). These guys are mostly gone now, and much of latin america is undergoing the (painful) progress of "structural adjustment", the modernisation and restructuring of their economies. Most are doing a lot better than they used to do. And don't discount Mexico, the western-hemisphere's tiger economy. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 02:25, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
There is also a strong school of thought that the nations of South America are poorer because they listened to the World Bank and the Western developed nations telling them how to get rich. I can't point you to a reference offhand. DJ Clayworth 15:47, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
In addition, there's an anthropological school--check out Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond. And also, some people say that the problem is the lack of proper infrastructure for investment--you can't mortgage a house you don't have a title for. For this view, read The Mystery of Capital by Hernando De Soto. Best, Meelar
Diamond makes a good case for explaining why South America didn't colonise Europe in 1492 (I particularly like the "north-south Vs east-west oriented continents" thing) but their comparative decline since WW2 is outwith his ambit. The gap between Diamond's explanation ending and the CIA-worldbank axis-of-stupid theory (DJ and myself) starting is about 500 years, most of which is the imperial phase. I'd be interested in reading a comparative study of the effects different empires had on their colonies. While the Roman Empire seems to have left a rather handy legacy, Reg's question "What has the Spanish Empire ever done for us" might not be so funny. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 16:53, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
True, it's been years since I read Diamond. OTOH, some of his climactic stuff might still be applicable--didn't he say something about tropical diseases that might have hampered people well past ancient times? And of course the Spanish empire...Meelar 15:45, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Scandinavia

I just traveld to Norway about a week ago and I noticed that the Scandinavians are very white and pale. How come scandinavians have extremely light skin color to the point that some of them look like albinos?

read about that in Melanin (although every Scandinavian I know takes six mediterranean holidays a year, and are consequently the colour of cricket balls) -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 02:26, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Here is a fuller account, from a Scientific American article:
Skin Deep; October 2002; by Nina G. Jablonski and George Chaplin; 8 page(s)
Among primates, only humans have a mostly naked skin that comes in different colors. Geographers and anthropologists have long recognized that the distribution of skin colors among indigenous populations is not random: darker peoples tend to be found nearer the equator, lighter ones closer to the poles. For years, the prevailing theory has been that darker skins evolved to protect against skin cancer. But a series of discoveries has led us to construct a new framework for understanding the evolutionary basis of variations in human skin color. Recent epidemiological and physiological evidence suggests to us that the worldwide pattern of human skin color is the product of natural selection acting to regulate the effects of the sun's ultraviolet (UV) radiation on key nutrients crucial to reproductive success.
From Hirsute to Hairless: THE EVOLUTION OF SKIN PIGMENTATION is linked with that of hairlessness, and to comprehend both these stories, we need to page back in human history. Human beings have been evolving as an independent lineage of apes since at least seven million years ago, when our immediate ancestors diverged from those of our closest relatives, chimpanzees. Because chimpanzees have changed less over time than humans have, they can provide an idea of what human anatomy and physiology must have been like. Chimpanzees' skin is light in color and is covered by hair over most of their bodies. Young animals have pink faces, hands, and feet and become freckled or dark in these areas only as they are exposed to sun with age. The earliest humans almost certainly had a light skin covered with hair. Presumably hair loss occurred first, then skin color changed. But that leads to the question, When did we lose our hair?
Regards, Alteripse 02:47, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Is there a WAP version of Wikipedia in production or progress ?

Yeah, or a version that is more friendly to PDAs and phones. Kent Wang 01:41, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I have a feeling you can download a compact database dump for use on a palm or somesuch? Mark Richards 17:50, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia:TomeRaider database -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 19:41, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Hmm, the TomeRaider takes up 180 MB, and is static. Is there any work being done to make a WAP or J2ME interface to Wikipedia? If there is not yet, I am extremely interested in working on a project like this, and have WAP and J2ME experience. Who would I contact to start a project like this? - DropDeadGorgias (talk)
I suspect that the page will look okay on larger-screened cellphone and PDA devices via their service-providers' HTML->WAP bridges (as it looks and works fine on text-only browsers). I don't know whether there's any move toward direct (unmediated) WAP access in mediawiki - you should probably ask on Wikitech-L. I guess it wouldn't be terribly hard to write a proxy that takes the raw wikitext (there's an export option in mediawiki) and boils it into whatever format a cellphone wants. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 18:05, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Right, the reason why i think it should be specifically wap versioned is that the wap version should be a read-only version of wikipedia that will throw away a lot of the information that isn't necessary for cell phones. There's a lot of overhead on a normal wikipedia page that can be done without, i.e. all the editing tools, user preferences, etc. I'll ask on Wikitech-L, though. Thanks! - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 18:23, Jun 3, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Moved from St. Olmet

St. Olmet

I am looking for information on a person--a saint-- called St. Olmet. We live in a village in SW France called Olmet. I recently discovered that in the 17th century it was called "ST. OLMET" . Does anyone have further information? Are there other sources?

Thank you

Dale Egee egee.art@btinternet.com

'Saint' in a name doesn't always refer to a person. In Britian you will sometimes find old churches called 'Saint Cross' or 'Saint Sepulchre'. Saint just means 'holy' (as in 'Holy Cross Church'). If 'Olmet' means something that might be an explanation. DJ Clayworth 16:02, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
There's of course plenty of people who have ever been made Saints by the Roman Catholic Church and if there is any saint called "Olmet", he should appear on the official list of all saints, which is easy to find by Googling. I just checked and it seems that there is no St. Olmet, at least no Catholic one. Sanders muc 16:22, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Fortran question

Does the most recent version of the Fortran programming language allow embedded spaces in identifiers like the older FORTRAN IV did? - Bevo 19:39, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

According to my copy of Structured FORTRAN 77 for Scientists and Engineers, 4th Edition, D.M. Etter, Benjamin/Cummings 1993:
Each variable must have a different name, which you provide in your program. The name may contain one to six characters consisting of both alphabetic characters and digits; however, the first character of a name must be alphabetic. (p. 26)
I don't know much about the history of FORTRAN; i.e., I don't know if FORTRAN IV predated, succeeded, or was another name for FORTRAN 66, but it looks like embedded spaces, if they were ever supported, were gone by the time FORTRAN 77 was standardized. I never got any personal experience with FORTRAN 90 but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have (re-)introduced whitespace characters as legal in identifier names, including variables. --Branden 08:16, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Fortran IV was an early standardization. And in all True Fortran from the early days, spaces were of extreme irrelevance. There is a classic trick question, to interpret the statement
     DO 10 I = 1
which looks like a DO statement that's missing essential data and ought to be an error, but is in fact a valid assignment of the value 1 to the variable DO10I . But of course this doesn't answer the question about current Fortran. I'd bet with Branden that if embedded spaces were not allowed in 77, they surely weren't re-introduced in later versions; but ancient history is all I know about Fortran. Dandrake 17:24, Jun 17, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Frozen Windows

What are the common causes of a computer running Windows (98 if being specific helps) freezing? That is, no blue screen of death, no reboot, just a complete freeze that leaves you reaching for the power/reset switch?

Please can we take the answer: running Windows as read? ;o) --bodnotbod 22:51, Jun 1, 2004 (UTC)

Well, reinstall windows, as it has so many undebuggable failure modalities that only a rebuild is worthwhile. If the system still sticks after that, it's probably hardware: memory fault, memory corruption, cpu fault, nasty bus interlock snafu (sick PCI device). In practice, a bad hard drive controller (which magically goes away while you're doing pagefile stuff) can also do this. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 23:15, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

How often does it freeze? Is the fault replicable? Can you 'cause' it to hang? Mark Richards 23:18, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I would guess it would be a memory leak - 98 was rather leaky, from my experience w/ it and from what I've heard. Is this during work, or after you've left the computer alone for a while? Dysprosia 23:55, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I guess everybody has their own unique Windows moment of infamy ;) Wierd as it seems, there is another possibility. Check your motherboard and make sure the CPU fan is functioning normally. Overheated processors crank up just like that and everything just freezes like a painted desktop on a painted monitor. Oops, sorry Windows brings poetic nostalgia in me:) Chancemill 13:06, Jun 2, 2004 (UTC)
Other hardware problems like hard disk read failures usually result in some kind of error popups, before going down. A complete freeze (you dont see the mouse move, there is no pixel fade/refresh) almost definitely indicates trouble with your processor/memory assembly and probably nothing with your Windows installation. Chancemill 13:15, Jun 2, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for all the replies. Somebody used the magic word overheated. I had originally phrased the question to include the fact that it was VERY hot and humid in my room that day - but I didn't want to lead the jury and thought it would be interesting to hear all the possibilities. Hmmm... guess I ought to look at the fan, it's probably clogged up with dirt. --bodnotbod 17:28, Jun 3, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] is the platypus the only poisonous mammal?

is the platypus the only poisonous mammal? Kent Wang 23:38, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Apart from [insert most loathed politician], you mean? Mark Richards 23:40, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I realise this sounds like it's from Monty Python (or even Thrud the Barbarian) but no, there's also Blarina brevicauda, the short-tailed shrew - [15]. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 23:53, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Thrud the Barbarian! My God! There's a name I haven't heard in over 15 years ;o) --bodnotbod 09:01, Jun 2, 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Question for a native Japanese speaker

Can someone who knows Japanese please tell what the Kanji on this picture is? →Raul654 04:39, Jun 2, 2004 (UTC)

It's 'kotobuki', meaning 'long life' or 'longevity'. Written in print like this: 寿 --Auximines 08:07, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] december 23, 1948

Just a guess, but Jack Ham was born, or Hideki Tojo died, right? If you were looking for something else, please let us know.

I will like the Bielefeld white pages, I need only that "Cors" letters. Thank you

[edit] family peters

can anyone help me find the family of my dads sister winnie peters maiden name morgan.its been 57yrs since i have seen any of my aunties and ive been trying along time ,i now live in the nederlands and i would like to find them before i get to old as im now 64.so if anyone can help let me no .they lived in st ives and my uncle was lost at sea .thank you joyce van der hoeven-morgan e-mail hoeven174@hetnet.nl


[edit] Triangle Perimeter

Hello, I have an obtuse triangle. I know the lenght of the two shortest sides, I'm trying to calculate the lenght of the longest side. It's been awhile since high school, can anyone help?

If you know one of the angles (preferably the one opposite the longest side), you can use the law of cosines to calculate the length you need. Otherwise, you don't have enough information. -- DrBob 20:19, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Isn't the sum of the squares of the two shortest sides equal to the square of the hypoteneuse? Or is that only for some triangles? Mark Richards 00:07, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
That only works for right angled triangles - see Pythagorean theorem -- DrBob 00:13, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] What chemicals are these?

C12H18CI2N2O I would like to find out what these are.

Assuming it should be C12H18Cl2N2O, it could be any of a wide variety of isomers with that chemical formula. One possible match is clenbuterol, but it could be lots of other things also. -- DrBob 22:56, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] power projection

Only 3 nations have the ability to project military power anywhere in the world, the USA, Britain, and France. But how exactly does a nation project power? Is it by its navy? How come big military spenders like Russia and China lack the ability to project power around the world? - Anonymous 1

The ability to project military power anywhere in the world is governed by three key factors, that is:
conventional forces whether they be land, sea or air forces;
the state of the econonmy and whether the country can afford the war and the impending occupation;
and the role it carries in World politics and whether it can justify itself without disapproval and criticism from countries around the world and remain largely uninfluenced by foreign opinion.
Today, there are perhaps six powers that can exert power anywhere around the World, these are:
the United States.
the United Kingdom.
France.
the Russia Federation.
the People's Republic of China.
and possibly, Germany.
-Anonymous 2
You are incorrect about Russia and China, Anonymous 2. Russia's military and especially it's navy are in a very poor and unmaintained state. They don't have the resources or capacity; they cannot exert military power anywhere in the world. China's military is very focused on its continental forces. Their navy does not really have "blue water" capability. It is entirely focused on defending the mainland. I don't know about the military capacity of Germany, but they have in the past been very careful NOT to exert military power because of the Nazi past. Please do not assert such blatantly false things. These countries are powerful because they have the hearts and minds of many people, not because they can directly exert military force. The only "military force" they have is nuclear weapons, but that is only useful for defense. It does not work, at least in today's world, to threaten a region with nuclear attack to get it to do what you want.
As far as I know, the first poster is correct in specifying those three countries, and of course the U.S. eclipses the military strength of those other two, especially in its navy.
To answer the question, yes it is largely naval power that helps a nation exert military power, especially the aircraft carrier. First though, I stress that the U.S. military in general is well beyond that of any other country, in terms of financial investment, training, and technology. Working with other nations in multilateral military engagements is often a problem because of this. The U.S. Navy is unmatched by any other in the world and could defeat the navys of Britain and France put together. Indeed, because of its overwhelming success, the functions of the U.S. Navy are always transport and providing a launching pad for missiles and aircraft. Important factors other than the navy are long-range bombers and bases around the world. The U.S. can bomb any place in the world in a rather short period of time by launching aircraft from the U.S. mainland. New technology is going to decrease the amount of time between launch and bombing further and, if I remember correctly, the U.S. will be able to bomb any place in the world within 10 hours of launch from the U.S. mainland (that is a conservative number from member, it's likely less). The U.S. also has bases around the world from which it can launch ships and aircraft, as well as provide a staging point for ground troops and exerting influence on the region just by the presence. These bases are being scaled back, though, in favor of a force that can rapidly mobilize to various places in the world, without having stationary bases that stew American resentment, provide a target for terrorism, and herald to the days of static force deployment. - Centrx 00:45, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Is it Great Britain, Britain or the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

I was trolling around "Recent changes" and ended up finding not one, not two, but three changes Bobblewik had made in articles which used the term "Great Britain" to "Britain".

So what is the correct term you say? That's what I'm asking too, and I'd like to hear your opinion on it too.

The formal name of the country is not England or Britain or Great Britain, it is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, so to an extent both terms were wrong, even the one by Bobblewik, but why is Bobblewik changing them all to "Britain" instead of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain"?

I'd like to hear Bobblewik.

Our friendly Scottish (herein lies a hint) Bobblewik has been taken to task about this before, in April, see User_talk:Bobblewik. Pcb21| Pete 11:35, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I'm dissapointed that the correct expression, Greater Scotland Co-Prosperity Sphere, seems to have fallen from favour. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 16:46, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The distinctions here are gone into in great length on United Kingdom, Great Britain etc etc. For the larger political unit, UK is the preffered very short term, United Kingdom otherwise, British an ok adjective form. Of course, if you mean Great Britain instead of the UK, then use that. Mark Richards 15:01, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The United Kingdom of Great Britain has never existed, which is why that article redirects. The Kingdom of Great Britain has not existed since 1801. "UK" is the correct short name of the state, "British" is the usual adjective (unless you are referring to Northern Ireland from an Irish nationalist point of view), and if you're not being pedantic "Britain" and "Great Britain" are usually viewed as synonymous with "UK". Strictly "Great Britain" refers to the largest island, and often the small islands surrounding it too; "GB" are the identification letters carried on the back of all UK cars travelling abroad, and "G" is the country's prefix on aircraft registrations. -- Arwel 15:46, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Indeed. Mark Richards 17:42, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I always though the Britain came from Bretange(?) which is the french name for Brittany in NW France. But I'm not sure.. if this is right then calling Great Britain "Britain" is definitely wrong, even though "British" refers to GB pretty much exclusively! Chuq 02:11, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)

"Britain" and "Brittany" have a common etymology, from the ancient Britons. One does not come from the other. -- Jmabel 03:10, Jun 6, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Prawn Crackers

I've Googled and it tells me "Real Prawn Crackers are made from Starch, Prawns & Salt". Are there any other snacks that have a purely starch base? I'm assuming prawn crackers are fried, am I right? If so, what does starch look like beforehand? Is it like a flimsy pasta-like substance? Does starch contain gluten? This is a lot of questions, isn't it? --bodnotbod 19:38, Jun 3, 2004 (UTC)

If 'shrimp chips' are what the Americans call 'em then this recipe may help adamsan 20:07, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I hazard a guess that all manner of snacks are pure starch: yer regular potato (crisp) is starch. In modern industrial terms, it tends to be granular, shipped around in tankers, and modified seven ways to, umm, whatever, by big wholesalers such as Cerestar (the link is to their glossary, for no good reason). "Cerestar products extend from regular and modified starches through glucose and high fructose syrups to maltodextrins and spray-dried glucose syrups, dextrose, sorbitol, mannitol, maltitol, xylitol, erythritol, cyclodextrins, wheat gluten, maize oil and animal feed ingredients.". Mmm. I'm licking my lips. How about you? That said, food always was physics: The Thermochemical Joy of Cooking. --Tagishsimon
Starch is a white glucose polymer that looks exactly like white flour. In the US you can buy 1 lb boxes of cornstarch cheaply at the grocery for thickening gravy, etc. It has a taste like unsalted saltine crackers melting in your mouth-- not objectionable just not very flavorful. There is no protein and no gluten and there shouldn't even be any fructose in it. It is eaten by the tablespoonful every few hours by people with type 1 glycogen storage disease. Starch is also the major component of (surprise!) "starchy foods" like potatoes, rice, pasta. In the US it has become the new food villain... but that's another story. Alteripse 18:12, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Thanks Tagishsimon and Alteripse. Yeah, the gluten thing was part of my curiosity - I'm coeliac. But I kind of knew they were gluten free since they didn't... well, I'll spare you the details. But, OK, potatos are starchy... but are you saying that British crisps are gerneally not sliced potato, they're reconstituted, ground down potato? --bodnotbod 23:39, Jun 4, 2004 (UTC)
British crisps are regular potato slices - you can see the structure of the cut tuber. American crisps come in a comically limited range of flavours (no cheese and onion, no hedgehog, no tomato sauce, no worchester sauce) so who cares what they're made from. Seriously, the few recognisable crisps you'll find there also bear the telltale signs of vegetal imperfection. Pringles clearly are made from reconstituted potato powder. Factoid: pringles are moulded in miniaturised versions of machines that make paperboard nappy (diaper) liners, hence that groin-ey shape. More "advanced" crisps (roysters, mccoys, ruffles, etc.) are also made from a potato paste. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 00:07, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
(I forgot: it get worse) No smokey bacon. Bloody hopeless salt'n'vinegar, and (believe it or not) no prawn cocktail. How can any country call itself civilised when it doesn't have prawn cocktail crisps? It's like the bloody stone age. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 00:11, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Don't dis' our chips! I personally have had American potato chips in cheddar, sour cream, monterey jack cheeses; baked potato; steak & worcestershire sauce; bacon and cheddar; steak and onion; dill pickle; ketchup; chesapeake crab seasoning; salt & pepper; salt & vinegar; onion; salsa; chile and lime; hot pepper; and at least 10 different types of barbecue flavors, and I'm sure some more will come to me as I think about it. (Not all were edible of course.) What've you got to match our chip-of-the-month club?[16]
We'll match your junk food and raise you any time you want! Bring it on! We thought you guys were still learning to tell the difference between a biscuit and a cookie. Alteripse 01:36, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The trouble is the american ones actually taste something approximately like what it says on the packet. All those british flavours (containing no hedgehog, gammon, cheese, or prawn respectively) are probably made with E-numbers that are illegal in the US, either because they give you brain cancer or because they can be used to make nerve gas. Heck, if I wanted the flavour of a real prawn I'd eat a prawn ! Anyway, one can't get Irn Bru anywhere in the states (except allegedly Texas, but I never found any). You may have worse obesity problems than us, but we win hands down on tooth decay. I'd leap with nationalistic pride, but my bones seem to have turned soft. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 01:47, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)


You jest opend mah cultural horizuns. I can't believe no one markets Irn Bru over here. Mebbe we cud git the dentists to start importing it? Alteripse 01:58, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I understand that the Czech-influenced parts of Texas (oddly enough) have stores that will sell Irn Bru. Rhymeless 03:52, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The British Food Center in San Mateo, California sells it for $1.50 a can. It tastes like bubblegum. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 02:03, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
You know, comparing it to liquid bubblegum just sorts takes all the appeal away. Thanks, I can go on living without it. Alteripse 02:19, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I appear to have started a transatlantic scoffing war. --bodnotbod 15:21, Jun 8, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Looking for a name for a style of novel

Is there a name for a kind of novel where the plot is advanced via letters, notes, announcements, etc? I'm thinking of novels like The Color Purple or Up the Down Staircase. Joyous 22:01, Jun 3, 2004 (UTC)

That would be an epistolary novel. Pamela was one of the first such. - Nunh-huh 22:05, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Dracula is another well known example. Mark Richards 23:44, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Thank you so much! Joyous 00:09, Jun 4, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] 1st Earl of Essex - Capel or Capell?

While working through TB's misspelled links list, I came across some links to the (non-existent) article Arthur_Capell, 1st Earl of Essex, with the suggestion that perhaps they should point to our article Arthur Capel, 1st Earl of Essex. Fair enough, simple misspelling. But a bit more research reveals that the situation might be more complicated. Our article (with the spelling "Capel") is from the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, so might presumably be expected to be right. However, I found this page which spells his name "Capell", citing their source as "Cokayne, G.E.; Vicary Gibbs, H.A. Doubleday, Geoffrey H. White, Duncan Warrand and Lord Howard de Walden, editors. The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom, Extant, Extinct or Dormant, new ed.. 13 volumes in 14. 1910-1959. Reprint in 6 volumes, Gloucester, U.K.: Alan Sutton Publishing, 2000."

How can we figure out which is right?

The name shifts back and forth from Capel to Capell. Strict orthography is a modern thing, and not something the Earls of Essex were much concerned with, as they wouldn't use a surname after becoming earl. CP list the Earls of the 1661 creation as:

  1. Arthur (Capell)
  2. Algernon (Capell)
  3. William (Capell)
  4. William Anne Holles (Capel)
  5. George (Capel-Coningsby)
  6. Arthur Algernon (Capel, afterwards Capell)
  7. George Devereux de Vere (Capell, formerly Capel), etc.
    - Nunh-huh 03:54, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

P.S. I hope we have an account of the death of the 1st Earl in the Tower of London.... Lord Ailesbury wrote: "The Earl asked very coldly for a razor to cut his nails, and being accustomed so to do gave no manner of suspicion. He went into a small closet," where his servant afterward found him "dead and wallowing in blood"... the assumption being that the reason he "cutt his own throat with a knife" was because of his knowledge of the Rye House Plot.

My suggestion would be to create it with the Capell spelling and create a redirect to if from the Capel spelling. - Nunh-huh 03:54, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, you're a champ! I will do that. Sadly, we only have a fairly dry Britannica 1911 account of the 1st Earl's death. —Stormie 05:51, Jun 4, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Boxcar exploded view drawings

Where can I find free online exploded view drawings for boxcars and other railroad freight cars?

That kind of talk will get you investigated by the Department of Homeland Security. Sorry I don't have a useful answer; I am just completely certain that some moron in government with far more chest-thumping patriotism than brains has done something precisely that stupid. I know they've come close [17], but that was probably more a case of malice than stupidity, sadly enough. --Branden 08:28, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Linux Distributions

What is the best Linux distribution? (BSD Included) Although there is much discussion and debate about this, and although it may be as stupid and pointless as choosing arguing for a best colour, I want to see your opinions anyhow. :)

What is the best Linux(BSD) distribution for:

Personal Desktops:
High performance and stressful use. (Gaming, RAM management, etc)
AFAIK there is no Linux distribution that is any good for gaming. ;) Mark Richards 18:22, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Medium-to-low performance and stressful use. (Checking e-mails and word applications)
Workstations:
Single.
Networking and compatability.
Webservers:
Stability, reliability and security.
Compatibility and simplicity.

and generally for:

Security.
Stability.
Ease of use and simplicity.
Features and functions.
Programming, Scripting, Development.
Gee Whizz. You might as well ask a crowded sports bar who the greatest football player of all time is! From my occasional dips into Slashdot I inferred that Debian has a reputation for sturdy, Volvo-like reliability, OpenBSD has a really quite impressive security record, Gentoo is popular with the hardcore if only for its customisability and exclusivity and Redhat, Mandrake and SuSE all claim to be user-friendly as well as corporate compatible and all of the above. Being rather dull, I went with Debian in the end on my server PowerMac and haven't had a reason to change. *Cue impassioned discourses by Solaris users* ;-) adamsan 21:18, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Off the top of my head:

Security/privacy: NetBSD or the NSA's distro of Linux. The NSA distro has been peaked up and repacked by others as Ashcroft-proof linux.
Compatibility and simplicity - Knoppix, no question. →Raul654 21:25, Jun 4, 2004 (UTC)
NSA does not have a distribution of Linux. They have modified several base libraries and tools on Linux to add special security features (for NATIONAL SPECIAL SECURITY EVENTS, nah), which are available on many distributions. - Centrx 00:52, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

You may also want to do a search on LinuxQuestions.org, where variations on this question have been raised thousands of times, with more than enough ensuing discussion to keep you reading for weeks :-) -- Wapcaplet 22:56, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] obsolete stringed instrument similar to Cello but higher pitch

hi, I'm looking for information of the above name subject. I think the name is an Appegioni. created for a Schumann concerto.. not very sure, but Pablo Casals played it before..

anyone with an answer please email me at alyky0201@yahoo.com

Moved from Wikipedia:Help Desk - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 16:34, Jun 4, 2004 (UTC)
I was poking around Category:String instruments and I saw the Viol, could this be what alyky0201 is looking for? Is there a musician in the house?- DropDeadGorgias (talk) 17:35, Jun 4, 2004 (UTC)
According to this site, an Arpeggione is a bowed version of the guitar, invented in 1823 by Johann Georg Staufer. The sonata was Sonata for Arpeggione and Piano D821, by Franz Schubert. (emailed) Catherine | talk 20:10, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The viola da gamba was my first thought (higher pitch than cello, unfretted, bowed, and placed between the legs to play) but apparently Casals specifically (and idiosyncratically) played concertos written for the viova da gamba on the (lower pitched) cello.... - Nunh-huh 21:12, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It's the arpeggione, as Catherine says. Just for the record, Schumann didn't write a concerto for the arpeggione (hardly anybody wrote anything for it) but did write a cello concerto; "viola da gamba" and "viol" are essentially different names for the same family of (fretted) instruments; and the bass viol has about the same pitch as the cello, so Casals wasn't being that idiosyncratic, really (other cellists have played things originally for the bass viol on their own instrument--Janos Starker recorded the Bach sonatas, for instance). --Camembert

[edit] I resent the new Phantom Link setup

  • I've noticed that all the phantom links in the English version of Wikipedia are new little red question marks and, to put it flatly, I hate it. Who would I see to request that they be put back to the old way? I really wish the people in charge here would stop messing around with the 'look'. -Litefantastic 18:07, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I think that changin your skin in the preferences section should deal with this. Mark Richards 18:19, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
You need to check the box in "Misc. Settings", for underlined broken links, which is checked by default. - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 18:23, Jun 4, 2004 (UTC)
You have plenty of options for changing your skin preferences (which is a lot more than most websites would give you). If you don't like any of them, you can completely rewrite your own style preferences by editing your monobook.css style sheet (see m:User styles for how to do this; basically, all you have to do is edit User:Litefantastic/monobook.css). Also check out the gallery of styles showing some of the variations you can create. Letting every user have complete control over the appearance (to them) of Wikipedia is, in my opinion, better than trying to find a single format that everyone likes. Remember, you are just as "in charge here" as everyone else is! -- Wapcaplet 23:07, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Also, please note that the best place for this type of question is Wikipedia:Help desk. Meelar 23:14, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Laptop Turned On 24/7

Is it harmful to a laptop if it is turned on 24/7 for days or even weeks, without rebooting or giving it a rest (turning it off) every now and then? Will this tire the laptop out and make it more problem-prone?

Thanks.

As long as the laptop, or any computer for that matter, gets proper air circulation, it should be okay. On the other hand, putting the laptop on a soft, plush (i.e. carpeted) surface that restricts air flow may cause it to overheat, and get damaged. The other factor to consider is the power supply: you want to use a surge protector, especially if the lights in your computer-room tend to dim when a large appliance is turned on. Sags and surges are nasty for computers and can gradually wear them down. The laptop's battery supply might help protect it from sags (not 100% sure about that), but it has no protection against power surges/spikes. Also important, btw, is the operating system you're using. I've seen solid systems running Linux stay operational for over a year without any problems. Some/many versions of Windows, on the other hand, can get quite sluggish without an occasional reboot (this also depends on what kind of programs you're running.) Lastly, sometimes you *must* reboot, if only to let certain software updates (say, new Windows security patches) take effect, but again, that's mostly a Windows-issue. Krupo 14:07, Jun 5, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] use of the bagpipe in the Church of Scotland

I would like to know how the Church of Scotland uses the bagpipe in their worship services, if at all. Are they mainly used for processionals and recessionals? Are they played outdoors or inside? Any help would be appreciated. Thank you!

Janet Johnson jj7@nesbeonline.com

They're rarely used, and if so either at a funeral (most commonly at the graveside) or occasionally to pipe a bride into a wedding or the married couple out - with the piper outside the church doors (both of these are rare). So neither could really be said to be part of the service, and a normal Church of Scotland service will be accompanied only be a normal pipe organ. The Great Highland Bagpipe is just too damn loud to play for a protracted period indoors anyway, and is stuck in an single (unfortunate) modality (making it rather inflexible for playing hymns etc.). The GHB is fundamentally a military instrument, so you're considerably more likely to find it at military gatherings, including things like Remembrance Day ceremonies at a cenotaph. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 23:34, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
It may be an urban myth, but there is a story that bagpipers were banned from some London parks through the use of a law prohibiting weapons practice! Mark Richards 17:40, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The history section of bagpipe says something about bans, although not quite what you mean. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 23:31, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Haya

Comment, and discussion, moved to Talk:Languages in Star Wars by Finlay McWalter | Talk

[edit] Africa

Since when has Egypt ever been considered apart of Asia?

When did this occurrence happen? I always thought it was apart of Africa.

Moved from Wikipedia:Help desk by Meelar

Most of Egypt is in North Africa. The Sinai Peninsula, however, is part of Asia. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 01:16, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Looking for interest in "alternatopia" as opposed to "eternatopia"

Alternatopia is one way of thinking about utopia. Most utopias are conscious "eternatopias" where change, once instituted, will never happen again. Alternatopia is the kind of place where alternate visions of what is acceptable exist comfortably with notions of what has always been. The difficulty of alternate versions of today conflicts with today always being the same as yesterday and will be the same tomorrow.

Aaron Schectman Prof. Emeritus Monmouth University Ed.D Rutgers 1972 Master's thesis and doctoral dissertation on Education in Utopia.

If they do not already have articles feel free to add them. see: The Welcome Page --bodnotbod 00:19, Jun 11, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] barnards & simonds furniture makers

info re{ the above manaufacturera. i found a leather covered club chair. the color is a dark tan with nailheads, arms and a wood insert in the back of the chair. if you can help i would appreciate it i would need to reupholster parts of the chair and would like to keep it true to the original. thank you in advance. my email address is dlrob55@yahoo.com

[edit] MP vs MHR?

MP=Member of Parliament MHR=Member of the House of Representatives

I have had someone remove all references to Category:Australian MHRs from articles because, "they are called MPs". (Never mind the fact that if you believed that, changing them would be less work - why would you delete them...)

As MHR isn't listed in wikipedia, its a bit hard to do an exact comparison with these. All the google searches I have done [18] [19] [20] have found pages which use the terms interchangably. I figured as the category is for members of the Australian federal government lower house (the House of Representatives), MHR would be more specific than MP - an MP could refer to any member of any Australian state parliament's lower house as well, for example.

I just found this in States and territories of Australia: "Premier of Queensland - The Honorable Peter Beattie MP (ALP); since June 1998"

I also found List of post-nominal letters which specifies that MP refers to the lower house only - but it doesn't specify the Federal lower house only.

I'd like confirmation from someone else in the know before I ask the user to undo his handywork. Chuq 02:44, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The terms "Member of Parliament" and "Member of the House of Rrepresentatives" are not synonymous. The House of Representatives is only half of Parliament, so Senators are MPs as well. However, the term "MHR" is commonly replaced by "MP". Also, the term "MHR" is exclusive to the Federal scene, since state lower houses of Parliament are (as far as I know) generally called Legislative Assemblies (so members of the state lower house are "MLAs"). In my opinion, the category should be named either "Australian MPs" (and include Senators, but not have a separate "Australian Senators" category), or be named "Members of the Australian House of Representatives" (which seems far too long), and have a separate "Australian Senators" category. - Mark 04:03, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Senators may be members of a house of Parliament, but they are not Members of Parliament. This is the same in the US and the UK (and AFAIK throughout the English-speaking world), where Senators and members of the House of Lords are not Members of Congress / Members of Parliament. Andrew Yong 23:18, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Oh, but were it that simple. In the US (federal level), Congressman/woman/person is generally synonymous with Representative, but, when traveling as a group on official business, the term "Congressional delegation" is used for both Reps and Senators. Also, if a person has served in both houses, it is common to say "so and so has been a member of Congress for n years". And from the British TV I've seen, and looking at Canadian politicians Web sites doing research for Wikipedia, MP (I assume for Member of Parliament) seems commonly used, 'though I admit I am not clear if it is limited to just the lower house. This page seems to imply that federal usage in Australia does use MP formally for members of the lower house, and Senator for the upper[21]. Canada fed home page uses "Your MP" to get to links to members of both houses[22]. Niteowlneils 17:31, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
"Member(s) of Parliament" or "MP(s)" is a specific phrase which always excludes members of the upper house in the UK, and I have not known of any exceptions in other Commonwealth countries. Usage is very clear in most Commonwealth countries, because members of the lower house (and they only) are known (e.g.) as "John Smith MP" in writing. However, I admit if you split the phrase and say "Member of the UK Parliament", it would be unclear what you meant. If you wanted to exclude members of the upper house, you would say "United Kingdom Members of Parliament" or "British MPs" etc. If you wanted to includes members of the upper house you would need to use phrases such as "members of either house/both houses of the UK Parliament", "members of the UK legislature", "UK legislators", etc. Andrew Yong 13:04, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
There's a lot of good stuff above (but a fair bit of waffle as well). In the Australian Parliament, members of the upper house are Senators, and members of the lower house are Members of the House of Representatives, or MHRs for short. But the post-nominal letters they use during their term of office are not MHR but MP. It is never correct to say, for example, the Hon John Howard MHR, but the Hon John Howard MP. This was a decision by the government of (I think) Andrew Fisher (Prime Minister at various times between 1908 and 1915), which copied the practice of the British House of Commons. Of course, Senators are also members of the parliament, but it is not usual to refer to them as 'MPs' because of the obvious scope for confusion. Neither do senators have any post-nominals, instead they have the pre-nominal title 'Senator'.
In the State Parliaments, there is a variety of other usages, not all of which are acknowledged by the federal government. For example, within NSW-specific contexts, members of the NSW Legislative Assembly (the lower house) use the post-nominal letters MP. However, when the Prime Minister (say) writes to a member of the NSW lower house, he usually calls them 'Joe Bloggs MLA', not 'Joe Bloggs MP'. This is a terribly confusing and elitist practice, but one which has been in place for a long time. JackofOz 09:03, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I forgot I posted this (quite a while back, before the server outages). While I still personally believe the term 'MHR' is the least likely to be ambiguous (it is specifically the lower house of the federal parliament), I'm not going to bother to update articles that will be reversed (not edited, but deleted completely). Hope these answers will be of use to someone! Chuq 09:53, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Separate-sex in Chess Tournaments

Why are there separate games for women guess players at an international level? Isn't chess all intellectual and not physical (like sports)? Why the segregation? The famous Judit Polgar refuses to play at women-only games, for example. Isn't her point that women-only games are pointless since they could compete in "men's games" and achieve as well, if not better, than men?

Thanks.

This is more a debating topic than a question we can answer here, but there are probably women-only chess championships for the same reason there are women-only lawn bowls and darts championships.
Why? Because they're sexist? - Centrx 00:56, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Technical / Website Writing Software. Kindly recommend a Free Software

Prof. Gerald Sussman and/or company, I'm from Gifam.org. Cd someone recommend me a Free Software that can perform equivalent to Adobe Framemaker? Practically for creating and formatting online directories and composition like Wikipedia and printed technical manuals. Adobe Framemaker is very expensive. Thankyou all. Warm regards, TERakarpo

We're not Prof. Sussman or in any way associated with him. If I understand your question correctly, LaTeX, and some of the tools that use it as a backend, provide many of the capabilities of Framemaker. They are quite different in design, however, to Framemaker. --Robert Merkel 03:55, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Falcone, Count of Angers

In 1096, Pope Urban II presented a Gold Rose to Falcone, Count of Angers. Who was Falcon, Count of Angers

We know what Angers is. If you can read French, try the official website (link found at the bottom of the article). --Smack 18:00, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I imported the Golden Rose article from the Catholic Encyclopedia, but while he does mention this, no description of the recipient is provided. -- Itai 21:04, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
It's also entirely possible that Falcone was just the guy who happened to be Count of Angers at the time, and it may be that nothing more is known of him (but this is still more info than is known about many other medieval people). Since it was Urban II in 1096, it may have had something to do with the First Crusade, or maybe Falcone was a particularly loyal supporter of the Papacy against the Holy Roman Empire, or against the antipope of the time...who knows. Adam Bishop 16:30, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Is dandruff contagious ?

As the article states, various things can cause dandruff. seborrheic dermatitis and psoriasis are not contagious. However, I did some reading a little while ago about staph and strep (both mentioned in the dandruff article) in relation to dermatitis and I got the impression that most people are carriers of the bacterium but those with conditions which cause the skin to flake (like those I've just mentioned) are responsible for spreading the bacterium widely in a community. However, I seem to remember that spreading the bacterium does not spread dermatitis (and, by extension, a flaky scalp). I believe those suffering from dermatitis do tend to have higher incidence of staph and/or strep infection, though. But it would be nice if someone with more expert knowledge could confirm that.

Looking at the question another way: lets imagine that dandruff is contagious. I would then expect to see campaigns in our schools about scalp hygiene in the same vein as we have in the UK about lice and I would expect people with dandruff to be far more outcast and shunned than they are. --bodnotbod 18:49, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks bodnotbod for the response. I've copied over this discussion to Talk:Dandruff. Jay 07:48, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Invite Scientists to publish their research papers

There is a discussion about charging scientists a fee to publish their research in journals, with the idea of reducing the cost to the journal subscribers. It seems crazy to me that scientists should have to pay to increase the world's knowledge base. I'd like to suggest that Wikipedia should actively welcome scientists to publish their work on this site. It seems an ideal place where their research can be peer reviewed and disseminated to the public as fast as possible. I think Wikipedia should suggest their services to the scientists via forums, emails, or whatever other method is most appropriate.

Knowledge should not be throttled back by greedy scientific journals, who would unfairly burden scientists with fees and profit from their work.

Wikipedia is, by longstanding tradition, precisely not a place for original research, and throwing it open without having a good capability for peer review would effectively invite in every crackpot in the world who can't get his/her work into peer reviewed journals. On the other hand, I can imagine a separate wiki-based project having great potential for this sort of thing, making the peer-vetting even more transparent than in conventional journals. It would have to work quite differently from Wikipedia, though: you wouldn't want a general ability to edit the articles themselves, just to comment, and you'd want some way of credentialing at least one class of reviewers. -- Jmabel 18:51, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)
There seems to be a lot of controversy currently about how research should be disseminated and where the costs should lie. See: [23], [24],[25], [26] : all stories from my favourite British newspaper The Guardian. Perhaps it would be better to wait til the dust settles? --bodnotbod 19:07, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)
I think that Media Wiki should create another wiki- website for original works like how bout' 'Wikiorginal' or some name like that, It could have original research, original books and esasys, It'd be awesome. But it's true that you shouldn't put original research here 'cuz it's supposed to be an encyclopedia, not many encyclopedia's publish original stuff like research. -Aaron Einstein (talk)
Not to be picky, but the body that owns wikipedia's servers is wikimedia whereas the software that runs wikipedia is mediawiki (clever name choice - not!). Wikimedia is perpetually starved of resources (read: servers and stuff like that) so I do hope they don't add any more services until that's fixed. Also, Mediawiki's charter (which I can't find right now) says stuff about publishing stuff under "free licences" (not necessarily GFDL, but some free equivalent). My understanding is that most university-produced academic papers (even those by students, even undergrads) is owned (wholy or jointly) by the university - this may well be an issue were Wikimedia to take this route. Still, the Mediawiki (ahem) software is freely available, so some kindly university could easily set up a ResearchWiki. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 19:43, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Yeah, but I'm not sure how useful the Wiki concept would be in a setting like academic papers, where the emphasis is on original authorship etc. Probably easier for universities to just give free web hosting for papers--any system they come up with won't really be a wiki. Meelar 19:47, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
That did occur to me, but I thought "hmm, I've sounded negative enough already, I'll let some other heartless beast deliver the coup-de-grace to this idea" ;) And you never know - they said (I imagine) that an encyclopedia couldn't be written this way, maybe (limited) collaborative writing (particularly for distributed research team) might work for academic papers too. Or maybe a blog would work? -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 19:58, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Ya I have to admit now that you put it that way, Original work wouldn't do so well on a Wiki system. But if you were to use a sort of modified wiki- system that didn't allow you to make edits to the author's original work without there permission (with a couple exceptions). But then again it's still farfetched. -Aaron Einstein (talk)
See some of the links on Collaborative writing to see what some universities are saying about this. (And contribute to the article while you're there; it could use some help before being printed in the WikiReader project...) Catherine | talk 03:33, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Further to this discussion, there are already a number of moves to provide free access to scientific materials, but it's a more complex issue than just provide a free web server. Most academics already have access to that! Journals serve a number of purposes; they provide a chaff filter, a copy editing service, a way to establish credit for innovation, and a long-term archiving system, and just putting up a web server isn't enough to do those tasks. Nevertheless, there are a number of projects actively addressing these issues. There is arxiv.org, a huge collection of papers. In the medical field, there is The Public Library of Science, which aims to free content by altering the financial model of journal publishing; accepted authors pay a fee to publish. There is the Science Commons, an embryonic initative from the Creative Commons people. Finally, efforts to reform journals from within have begun, with notables such as Donald Knuth agitating (initially quietly, but now in public) for such.
Given the number of initiatives in this area right now, I'd think Wikimedia can safely wait and see what happens. Those interested in this area can contribute within the frameworks mentioned above, or, if they're senior scientists, start rocking the boat on the editorial boards of the journals and conferences they're involved in. --Robert Merkel 01:31, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Surname information

The anonymous user 205.188.117.14 created an article with the following content. I deleted the article and moved its contents here. – Jrdioko (Talk) 20:14, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I am seeking information on the Euchner surname from the Oberboihingen region around the 1800-1860. My G-G-Grandfather John was born about 1839 and imigrated to US possibly about 1854. Any connection to parents or siblings would be of assistance. I can be contacted in the US at email chas7116@aol.com. Thank you

We get a lot of geneological (sp?) queries, and I think we rarely give a worthwhile answer. Perhaps we should compile a page with a list of geneological resources and discussion sites, to which we could redirect such inquiries? Comments welcomed. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 20:31, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
As an amateur genealogist (well, more the son of one who's trying to learn the family obsession), I would be happy to assist someone in putting something together. In my spare time, I do try to do some google-snooping for questions like the one above to see if I can track down some instant hits for them. But I suppose resources would be better...teach a man to fish and all that... Jwrosenzweig 22:09, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
We really need to make a wiki or wikiproject, some such, for genealogy. The number of requests, and deleted pages for surnames, etc, is getting silly. Rhymeless 03:25, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
One place to refer people to is Cyndi's LIst of Genealogy Sites on the Internet. No need to reinvent that wheel. Another few for royal/famous genealogy are An Online Gotha, Worldroots, and Genealogics, and of course there are commercial sites such as Ancestry.com. A wiki-project would be nice to see, though one open to all would, I believe, quickly become worthless. - Nunh-huh 04:02, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Genealogy currently looks more useful than a slap in the face with a wet fish as it stands. Perhaps the above links could be added to the external links that are already there? --bodnotbod 00:24, Jun 11, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Forgotten word...

Some time ago, I believe I stumbled across an article explaining a technical term for errors introduced deliberately into encyclopedias for the purpose of catching plagiarism. But I can't for the life of me remember the term itself. Anyone know what on earth I'm talking about? -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 23:16, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I've seen copyright trap used. — Matt 23:27, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The article in question may have been Nihilartikel, which I made the initial (and dismal) attempt to translate from the German Wikipedia. Jwrosenzweig 23:30, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Shame on you, Jwrosenzweig! You beat me to it to within an Edit Conflict. Oh, well. Anyway, कुक्कुरोवाच, if you're interested in this sort of thing, a similar concept is described at [27]. -- Itai 23:33, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Ah, excellent! Thanks, all. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 23:35, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Grr, I have a similar (and probably less tractable) forgettitude. I while ago I read of a system (developed by CIA or NSA or some other shadowy TLA) that took plain text documents and produced a number of variants. Each variant meant the same as the original, but each was subtly different (e.g. variant #1 says "General Orlovsky has a brown dog", variant #2 says "General Orlovsky's dog is brown" and variant #3 says "General Orlovsky has a brownish dog"). Confidential documents could then be run through this, and the variants distributed (with a record kept of who got which one). Later, should one of the variants be given to the enemy, and then an agent within the enemy's organisation reveal it back to the origin, the origin could see which variant had been leaked, and this figure out who the mole was in their organisation. I dimly remember this being called something like "document weirding" or "document whitening", but neither seems to be right. Ring any bells? -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 23:47, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Ooo...cool and evil. --Menchi 03:28, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I think something similar to this sort of ploy turns up in a Tom Clancy novel, supposedly invented by Jack Ryan (Patriot Games, perhaps?). Though of course it may have been independently invented in real life, too. -- DrBob 16:03, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Irish tenor

What is an "Irish tenor"? Is it just a man who's Irish and sings in the tenor register? Or is it a specific voice register? Or someone who sings a particular kind of music? I've found lots of references to "Irish tenors" on Wikipedia, but no explanation of what the word means. --ESP 04:17, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

As far as singers go, an "Irish tenor" is just an Irish tenor (like John McCormack). There's also the "Irish tenor banjo", which is distinct from the ordinary tenor banjo by virtue of it being tuned G-D-A-E rather than C-G-D-A. --Camembert

[edit] Wikipedia on Pocket PC

Hello

When I am loading the wikipedia page on a pocket PC, the search field doesn't even show up... it would be very handy, if the main page was simpler, so that also thinner clients could properly display it. Or if there was a "KISS" (keep it simple and stupid) version of the search page (such as google has), for search only purposes using wikipedia from mobile devices and thin clients.

Thanks for all your work and contribution.

Martin

Are you browsing using the "pocket IE" that ships with Windows CE (connecting to the regular wikipedia website) or using the offline Tomeraider database (using the tomeraider program)? -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 17:54, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
There are both text free and table free versions of the main page, the former probably answering to the KISS criteria, the latter probably not useful for you but updated as frequently as the main page (indeed, is simply a table free version of the main page). If the search field does not display properly, don't use it. The syntax for the URL of Wikipedia articles, is, as you probably noticed, "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<article name>" (without the quotation marks and brackets, obviously). And if the current skin does not work out for you, try switching a skin (I think you have to be logged in to do so). If you want even more replies, by the way, I suggest you'd copy this thread, along with both answers, to Wikipedia:Village pump, where it will probably fit in better. -- Itai 20:46, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] List of US radio and/or television stations by call letters

Does anybody know of a website which lists all US radio and/or TV stations by call letters? I'm writing a story and I want to use call letters that haven't been taken. RickK 23:47, Jun 10, 2004 (UTC)

The FCC is responsible for doling out the US portion (as the national delegate of ITU-R). You'd think their site would have to have a list (not that I've found one yet - will keep looking). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 23:51, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I found a "query" page, which should meet your requirement: http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/callsign/prod/main.html -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 00:00, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
So, I guess if I put in a call sign and it tells me to send them my email address for a reservation, that means that those letters don't exist as a valid call sign? When I put in a call sign that actually existed, it came back with the location. Thanks! RickK 04:32, Jun 11, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Pronounciation of Polish names

Can anyone give me a hint on how I can approximate the correct pronounciation of the names of these Polish cryptographers: Marian Rejewski, Jerzy Rozycki and Henryk Zygalski? Thanks! — Matt 08:51, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC) Also...Biuro Szyfrow... — Matt 15:29, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

More of an intersting note than great help. But I watched a documentary on Spontaneous human combustion and one of the victims was named (on the narration) Beatrice *Oz*kee. I was dutifully sitting there with my notepad thinking I'd get some stuff to put on WP and I kept saying to myself but how are you spelling that?.
Fortunately they showed a police document with the name on after some tense minutes and it was "Oczki". Pronounced as Wizard of Oz plus key in the lock with the stress on the first syllable. --bodnotbod 13:58, Jun 11, 2004 (UTC)
Heh, I'm glad I'm not the only one who now watches documentaries with the aim of writing up an article... — Matt 15:28, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
That would be "MAH-ree-ahn re-YEV-skee", "YER-zhee ro-ZYTS-kee", "HEN-reek zyh-GAHL-skee". And "OCH-kee", not OZ. Architeuthis 15:37, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Thanks, Architeuthis; I was certainly way off the mark with all of them...(just to check, -ZYTS- rhymes with "kites" not "zits", right?) I should add these to the articles themselves, on reflection. — Matt 15:59, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I speak Russian, not Polish, but I'm 90% sure that it's pronounced like 'zits'. --Smack 17:40, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Oilers'/Oylers(sp?) disc

Just had a children's science programme on the television where they had something called (don't know the spelling) "Oilers' disc". It resembles a very large coin. They spun it and it settles like a coin too, except it takes much much longer to come to a stop. And as it does so the speed of its rotation increases and you get a pleasingly high pitched sound before it finally comes to a stop. I want to know where to get one (it looks like a great toy) and a bit more about them. --bodnotbod 15:27, Jun 11, 2004 (UTC)

Don't know anything about them, but I'd guess from the pronunciation it should be "Euler's Disc" (it's pronounced "oiler"). A google search turns up several different places to buy one. -- DrBob 15:46, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Yay! Thanks Dr. Bob! --bodnotbod 21:55, Jun 11, 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Pipe Trick Peter

Categories. Toole, Peter O' or O'Toole, Peter? --bodnotbod 21:55, Jun 11, 2004 (UTC)

O'Toole, Peter. On a related note, von Ribbentrop would be in Ribbentrop, but where to file bin Laden or ibn Saud? -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:59, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Cheers! --bodnotbod 23:51, Jun 11, 2004 (UTC)
Chicago Manual of Style suggests that Arabic surnames prefixed by al or el (elements analagous to the French de or German von) are alphabetized under the element following that particle; names beginning with Abu, Abd, and ibn, elements analagous to Mc or Fitz, are alphabetized under those elements. Thus: Hakim, Twfiq al-; Jamal, Muhammad Hamid al-; Abu Zafar Nadvi, Syed; Ibn Saud, Aziz. - Nunh-huh 23:47, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Thanks. Given that alphabetic catagorisation seems to be the in-thing for people to do this week, I think the info you describe should be in some wikipedia standard somewhere. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 00:02, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
If you can figure out a place for it, I'll add more to it from Chicago. Different rules for different nationalities...-- Nunh-huh 07:31, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] BlackBerry Processor

I know that RIM does not release the processor specs for any of its handhelds, but has anyone done any benchmarking of the performance of JAVA apps on BlackBerry vs. Palm or Pocket PC handhelds? Does anyone know what the processor might be? - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 23:40, Jun 11, 2004 (UTC)

This [28] looks like it should help, but appears broken. Mark Richards 23:46, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Deep-Ocean Life

How can relatively large biological organisms (fish etc.) exist in deep oceans. I know that shrimp, and some sole, survive at the bottom of the Mariana Trench - with over 108.6 MPa of pressure. Is it due to them creating a large surface area? --Oldak Quill 14:14, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

They don't experience any force due to that pressure, because the pressures inside their bodies and outside are equalised. Indeed, when animals from the deep ocean are accidentally trawled to the surface, the pressure inside their bodies (now opposed by the lower pressure at the surface) destroys their tissues and kills them. This is just the same for your body - right now it's exerting 101.3 kPa outward, and if you were placed in vacuum this is enough to cause damage to the capillaries in your skin and do horrible things to your lungs. Size and surface area are irrelevant. By contrast, people in bathyscapes and submarines are in real danger of getting crushed by those titanic forces of which you speak - because they're keeping a volume of space at a lower (standard-atmosphere) pressure than the surrounding water - so there's an imbalance of pressure, and thus the water exerts a crushing force on the hull. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 14:32, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Could, then, a Homo sapien-like animal be made - which looks like a Homo sapien but has a bodily pressure of 108.6 MPa - hence could survive at the bottom of the ocean with no protective wear? Are there any features which are necessarily different due to the pressures - why do we not see particularly large fish at the bottom of oceans? --Oldak Quill 15:03, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I suppose so (it's called pantropy) - the hard part is making "aquaman", while making "aquaman" into "hadoaquaman" is probably relatively straightforward (don't try this at home, kids). One doesn't see large (or many) hadal or hadopelagic organisms mostly is that there just isn't much to eat down there. It's damn cold down there, which is probably the biggest change. I don't know what cellular-level adaptations deepwater animals have, but I don't think it's very drastic. You should ask User:Hadal, our bottom-feeder specialist. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 15:35, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I should point out that 1 ATM of pressure (the internal force of the human body) is not very much. Imagine swimming under 32 feet of water - that would produce 1 net ATM (2 external - 1 internal) of pressure on the human body. Not a lot, right?
The same thing applies to space. There have been some fictional depictions of people being sucked out into space and exploding because of the pressure difference. This simply would not happen. There was an experiment at the Nasa training facilty in Texas where someone was in a vacuum chamber (the vacuum was a better vacuum than space) and his suit leaked. Among the other things that happenned where is tongue swelled, his saliva boiled away, and he passed out after 30 seconds (the human body carries 30 seconds worth of dissolved oxygen in the blood. You don't get anything from your lungs because they are immedealty evacuated in a vacuum - the muscles there are very weak). →Raul654 15:49, Jun 12, 2004 (UTC)

People don't have a lot of trouble with pressure in the sense that you mean it, because water (the body is mostly water) is incompressible for all practical purposes. The issue is with gases in spaces and in solution in the body. Pressure changes wreak havock on these. Mark Richards 03:02, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Cessna 182

I am a modeler. I would like to make a Cessna 182 and 172 or 177 cardinal scale model. Does anyone know where I can find three-view outline drawings of these models? best regards, a.alp ülgener aulgener@hotmail.com

[edit] Hormones of the pancreas

Moved here from Talk:Endocrine gland

what hormones do the pancreas produce

The endocrine pancreas secretes glucagon (alpha cells), insulin (beta cells), somatostatin (delta cells), amylin (beta cells), and pancreatic polypeptide (gamma cells). There may be a few more that I can't remember off the top of my head. --Diberri | Talk 17:30, Jun 12, 2004 (UTC)
Also galanin, gastrin-releasing peptide, neuropeptide Y, neurotensin, peptide YY, and thyrotropin releasing hormone. In addition, the fetal pancreas also makes gastrin, secretin. So thank your pancreas for all its hard work. Alteripse 18:56, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] history search request

Good Afternoon, I recently purchase a large cooker/steamer at an auction with "C.F. Yount, Farmland, Indiana" stamped into the lid. I tried to research but have found little information. If you could possibly clue me in on anything about the C. F. Yount company and it's products and history, it would add a story to this beautiful copper bottomed steamer that we use so often. Sincerely, Michael Garner mhgarner59@hotmail.com

[edit] apparent query about testosterone and hands

to people who head about scientific experimentation that talk about testosterone and hands

  • I moved this sentence fragment here from talk:testosterone, but would encourage writer to amplify his/her question and we'll take a stab.Alteripse 01:54, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] worldhistory.com

Moved to the Village pump.

[edit] FM stations in Hyderabad

Are there any Frequency modulation stations in Hyderabad, India? Rajasekaran Deepak 13:13, 2004 Jun 13 (UTC)

[edit] North Korea

Would it be tougher for the U.S. to defeat North Korea in an all out war than it was to defeat Iraq?

Your question is flawed by the assumptions in the comparative clause. The US war against Iraq was not an "all out war" in the sense of "mobilizing all the resources available for the sole goal of destroying the army and political regime of the enemy". The last time the US fought an "all out war" by that definition was WWII. I'll let you decide whether the US has "defeated Iraq" by destroying their army and political regime or whether the US actually needs to accomplish some of the declared war goals. Now what was the first part of your question again? Alteripse 23:04, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
As Alteripse said, this is a poorly formed question that cannot be answered properly. But if your question is, "Is the North Korean military more powerful than the Iraqi military was in the most recent Persian Gulf conflict", the answer is yes, all around in all respects. Not to mention that it is very likely that China would get involved in some way if the U.S. attacked North Korea. - Centrx 01:02, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Not to mention that in hour one of any such war, North Korea would launch an all-out attack -- possibly nuclear -- on Seoul, which is quite near the border. -- Jmabel 23:45, Jun 14, 2004 (UTC)
Or, if the gloves were all the way off, the US could turn North Korea into a pile of smoking radioactive rubble. As others have said, the original poster needs to think about the question more carefully, otherwise you get silly answers. --Robert Merkel 07:28, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Well that's the catch with all of these 'could country x beat up country y' questions isn't it? The question isn't really 'could the US defeat NK', but 'What would the collatoral and political cost of doing so'. In this example, although in conventional terms NK has a large troop strength, it is not a match for the US. The problem is that to 'win' (lets not unpack what we mean by that!), the US would have to risk NK nuking SK or some other nearby country, and occupy a potentially hostile civilian population. In the Iraq case of course, it is not the military might of the former govt that is the problem, but that their war aims were not about defeating Iraq on the battlefield, but had broader and vaguer political aims. Compare and contrast the 'first' and 'second' gulf wars. Mark Richards 02:57, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Keep in mind that North Korea has quite high support among it's followers. It's insularity is highly successful - just note the dedication of those who prepare for the Mass Games. As such, NK have a greater potential fighting population at their disposal. If they were to go into total war - they have almost the entire population to use to fight. Of course, also, the possibility of the existance of nuclear weapons, etc... There are far too many factors to consider how the outcome will be. Iraq wasn't so successful in unifying to state, insulating the state - they did not necessarily have too many soldiers who wouldn't back out.--Oldak Quill 15:20, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Wireless Leeching

Isn't it possible for an apartment neighbor to leech onto their next-door wireless Internet because they are in such a close reception range? Surely wireless Internet company have thought of this? I know that some universities use password before one can access the wireless Internet (otherwise the campus would be nerd-town), but I don't believe domestic wireless is that high-security. --Quester 16:11, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It's up to the subscriber- if you turn on encryption and do usual wired router stuff like limit the IP addresses/users with access then you have your connection all to yourself, if not, you can 'share' it with everyone in range. Check out warchalking and wardriving for more info. adamsan 18:19, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Pocky

Does anybody know how to pronounce 'Pocky'?, my brother claims that it's pronounced 'Pokey' but I think it's pronounced the way it's spelled. Thank you. 67.160.75.230 21:25, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I've always heard it pronounced as if it rhymes with "walky-talky" - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 21:42, Jun 13, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] UK Political Parties

I live in the Us, but I'm sort of fascinated by all the UK political parties, can somebody point me to a listing or something? Ilyanep 23:17, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

This article should be helpful: List of political parties in the United Kingdom. Proteus (Talk) 23:26, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Winnie the Pooh Illustrator

Does anyone have a picture of E.H.Shepard, the illustrator of the Winnie the Pooh tales?

Google:E.H.Shepard gives this and this which appear to have the same picture, and this which has a different picture. HTH HAND --Phil | Talk 14:10, Jun 14, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] John Crawford/Johnny Crawford

We were watching a reunion of the Band Berlin and were wondering if the John Crawford in the band is the same Johnny Crawford that starred in the Rifleman??

Thanks for your help...

[edit] Linux Kernel Source Code

I have a query that "Why programming language C is considered as a souce code language for kernel design ?".

We can also consider C++, Java or any other high level language as we need a Compiler to transform programming language to machine language, for which compiler for any language can be built.

Plz. don't give answers based on - it's a old language, and more comfortable to assembly language architecture.

I would appreciate in joining a group which discusses questions based on Linux Kernel.

Regards, Mukesh k Srivastava (srimks@msn.com)

Because it's probably easier. If you want to code a C++ or Java kernel, you need to code up the support structures for the language as well (C++ depends on a RTTI system, but often you don't need to code up the whole system, for example). Even so, you could probably only do with some of the fancy features you get with C++ and Java, since you may have other limitations when working in the kernel environment...
With C, you don't have this encumberment. If you code in C, you get what you get, and you need not code anything else to get the language working (however to get stuff like libc, you need to do this yourself).
That doesn't mean to say that OSes coded in C++ or whatever don't exist, they are just probably not as common. I don't know if they found it easier or not to code it, though. I don't know if there's much advantage to doing so either. Dysprosia 06:31, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

IIRC, Linux has actually moved back and forth between C and C++ at least twice. Originally, it was in C (ask Linus why). At one point, someone at least partially converted it to C++ syntax (I think without full object oriented structuring), and in the process cleaned up a lot of declaration problems. That fork didn't catch on (although I think many of the needed changes were backported), as I think it also exposed bugs in the C++ compiler. Other excuses for sticking with C is that the C++ code was slower or bigger or the symbol mangling was ugly or something like that. I thought I heard recent rumors of attempting C++ again, but I haven't paid that close attension, so I'm not sure. --ssd 01:55, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Changing to C++ was apparently tried briefly in 1992, when the kernel was at extremely early stages and the code was completely different. To give you an idea, Linux 1.0 was released in 1994. See The linux-kernel mailing list FAQ. It does come up every now and again, but basically it's just a bad idea that's not worth the trouble. It's not possible to write an operating system in Java. Java runs inside a virtual machine. In other words, in order to run Java code there must be an encompassing program written in something other than Java. So, no matter what you were to do, you would have to have a part of the system in something other than Java. Not that it would work anyway, because the language doesn't have low-level pointers, which you need to do an operating system, and it's very slow compared to what you can do with C. It's memory management is even more abstract than C++. Operating systems are just not what it's for. There's a reason C is called a "mid-level" language whereas C++ and Java are high-level and assembly is low-level. Assembly is also used in many places in the Linux kernel for speed and to access the hardware more directly. - Centrx 06:01, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The ChorusOS (now called Jaluna) is written entirely in C++ (with, as with almost everything, a few lines of assembly for cpu initialisation and isr-wrapping). The OS for the picojava microprocessor is written entirely in java bytecodes and java. The OS (such as it was) for the Jupiter ace was written entirely in forth. Atheos is written entirely in C++. All the code running on Symbolics Lisp machines was written in Lisp. There's no reason one couldn't write almost all of the device drivers (everything except ISRs) in a microkernel os like mach or qnx neutrino in just about anything you wanted. Linux isn't written in C++ in no small part because GCC (to which linux is wedded) wasn't a good enough C++ compiler for most of linux' development time. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 16:59, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I wasn't disputing that an OS could be written in C++, and I know there are some. But Java is a different story. As you say, it needs a special processor specifically designed for the language, which doesn't really mean much. You can't make an operating system with Java without hardware specifically designed for it, which isn't saying much, because if you're specifically designing hardware for the language, you could do it with any sufficiently sophisticated programming language, whatever its uniqueness (like bytecode and virtual machines) that would normally disqualify it. - Centrx 20:31, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
It's important to remember that all microprocessors are built with a specific programming paradigm in mind. "Conventional" microprocessors (ARM, MIPS, and particularly SPARC) are deliberately engineered to run C fast. SPARC's register windowing and late-model x86's register renaming schemes are built specifically (and only) to speed C. Similarly, the weird rectangular memory in Crays (I think the X-MP) is fairly useless for C, but makes fortran run super fast. And horrid though x86 is, we should thank it for saving us from native LISP or FORTH architectures. Don't be misled by picoJava's name - it has no more support for java than athlon has for C (rather less so, really) - it's not java implemented in hardware (no virtual machine, no allocator, no garbage collector, no verifier, no classloader, no exceptions, no classes), just a chip with a stack-machine bias rather than a procedural (call-frame) bias (and it runs java fast and C slow, just as athlon is the other way about). The current majoritarian architecture choices are just that - choices, and ones that weren't the majority two decades ago, and surely won't be the majority two decades hence. So the real answer to the question "Why is linux written in C?" is "Linux is targeted at architectures designed to run C well". -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 20:58, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
These processors aren't designed to run C. They are designed to run their respective assembly languages, and C is compiled unto those assembly languages. C is fast because it is low-level, not because of tailored processors. - Centrx 22:11, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
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