User talk:RedSpruce
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 Archives |
|---|
|
Contents |
[edit] Joe Mac Pop
Karl, Just to elaborate on my comment in this thread: Talk:Joseph_McCarthy#Popular_culture. I don't lean strongly either toward keeping or deleting the section and am happy to defer to your preference. My sense is simply that, with the section having become an issue, it's in the interest of the article's short- and long-term stability to have a well-reasoned discussion and conclusion on the Talk page. Best, Dan.—DCGeist 04:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] J. Edgar Hoover
What are you afraid of in terms of eliminating reference to the KGB and Hoover's alleged homosexuality? Not making him look like a buffoon. Perhaps you have no understanding of the KGB and its tactics. For example, the recent admissions from the KGB archives show that it was behind the myth that Pius XII did nothing to help the Jews during the Holocaust, an assertion that is baseless in fact.--146.145.70.250 21:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
- It has nothing to do with the KGB's tactics. Hoover was a man who never married, who was never known to date women, who spent almost all of his free time, as well as much of his time at work, with a male friend. Under those circumstances, any mention of anyone "starting the rumor" that he was a homosexual is simply silly. If the KGB did expend any effort in spreading this rumor, doing so was act of utter irrelevance. KarlBunker 01:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] McCarthy
Karl, I like your changes to the lead. You summarize 50-54 much better than I would have been able to do it.
On a separate note, I'm increasingly uncomfortable with Second Red Scare redirecting to "McCarthyism." I think I initially raised this point at Talk there last month, and I know you disagree, but hear me out for a moment. While I realize that there is much common usage of the term McCarthyism to indicate the period that encompasses the 2RS, you have also acknowledged that the 2RS includes some years in the 1940s that predate McCarthy's fame or involvement with anti-Communism, specifically and importantly the Truman State Department loyalty oath/purge thing, as well as HUAC, which as we both know wasn't related to McCarthy the man. None of that is new or controversial in general or between us. Where I'm going with it is that I think making the whole era synonymous with McCarthyism (especially given the modern connotation of the term) amounts to attributing too much prominence to the man himself, sort of an ad hominem emphasis on 15 years of American history. I'm not suggesting McCarthy wasn't "the most famous public face of anti-Communist sentiment" or however we're describing him. I'm not suggesting the term isn't generally used (a google search shows that it is). However, a google search also shows "Second Red Scare" is commonly used and to me it seems like there's a distinction between it and McCarthyism, both in the period of time (ie the parts predating 1950) and in the style and character of it (like Truman's dismissals weren't all unsubstantiated attacks on people's patriotism in the style of McCarthy, they actually involved firing Communist sympathizers/agents, etc.).
What I hope you will consider is making the main subject article "Second Red Scare," and have "McCarthyism" redirect to it, rather than the way we have it now. McCarthyism would still be the major focus of the article and would represent the bulk of it, but the 2RS article could give a bit more of the pre- and post-McCarthy/McCarthyism context without hanging it all on Joe McCarthy. Let me know what you think. Kaisershatner 15:43, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
- You're entirely correct that the beginning of the second red scare predates McCarthy. Likewise did the gradual end of the second red scare postdate the time when McCarthy had any notable voice in America. However, the fact is that all of the scholars on the subject that I've read use the terms "second red scare" and "McCarthyism" synonymously. And I've read enough of the prominent works in the field so that I'm confident that if there are any scholars out there who make a distinction between the two, theirs is a minority view. (I'd be very interested in reading the views of any such scholars, if you know of any.) Furthermore, "McCarthyism" is the far more commonly used term. Google book search shows 101 books with "McCarthyism" in the title, 91 with "red scare" in the title (many of which are about the first red scare), and none with "second red scare" in the title. All "histories of McCarthyism" make it very clear that the period of history they're talking about by no means coincides with the career of Joseph McCarthy. It just so happens that his name has been used to name that period of history. And that holds true for the WP article on McCarthyism too; to quote the first sentence of the first section after the introduction: "The historical period known as McCarthyism began well before Joseph McCarthy's own involvement in it." KarlBunker 18:40, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
-
- You might be interested in this, if you haven't read it; it seems to articulate my point in a much more thorough way than I can.[1] Kaisershatner 14:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
-
-
- I've read the book. About the only point it articulates is that although McCarthy was a horrible person, that's okay because he was against Communists. It's a point that might have some validity if McCarthy had ever caught any Communists. Roughly the same holds true for McCarthyism. It would make sense to have more discussion of the actual Soviet espionage and subversion activities in the U.S. in the McCarthyism article if there was more of a connection between the two stories. That is, if something that's identified as "McCarthyism" had ever resulted in any notable illegal Soviet or Communist activities being exposed. It didn't, so the only grounds for discussing actual Soviet espionage is in mentioning that such activity helped to provide the paranoid background that gave rise to McCarthyism. KarlBunker 14:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
- I'm confused. One the one hand, above you are taking the position that "It would make sense to have more discussion of the actual Soviet espionage and subversion activities in the U.S. in the McCarthyism article if...something that's identified as "McCarthyism" had ever resulted in any notable illegal Soviet or Communist activities being exposed," and on the other hand, that "that the beginning of the second red scare predates McCarthy. Likewise did the gradual end of the second red scare postdate the time when McCarthy had any notable voice in America." Since the purge of the State Department by Truman and the exposure of actual Soviet agents within the US should, in your view, fall under the McCarthyism article, shouldn't it make sense to discuss those things there in detail? Kaisershatner 14:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- The Truman loyalty-security program is discussed in the McCarthy article. For the most part, the "exposure of actual Soviet agents" that occurred during this era did not occur because of anything that is identified as McCarthyism; it happened because of the revelations of defectors, and later because of Venona. One partial exception to this is the Hiss case, in that Hiss might not have been apprehended and convicted if not for HUAC. Because in this case there is an overlap between the story of McCarthyism and the story of actual Soviet espionage efforts, the Hiss case is discussed in the McCarthyism article. Apart from cases like this there is no real overlap in the two stories.
- In short, the reason why cases of Soviet espionage should not be discussed in detail in the McCarthyism article is because it's an article about McCarthyism. I assume there's another article about Soviet espionage in the United States; if it's well written, it doesn't spend much space talking about McCarthyism. KarlBunker 15:55, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- The Truman program is discussed, I am not asserting otherwise. However, I keep inserting, and you keep removing, mention in the introduction about actual Communist espionage during this period. About two months ago you wrote to me that "On the one hand, since McCarthyism is essentially defined as "baseless accusations and character assassination," it makes sense for the article to focus on that topic. On the other hand, I agree that the article should pay more attention the actual communist espionage and and infiltration that was discovered during the period, since those revelations, few though they were, formed part of the driving force behind McCarthyism." Do you feel the article has paid more attention to actual communist espionage since we discussed this in February? And are we using "McCarthyism" to mean "baseless anti-Communist accusations and fear" or "a period from the 1940s-1960s marked both by anti-Communist accusations and fears as well as by attempted Soviet infiltration of the US Government and controlling of the CPUSA?" Are the actual Communist activities relevant enough to the period to warrant mention in the introduction, or was it more simply just 20 years of demagoguery and fearmongering? Or something in the middle? Kaisershatner 17:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- The coverage of actual Soviet espionage has been increased (by one brief paragraph) since the exchange you mention. It is now more than sufficient, for the reasons I have stated. The correct definition of McCarthyism is the first one you mention. The second one you mention is not correct. The word does not refer simply to a period of history, nor to all Communism-related things that happened during a period of history. As the article states, it is a "term describing a period of intense anti-Communist suspicion in the United States that lasted roughly from the late 1940s to the late 1950s." If you believe that is incorrect, you merely have to demonstrate that a consensus of scholars holds a contradictory opinion. Simply repeating your opinion at me and asking me to repeat mine doesn't seem very productive to me. KarlBunker 18:01, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- The Truman program is discussed, I am not asserting otherwise. However, I keep inserting, and you keep removing, mention in the introduction about actual Communist espionage during this period. About two months ago you wrote to me that "On the one hand, since McCarthyism is essentially defined as "baseless accusations and character assassination," it makes sense for the article to focus on that topic. On the other hand, I agree that the article should pay more attention the actual communist espionage and and infiltration that was discovered during the period, since those revelations, few though they were, formed part of the driving force behind McCarthyism." Do you feel the article has paid more attention to actual communist espionage since we discussed this in February? And are we using "McCarthyism" to mean "baseless anti-Communist accusations and fear" or "a period from the 1940s-1960s marked both by anti-Communist accusations and fears as well as by attempted Soviet infiltration of the US Government and controlling of the CPUSA?" Are the actual Communist activities relevant enough to the period to warrant mention in the introduction, or was it more simply just 20 years of demagoguery and fearmongering? Or something in the middle? Kaisershatner 17:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- I'm confused. One the one hand, above you are taking the position that "It would make sense to have more discussion of the actual Soviet espionage and subversion activities in the U.S. in the McCarthyism article if...something that's identified as "McCarthyism" had ever resulted in any notable illegal Soviet or Communist activities being exposed," and on the other hand, that "that the beginning of the second red scare predates McCarthy. Likewise did the gradual end of the second red scare postdate the time when McCarthy had any notable voice in America." Since the purge of the State Department by Truman and the exposure of actual Soviet agents within the US should, in your view, fall under the McCarthyism article, shouldn't it make sense to discuss those things there in detail? Kaisershatner 14:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- I've read the book. About the only point it articulates is that although McCarthy was a horrible person, that's okay because he was against Communists. It's a point that might have some validity if McCarthy had ever caught any Communists. Roughly the same holds true for McCarthyism. It would make sense to have more discussion of the actual Soviet espionage and subversion activities in the U.S. in the McCarthyism article if there was more of a connection between the two stories. That is, if something that's identified as "McCarthyism" had ever resulted in any notable illegal Soviet or Communist activities being exposed. It didn't, so the only grounds for discussing actual Soviet espionage is in mentioning that such activity helped to provide the paranoid background that gave rise to McCarthyism. KarlBunker 14:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
-
[edit] Re: 3RR noticeboard
Few quick points. 1) The template is so it's much easier for the admins to read that they're of the same reverts. 2) If someone's edit warring, page protection, requests for comments, and administrators' intervention against vandalism may apply. - Penwhale | Blast the Penwhale 08:01, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] McCarthyism comments
Sometimes my reviews do bring up a lot of points, but if you look at some of those, they are just suggestions on how to improve the visual appearance of the article (1 & 2), and many are just simple mistakes that can be fixed (4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 14, 15, 16, & 17). I'm glad that you already fixed some of them. I know that I sometimes leave a lot of things to be fixed but I always leave the article on hold for seven days and in extreme cases longer than that. I don't like to fail articles (unless they deserve it), and I really think this article should be passed. Thanks for letting me know and good job fixing some of those suggestions. --Nehrams2020 17:28, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Joseph McCarthy
I would like to request mediation. I think you are continually removing sourced and neutral entries that improve this article. You assert that I am adding information that in your opinion is over-emphasized, trivial, and/or irrelevant. Mediation requires the agreement of both parties; thus my question- will you accept mediation? Kaisershatner 17:36, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
- Sure, go ahead. KarlBunker 00:46, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
- Karl, my apologies for running off in different directions. Before we move to mediation, which from what I am reading may take a very long time to resolve, I am going to invite a wider group of involved editors to comment. If they tell me I am way off base, for example, we might avoid a protracted argument that could be more simply resolved. Kaisershatner 17:18, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Louis Budenz
Thank you for your work on Mr Budenz' article. I am a relative of him and it is really interesting to find out what one of my distant uncles was up to.
[edit] Big Mac
If you'd consider taking another bite at it, write me at dancharlesgeist@hotmail.com —DCGeist 21:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Thanks /Tet
Thank you for the kind remarks you left on my talk page, I was pleased to read them. I appreciate your helpful, polite criticism at Tet. I hope it becomes a good article. KAM 00:21, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
