Talk:Reconquista (Mexico)

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Contents 1 Nationalism 2 It's a start 3 POV 4 Really 5 This Article is a Political Sermon 6 Additionally 7 Article seems fine as it is 8 Racism is growing dramatically in the latino movement 9 Unsourced material 10 AfD 11 Sources proving existence of reconquista movement 12 I'm not doubting your expertise in the matter but... 13 Problems with the article 14 Bizarre and inaccurate 15 Usage of "Reconquista" by non-racists 16 Use 17 Why this Article is a Crock of Liberalism 18 Manifest destiny? 19 Material removed 9 Aug 06 for violating WP:RS/WP:NPOV 20 Description of Movement, not just term 21 Should mayor V be included? 22 dehumanizing, etc.

[edit] Nationalism

Might as well say my piece before this two paragraph article becomes the scene of another edit war. The concept of recoquista can be seen mainly as an issue of nationalism, more specifically pan- or greater nationalism, like how the Sudeten Germans wanted to be part of the German nation-state, Serbia wanting control over Serb populated areas of Bosnia, etc. It happens all over the world. While the term is used by white racist against Hispanics, the same is true of Chicano nationalists who use the term with the same meaning, except for them it is a good thing. Both accuse the other of being "racists"

What you have here is a garden variety ethnic conflict with out a "good guy" or "bad guy" but simply two cultures living in the same area, with nationalist agitators in each camp. Surprised there is so much hub-bub about it.--Dudeman5685 17:13, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Well the hub-bub seems to come from the fact that the reconquista is not the name for the concept promoted by hispanic groups. It's a catch all term used to stir up feelings of fear induced hate among small groups of ethnic whites. Pretty soon even hispanic groups not associated with the original meaning of reconquista are accused of it in an attempt to marginalize them. I've added the link to the nativist article because reconquista really is used far more often by those groups than by any others. Mosquito-001 20:03, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

While it is certainly true that many anti-hispanic groups blow it out of porportion, is there not also a legitamite concern about a people concentrated on a nations borders, with ethnic links to the a nieghboring counrty and a feeling of victimhood and Romantic nationalism? Nor is it simply a structural question of oppressed/oppressor, just look at what happened, and is still happening in Kosovo. Other historical examples include the Sudetenland and East Prussia durring and immediatly after WW2--Dudeman5685 22:58, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

This isn't place though to argue imigration and nationalities policy. While reconquista is used by racist whites, racist hispanics, and non-racist immigration reformers, who each have their wn understanding of the term. Close inspection of world ethnic conflicts show that it is when each portays themself as being "oppressed" by the other, and each harps on how it has been victimized by the other (Hutu/Tutsi) (Israel/Palestine perfect example) the cycle of mutual distrust and hared only grows.--Dudeman5685 23:06, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Categorizing "reconquista" as simply another example of world ethnic conflicts is doing it a great disservice. It's a term wrapped up in the racial and ethnic history of the united states and, as far as I know, doesn't have any close parallels to the Israel/Palestine or Hutu/Tutsi conflicts. I could explain it further but you're probably better off googling the term and coming to your own conclusions. Mosquito-001 23:59, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Americas most grave error is thinking that it is exceptional--Dudeman5685 02:37, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

i used Israel and Rwanda only as generalizations of the dynamic of ethnic conflict around the world; that both sides can claim a greivance, that elements in either camp seek to keep the greivance against the other community alive etc, etc, In our specific case the kosovo and Sudentenland analogies are closest, though they don't involve migration so much as shifting borders--Dudeman5685 02:44, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] It's a start

It's imperfect, I know, additions? Subtractions?

This article has been kept following this VFD debate. Sjakkalle (Check!) 12:03, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] POV

Okay, if it's not VfD material, it certainly needs sourcing and a more neutral tone. It should have gotten a POV tag as soon as it came from VfD. If no one else does it, I'll gladly rewrite it to say "Some damned gringo conspiracy theory about how dark people are taking over. Typical honky bull." That should move the ball into someone else's court. That this kind of tone should persist here is unacceptable. --Diderot 17:46, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

I decided not to wait. The article now treats the whole idea as a load of crap. I expect to see documentary evidence to the contrary if the original claims are to be restored. --Diderot 18:28, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Really

I don't know, it seems to me that the article states the facts and does not argue one way or the other. Yes, there is a conspiracy theory, and yes, that is how anglo settlers initially took over much of the land on this side of the United States.

[edit] This Article is a Political Sermon

The bias of the article is obvious. It is not a statement of fact but an editorial. Both the article and statements made about it show the desire of people to have their opinions viewed as facts. At university campuses this trend is seen in the classroom where professors who view themselves as wise lecture their students in viewpoints and college-level courses serve as indoctrination sessions. A person who agrees with an author's viewpoint will call an article objective, while those who disagree will see it as propaganda. The article under discussion is clearly intended to convey a viewpoint to the readers. I wonder how much information in textbooks--including that which I was taught and believe--is really mere arguement of authors disguised as revelation.

[edit] Additionally

This ostensible plan of conquest is rife with hints of sexual repression and racism on the part of those who believe in it. '

Oh? How does the writer know what those who have beared witness to the Reconquista movement think or 'feel?" And how is this supposedly factual?

This article is crap. Period. But it serves the following purpose: it allows legal aliens and citizens to see the mindset of socialist "revolutionaries" in action. And the latter are damned fools.

[edit] Article seems fine as it is

This article is about a ridiculous belief held by a few grossly misinformed people. It does a good job of explaining what the belief is and where it might have come from. I would be for the deletion of this article if I wasn't worried it would show up under a different title with a few users trying to justify how ludicrous the whole notion is. Because of that I think the article should stay as it is and be protected. Mosquito-001 21:56, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Fixed the article on 1/13/06 to be more npov. Many people do not hold this belief, "some" do. It should also be mentioned what the majority of the public thinks of extreme groups that hold this belief. Mosquito-001 20:43, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Racism is growing dramatically in the latino movement

I recently graduated from college and not only did I have friends in Mecha but also family members. The reconquista movement is real, though it is not well organized. It is really more at the idea stage of it's development.They are often much more honest in private, and talk about "taking over" America in the future when more hispanics are in the US. Mecha members do believe that europeans are foreign invaders and that they should be driven out, but they lack the political, military and economic skills to do it. If you don't believe it, go to a Mecha website and read their words. In my opinion, they are the latino equivalent of the KKK as they are largely driven by hatred of what they preceive as anyone of European decent. The funny thing about this hatred, to me, is that most hispanics would rather live with gabachos in the US, than with their "own" countrymen at home- which has always made me wonder: if they do take over the US will they do a better job here than the one they did in their own homelands?

The issue that really isn't dealt with in America is that many races have racist groups that negatively impact our society, and Mecha is one of those groups. Members of Mecha, and similar groups, don't need to meet in dark rooms in the middle of the night to formulate kooky conspiracies, because they can do it in broad daylight on any university class in America without any concern that their racist views will be challanged. And like all racist groups, they hold can only talk about some "great" society that supposedly existed hundreds or even thousands of years ago. Europeans, and that includes the spanish ancestors of most mecha members, did come to the "new world" and exploit, murder, etc. the indigenous peoples. But that has been acknowledged in countless books, movies, college classes, etc, so much so that basically everyone takes it as truth. It's time to move on, because these things cannot be changed or undone, and quite frankly many Mecha members should embrace this since their spanish ancestors did a great deal of the murdering and raping. The Mexican people who live in the US ARE MIGRANTS, as their ancestors did not live on the great plains or the pacific northwest. They were inhabitants of Mexico and Central America. And the only reason they really come here is because their democratically elected governments have failed, so they come to land of the gabacho where they can live and raise families without fear of the corrupt governments they created.

Excuse me, I can't help noticing that while you insist on spreading such hateful views and deleting content on the article page AND discussion page, you don't sign your posts. Mosquito-001 19:41, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Wow, you pulled the "racist" card. I'm shocked. Haizum 01:00, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Now this is my post, How would such a movement take place? There are many different ethnicities that exist among the Hispanic "people" and wildly varying levels of English and Spanish proficiency. I just can't see the kind of organized movement forming that racist groups believe is happening. I am of mexican american decent, myself, and I have not once been invited to a meeting in the middle of the night, inside a dimly lit room, to discuss the reconquista conspiracy with other hispanics. No hispanic person I've talked to, that does not study hate groups, even knows of this weird conspiracy. So with all that said, I'm finding it really hard to believe that a few members of these racist/nativist hate groups have gained entrance to these reconquista meetings and are ready to blow the lid off the "movement." At any rate, due to the extreme amount of intermarriage between Caucasion and hispanic people, it would seem such a movement would be extremely hard to keep secret.Mosquito-001 19:44, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

First, let me put my (race) cards right on the table--I'm mixed white and chicano and I look totally white (most people don't believe me when I say I am part Mexican). Anyway, my own experience with Mecha has been positive, and the actual people in the organization don't really seem to follow all the reconquista and strong nationalist agendas that the organization's rhetoric seems to support. Most of the Mechistas I've interacted with definitely do not hate whites. Last year a white friend of mine and I were in a Latino youth empowerment group that UC Davis Mecha outreached to, and we were welcomed very much by the Mechistas. Most of what they do seems to be quite positive. They tutor high-school students, try to increase the number of Latinos in higher education, work to empower the community and other beneficial things. Never once did a Mechista talk about wanting to reconquer the US and such. Mecha is hardly racist as far as I can tell. I was actually suprised by how much I was welcomed. I myself felt really insecure at first because I thought I would be treated suspiciously, since like I said, I'm mostly white European, and don't look at all chicano/latino/hispanic (this also comes down partially to my trying to accept my identity as mixed-race, which can be quite challenging, especially since I felt like I wasn't chicano enough to be in the group). Despite this, they treated me no differently than anyone else, and my other friend who has no hispanic blood in her at all was also welcomed. And I had some political conversations with these people and they know I wouldn't have been up in arms if they started talking about reconquista, but they never did. I think it's the furthest thing on most of their minds. The Ungovernable Force 01:21, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unsourced material

• Some groups, that many would categorize as "hate" groups, believe that Mecha, as well as similar groups, intentionally mislead the general public on this subject because the group realizes that they would lose popular support from the general public for such bizarre position. Opponents point out that any Mecha web site clearly states removing, what Mecha members refer to as, foreign invaders or "gabachos"(people of european decent)from the Americas as a central goal. Mecha also refers to the Americas as the "bronze continent," which is clearly a designation refering to the long history of the Hispanic people in America. This upsets many "nativist" groups in the United States. Curiously, these "nativist" groups are almost exclusively made up of those of "white" protestant descent. The Mexican Government has denied any territorial claims. The conspiracy of the reconquista bears many similarites to the way the American West was "tamed" during the 1800's. Many of those involved in civil rights surmise that the reconquista conspiracy is fueled by an irrational fear, on the part of many white "rights" groups, of the growing number of "minorities" in the United States and that history will be repeated with the "minorities taking over."

This text has no sources to support it, and makes a number of POV claims. I've removed it until we can find references to cite. -Will Beback 23:21, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] AfD

There is no source for this material. In my research using Mexican-American primary sources, I have found only one document that used the word "reconquista" in the context referred to in the article. The reality is that the word "reconquista" is primarily used by alarmists, who employ it to sensationalize what most people see as simply a gradual demographic shift. If it sourced this right-wing material, much of which is available on the web, I might consider voting against its deletion. But as it stands, I think the article ought to be deleted. It is written from a POV, unsourced, and only marginally important, as the anti-illegal immigration movement is at best third-rail issue in American politics. If no one objects soon, I'll tag it for deletion.--Rockero 23:49, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

The illegal immigration issue is anything but a third rail of American politics. State legislatures across the country are enacting or debating laws to control the spread of illegals. The US House of Representatives passed a bill last month to curb illegals. A recent CBS poll showed that 80% of Americans, that's republicans and democrats, are tired of the drain on local economies that illegal aliens represent. Proposition 200 in Arizona was sponsored by a supporter of Ralph Nader, it overwelmingly passed. Americans are tired of footing the bill for mexico's failures.

I object to this article being deleted. The only ones who oppose it's presence seem to be Mecha members or supporters (misquito & rockero). If it is deleted it will not be because it is false or misleading.

I agree this debate over the article has gone on for too long. It's basically an article about a conspiracy theory, with very little evidence, that was started to accuse a Mexican American civil rights organization of racism and many other baseless claims. I've deleted all references to MECHA and I've left in controversial groups. If those who keep editing this article keep refusing to cite which "groups" or "some people" keep making these claims, the accusations will be deleted.Mosquito-001 23:57, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Enough of the talk here's the truth which is available to anybody at any mecha website:

It is laughable that anyone, except mecha members, believe that mecha is anything but a racist organization. I think it just goes to show that no matter how educated you are, racism runs to the bone. Thank you rockero for restoring misquitos posts, but not restoring the ones I wrote which misquito deleted. Your "objectivity" is noted.

I'm having a hard time finding anything in that plan that is expressly racist. It actually lists various grievances that the organization had against those that would oppress them which considering the time period, the 1960s, is very understandable. BTW shouldn't this be on the MECHA page instead of the reconquista page?Mosquito-001 01:23, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Suprise, suprise. Classifying all "white" people as foreign invaders isn't racist? Calling them racially motivated names like "gabacho" and "gringo" isn't racist? I bet you would feel differently if someone was calling you a racist name like "beaner" or "wetback." There is a double standard.

"El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán" never uses the word "reconquista". It calls for the creation of a political party, not for the military re-conquest of the SW U.S. by Mexico. Where does "reconquista" appear in print? What are our sources? -Will Beback 19:12, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Where do the words "right to privacy" appear in the constitution? They don't, but they can be infered from the text. If you refer to all "europeans" as foreign invaders and you talk about your races duty to "reclaim" the land from the foreign invaders it is no stretch to infer what the point of it is. I first heard the word reconquista at a Mecha meeting at my college, and it was used by Mecha members to remind their members that this was not the "Americans" lands, it belong to the "indigenous" peoples and one day they would take it back. If you are unaware of the extreme racist elements within Mecha, then you are out of the loop (either that or you support their position.) I never said it would be a military conquest, hell, I think our common citizens could defeat the Mexican army. What I believe, and what Mecha teaches, is that people from Mexico do not have to follow our laws because this is not our land- it is theirs. This is why they support illegal immigration so strongly, they want as many of what they see as "their people" to come here so that they can gain electoral majorities and influence our elections (which they already do to a certain extant).

I think it is silly for one reason- it doesn't even begin to address why they really come here: their corrupt democratically elected governments have failed them. But it allows them to do what all racists do: focus on the boogeymen. The boogeyman in this case is "whitey," "cracker," "gabacho," or whatever. Whitey is the foreign invader that must be driven out to purify the land. It's assine, but stupid people follow stupid ideas. I'm part hispanic, but I don't need false pride in my race to feel good about myself. I want an America of laws. Our ancestors all came here for pretty much the same reason: the place where they were living were screwed up, and that hasn't changed. People who come here to break the laws ruin our country, because that unwillingness to follow laws is exactly what screwed up the country where they came from.

I'm not really surprised that you focus in on those words yet skip right over the part where various grievances are discussed. However, I can see how taking those words out of context and ignoring the crimes that are discussed in the "plan" can lead one to believe that it is nothing more than hate speech. BTW using four consecutive tildes, after you are signed in, will automatically sign your post for you. I recommend going back and doing this to all your posts because it is really hard for other users to tell if they are talking to the same person or someone just jumping into the discussion. Thank you.Mosquito-001 19:39, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

YOU HAVE NO GREIVANCE. There were no crimes committed against you. MECHA HAS NO GREIVANCE. there were no crimes comitted against mecha members. But I can guarantee YOUR ancestors committed crimes against the indigenous peoples of Mexico, central america and south america if you have any Mexican ancestory. It was your ancestors who came to the Americas from Spain with their Roman Catholicism and their spanish language to murder rape and plunder the new world. Your ancestors destroyed the aztecs. Your greivance is with your own flesh and blood, you just don't like to hear it. If you want to change the world apologize for your ancestors war crimes and begin a new life, but don't lecture me about it from a hypocritical point of view.

Right now we're just giving our own opinions here. Without sources we don't have anything that can be put in the article. If we can't find sources for MECha using the term, maybe we can find sources for American Patrol using the term. If we can't find any sources at all, then we should just delete the article. -Will Beback 01:22, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Whoever you are, I find your hate for a group of people absolutely disturbing. I really did want to give you the benefit of the doubt here. You could have edited the article in a useful manner and named which groups accuse Mecha of this belief, you could have signed your posts, and you could have engaged in a civil discussion on the talk page but you didn't. Instead we end up with an anonymous user who is on a personal crusade against civil rights groups. Seriously let go of the hate dude. It's not good for you.Mosquito-001 01:26, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Just an fyi skeeter, nobody but you thinks that mecha is a civil rights organization. They are racist. You may be able to control what is said on this page, but people across this country are catching on to what mecha, and similar groups, are really all about. There was a trickle of reporting about it in the last election cycle. I saw reports on CNN, FOX, CBS and NBC where people were getting the word out about Mecha, and you won't stop that. Mecha can't hide in the shadows anymore and spew their racial hatred in secret.Like the KKK, mechas racist positions will be it's downfall. Don't get sucked into it skeeter, I'll be praying for you.

Got any sources bob or just the voices coming through your tinfoil hood? So you've "seen reports?" That's cool, you must have links to reports about the reconquista from reputable mainstream news outlets? Right? You also seem very knowledgable about Mecha so I can't help but wonder why you don't move on over to the Mecha wiki.Mosquito-001 03:09, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources proving existence of reconquista movement

www.aztlan.net Professor Predicts 'Hispanic Homeland' By The Associated Press Republica del NorteALBUQUERQUE, N.M. — A University of New Mexico Chicano Studies professor predicts a new, sovereign Hispanic nation within the century, taking in the Southwest and several northern states of Mexico. Charles Truxillo suggests the “Republica del Norte,” the Republic of the North, is “an inevitability.” Truxillo, 47, has said the new country should be brought into being “by any means necessary,”

Here's another source: A breakaway of U.S. states is a distinct possibility, according to prominent Chicano activist and University of California at Riverside professor Armando Navarro. In an interview with WorldNetDaily, Navarro would not answer directly whether he shared separatist aspirations, but said that if demographic and social trends continue, secession is inevitable. "A secessionist movement is not something that you can put away and say it is never going to happen in the United States," he continued. "Time and history change."

El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán

In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud historical heritage but also of the brutal "gringo" invasion of our territories, we, the Chicano inhabitants...of Aztlán from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their birth.. Aztlán belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and not to the foreign Europeans.

Brotherhood unites us, and love for our brothers makes us a people whose time has come and who struggles against the foreigner "gabacho" who exploits our riches and destroys our culture. With our heart in our hands and our hands in the soil, we declare the independence of our mestizo nation.

Bustamante Won't Renounce Ties to Chicano Student Group Thursday, August 28, 2003

LOS ANGELES — California Lt. Gov. Cruz Bustamante (search), the grandson of Mexican immigrants who counts improving race relations among his biggest pursuits, refused Thursday to renounce his past ties to a little-known Hispanic organization considered by critics to be as racist as the Ku Klux Klan. MEChA has used violence in the past to make its case. At a July 4 celebration in 1996, members of the group, who call themselves Mechistas, were videotaped attacking black and white Americans protesting illegal immigration. In 1993, students at UCLA caused $500,000 worth of damage during protests to demand a Chicano studies department. MEChA has also been associated with anti-Semitic groups like Nation of Aztlan. MEChA's motto is "for the race, everything. For those outside the race, nothing." Critics say affiliation with that kind of group could spell political ruin for a white candidate and are upset that little attention has been paid to Bustamante's relationship with the group. He belonged to MEChA while attending Fresno State University in the 1970s. According to the organization's constitution, "Chicanas and Chicanos must ... politicize our Raza [race] ... and struggle for the self-determination of the Chicano people for the purpose of liberating Aztlan."

Aztlan (search) is the area that is currently the southwest United States, but Mechistas claim Aztlan is their homeland to be returned to Mexico and the group says white Americans who currently govern these areas must be removed from power.

"What is a moderate member of a racist organization? 'I was a moderate member of the Klan.' Imagine if a Republican made that statement," Elder said.

"I think he should answer for his membership in the group," said syndicated columnist Michelle Malkin. "I think he needs to explain why he has not disassociated himself from a group that is violent, which has caused riots on campus and which has preached anti-Semitism and anti-black ideology."

This can be found at the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) website under Nation of Aztlan: Introduction

The Nation of Aztlan (NOA), first organized in the early 1990s, is a California-based Hispanic nationalist organization that claims to represent the desires and aspirations of the Hispanic community. The organization calls for the United States to return "Aztlan" territory - Aztlan being the mythic homeland of the Mexican people, or Aztecs, which according to legend is found in the American Southwest or Northern Mexico. The group's nationalist message is blurred by frequent appeals anti-Semitism, anti-Zionism, homophobia and other expressions of hatred.Hispanic rights activists revived the story of Aztlan in the 1960s. Beyond a mere physical site, Aztlan has become a metaphor for the geographic, historical and spiritual home of many indigenous people in the Southwest. The NOA seeks to create a separate nation in the area now "occupied" roughly by California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas.

The Sierra Times had a quote from a member of MEChA:

“Asked about his group’s ideology and intentions, Miguel Perez of Cal State-Northridge’s MEChA chapter replied: “The ultimate ideology is the liberation of Aztlán. Communism would be closest [to it].” Once Aztlán is established, continued Perez, ethnic cleansing would commence: “Non-Chicanos would have to be expelled opposition groups would be quashed because you have to keep power.”

There is ample evidence not only for the continued existence of this article, but an expansion of it's origins and detailed information on it's supporters.

four tildes in a row, it's not that hard Mosquito-001 17:44, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Uages of the term "reconquista" still needs a source. The Miguel Perez quote has often been copied onto websites, but no original source is given, so it is dubious. -Will Beback 20:52, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

The Sierra Times is the source, so the quote is anything but dubious. If you have a legitmate reason for doubting their reporting- let's hear it. The reality is that the four sources cited, from the mainstream press, show that the sentiment known as "reconquista" exists. The term "reconquista" doesn't need any further source. The phrase is acknowledged by supporters and detractors in terms of it's meaning. Saying that the plot doesn't exist isn't the same as saying the word to describe the plot doesn't exist. The plot could be a farce and yet the accepted word to describe the plot would still exist. The "second shooter theory" describes the idea that there were two shooters for the Kennedy assasination, many people don't believe in the theory but still understand what the phrase "second shooter" means. Even if the theory was conclusively eliminated as a possibilty the phrase second shooter would still exist to describe the disproven theory. It is the term used by many in the public and the media to describe the concept that part of the US was stolen from Mexico, and certain radical elements want it back. The evidence above clearly demostrates that that belief exists, if you chose to disregard it that's OK, but millions of people still believe in it's existence and use the phrase to describe it. It is irelevant who coined the term, it has a common usage and meaning which people clearly recognize.

Can you please provide links to these sources? Thanks, -Will Beback 22:12, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

millions of people? I somehow doubt this. However, I am in favor of the sources for the reconquista theory being mentioned in the article along with verifiable comments from supporters AND detractors. I am in favor of this article not being deleted but only if it is treated like a wikipedia article and not a typical page on a neo-nazi website. Your previous edits which consisted of stuff like "some people say,""some critics," along with other very pov accusations are not going to cut it and will only result in me and other people having the article edited and asking for it to be locked again Mosquito-001 22:22, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

No Will, I won't. I gave you more than enough info to look them up yourself. All the source info is there. And skeeter, the only "neo-nazi" type stuff is found in connection with mecha and it's ilk. My edits were no worse than yours. I've provided you with just a few of my "some people say" and "some critics" sources, where are yours? You have offered no support for your positions other than the standard "I'm right and everyone who disagrees with me is racist." As far as I'm concerned anyone who wants to delete this article is serving some personal interest. No objective person who has done even a tiny amount of research could conclude that there are no people espousing what is called "reconquista" agenda, an agenda which is clothed in racist nationalistic hispanic diatribe.I don't mind both sides being in the article, but that means real quotes from chicano studies professors who do espouse the views of reconquista. If you want to point out that they use different names for it that's fine- but be honest about it. We can debate about what the level of support is, but there can be no debate about it's existence.

Without reliable sources we have no basis for this article. If you don't want to provide them, that's too bad. Quotations taken out of context aren't sufficient. Please read Wikipedia:verifiability and Wikipedia:reliable sources. Thanks, -Will Beback 00:38, 18 January 2006 (UTC)-

The quotations weren't taken out of context and you know it. The sources are 100% reliable and you know it.It doesn't matter whether it's been proven to your liking the reality is that idea exists and I have proven it to any reasonable standard. BTW- I read the verifiability standards andYou obviously have an you might want to reread them: "understand that they should refer only to facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have already been published by a reputable publisher," and "Articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable or credible sources, regardless of whether individual editors view that material as true or false." I have easily met these standards. Thanks! axe to grind.

Axe, the Sierra Times is probably not a reliable source due to its extreme political POV, and since you haven't given us a link to their article we only have your word for it anyway. That's not verifiable. -Will Beback 01:59, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I am familiar with the work of Truxillo. It could indeed be considered "separatist", and has been cited in mainstream publications. So in one sense, you are correct, axe, in that there probably should be an article on this phenomenon. But the point is that the title associated with said article must be reliable. I don't care if you do cite a crazy source, really. There is worse stuff on Wikipedia. But failing that, it should maybe be moved to Mexican American separatism, or something like that, maybe with a redirect, because what we have smacks of original research.--Rockero 02:41, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

There has already been a debate on this issue, as noted at the top of this page, and this article was deemed a keeper. As one of the contributors to that debate noted, a search on google for reconquista brings 100,000 hits. It is the word which most people, who attempt to discuss this issue , use to describe this position.The article can easily discuss the seperatist position, those within the hispanic community who disagree (or don't care), and what the perception of outside groups looking in is.

This article was deemed a "keeper" after it was decided that it could be improved with further research and less POV. By research, I do not mean original research. This might be hard to do because of the very nature of conspiracy theories. If there were a ton of evidence for it, it wouldn't be in the realm of conspiracy theories. If the article were to be kept and expanded, I think it should be offlimits to anonymous users and new accounts. Otherwise I think we'll quickly see the return of the vandalism that this article was previously swept up in. This article can be informative without using alarmist tactics. Mosquito-001 04:16, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't vandalism- it was truth. You don't like the negative conotations associated with groups like Mecha (are you a member?), but the fact is that the perception is spreading and not just by racist. There is a "reconquista" movement, and we can debate the size and scope but not the existence. To me, you just want to argue about the name and not whether the idea exists, because it's difficult to defend what some of your perceived "comrades" are saying. It's ok to acknowledge that some latinos are racist and nationalistic, because there is ample evidence for it, and you do no diservice to your race by admitting it. Racism/tribal mentatlity, in my opinion, has more to do with every war fought since the beginning of time than religion and maybe even money. Humans are masters of division, we are constantly putting ourselves into groups and subgroups in an effort to set ourselves apart, or distinquish ourselves, from others. Look at any racist organization, they all do the same things: we are different,we need to be unified, we need to push an agenda that supports us, and negative descriptions of those who are perceived as "different": nigger, honky, beaner, gook, whitey, wetback, jungle bunny, cracker, slant eyes, gabacho, spic.

It looks like you're right about the Google test. While most of the hits were about Spain, the second hit is from The Barnes Review, apparently a revisionist historian website (I'm not familiar with it) about secessionism. But Mexico secession yields 450,000 hits, Mexican separatist yields 228,000, Chicano nationalism yields 91,200. To be fair, Reconquista Mexico yields 285,000. So it should be fair to consider renaming or at least discussing.--Rockero 04:34, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

That's fine, but reconquista is the word people are using to describe the concept. As time passes, a one word descrption is more likely to become the chosen descrptive term over a two word description mainly because of ease of usage (the word "goodbye" evolved from "god be with you.") But as long as reconquista is mentioned in the article that's fine. I think it also has to be acknowledged in the article that many mecha members do believe that part of the united states was wrongly taken, or stolen, from Mexico. Because it is true. I have listened to mecha speeches and I have family members who are in it. And that is where I first heard about all of this. That isn't to say all want to take it back, but I can't see any objectively honest way to say that the sentiment doesn't exist within certain segments of the movement.

That is cool with me.--Rockero 00:31, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I'm not doubting your expertise in the matter but...

The article badly needs sources. It seems the last editor fell into the same trap that so many other editors before him fell into, before the article was finally locked. I would edit it myself but I'm having trouble finding any con sources that refer to the reconquista by name. There's more than enough pro sources on the matter but I am not doing a piecemeal edit. I'm also kind of lazy and would prefer to clean up someone else's edit rather than do the HUGE overhaul that the article presently requires. Mosquito-001 00:50, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I forgot to do an edit summary. By no means is my edit a defining one. I tried to put in a link but it came out kinda sloppily and the whole article just needs to be more informative. Hopefully my edit will get the ball rolling though. Mosquito-001 20:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with the article

As it stands right now, the article claims to document a conspiracy theory held by some group of people. Is there a source that tells me that anyone out there believes this theory and has stated so publically? In short, it's not clear to me that this article is notable. --Deville (Talk) 20:42, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I have actually seen it mentioned on America patrol's website. Of course that's hardly a valid source which is the whole problem with finding sources for conspiracy theories. BTW The article has been suggested for deletion but it just keeps coming back so there's clearly a need for it Mosquito-001 03:35, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, then, would it be possible to find an explicit link which shows that there is some community which subscribes to this theory? Don't get me wrong, it certainly sounds plausible to me that some crazy xenophobic dudes might be talking about this, but on the other hand, we want to make sure this isn't something made up in school one day... --Deville (Talk) 04:33, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I first learned about this term (and as a result found this article) a while ago during the hispanic student marches in Los Angeles from some news source - I can't remember if it was Lou Dobbs or who. I wish I could remember, i'll try searching some media outlet sources on my freetime this week and see if that'll be good enough to change the article. I don't like how the article stands - it claiming that only racists believe this term is used by some militant (or otherwise reactionary) hispanics about trying to "reconquer" the soutwest, I believe, isn't true. I do believe this article is notable, though, simply because, as i've said, I got it from a media source (probably either CNN or MSNBC - their what I usually watch). --Jelligraze 13:59, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bizarre and inaccurate

Does anyone here believe that "reconquista" is a word familiar to white racists? The phrase (or analogy to the gradual repopulation and reconquest of Moorish Spain) was coined by Mexican writers Elena Poniatowska and Carlos Fuentes. It was partly a joke and partly a distinctly non-racist demographic observation. That is to say, some Mexican intellectuals (neither anti-American) observed similarities between the slow return of Christians to the Iberian peninsula and the reemergence of Mexican culture in the Southwest. Paranoid groups of all stripes appear to have pounced on the word as proof of some sort of Chicano Nationalist plot, or, conversely, a White Supremacist plot to invent a fake plot. This is completely irrelevant to the real and interesting coinage, ie "Reconquista", which describes a real and interesting phenomenon with objective and quantifiable dimensions. (Number of Spanish speakers, diffusion of cuisine and culture, etc.) None of the wikiwriters seem to have the slightest idea what they are talking about. This kind of nonsense discredits the idea of a publicly edited encyclopedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.5.79.49 (talk • contribs).

I liked your revision so I'll leave the page as it is. The word "reconquista" is very familiar to white racists, though, take a look at the American patrol link in the article and numerous other hate website. Mosquito-001 00:42, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Usage of "Reconquista" by non-racists

I've done a little bit of research (about five minutes worth) and have stumbled across a blog by Glenn Reynolds, professor of Law at the University of Tennessee, hosted on MSNBC.com. I don't really have much time to do more thorough research at the moment, so this will suffice for now.

Within the blog there is an entry published on April 10, 2006 entitled "Annex Mexico?" inwhich he fights for the rights of illegal immigrants to be granted jobs in America. While doing so, however, he makes mention of the Reconquista movement and attributes the term to those who think that the Southwestern United States should go back to Mexico. I'll try to search more next week when I have more ample time. Blog entires found here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3395977/

However, I should also mention that there is far less information on the term's use in CNN and MSNBC then I originally thought. So while it may still be used by non-racists, it may not be a popular term. And there still isn't verifiable documentation of actual groups or names that strive for this movement. I know that I heard this term mentioned in this way on either MSNBC or CNN weeks ago though. I'll keep searching. --Jelligraze 20:29, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use

The big problem we are having on this article is that both the meaning and the use of the word "Reconquista" are varied: Does it refer to a Mexicanization of the US Southwest peacefully, via repopulation? Or a conspiratorial scheme, possibly including armed insurrection? Fuentes and Poniatowska obviously meant the former. The blog that was recently added as "an opposing view" to the external links section (just beneath the American Patrol EL) credits Glenn Spencer himself as the architect of the conspiratorial definition (although fears of irredentism originally surfaced with the Chicano Movement-btw I left it for the meantime, but I think we'll have to mine that blog for info and sources and remove the link). It is due to the popularization of the term by exclusionists and nationalist groups that conservatives began to use it. So when "mainstream" people like Malkin and Reynolds look at the 2006 U.S. immigration reform protests and Samuel P. Huntington look at the numbers and say "reconquista is happening", they are correct inasmuch as they are observing the reconquista the Mexican intellectuals describe. But they don't make the distinction between the "two reconquistas". To this day there is no record of collusion between the Mexican government and MEChA, the NCLR, or anyone else to reclaim the United States. So the conspiratorial definition remains a conspiracy theory. ("Separatist sentiment", i.e. Chicano nationalism, is a different story entirely.) But the "reconquista" of Fuentes is very real, and ought not to be described as a movement at all, as its political aspects are not organized as such. Hopefully we can work together to straighten this out and create a better article.--Rockero 00:25, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why this Article is a Crock of Liberalism

The Spanish Reconquista had to do with Christians routing Muslims. Since there is no significant religious rift between Americans and Mexicans, clearly it is about race. If not, then what? You actually think the proponents of the North American Reconquista simply want to reestablish the border based on dated survey claims? Please. Haizum 01:07, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there is arguably a religous deminsion between the prodestand whites/placks and the Ctholic Mexican/chicanos.

It might be illustrative to look at the Cananda/Quebec problem in contrast to this. The problem qith the Quebed nationalist is that, in want a state for themselves, that either implicitly or explictlymeant excluding and/or discrimenating against the non-French ethic groups living there. That is why the Quebec First Nations (Canadian Indians), Jamaicans, as well as the Anglo-phone Canucks in Q were against seperation.

If the Chicanos were given "soveraignty" over the southwest, do you think that the Black, asian, Native American, not to mention "oppressor" white population would be guranteed their civil rights? I doubt it--Dudeman5685 16:39, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Manifest destiny?

This paragraph in the text is a questionable POV:

It should be noted that the tribes of present-day Mexico never habitated the US Southwest, nor for the most part did Mexicans themselves as it was mostly open land except for northern Native Americans, therefore in a real sense "Reconquista" is simply the Mexican equivalent of manifest destiny.

The reconquista is not about whether Mexican tribes lived in the US, but about "re-conquering" the land lost to the US after the US-Mexican war. Therefore the analogy with manifest destiny is not valid: manifest destiny was about expanding the US to territories that were not theirs, while the reconquista is about recovering territory that used to belong to Mexico. Itub 23:53, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Virginia's colonial charter claimed land all the way to the Pacific. So in a sense manifest destiny was really just re-conquering what others were squatting on...and the reconquista is equivalent. Justforasecond 23:46, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

No it isn't.--Rockero 23:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I removed the paragraph shortly after it was restored the first time, and it was restored again with the edit summary "rv -- rockero, please seek consensus on talk".

First of all, there are all of three comments on the talk: Two opposed and one in favor. I think that's hardly a consensus. Secondly, as Itub points out, "The reconquista is not about whether Mexican tribes lived in the US", which makes the first part of the paragraph irrelevant. Secondly, I have a problem with your defense of the addition: Do you mean that since the Virginia charter claimed the land all the way to Pacific, all of the land actually became part of the US? And that the aboriginal inhabitants were squatting on "US land"? If this were the case, I could see how the American conquest of the west might be seen as a sort of "Reconquista", but there are several problems with the logic behind thesse assumptions. As should be evident from the amount of discussion on this talkpage, this article really needs to be re-written. Here is the compromise I propose: We remove the assertion that "Reconquista is the Mexican equivalent of Manifest Destiny", but leave a link to Manifest Destiny as a see also. The when I (or whoever does it) gets around to rewriting this thing, The community will be in a better position to judge whether the link is a propos or not. Sound good?--Rockero 00:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

1) Spain arrived almost a century before than Virginia charter! The northern border of New Spain was apparently not well defined until 1819 in a treaty, but it was agreed in a more peaceful way than the US invasion of Mexico (just to point out a major difference). 2) "Reconquista" is a metaphor for the demographic tendencies in the US southwest. It is not about actually expanding Mexican territory, and therefore unrelated with manifest destiny, which was about territorial expansion in a literal sense. I think this is the major point of disagreement. 3) There are Mexican tribes, such as the Yaquis, which inhabited parts of northern Mexico and parts of the US southwest (just to show that the paragraph in question is non accurate more than one way.) Itub 00:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Whatever, this debate could get increasingly ridiculous. A FEW spaniards were in California when Virginia was chartered, in 1606, but if any Virginians travelled to the Central Valley to grow tobacco I'd cough up a lung in shock. England claimed California in 1579 ... but as far as I can tell just planted a flag and departed. The first Mission, a precursor to actual cities, was not set up until 1769, more than 150 years after the Virginia charter. When Mexico gained independence there were still hardly any spaniards in California. When the U.S. annexed the state what I've read says the numbers were about the same, with a few thousand Spanish-speakers well outnumbered by English-speakers. So yeah, Mexico claimed this land for a while, but it was a pretty tenuous claim, comparable to the English claim. As for the Indians, I don't know enough to say whether there were border tribes that have been disenfranchised. It wouldn't surprise me if a few were, but I haven't read about Natives being carted down from NoCal across the border. Justforasecond 00:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Material removed 9 Aug 06 for violating WP:RS/WP:NPOV

Sources given: 1) compares similarities between the hunt for Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan and the hunt 100 years prior for Poncho Villa in Mexico. In no way a source for what is presented here.

2) by Carlos Fuentes, from the article: “True to the barracks mentality dangerously infecting great swaths of Israeli society, Sharon makes no distinction between Yasser Arafat and Osama bin Laden.” This article concerns Israeli/Palestinian politics, no mention is made of Mexico or Reconquista, and the US is mentioned only in passing as a supporter of Israel.

4) Relates to a particularly vulgar article tilted “Jews against Islam: The War of Cartoons” Anti-Semitic, but unrelated to this page or its subject. http://www.aztlan.net/hitler_frank.htm

3) a forum for people who play Star Wars based games, and other related games. Hardly WPRS. Nothing here supports using this as a source, reliable or not. Just a bunch of gamers taking positions on the protests marches. Includes a pro/con discussion of shooting people who illegally cross the border, and whether it’s moral to include women and children, or just men.

5) Alex Jones’s rightwing conspiracy website, where most of this material comes from. Please see the official policy WP:RS This site does not meet the standard set out there.

Brimba 05:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

It does appear that most of those sources are irrelevant or not notable, except for #4. It is indeed a particularly vulgar article spouting hatred against Jews and published by La Voz de Aztlan. Certainly some mention of this would be appropriate. TheKaplan 19:45, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

If anywhere, it should be mentioned on the Voz de Aztlan page, but since all they do is spout antisemitic garbage, suffice it to say just that, which the article already does (at least the last time I checked).--Rockero 06:52, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Description of Movement, not just term

What we need is a page that describes the actual movement, not just the term. It could either be a reworking of this article, or be a new article called "(something) Irridentism" or similar. This article could then either redirect to it or be a sub-article on terminology. As the article stands now, it reads like some kind of conspiracy theory rather than the actual movement that it is. While we may disagree on how popular it is in the pro-immigration/pro-illegal immigration camp, there should be no doubt as to it's existence. If there are no objections, I will start working on the new article. Happy editing to all, TheKaplan 20:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I have doubts as to its existence. VoA may have a website, but I have not seen any evidence to suggest that there is a movement behind them or even any more than three people associated with the site. As far as sentiment goes, there has been resistance to US control of the US Southwest ever since it gained that control. Few of the actual movements that resisted or resist is are irredentist. The only episodes I can think of are the brief "occupation" of Catalina Island by the Brown Berets in the name of (but not under the auspices of) Mexico. This article ought to be rewritten as I prescribe above, as a discussion of the two major variations of the way in which the word "Reconquista", when applied to the "Mexicanization of the US Southwest", is used. Discussion, along with any evidence contrary to or in any other way differing from what I have stated, is of course welcome.--Rockero 03:36, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

It does appear that most of those sources are irrelevant or not notable, except for #4. It is indeed a particularly vulgar article spouting hatred against Jews and published by La Voz de Aztlan. Certainly some mention of this would be appropriate.

It would certainly be appropriate to place something concerning this matter on the La Voz de Aztlan page - Voz de Aztlán - as they published the article. However, their hatred of Jews is immaterial to the subject of this page as it fails to in any way define or enhance the reader’s/user’s understanding of the concept. Beyond that I think Rockero is on the right track. Brimba 06:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I can certainly agree with Rockero's "This article ought to be rewritten as I prescribe above, as a discussion of the two major variations of the way in which the word "Reconquista", when applied to the "Mexicanization of the US Southwest", is used." With this article directed toward terminology, we should then create an article on the actual movement that the term has been used to describe, including all forms these related territorial claims to the United States. For just one example of (and really all that's neccesary to prove) the actual existence of the movement, look here. [[1]] Happy editing, TheKaplan 00:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

There is already an article on the Mexica Movement, which, according to their website, is not about the restoration of Mexican sovereignty whatsoever. And just because a group calls itself "Movement" does not mean it constitutes or represents a movement. The reason there's no article on any "real Reconquista movement" is because there is none.--Rockero 06:39, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

We're not neccesarily talking about mexican sovereignty at all. I have been struggling to nail it down just because I cannot find the appropriate terminology. Let me try again. We have articles on the Minuteman Project, American Patrol, FAIR, and yet we also have an article on immigration reduction as a movement/philosophy. We may already have articles on the individual organizations advocating what i will call this time (in another attempt to pin down what I have been trying to say) the establishment of an indigenous state. The movement/philosophy is as real as the immigration reductionist movement philosophy. If you attend the immigration protests or if you take a look at any of the videos of them, the protesters/counter-protesters (depending on which side has the permit that time) are carrying signs that say "this is our land" "go back to europe" "there are no borders" etc, handing out pamphlets which detail the idea of/right to the indigenous state, and yelling things similar to the sign slogans. It exists. TheKaplan 21:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the problem you are having, Kaplan, is that you are trying to unite various movements, causes, and organizations with disparate motives and goals under a solitary banner that does not correspond to reality. Your point is well-taken: There has been resistance (military, political, philosophical, etc.) to colonization, American expansionism, and and the assertion of political dominance of other governments in this hemisphere since the beginning of said processes, and while this topic is currently underrepresented on Wikipedia and might deserve its own umbrella article (something along the lines of Indigenous resistance to colonization or some such), the topics it brings up are discussed in various articles: American Indian resistance to US expansionism and domination is found in Indian Wars and its sub-articles and American Indian Movement, for example, Mexican American resistance to the same is (or will eventually be) discussed in the Chicano Movement article, Indigenous resistance to Mexican domination is touched upon in EZLN and elsewhere, while Tupac Amaru might discuss indigenous resistance in Peru. I agree that there are cultural underpinnings of resistance to US/White domination, but I disagree that it constitutes a unified political or social movement. The history and vagaries of the U.S. anti-immigration movement have been documented in sufficient enough detail to account for the various manifestations of said movement throughout history and across a broad geographic range, which allows for greater variety and complexity than I fear would be available for a parallel topic on the resistance "movement", which would lead to an overly-simplistic account of the history and the sentiments that underly it. Such oversimplification leads to reactionary sentiments and actions, where I fear there is a potential for violence. I can only think of a few works that present a synthetic view of indigenous resistance to US hegemony, only two that present such a view of Chicano history, and none that present a view that unites Chicano and indigenous resistance under one umbrella. If our sources don't tell the story that way, our attempts to do so will constitute original research. Thoughts?--Rockero 23:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Now I've seen the same signs you have. Especially the one that says "this is our land." I've also seen "go back to europe" a few times too. Granted these signs are controversial but what do they mean? "This is our land" could mean the sign wielder is an extremely patriotic person just like a white guy who says "this is my land." That doesn't seem weird to me. He could also mean "this is my land and NO ONE elses." Maybe he means "this is my land too." "Go back to europe" could mean the guy is angry about illegal white immigration which has been a huge problem for over a hundred years. Maybe he's just racist. Neither of us knows. If you mix in some Lou Dobbs and some good ol' hate mongering though you get a full fledged "movement." That's exactly why I wish this article could have been deleted and stayed deleted. 90% of its edits are based on but I heard it from a friend who read it on the save our state forums type sources.Mosquito-001 02:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Rockero, you are probably right about the lack of unification as a movement, but as a philosophy as well? Surely there is enough coherence there. True, it is discussed on various pages, but nowhere is it cleary summarized and put in a broader context. I am thinking right now of the difficulty that someone unfamiliar with wikipedia would have finding this information on wikipedia if they did not know exactly where to look.

Mosquito: don't pretend you don't know exactly what the signs and chants mean. If you are going to defend or ascribe to that viewpoint, then go ahead, but don't pretend it doesn't mean what it means. And why would you have us delete a valuable and informative page?

Happy editing to all, TheKaplan 18:47, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Kaplan, I'm sorry I guess I'm not in touch with the hispanic underground that meets in shadowy back allys as other people. Seriously though, the biggest lesson I took away from going to the immigration protests is that you really can't assume anything about someone's views. You truly don't know the philosophy of any of those guys carrying signs without talking to them and getting some clarification on their views. If you want to be a valuable contributor to topics such as these you're going to have to get out there and familiarize yourself with the individual people, the books they read, and why groups like voz de atzlan and the mexica movement don't exactly see eye to eye. You won't get anywhere listening to the latest Rush or Dobbs rant on "our white culture" except to insulate yourself from mainstream society. That's exactly the problem with having a page about a conspiracy theory: Too many misinformed people throwing about "evidence" for their theory until their only sources are other people exactly them like who get their "evidence" from the previously mentioned people. I call it a conspiracy circle. We even have a mayor associated with the reconquista movement when he has not espoused any views supporting the theory. That's bordering on slander.

Now I agree with Rockero about a lack of a united Reconquista movement but I'll go even farther and suggest that there isn't even a united philosophy. At it's broadest scope the Reconquista "movement" could even include the Republic of Texas group and that is a group solely made up of white people.Mosquito-001 13:56, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid your patronizing little "today's lesson" entirely misses the point. "If you want to be a valuable contributor to topics such as these" as you say, you have to stop wishing away facts that you don't like, such as the existence of this philosophy. It is important to remember that we are not talking about back alleys, but rather the main streets of major cities, where the signs are quite openly displayed, and the chants chanted. Just fyi, I spent the last major immigration protest walking through the crowd and asking various people why they personally were at the protest, what the sign they were holding (no human is illegal, full rights now, etc.) meant to them, why they chose that sign in particular, and similar. I took a couple breaks to read the various flyers about the illegitimacy of the United States that I got handed. So it looks like today's lesson is actually not to assume blindly, because we all know that to make assumptions makes an ass out of you and mumptions :). Cheers, TheKaplan 20:36, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Kaplan, in response to your question, "but as a philosophy as well?": The resistance to US hegemony is not a philosophy but a popular sentiment. There may be some ideas that form undercurrents of said sentiment, such as the idea that the Southwestern United States are occupied by an invading power, an emphasis on historical and contemporary instances of racism, and the glorification of a semi-mythical past prior to colonization, for example, but they do not form a unified, coherent philosophy. Again, I ask, what are the reliable sources that present such a view? I still think what you're looking for is the article I propose above, Indigenous resistance to colonization, and I urge you to write it and let me know when you do. Thanks, --Rockero 20:52, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Should mayor V be included?

Since this article is about the use of the term, rather than the truth of what it describes, shouldn't it mention when the term is used as a nickname?TheKaplan 02:29, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so. The comment does not name the groups using the term against Mayor V and it does not go into the source of the allegations. ie. Is it nothing more than racism, a political squabble, or a mix of the two involving MeCha as a group. What does Mayor V say about the accusations? After all is said and done, the resulting article would be better suited for Mayor V's wiki entry. BTW take a look at the links on the bottom of the page.Mosquito-001 02:52, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

However, it is a notable use of the term. Doesn't that belong in an article about the uses of the term? TheKaplan 04:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

This article isn't about pushing a political agenda.Mosquito-001 12:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] dehumanizing, etc.

Even with the columnist, it is still pov pushing, and anyhow not really within the scope of this article on terminology. TheKaplan 04:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

It is very much within the scope of this article. The term has been used this way before and I have a source too. BTW you've just broken the three revert rule.Mosquito-001 12:46, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Your source does not make the claim that you put in the article, therefore you don't have a source. And I would reccomend that you look at your own last commment above. TheKaplan 16:29, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh and BTW I was never even close to 3RR, much less in violation of it. I suggest you review the policy so that you don't make unjustified threats in the future. TheKaplan 16:35, 21 August 2006 (UTC)