Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2006 November 17

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[edit] November 17

[edit] History questions for WWI

1) I was listing countries that directly participated in the First World War and gained land after the Paris Conference and wrote down Romania. It does not matter why they gained land or which side they fought on. I wrote Romania and my history teacher did not believe me. The wiki article says the Romanian army fought for 4 months in WWI. Who is right?

You and the Library of Congress, but it looks like more than four months:
Romania
The Romanian Army in World War I
Prior to World War I, Carol I emphasized military ties with Germany and forced France to compete with Germany as a source of military assistance for, and influence on, the Romanian state. The sympathies of most Romanians, however, lay with France. In 1913 Romania mobilized nearly 500,000 men against Bulgaria during the Second Balkan War and, at a decisive moment, marched virtually unopposed on the Bulgarian capital, Sofia.
Although it sympathized with France, Britain, and Russia, Romania maintained an armed neutrality during the first two years of World War I. The warring alliances tried to induce Romania to enter the war on their side in return for territorial gain. The Central Powers offered Bukovina and Bessarabia, which would be carved out of tsarist Russia. The Triple Entente promised Romania Transylvania, which would be detached from the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
Romania finally joined the Entente in August 1916 and fought alongside Russian armies on the eastern front. It mobilized approximately 750,000 men against German and Austro-Hungarian soldiers in the northern Carpathian Mountains and against German and Bulgarian troops along its southern border. Romanian forces suffered a string of early and catastrophic defeats, and Bucharest was occupied in December 1916. The final blow to the Romanian effort in the war was the collapse of Russian armies in October 1917, which disrupted Romania's supply lines. As a result, Romania was obliged to sue for peace in December 1917. Romania lost approximately 400,000 soldiers to combat wounds or disease, as well as untold numbers of civilians.
Although Romania was a defeated power, its French and British allies eventually were victorious, and it reaped major territorial gains as a result of the peace treaties that officially ended World War I. It received Transylvania from Austria-Hungary, Dobruja from Bulgaria, and Bukovina and Bessarabia from Soviet Russia (see fig. 1). These gains nearly doubled its size but also earned it the enmity of its immediate neighbors.
Data as of July 198 {http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/cshome.html] -THB 03:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

2) He also marked that Austria and Hungary were not new countries formed after the war. Is that right? I know that the Austro-Hungarian Empire was considered by many people to be somewhat of a collection of countries, but the post-WWI Austria and Hungary had completely different governments and presented themselves to the Allies at the peace conference as such. --The Dark Side 03:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

See Austria-Hungary#Territorial legacy. There were so many new countries formed out of the empire that Austria and Hungary were new countries, in my opinion, though you could debate that. I would side with you. Maybe you should split the difference and let your professer have this one. I have had professors refuse to give credit even when proved wrong. A classroom is not a democracy. -THB 03:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)


You certainly have the satisfaction of knowing that you were absolutely right on the first point, and the limits in the knowledge and, more important, the intellectual flexibility, of your teacher. In the wake of the astonishing success of the Russian Brusilov Offensive of June 1916, Romania joined the war on the side of the allies, in the hope of making quick, and easy, territorial gains. It was to prove to be a little more difficult than they anticipated. But in the end the Romanians did come out on top, more than doubling the size of their pre-war territory, a rate of expansion greater than any of the other combatant nations. Her gains were contained in the Treaty of Trianon, with Hungary (not with Austria-Hungary, incidentally), and the Treaty of Neuilly with Bulgaria. Her gains from Russia were, as far as I am aware, not formalized by treaty.
On the second point neither Austria nor Hungary were 'new' countries, their change of government notwithstanding.
On the more important matter under contention, I personally would point out the teacher's error, with reference to sources, if it is in your interests to do so. But you know her or him better than I do. Some have very fragile egos. Clio the Muse 06:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
No, I disagree. Even though he/she is right, his/her teacher would be very upset if proven wrong by one of his/her pupils (who are supposed to be intellectually "inferior", but that's where Wikipedia comes in). I think bragging to a few friends would suffice. | AndonicO Talk | Sign Here 15:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
You must have gone to a tough school, Andonico. Pupils are usually presumed to have less knowledge than their teachers, but intellectually inferior?? Intellect is established at an early age. Knowledge and skills come later. I would walk out of the class of any teacher who suggested to me that I could never teach them anything because they're superior to me. I did have one Russian teacher (hi, Nick, if you're reading this) who said he never gave 10/10 on a test because it would show him up in a bad light - but I think he was joking. I probably never merited a 10 anyway. JackofOz 22:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Teachers need to be taught the truth at some point.martianlostinspace 23:37, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Solutions to the child soldiers problem

What are some solutions to the child soldiers problem. What are things that can be done to improve their lives while their serving, stop recruitment, and help them after their done?

-I Appreciate ALL responses. thanks!

Anyone??

Define "child soldier problem"? Children being forced into the military isn't the "problem" it's the symptom of a problem. It isn't the same problem in every case, find out what that problem is and you can then work on a solution. And please sign your posts. Vespine 05:37, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Vespine. You cannot simply solve a problem like the problem of child soldiers. The fact that it exists means there is a need for it to exist. Moreover, it is linked with many other issues like poverty, national security, political ideology, class conflict, etc. You cannot simply eliminate it, you may have to change the whole structure of a particular society and its relationship with others as well. Moonwalkerwiz 06:19, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the worst recent example of this problem (and one that seems near a solution) is the case of the Lord's Resistance Army. StuRat 06:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we need to look at the adult soldier problem first. See peace and associated links.--Shantavira 08:15, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Why would you say that ? There will always be adult soldiers, but a concerted effort could eliminate child soldiers. StuRat 08:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Child soldiers are as old as war itself;solve the one problem and you also solve the other. Sadly, war, like decay and death, is part of the human condition. Thus it is, and thus it will always be. But war's a game, which, were their subjects wise, kings would not play at. Clio the Muse 08:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
"If any question why we died, Tell them, because our fathers lied." Philc TECI 18:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
That quotation is particularly poignant, Philic, coming as it does from the pen of Rudyard Kipling, whose only son, John, was killed at the Battle of Loos in 1915, at the age of eighteen. John had previously been rejected for military service because of his poor eyesight, but later received a commission in the Irish Guards, owing to the special pleadings of his father. Clio the Muse 23:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
And Kipling never forgave himself, as he had sent his son to his death, under the belief that it was something heroic to do. Subsequently, his later works show definitevly he lost this belief. Philc TECI 21:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
  • "What if they called a war and nobody came?"hotclaws**== 13:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Often, people will argue that war is not part of the human condition. Now that we have Wikipedia, it is easy to look at List of Wars and see that peace is rare. War is common and they have increased with the population of the world. So, while it may not be part of the human condition, it exists and grows as the human population continues to exist and grow. --Kainaw (talk) 15:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I have to disagree with everyone who assumes that war automatically means child soldiers. Many nations have managed to fight wars without the use of child soldiers. StuRat 20:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Correct, just because some things happened during wars doesn't mean we are somehow obliged to allow these things again and again. Fullscale plunder, rape, and massive destruction after a battle were quite common in earlier times. With the passing of time more and more countries agreed to avoid them, signing several agreements (like the Geneva convention, etc). There will certainly be always some parties who flaunt these rules of war but they are usually a minority, and if possible will be brought to trial (there will be always some criminals I'm afraid). Currently the legal age according international treaties for soldiers is around 15 allthough there are some attempts to raise to 18. They will fail in the forseable future because the UK and the US and other minor exceptions allow underage recruitment (16 for the UK, and 17 for the USA). I advise you to read the article child soldiers. Flamarande 17:28, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Insults

What is the best insult by or of a famous person? I know Winston Churchill and Dorothy Parker have to be considered. Clarityfiend 07:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

"Best" is a matter of opinion. See the external link at the end of our insult article and take your pick. --Shantavira 08:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Winston Churchill is an excellent source of witty and pithy insults. My personal favourites are his comments on Stafford Cripps, the Labour politician-There but for the grace of God, goes God, and William Ewart Gladstone, the great Liberal Prime Minister-Mr. Gladstone read Homer for fun, which I thought served him right. Clio the Muse 09:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
The first external link is a total bust. None of the insults I randomly sampled showed much wit. In fact, I felt like coming up with an insult for the site itself. Clarityfiend 11:19, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Oscar Wilde is certainly in the running. -THB 11:40, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Some people create pleasure wherever they go; others, whenever they go. JackofOz 00:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I think it's hard to beat this one by Benjamin Disraeli:
William Gladstone: "I predict, Sir, that you will die either by hanging or of some vile disease."
Disraeli: "That all depends, sir, upon whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." --Dweller 11:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
More often attributed to Lord Sandwich and John Wilkes (see the latter). From what little I know of Gladstone, it seems more likely that one might taunt him for an unhealthy lack of vices. —Tamfang 08:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
"Sir, if you were my husband, I would poison your drink." - Lady Astor to Winston Churchill
"Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it." - His reply
An insult and an answer which beautifully uses it. Flamarande 11:51, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm surprised you forgot this one:
(Some woman, I forget who): "Mr. Churchill, you're drunk!"
Churchill: "Indeed, and you're ugly, yet I'll be sober in the morning". Loomis 12:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
It was a remark-slightly misquoted-he made to Bessie Braddock, Loomis, a Labour MP from Liverpool. Have a look at her photo: she is just a shade less attractive than Atilla the Hun; so, cruel as it was, he had a point. Clio the Muse 19:19, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Clio. I never claimed to know it verbatim. In any case: "just a shade less attractive than Atilla the Hun"? I assume that remark was made after years of "empirical research" on your part. :--) Loomis 23:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
For once this is not really needed; see the photo gallery linked to the above. Mind you, I suppose these things are indeed a matter of taste. Some guys like big ladies. Clio the Muse 23:38, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
William Shakespeare was well-known for penning extensive and new insults (or creatifying novelous English wordage), though whether he actually used them in real life isn't known. VirogIt's notmy fault! 18:10, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Churchill's dead anyway.martianlostinspace 23:35, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

"My impossible ones.— Seneca: or the toreador of virtue.— Rousseau: or the return to nature in impuris naturalibus [in natural filth].— Schiller: or the Moral-Trumpeter of Säckingen.— Dante: or the hyena who writes poetry in tombs.— Kant: or cant as an intelligible character.— Victor Hugo: or the pharos at the sea of nonsense.— Liszt: or the school of smoothness—with women.— George Sand: or lactea ubertas, in translation: the milk cow with "a beautiful style."— Michelet: or the enthusiasm which takes off its coat ... Carlyle: or pessimism as a poorly digested dinner.— John Stuart Mill: or insulting clarity.— Les frères de Goncourt: or the two Ajaxes in battle with Homer. Music by Offenbach.— Zola: or "the delight in stinking." —" - Friedrich Nietzsche from my favorite book. Moonwalkerwiz 23:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

In that case, Moonwalkerwiz, you may enjoy a little erudite graffito I saw on a wall close to my university- Nietzsche's dead! Signed, God. Clio the Muse 02:30, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
There's also one on a wall in my university. Curious. It's becoming a universal joke. Moonwalkerwiz 03:11, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
That's a really old joke. I've been hearing it for years, variously attributed to Nietzsche or Voltaire. VirogIt's notmy fault! 06:18, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Voltaire? How did he become part of it? This guy loves his God. I can't see how he'll figure in the joke. Moonwalkerwiz 06:32, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Beats me. Given the propensity for jokes to substitute vaguely-related people for each other, it must be his rejection of Christianity that caused him to be substituted. VirogIt's notmy fault! 08:08, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

F. E. Smith was famous once, and he said things in court, to judges, that you wouldn't believe anyone could get away with. As in:

Judge: "Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?"
Smith: "No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it."
--Rallette 09:07, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The folksy Tory Alberta Premier Ralph Klein on Belinda Stronach, once a Tory candidate for leadership, and girlfriend of Tory Foreign Affairs Minister Peter Mackay, until she surprised both her boyfriend and her party by opportunistically (and stupidly) defecting to the Liberals for a short lived plum cabinet post:

"I always knew Belinda never had a single Tory bone in her body...but come to think of it, perhaps she did on a few occasions..." :-O Loomis 09:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Disraeli also described Gladstone as "a sophistical rhetorician, inebriated with the exuberance of his own verbosity". JackofOz 22:46, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Now that one's a zinger! Quite a wit he was! (huh?)
The sophistical rhetorician I am, I cannot but aid mineself but be overwhelmingly intoxicated by the sheer brilliance that is the reminiscence of a fascinatingly over-articulated yet utterly hyposensical retort uttered by one Semitic-come-Anglican primus inter pares advisor to our beloved Regina Victoria. I cannot help but slant my headgear to that Celtic-antipodian we're all so familiar with through the hypervernacular moniker of "JackOfOz". :-) Loomis 03:57, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Loomis, yet again you have dumbfounded me. I am slack-jawed with stupefaction. JackofOz 00:13, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

This webpage is an excellent resource- http://www.generationterrorists.com/cgi-bin/quotes.cgi?section=Insults —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]]).

Jean Harlow was seated at a formal dinner beside a Lady Margot somebody, whom she kept addressing as "Lady Margott" until the latter said, "The t is silent, as in Harlow." —Tamfang 08:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

That was Margot Asquith. JackofOz 00:13, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Then I heard the story wrong: "Lady Margot" was never her proper style. —Tamfang 16:45, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lost film treasures

Is there an article about missing footage from classic movies, e.g. Greed, Lost Horizon? Clarityfiend 08:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Lost film. -THB 11:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Aaaah. Thank you. Clarityfiend 23:32, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Printer named "Beren" or "Berens" (or similar with variant spelling)

Hi

I'm looking for any information about a printer. The little information I have is as follows:

  • He was one of the earliest printers of Jewish books (in Hebrew/Aramaic)
  • He lived in Europe or western Asia
  • He probably was not Jewish himself

Variant spellings may be a problem - especially with an "h" in either syllable and/or "a" replacing either of the "e"s!

Any information gratefully received. --Dweller 11:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Incunabula are not something I know much about. Have you seen the Incunabula, Hebraica and Judaica catalogue ? Perhaps there's something in there that will help. Another interesting piece here says that Prague was an early centre of Hebrew printing in central Europe. This timeline mentions names, but I didn't see anything like the name you're looking for. Not much luck really, Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I scanned all the printer's names of that catalogue, and the only that has some faint similarity was Daniel Bomberg. Google searches for judaica+incunabula+b(e|ae|ä)(h|)ren(s|) did not result in any clues.  --LambiamTalk 21:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Also check for incunabula collections from Baghdad and from Italy; those places seem to come up often when Googling Aramaic early printer and Hebrew early printer. Baghdad was a centre both of learning and of Jewish life in the 1400s and 1500s. --Charlene 16:51, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] All Strings PCO "Perpetuum Mobile"

I recently heard an all-strings rendition of the Penguin Cafe Orchestra's Perpetuum Mobile, and adored it. I wonder if anyone knows of a place where I could find a recording of this song on all strings (the original jumps between all sorts of instruments). Thanks in advance. Tuckerekcut 12:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC) (an avid poster on the science Ref Desk, first time here...).

Your first step should be finding out the composer of the piece; there is more than one piece with this title (which means "perpetual motion"). The two most famous are those by Paganini and by Strauss. The Paganini is an uninterrupted series of rapid notes; the Strauss is a sprightly dance in which, though the melody changes, the underlying harmonies repeat again and again. Strauss apparently didn't write an end to his piece; I've heard some performances where it just fades away, and one in which at the end, the orchestra spoke the words "und so weiter" ("And so on...") Good luck! Herbivore 03:20, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

That was the conductor Robert Stolz speaking, I believe. JackofOz 22:48, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
The questioner is asking specifically about the Penguin Cafe Orchestra's Perpetuum Mobile, not Paganini's, Strauss', or anybody else's.  --LambiamTalk 13:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] rap music

Do any rap music do it properly live, i.e. instead of a mechanical boring drum machine, actually get a proper drummer to drum? and like a bassist to lay down a proper bass line?

"Properly" is an opinion, but check out The Roots, for instance. 惑乱 分からん 14:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Lady Sovereign does it properly. Check out this review of one of her recent shows. 192.168.1.1 7:40am, 17 Noremember 2006 (PST)
Grime without samples? Surely the end of time is near... @_@ 惑乱 分からん 17:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
There is still a backing track. - Zepheus <ツィフィアス> 20:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Yeah but drum machines sound sh** compared to a proper drummer. Music should be an organic thing, made by ppl not computers. Bill Gates can't beat Keith Moon. I just wanted to know who did it properly.
There's no "properly" to it and in any case most rap music doesn't use drum machines but uses samples, which are quite different. Samples are often based on "real" drums. In any case the line between "organic" music and "inorganic" music has been blurred since the 1960s at least; you'd be surprised how much production and tweaking goes into even "live" music. --24.147.86.187 00:08, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I doubt that the people that started rapping in the American ghettos of the 80's got their drum kit out in the alley ;). Either beat box or boom box would be about as proper as you can get to accompany a rapper I imagine. Vespine 22:38, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Could anyone tell me the origin of the following passage?

"An apology

Our hearts should not belong to us. Can you feel your heart? Do you know it as yourself? I can see that it is sunk just below skin that murmurs and tremors; I can feel it's bruising itself against sternum plate.".......... ............................. "To the heart with whom I share the blood that runs through me,

To the heart that I owe my life, 
To the heart that I fail,
I am sorry."

I would appreciate if anyone can shed a light on where this passage comes from.

Many thanks,

M.F.Zola <removed e-mail>

I did try yesterday, but couldn't find anything. (Just so you know your question wasn't ignored.) -THB 21:48, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Sounds like e-mail-based crud rather than any legitimate poetry. It has all the hallmarks of bad writing ("I can feel it's bruising itself against sternum plate"? jesus, wtf), if you don't mind me saying so—if you are looking for something romantic and touching look in a book of Donne or Eliot or Neruda or something like that. --24.147.86.187 00:20, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
If I were the OP, I would certainly mind you saying so. They were after the source of this text, not your opinions of other texts. JackofOz 22:50, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Classical era Instruments

Hmm.. i was wondering what sort of instruments were used during the classical music era. help please? I couldn't find much in the artical for it. Is it Steak?<Xiaden's Homepage> 15:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The main article is here Classical music era; see the section near the end on characteristics. Most of the instruments in use then are still around today, though often in modified form. Antandrus (talk) 16:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I saw the document, got the Fortepiano from that. however, i didn't see much on the way of instruments on that artical. but thank you nonetheless. Is it Steak?<Xiaden's Homepage> 17:28, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I think Orchestra will help, though you'll have to pick out the relevant material from it. Not all instruments that existed were used in orchestras of course, but most were. --ColinFine 17:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The piano was a fairly new invention, and got its first massive boon from Mozart’s stuff, who also happened to do the same for the clarinet, via his clarinet concerto (also a new instrument). By this stage, the harpsichord and organ were well on their way down, and a typical orchestra consisted of a good amount of strings, with a few woodwind and brass tagging along. (That was the case about 1750, but the orchestra tended to get bigger as time went on.) Those should be the main exceptions. Anything else is probably from any era of non-pop western music. martianlostinspace 23:34, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] End of Vietnam War: A photo

I've been trying to find the name and link to a photo on Wikipedia and other sites, but no luck. The description of the photo is a girl running with arms outstretched to a soldier on an airport runway, just as he got off the plane from Vietnam (being one of the last soldiers to leave). I think the year was 1973. The girl was wearing a sweater with one of those wide-lapel collars that was so popular back then, and a miniskirt. Hopefully someone knows what I'm talking about, because I thought it was a really famous picture, yet I've had no luck on the internet. Thank you! Mike H. I did "That's hot" first! 17:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I ended up finding the picture, and a date for the photo: March 17, 1973. Can someone tell me who is in the picture, where it was taken, and who took it? Here it is. Mike H. I did "That's hot" first! 17:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Never mind, I have found a lot of the information and written an article about it. However, if anyone else knows any more information, please post it here. Mike H. I did "That's hot" first! 19:01, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
And a nice article it is, too. -THB 20:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I've never seen that pic before, so I doubt if it's all that famous. StuRat 20:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Dude, it is all that famous, and I was unaware you were the authority on what was notable or not. ;) As far as fame is concerned, the Minnesota Historical Society recently featured said photo along with the Iwo Jima photograph, and Ruby shooting Oswald. [1] Mike H. I did "That's hot" first! 03:07, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Well that guy hasn't seen it; must not be famous. Yes, very nice article. - Zepheus <ツィフィアス> 20:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I've not seen it before either =P --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 20:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I was following the war news and saw on tv the return of the POWs at the time and do not recall the photo. There are a number of notable Vietnam war photos: Col. Loan murdering the Viet Cong Prisoner with a bullet through the brain, the girl running down the road after being napalmed, the people at My Lai who were about to be murdered, the monk burning himself to death, Diem assasinated, the choppers lifting off from the Embassy, the NVA tanks breaking through the gates of the presidential compound. This one seems unremarkable, but a nice representation of any soldier coming home from any war. Edison 23:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, I've seen the homecoming photo before, so there. The shooting photo is here if anyone wants to look at it again. The napalmed girl recovered and now lives in Canada: see Kim Phuc. I'm not going to attempt to find the others. --Anon, 00:08 UTC, November 18.
I recognize most of the images mentioned but don't recall any pictures from My Lai. (datum: I was born in 1960; how about you others?) —Tamfang 08:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

That girl in Burst of Joy looks like she's running weirdly to me. Both her feet are off the ground and she doesn't really look like she's running forwards. Or perhaps it's just me; who nows, if I was like that I reckon I'd fall backwards :) --WikiSlasher 11:13, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the picture looks familiar to me. Also, as for the running, she may have been jumping for joy as well as skipping. Either would be normal for a young girl with joy in her heart and would produce odd looking body language when still images were taken mid flight. Dismas|(talk) 23:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
insert joke about stagecoach wheels —Tamfang 08:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I've known of the photo since about 1978, when I bought a book of Pulitzer Prize winning photos up till 1977. JackofOz 22:55, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Hey, it's on the main page, in the DYK section. No wonder I thought I had seen it today. | AndonicO Talk | Sign Here 13:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Post-democratic system

Does anyone know of an author who developed a post-democratic political or social system? I guess it would be a political philosopher or social scientist but it might be a hard sci-fi author. I'm looking for something that asumed democracy as its basis to grow further, maybe a sort of evolutionary theory of politics. Thank you. p.s. Let's drop the "totalitarian rule is restored" and "science solves everything" scenari Keria 18:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

See Utopia, socialism. -THB 18:35, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Damn, I was about to say Hitler, but then you spoiled it with that last sentence. Btw, isn't the plural of scenario 'scenarii'? Or is that latin? DirkvdM 20:18, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe the plural is "scenarios". It's from Latin, but it's not actually Latin. -THB 20:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I forgot the smiley. Here it is: :) DirkvdM 06:16, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Robert A. Heinlein's Starship Troopers has a sort of "evolved" democracy (though whether it's better or worse is, of course, up to the reader) wherein the only individuals allowed to vote have performed civil or military service. The source and implications of this system are explored several times in detail during the novel. This system is also present, but hardly discussed, in the B-movie allegedly derived from the novel. VirogIt's notmy fault! 20:35, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Brave New World comes to mind. It's an utopian-like society, set in the future, following democracy. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 20:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I would query, at least from the POV of the author, whether it is a utopia or a distopia. But good example. Skittle 21:28, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Heinlein is interesting from a lot of perspectives; also see the political systems in Beyond This Horizon and of course the Lazarus Long books. Ian M. Banks's Culture novels have a post-scarcity vibe, although I don't know whether super-intelligent AIs in charge is to be considered a cop-out. There's one Asimov short story where democracy is replaced by opinion polling, eventually culminating in the election being decided by a single person's responses. You might look at some of Ursula K. LeGuin's work for alternative social systems. Finally, IIRC Kurt Vonnegut's Tralfamadorians had some sort of telepathic consensus government. EdC 23:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I guess this one falls under "science solves anything," but you still may find it interesting. Walden Two is a novel by that classic American psychologist, B.F. Skinner. I own a copy of this book, but I can't force myself to even read the second chapter. The writing style is dry and you get this sense that Skinner should have just written an essay rather than a story. So, I'm not really sure if the society in this one is post-democratic, I think it's closer to a kind of ideal socialist society. Moonwalkerwiz 23:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Skinner has some room for democracy in Walden Two (anyone is allowed to leave, at the very least) but even at best it would only work for very small groups (which Skinner is pretty explicit about, if I recall correctly — you simply couldn't have nation-states using his model, which I'm pretty sure he would see as a good thing). --24.147.86.187 05:40, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I forgot to mention that Frank Herbert discusses a theory of governance in the later Dune novels (particularly the last two, Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse: Dune). Most of the planets devolved into a feudal system of governance, though the Bene Gesserit had a rather odd form of democracy that was basically a representative democracy, but where all the participating members had essentially the same mindset. VirogIt's notmy fault! 05:35, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Sort of like the US before the last elections? :) DirkvdM 06:16, 18 November 2006 (UTC)


Thank you very much. Keria 08:09, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

  • "The Dispossed" Ursula K. LeGuinhotclaws**== 14:12, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you. I checked the reference * The Dispossessed: An Ambiguous Utopia, 1974 Keria 18:19, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Early on, [Karl Marx] advocated what he felt to be an inevitable Utopia which was, at core, absolutely democratic (because there were no class distinctions to get in the way.) However, after failed revolutions, he came to feel that the masses were incapable of ruling themselves, or at least bringing a revolution to pass themselves - thus armed seizure of power by a small number of committed revolutionaries. Over time, his theories were used to create more beaurocratic, top-down societies, however. I think. 71.252.11.5 23:34, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Marx's view is specifically and trenchantly anti-Utopian, which he considered one of the main fallacies of what he called 'bourgeois socialism.' The rest of the model you have outlined here belongs to Lenin, not Marx. Clio the Muse 01:06, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Marx's view was not utopian in the sense that it was a prediction of what would happen. Of course, there was also an element of hope that it would actually happen, if only to be able to say "I told you so". :) DirkvdM 08:59, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Not, I think, an altogether accurate description of 'scientific socialism'. Stay away from Highgate Cemetery, Dirk; I can hear very loud moans coming from that direction. However, I should in all fairness add that Marx did say that the bourgeoisie would pay for the boils that accumulated on his backside while he was in the British Library gathering material for Das Kapital.Clio the Muse 10:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I was referring to the term 'historic right' (or what is that called in English?), meaning that the revolution was inevitable. In that sense, Marxism was not an opinion but a historical analysis. DirkvdM 09:13, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
In response to User:71.252.11.5 - Marx never wanted to be Utopian in any sense of the word. He hesitated to describe the future society if only to differentiate himself from other socialists at that time. In fact, very early in his letter to Arnold Ruge, he felt that his mission was purely to describe the present state of things and never to predict. In his words, "It is a matter of a confession, and nothing more. In order to secure remission of its sins, mankind has only to declare them for what they actually are."
Moreover, the future society is not "absolutely democratic" (though what that means I really don't understand). In The Jewish Question Marx, conceptualizes the "perfect democracy" as an attribute of politically emancipated states, like that of the French and in North America. However, these politically emancipated states are not yet humanly emancipated and are still the picture of man's alienation. There is a conflict between the state and civil society, the former acting out a pseudo-universality, and the other particularities, divisions of men. He says, "That which is a creation of fantasy, a dream, a postulate of Christianity, i.e., the sovereignty of man – but man as an alien being different from the real man – becomes, in democracy, tangible reality, present existence, and secular principle." Moonwalkerwiz 00:50, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


The libertarian "one man one veto" comes to mind, as does this line from Ken MacLeod's novel Dark Light: "Drawing lots is fair, even if it sometimes throws up a freak result. With elections you're actually building the minority problem right in at every level, and lots more with it – parties, money, fame, graft, just for starters. What chance would that leave ordinary people, what chance would we have of being heard or of making a difference? Elections are completely undemocratic, they're downright antidemocratic. Everybody knows that!" —Tamfang 08:39, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Industrial relations

I need opinions concerning this topic and would really appreciate quick answers.Organisational development is people friendly: true or false. Thank you for your help.≠°≈±−×÷←→ 216.118.254.106 18:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)Tutsie

See Organization development. It depends on how it's handled. The statement can be true in one situation and false in another. Start with a definition of people-friendly. -THB 18:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Using books as references in articles

If I wish add to an article a number of print references (books) that cover the same topic, but which may or may not have been used in the writing of the article (Such as 'Further reading' or a reading list) what is the appropriate way to do this? Example: in the article on Tibetan Buddhist teacher Ju Mipham Gyatso, I would like to list a number of books that contain translations of his work and biographical information. Is it appropriate to put the bibliographic citation for these books in the article, and if so what would that section be called? Thanks very much in advance. Zero sharp 19:25, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

You may indeed add a "Further reading" section, as long as the list does not get out of hand-- try and keep it to a few well chosen books. This section should go at the end. Cheers, Dar-Ape 19:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
The other appropriate term would be "bibliography". -THB 20:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I am probably wrong, but isn't a "bibliography" a list of books you gathered information from for the article while "further reading" is a list of books that contains information you did not include in the article? --Kainaw (talk) 20:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
"Bibliography" can mean either of these things. "References" is another word for what you're talking about.
In non-fiction work an author would normally use the term 'Select Bibliography', to indicate those works she or he drew on in the process of research, as opposed to 'Bibliography', which would imply a more comprehensive coverage of the whole field under study. But for what you have in mind 'Further Reading' would do very well, simply flagging up some additional routes that might be followed. Clio the Muse 23:19, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deep fried American flags

I've been looking for some good pictures of the artwork described in this recent article. I don't know if they don't exist on the net yet, or if I'm not using the right search terms. Anchoress 19:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It says he's an art student, and they removed the work. It is unlikely that any journalists were able to photograph it. Sounds really interesting to me, too. -THB 20:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Cat's Protection League by Roger McGough

Can someone help me understand this poem or find me a review about it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 219.88.84.37 (talk • contribs).

McGough is making a play on the title of the Cats Protection League, as if it were a Protection racket, run by cats who will poop in your garden etc unless you pay them. sʟυмɢυм • т • c 22:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's the poem: [2]. StuRat 22:47, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

NO I mean a review that helps me to understand the poem

I know what you mean, but in order to review the poem, people will have to be able to read it first, hence the link. StuRat 06:30, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
What is there to understand? Some things really are self-evident. It's just a comic poem. Best not to look for difficulty where there is none. See Slumgum's comment above. Clio the Muse 00:31, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

i'm asian you see, so i'm kinda bad at english. and i need to write a review about it. the poem's theme

Oh, I see. It is actually quite simple, being no more than a protection racket run by animals. The big threat is not that they will shoot or injure those who refuse to pay them, but that they will make life difficult: three heavy toms (male cats) will call, make a lot of noise (wail each night), tear up the garden (mangle the flowers), and shit all over the grass (a smelly minefield awaits you at dawn). Doing, in essence, all the things that cats normally do. It has a very simple rhyme scheme. They are paid off with tins of tuna fish, and will doubtless be back for more; that is how protection rackets normally operate! Clio the Muse 01:37, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I admire you, Clio. Moonwalkerwiz 01:44, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you. Admiration, though rarely given, is always welcome! Clio the Muse 01:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Hands off, Moonwalkerwiz, she's mine! Can you blame me for being so irresistably allured by any woman posessing the sheer genteelness to make the observation that cats are known to "shit all over the grass"? :-) Loomis 01:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Loomis, what makes you think Clio is a woman? I hope her username doesn't conjure in your mind the picture of a beautiful nymph, a muse indeed? For all we know, Clio could be an old bearded librarian with a fascination for history and cats. Moonwalkerwiz 04:05, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
True, but I have reason to believe otherwise. In any case, even if Clio's a man, he's no less fascinating. And he's still mine! So hands off! :--) Loomis 04:33, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
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