Talk:Rape/Archive 4

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

1 The role of control in rape and its connection to eating disorders
2 Among the most severe crimes
3 Photographs of rapes?
4 2nd degree rape in the US claim
5 Cleaning up after rapid edits
6 "may have", prevalence of rape fantasy
7 Human rights/war
8 Biblical "taking of the foreskin"
9 vandalism
10 Trickey sentence
11 Legality of rape in some Mexican states
12 Gaming Usage of Rape
13 Bias crimes against rape survivors
14 Sexual fantasy
15 added to victim blaming
16 new section
- 16.1 Bias crime against rape survivors
17 Rape as a tool of war
18 Section on the Effects of rape
19 Women are not property
20 Non-sexual uses of the term
21 Male Rape Support Link
22 I dont understand, please explain me
23 HIGHER PUISHMENT FOR RAPE!
24 Citations Needed
25 Secondary victimization and statutory rape
26 Causes of Rape, or Why Men and Women Rape or Myths about Rape
27 Rape of females by females
28 Rape in the animal kingdom?
29 New section on diversity?
- 29.1 Victim-rapist genders
- 29.2 cultural/ethnic
- 29.3 lgbtq
- 29.4 Incest and child abuse
- 29.5 Marital rape and domestic violence
- 29.6 non-gender-biased, non-double standard article on rape
- 29.7 type of rape/rape and gender
- 29.8 transgender information
- 29.9 External links/ NPOV balance
30 History of rape and the 1970's
31 Incest equals torture?
32 Trying too hard not to offend....
33 Causes of rape section
34 Female rapist and abuser profiles
35 external links notation

The role of control in rape and its connection to eating disorders

I am exploring this right now and wonder if anyone has thoughts/familiar with the definition of control and privacy. it is linked to rape, ed's and the definition of privacy as well.

Control is a key feature in most definitions of privacy in current literature. It is also a key aspect of sexual assault and the resulting psychological traumas. Many sexual assault survivors suffer from eating disorders which also center around control issues. I am interested in the concept of rape as a violation of privacy rather than as damage of property.

Privacy is not the absence of other people from one's presence but the control over the contact one has with them. (Pedersen, D. 1997).

“Selective control of access to the self” (Margulis, 2003)

“Control over or regulation of or, more narrowly, limitations on or exemption from scrutiny, surveillance, or unwanted access.” (Margulis, S. 2003)

Eating disorders are linked to control issues as this study shows: “Women with eating disorders have less objective control, showing behaviors not conducive to the optimal control of their actions. They also have lower subjective control, which makes it difficult for them to attain control, due to lack of confidence in their abilities. Moreover, they believe that control depends more on powerful others than on themselves…. Results from this study are a first attempt to understand the role of the psychological variable “behavioral personal control” as a protective or risk factor for developing sub- clinical anorexia or bulimia.” (Lugli-Rivero, Z. 2001)

"Rape is not about sex to the rapist; it has to do with control and power." http://www.coolnurse.com/rape.htm --Survivor 05:29, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This seems an interesting point. But I am afraid it sounds original research, which is not included in wikipedia. See Wikipedia:No_original_research. Please don't be discouraged; that's not my intent. -- Taku 10:08, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Taku. Actually I think it is original research which is scarry to me. I just wanted to get some feed back on the subject. I know some of the literature on eating disorders and it doesn't mention sexual assault in particular. You can find journal articles on the subject if you dig around. I did some research on privacy last year and found control to be key. I tied them together and my teacher hated it! Anyway, I am making a web page of my own on it. I just thought someone might have some input. thanks, --Survivor 04:26, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's "original research" if it has not already been published/debated elsewhere. If it has, it isn't. Why it should be scary, I don't know. It depends what the point is. If, as it seems, you are suggesting that there is a psychological link between eating disorders and sexual violations experienced by the sufferer, then find some sources that support that claim. It does not sound inherently implausible. However, at the end you seem to be suggesting something different - that there is some link between the psychology of rape victims and of perpetrators, that sounds more dodgy. Is that what you are implying? Surely in rape is it the perpretrator who is seeking control over other people's bodies, but in anorexia the sufferer is seeking control over their own bodies. The anorexic is proccupied by their own privacy, the rapist negates personal privacy. Paul B 11:41, 26 June 2005 (UTC)

I've encountered the theory not in literature about eating disorders, but in literature about rape survivors. I'll look for something I can cite and try to get it into this article in the next few days. But, the idea as I've seen has never been in terms of privacy. I've only encountered it as rape deprives the victim of any autonomy or control over their body and what happens to them, and so the survivor develops an eating disorder or begins some other form of self-injury because that's the only sort of control she feels she has left to her: "I am choosing to not eat". Anyway, to my knowledge the idea isn't original research. The Literate Engineer 05:58, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

thank you. I have thrown a few ideas together as well. Any input is welcomed. Since this has been up for discussion for a while I started the section. I apologize if it's up somewhere else and I missed it. If so please edit it in if you like. Feel free to correct any mistake's I've made. I'm not sure how much you want to include about rape as a violation of privacy. I think making the link between control in rape and control in eating disorders is more important. I just wanted people to have a place to edit in their ideas other than the talk page. Thank you for your thoughts. --Survivor 06:15, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

I have read some reasearch on this, and my impression is that the incidence of eating disorders is not higher in those who are victims of sexual assault--- however, those who are victims tend to connect their disorder to thei sexual assault. It's an interesting topic and I hope good research on it appears. BarkingDoc

Survivor, if I am correct you posit a relationship between an eating disorder sufferer's need for control over his or her identity and a rapist's need for control over his or her identity. I think this is an interesting idea. The power to induce sexual activity through legitimate means (such as charm, beauty, money, or the ability to provide sexual pleasure) is celebrated and admired in many societies as essential to masculinity, just as the power to be skinny and control one's diet is essential to femininity. Through this lens, both rape and eating disorders can be seen as pathological efforts to control one's identity and fulfill social roles for which the individual feels otherwise inadequate. --199.227.167.82 22:01, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Research on the link between eating disorders and sexual assault survivor not logged in yet.

I finally got around to looking up some research on the link between eating disorders and sexual assault, sexual abuse and rape.

Among the most severe crimes

I removed the sentence "It is considered by most societies to be among the most severe crimes." I'm no great comparative penologist, but it seems to me that under the Western definition of rape, most societies today don't care in the least about a very large percentage of rape. Furthermore, I can say with some certainty that at least Biblical Israel and common-law England didn't consider it "among the most severe crimes", based on the various punishments they prescribed for various things. I'd suspect, in fact, that very few societies prescribed the death penalty for rape, ever, where of course that was a relatively common sentence in most societies until recently (although I could be dead wrong about that). So if anyone would like to restore the sentence, I would be interested in seeing sources. —Simetrical (talk) 6 July 2005 07:36 (UTC)

I think you should put the sentence back perhaps with minor revisions. Consider for example, the massive international support of the Pakistani woman who was gang raped by court order. Clearly, the attitude towards rape is changing in countries in which at one time or another it was not even an afterthought. In societies where women's rights are strong and/or where women and men are viewed as equals, rape is likely viewed much more harshly than societies where women are not afforded the same rights. And in societies where women's rights are well-protected, rape definitely is one of the most severe crimes. So perhaps it is better to say something like, "It is considered by many societies (especially those where men and women are viewed as "equals") to be amongst the most severe crimes. In other societies, rape is not considered a severe crime because of tradition, cultural, or religious reasons."

I believe I know where you're coming from. I've had experience with certain people who don't think anything of it, and talk about it humorously. It's mainly the more insensitive macho men of my male gender who do it. It's more common in groups. This is probably why gang-rapes are so horrible and prison raping occurs frequently in groups. As I see it, some people don't seem to be bothered with rape unless it happens to them or someone they love who is 'off limits'. -User:tyciol

Yes, perhaps what you said about Israel about 3000 years ago is true. That was then, this is now. Rape is now, rightfully, a crime in many parts of the world.

I read that most rape in the US in prison rape against males - most of which goes unpunished. Its not important if its not a threat to the lawmakers or their owners - I mean bribers - I mean contributors. 4.250.33.73 11:32, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

I think this is very difficult, but that it is important that both sides be depicted in the article. I think part of the difficulty is in identifying a "society" only by its laws-- a country may have laws against a crime which is still accepted or even encouraged by the "society," such as in America with drugs. In many cultures, rape is rampant, it is prominently portrayed in entertainment (positively), and may even be considered a respectable part of social life. I do not think it diminishes the severity of rape to accurately report that many societies do not consider it a severe crime. BarkingDoc 07:34, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

It is considered a "severe crime" and has been for a while. However, most societies do not punish rape in the same sense that they consider it. One might say it is so severe, that society would rather punish the victim because they do not want to think about it (since the victim is most likely to have brought it up as a rapist is unlikely to turn themselves in). We also tend to punish rape victims because we are afraid of rape happening to ourselves or those we care for. We tend to want to believe that the victim is either lying or has done something which has marked him or her for rape. Women who are raped must have been wearing something "too sexy" and men who have been raped must have been raped in prison. I would agree that society thinks it a severe crime, just that we tend to not behave the way we would like to think we would treat a severe crime. Crimes against children are another example of this. Most people would say such crimes are the worst one can do but our legal system and the punishments given out would suggest otherwise. It's because to punish someone, you first have to fully come to terms with what they have done and most people do not have any desire to do that. - 24.7.186.18 23:02, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Photographs of rapes?

Perhaps an explanation for the picture of a broken statue lying in grass would be appropriate. Is it symbolic of sexual rape? Or an artifact from a raped city? Given its location in the article, I would assume the former, but it could well be an misplaced picture from an earlier version of the article. Picture seems appropriate either way, but not clear what its intent is. Tgroch 08:59, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

No one has offered an explanation for the relevance of that photo (which was added at 11:23 on 23 August 2005 by 84.6.18.5), so I deleted it.--Keeves 13:21, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I was just thinking, some nice rape photos would do a lot for this article.

They sure would – none of it good.Paul B 08:02, 9 Aug 2005 (UTC

I wholeheartedly concur. See discussion here. —Simetrical (talk) 16:52, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree that this would be what we in the business call a "very bad idea." -- BD2412 ^talk 23:09, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

Based on the ideal that illustrations do add to articles, are there other illustrations anyone can think of which are not depictions of rape but which might be educational or illuminative in another way? BarkingDoc 08:05, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Paul B makes an interesting suggestion, pasted below (Thanks for the link to the archive, Simertrical). Rape of the daughters of Leucippus--Nectar ^T 08:14, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Well if you are looking for a 'tasteful' image of rape, then try one of the many Sabine Women pics, Poussin maybe. Or go for Rubens' Rape of the daughters of Leucippus. Of course they all depict rape in the archaic sense of 'forced abduction'. But they are certainly more tasteful. I don't know why all articles should have illustrations. But even if they should, I can see no reason why it should be an actual explicit depiction of a rape in progress.Paul B 18:51, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Another option would be to use images such as those used on rape crisis sites. Hope inspiring and non triggering images. The clothesline project is one such visual image that would be related to the subject and not triggering to rape victims. http://www.now.org/issues/violence/cloth-t.gif

For any who don't know what that is- it's a women's / survivor's week project in which rape and sexual assault survivors of any gender paint a t shirt with their story about assault and staff hang them across campus to raise awareness.

--Survivor 01:20, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

My 19 Feb comment was in the context of a remark by "Sam Spade" that all articles should have images. On the whole, I don't think an image is actually desirable at all, unless it provides information – such as a graph or maybe a poster used in a controversial or notable campaign, or something else like that. Paul B 10:58 12 Aug 2005 (UTC)

2nd degree rape in the US claim

...fellating a man without his permission is grounds for a charge of second degree rape in the United States.

This claim is unlikely; rape is a state crime and not a federal crime, and thus every one of the 50 states would have had to enact this legislation for this statement to be true. Is it true, or only true in X number of states? Tempshill 22:39, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Cleaning up after rapid edits

As everyone can see, some major edits have just been made in an extremely short span of time, and the re-arrangement of sections within the article makes it hard to spot changes that might be opposed by consensus -- if consensus could spot within the massive red text of the diff where a content change had occurred. I'm listing here some edits which should perhaps get extra attention to make sure that they didn't mask significant changes that would be opposed by consensus:

I've taken a first pass, but I would be egotistical to think I caught everything. Can others do some checking and see how much the text has been altered, and whether it's a change that would pass consensus? -- Antaeus Feldspar 18:10, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

"may have", prevalence of rape fantasy

It is true that "may have taken place" does not communicate that "numerous allegations exist that it took place". However, removing all references to it does not communicate that either.

Likewise, simply checking rape fantasy would have shown that the incidence of rape fantasies is estimated to be around a fourth to a third of the population. Stating that millions of people have these fantasies is therefore a conservative estimate. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:06, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Why not just say it the same way its said there?

Human rights/war

Antaeus, it seems that you are a regular contributor to this growing article...would you be interested in helping me expand the human rights section I created? Would your recent addition (regarding rape and war) fit better there? Thanks! --Dpr 03:33, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, just to clarify, I didn't make any recent "additions", really; everything I've done on this article recently has been restoration of sections that were there before but removed with no explanation or insufficient reason. The most I've done is change the phrasing in a few cases to make clearer why the text was there in the first place.

As for whether the section on 'rape and war' would fit best in a section on 'rape and human rights', well, speaking more generally, I think the article in general needs a good restructuring -- one that's discussed beforehand. The recent unilateral restructuring was not, IMHO, for reasons I will go into if requested. -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:14, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Biblical "taking of the foreskin"

Another form of sexual assault, mentioned in the Bible, is the taking of an opponent's foreskin, though no mention is made of whether the enemies are living or dead. See story of David and Jonathan

The idea that the taking of foreskins for a dowry was a form sexual assault is clutching at straws. It was a method to prove the number of Philistines David had killed for his king. The task was supposed to be impossible so that David would be killed trying but instead managed to complete twice over. I am not trying to justify his actions, just point out that this reference is irrelevant to this article and seems to be trying to implicate a Biblical acceptance of sexual assault.

As to there being "no mention is made of whether the enemies are living or dead"?? what is this trying to suggest? That against their will, in a time of no anaesthetics that David could take foreskins from living grown men? Besides, the quote I have from the [NKJV] (1 Sam. 18:27) clearly states: "therefore David arose and went, he and his men, and killed two hundred men of the Philistines. And David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full count to the king, that he might become the king’s son-in-law. Then Saul gave him Michal his daughter as a wife"

As the second statement is untrue and the first, fairly irrelevant in this context without the second I have removed this section.

vandalism

Someone is vandalising the page, and I prefer not to revert any page more than once every 24 hrs, so... please have a look! Sam Spade 12:50, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Trickey sentence

"Some incorrectly believe that in Middle Eastern societies honor killings may be sanctioned. However, in some cultures rape victims are sometimes killed to restore the family's name." ANyone want to try for soemthing better? Rich Farmbrough 20:38, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Legality of rape in some Mexican states

That's right. I've been told in my historical context class that, before the 1980's, rape was completely legal in some Mexican states like Jalisco, where I'm from. He also said rape was declared illegal after a massive signature raising campaign pushed by an ITESO laws student; however, if you rape your wife, you won't be prosecuted as raping your spouse is legal. If someone has more information on that respect, I'd like to see it added to the article. Da nuke 08:29, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Gaming Usage of Rape

I think the 'gaming usage of rape' section should be deleted or moved to another page, like rape (gaming). It's out of context here and a relatively minor part. Here's the text:

Rape can additionally be used in the gaming community. To "Rape" someone is to overwhelm their skill so immensly, that they did not stand a chance at ever beating you. The term "rape" is not limited to any certain games. It is used in the RPG, RTS, and FPS communities. Although considered by some to be vulgar, the term "Rape" used in games is purly jokingly and should not intend offense but is only simply saying, "i owned you".

Thoughts? delldot | talk 22:09, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Bias crimes against rape survivors

I have been thinking about this for a couple of years. I have noticed that some of the ways in which people "pick on" rape survivors resembles how people "picked on" gay men (for example) in the past. I was wondering why one is politically incorrect (the later) and the other is just how things are. I finally got around to looking up some abstracts on hate crimes in the NCJRS Abstracts Database and found two possible categories of interest.

The first is bias crimes against people with disabilities (PTSD, Rape trauma syndrome and most confusingly and important DID). I think this one is more likely to be immediately recognizable.

The second is bias crimes that are gender based.

Just thought it was worth giving some thought to. I just found this link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femicide It has some information on gender bias crimes as well.

take care, survivor

"Last year the American Psychological Association issued the report

Hate Crimes Today:

An Age-Old Foe in Modern Dress. In the report Dr. Jack McDevitt, a criminologist, stated, "Hate crimes are message crimes. They are different from other crimes in that the offender is sending a message to members of a certain group that they are unwelcome. Preliminary research indicates that hate crimes have more serious psychological effects than non-bias motivated crimes."

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/hatecrimes.html

The Oxford English Dictionary defines a hate crime as:

Hate crime -orig. U.S., a crime, usually violent, motivated by hatred or intolerance of another social group, esp. on the basis of race or sexuality; crime of this type; freq. attrib. (occas. in pl.), designating legislation, etc., framed to address such crime.

Hate speech -orig. U.S., speech expressing hatred or intolerance of other social groups, esp. on the basis of race or sexuality; hostile verbal abuse (though the term is sometimes understood to encompass written and non-verbal forms of expression).

The Department of Justice Federal Bureau of Investigation states that "A hate crime, also known as a bias crime, is a criminal offense committed against a person, property, or society that is motivated, in whole or in part, by the offender’s bias against a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, or ethnicity/national origin." http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/hate_crime/

The operational definition of Hate crimes by the HATE-CRIME NETWORK states:

"What makes a crime a hate crime?

The offender and the victim were of different race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, and/or ethnicity/national origin..."

The invisibility of the rape survivor community and the general ignorance of the nature of rape trauma syndrome and PTSD contributes to the frequency of hate crimes and hate speech against rape survivors. The public's unfamiliarity with dissociation, dissociative identity disorder, self injury and other disabilities suffered by rape victims may be a contributing factor.

"Congress amended the Hate Crimes Statistics Act in 1994 to add disabilities as a category for which hate crimes data are to be collected. ...we know from social science research that the pervasive stigma that people apply to both mental and physical disability is expressed in many forms of discriminatory behaviors and practices, including increased risk for sexual and physical abuse. The Judge David L. Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law, a national organization representing low-income adults and children with mental disabilities, holds that such hate crimes are motivated by the perception that people with disabilities are not equal, deserving, contributing members of society, and, therefore, it is okay to attack them." TX NAACP

Regarding disability bias hate crimes: "Of the 73 victims of this type of bias, 49 were the subjects of a bias against a mental disability."

Department of Justice Federal Bureau of Investigation

In Hate Crimes and Disability in America "the findings and their implications for such issues as alternative manifestations of prejudice, underreporting of violent crimes, cross-disability support for hate crime prevention, rehabilitation counseling practice, and future research directions are discussed."

In Examining the Boundaries of Hate Crime Law: Disabilities and the "Dilemma of Difference" Grattet and Jenness find that "Persons with disabilities represent one of the largest minority groups in the United States. Recent research suggests that the multitude of ways that persons with disabilities are victimized is pronounced and increasing. However, social scientists and policymakers have largely overlooked persons with disabilities." (Grattet & Jenness 2001) Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology

"In addition to the other categories of hate crime, gender is increasingly being included as a status category in State and Federal hate crime laws. The current study explored how prosecutors view gender as a status category in hate crime law, specifically in terms of their knowledge of gender-bias violence and their willingness to charge violence against women as a hate crime... The authors recommend adopting an advocacy approach that supports the notion of violence against women as an issue of power and control while at the same time educates and encourages prosecutors and the public to adopt a hate crime perspective on violence against women. " (McPhail & DiNitto 2005) Violence Against Women: An International and Interdisciplinary Journal

Engendering Hate Crime Policy: Gender, the "Dilemma of Difference," and the Creation of Legal Subjects by Valerie Jenness "discusses what feminist legal scholars refer to as "the dilemma of difference" that is inherent in hate-crime policy in the United States...

The author addresses how the dilemma of difference has been managed in the formulation of hate-crime policy in the United States, as it simultaneously addresses the ways in which gender is both distinct from and similar to other status provisions recognized in hate-crime law, i.e., race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc." (Jenness 2003) Journal of Hate Studies

For sexual assault survivors "these negative experiences have been termed "the second rape" ( Madigan & Gamble, 1991 ), "the second assault" ( Martin & Powell, 1994 ), or "secondary victimization" ( Campbell & Raja, 1999 ; Campbell et al., 1999 ; Williams, 1984 ). Campbell et al. ( 1999 ) found that victims of non-stranger rape (e.g., acquaintance rape and date rape) were at particular risk for secondary victimization, which was related to increased psychological distress and delayed recovery." Mental Health Services for Rape Survivors

--Survivor 00:37, 16 December 2005 (UTC)survivor

I would like to start a section on this soon. Any ideas? I think the word bias will go over better than hate. They are really the same thing.

take care, --Survivor 02:02, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I went ahead and started the page. Here is the text: (i'm sure you can see it on the other page). I edited it down a bit.

"==Bias crimes against rape survivors==

The invisibility of the rape survivor community and the general ignorance regarding the nature of rape trauma syndrome and PTSD contributes to the frequency of hate crimes and hate speech against rape survivors. The public's unfamiliarity with dissociation, dissociative identity disorder, self injury and other disabilities suffered by rape victims may be a contributing factor.

--Survivor 02:09, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Sexual fantasy

This subheading is counter-intuitive and makes allusion to established authorities (law enfourcement officials). So there should be some references to substantiate these claims.--Esprit15d 18:34, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree we need references here. I was talking about this topic with some people and realized that I had nothing solid (no offense wiki) to back my statements with, which I based off this section. So please author, leave a reference. DenimForce 15:23, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

added to victim blaming

Another theory entails the need to protect one's own sense of invulnerability. This inspires people to believe that rape only happens to those who deserve or provoke the assault (Schneider et. al., 1994). This is a way of feeling safer. If the potential victim avoids the behaviours of the past victims then they themselves will remain safe and feel less vulnerable. If anyone wants to work on the wording of this feel free. I'm more of an organizer than a writer.

--Survivor 01:57, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

new section

--Survivor had just added the following section, which to me seems to be undigested chunks of quotation barely held together as a coherent argument. It is also full of sheer assertion. What is being claimed here, that rape can be defined as a "hate crime"? That seems highly contentious to say the least. There seems to be some argument that "hate speech" against rape survivors is caused by lack of knowledge of PTSD, but it is not clear to me what this "hate speech" is and whether this rather thanb rape is being characterised as a hate crime in thses paragraphs. Altogether, some clarity is needed. Paul B 02:23, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Paul, I wasn't going to add it yet but I thought I may as well. No one responded to my talk post which was up for a while so I went ahead. Any discussion on this is welcome. I am not much of a writer so tend to look for quotes. If anyone thinks they have a good way to put it together (if you agree with the idea) that would be much appreciated. I think bias crime sounds better in this situation as it creates less of a 'dramatic' effect.

You are probably right in that I wasn't clear enough. what I intended to say is that harrassing rape survivors after they have been raped -and are suffering from disabilities that are very hard to understand- qualifies as a hate crime. It is a bias crime against a community of people who are suffering from a disability (rape trauma syndrome- ptsd, eating disorders, dissociatieve disorder - you act like a 7 year old when something upsets you: it gets alot of negative attention, trust me.) I will ask someone to help me write it up from another board.

I am not saying rape is a hate crime but the discrimination I personally faced when I had severe ptsd was definitely abusive. I know alot of other people who have faced a very similar fate. The "second rape" is a well known term which describes this. I am just exploring whether we as a community of survivors count enough to be protected under this law.

Hate speech and acts of hate are detailed here: http://www.ibiblio.org/rcip//testimonials.html http://www.justicewomen.com/cj_second_rape.html http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Abuse/lisk/mystory.htm

I did want a discussion on this as long as everyone is at least fairly nice. Keep in mind that this topic includes both male and female victims.

take care all,

--12.202.60.227 06:44, 21 December 2005 (UTC)survivor

I am hoping this is a better explanation:

Discriminating against someone who is suffering from a disability (such as a mental illness) has been considered a bias crime since 1994. Rape in and of itself is not a bias crime but mistreating people because they are suffering from rape trauma syndrome is. People do not understand much about RTS (rape trauma syndrome) or know what its symptoms are. It is a difficult thing to understand if you have never heard of it. Dissociative Identity Disorder in particular is usually not spoken about openly. That does not mean people you know aren't suffering from it. PTSD is a more commonly recognized aspect of rape trauma syndrome. Other disorders associated with sexual assault are OCD, Eating disorders and Self Injury. According to The National College Women Sexual Victimization Study between 1 in 4 and 1 in 5 college women experienced completed or attempted rape during their college years (Fisher, Cullen, and Turner 2000). Please learn about rape trauma syndrome and it's symptoms before you say or do something to hurt those suffering from it.

--Survivor 02:22, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

I am still hoping to add a section that addresses secondary victimization at least. Please let me know what information you think it should include.

thanks, --Survivor 02:22, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Bias crime against rape survivors

Rape as a tool of war

It seems appropriate to cover the use of rape as a tool of war. Examples include the Darfur conflict and the Second Congo War; the latter link even has a paragraph on this phenomenon from which relevant material might be drawn directly. If nobody else volunteers to write something up, I'll go ahead and do it (assuming others feel it has a place in this article). Note that a very brief stub currently exists for Systematic rape, though I'm not sure why it might belong under that header rather than as a section in this main article.ERobson 04:43, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Section on the Effects of rape

I think adding a sub section on secondary victimization to this section is appropriate. It is part of the aftermath of rape. I hope everyone is okay with this. I will start it but feel free to add constructive edits.

--Survivor 02:31, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

so far:

Secondary Victimization -

Secondary victimization is the re-traumatization of the sexual assault, abuse or rape victim. It is an indirect result of assault which occurs through the responses of individuals and institutions to the victim. The types of secondary victimization include victim blaming, inappropriate behavior or language by medical personel and by other organizations with access to the victim post assault. (Campbell et. al., 1999)

http://www.nvaw.org/research/services.shtml

http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32371#6

Women are not property

The concept of rape victims being "damaged property" has a historical basis dating back to when women were literally owned by a member of their family.

"The origin of rape laws can be traced to the once-widespread belief that women were the property of men. A female was considered first the property of her father. Because her virginity was valued as her principal asset, rape was considered a theft. Once a woman was married, she belonged to her husband. Rape then was treated as a crime against the husband's exclusive sexual rights to her. Because marriage gave these rights to the husband, legally, it was not possible for him to rape his own wife." Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia

This is what is known as an underlying cultural assumption. They are incredibly difficult to even notice much less change. One way in which society can circumnavigate this 'subconscious' idea is to begin looking at sexual assault as a violation of rights rather than a violation of the flesh. It is a violation of the body but the person inside the body is more important. The physical wounds will heal but the psychological ones will take a lifetime. Women and men both have the right to control who has access to them and their bodies. Privacy is one of the rights of the rape victim which have been violated.

"Though a rape victim may not sustain substantial physical tissue damage, rapists may inflict significant psychological trauma by asserting uninvited domination, control, and power over the unwilling other"(Schneider et. al., 1994)

Women are not property

"A fundamental categorization of crime is based on criminological theory and is commonly used to detect patterns in the crime rate. This classification divides crime broadly into two categories: crimes against the person and crimes against property. Crimes against the person are predatory in nature: the offender intends, threatens, or commits physical harm against the victim. Such crimes include homicide, rape, and armed robbery. Crimes against property involve no physical threat to the victim and include arson, burglary, larceny, and motor-vehicle theft." Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia

References:

Sedney, Mary Anne, "rape (crime)." Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia. Scholastic Library Publishing, 2006 <http://gme.grolier.com> (January 6, 2006).

Vito, Gennaro F., "crime." Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia. Scholastic Library Publishing, 2006 <http://gme.grolier.com> (January 6, 2006).

survivor

Ummm... survivor, what does this have to do with the article? That part isn't very clear from what you've written. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:59, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure if this would come under the context of history or victim blame. It's just an idea I am working on. It's not ready for the page yet. I just wanted to give you all food for thought. --12.211.21.87 09:03, 7 February 2006 (UTC)survivor

Non-sexual uses of the term

For petesake, does every Wikipedia article have include ephemeral internet culture slang usages of the subject? No one is going to come to this article thinking "I wonder want bad2dbone meant when he said he 'got raped' on Fark's Photoshop challenge." All words have metaphorical usages as well as literal usages; that doesn't need to be spelled out just to get "pwned" jammed into another article. --Tysto 06:44, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Male Rape Support Link

Do we really need this link to be the only one disscussing support for male rape survivors:

http://www.alltheseyears.net/male.htm

It looks like it was designed as an after thought by a female rape survivor support site. Even the discussion on that page is from the point of view of a female trying to understand male rape. Wouldn't it be better to provide a link to a page created by male rape survivors or a site that directly deals with male rape? --24.130.125.164 09:46, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

http://www.malesurvivor.org/ tho mainly deals with chldhood abuse

http://www.aest.org.uk/survivors/male/myths_about_male_rape.htm would be another choice.

81.102.25.102 20:54, 26 January 2006 (UTC) steve

I dont understand, please explain me

Hello alls. I would like to put forward a few questions and observations that someone with more expertise than me on the subject could probably answer and clarify.

I do not completely understand why laws against rape are in effect.

I am confused with the concept of rape. Why is it, legislature tends to punish rape much more severely than for example battery or assault? I mean, when an individual rapes another, I would assume that this means the other individual is threatened with a weapon or severely beaten. This constitutes an assault. That is already covered by the law. Then, there's the possibility of for example using drugs to render a victim unconcious. That again is an assault, which is covered by the law. The act of penetration could be perceived as an assault as well.

There does seem to be a number of problems with the regular rape law, for example, a relatively high percentage of false reports about rape. So, those would be incidences where either there was no sexual activity at all, or it was perceived as consensual by either side.

This means: the legislation about rape be used to criminalize consensual sex? Is rape legislation thus a way of, probably, religious anti-sex fundamentalists to curb sexual development and enjoyment of consenting adults, in the context of a one night stand?

Not to provide reason for a misunderstanding: Sex is beautiful and should be enjoyed by everyone. No reason for rape laws. Sometimes people coerce each other into doing things that they later regret. Well, a lesson learned, no reason for rape laws. Sometimes one individual uses violence for coercing another - that is already an offense, no reason for rape laws. Sometimes people use drugs to render another individual inconscious - also an offense, no reason for rape laws. So what exactly does rape legislation cover?

Rape laws are age old, and even found in the bible. But interestingly, the bible does specifically not seem to differ between consensual sex or effectively what we call rape. One of the rape laws goes something like this: When a man "takes" another man's woman in the field, where nobody could hear her screams, only he should be put to death, in the city on the other hand, where people could hear her screams, both should be killed. (Deut 22:22 ff) We know all how "highly" the bible thinks of sex.

So the rape laws in the bible have nothing to do with actual, forced sex, but merely to punish extramarital relations. Is rape only an anti sex law? Why should something that is supposedly wonderful for both parties be criminalized so heavily?

My somewhat dubious preliminary conclusion is that rape laws are superfluous, and in fact can only apply to situations where consenting sex is touched. Meaning, rape laws' only purpose is to criminalize consensual sex. Would that be correct? Dabljuh 21:55, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Are you trying to be provocative? If so, it's very tiresome. Deuteronomy, by the way, states that if extramariatal sex occurs away from habitation, then the woman will not be pushished because there is no way of knowing if it was consensual or rape. If it occurs in an occupied area it will be assumed to be consensual if the woman is not heard crying for help. Paul B 00:56, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

That was probably just the dumbest post ever. Dabljuh 01:39, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Meanwhile, I have in fact found something that pretty much vocalizes some of my thoughts: [1] Dabljuh 02:34, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok. Rape laws are indeed crap, mostly. There's four levels of rape: sex while lack of consent, sex despite verbal rejection, sex under threat of force, and sex by force.

Stupid-ass feminists have managed that the laws in most places goes into the direction that rape is sex without consent. You can't smell consent. Maybe the next day you decide it wasn't so good an idea and then what appeared to be consenting sex turns into rape. You cannot prove consent, or its lack, either. All of these make sure that the victim has to undergo a humiliating procedure in a process to explain how exactly she did not consent.

Sex despite verbal rejection is rather a tricky one. "No means no". But for some guys, a no is just an invitation for more coercion. Why would anyone reject some wholesome family fun? It turns the whole process of rape into an abstract rejection, and then there's the langauge barrier. And then there is of course the burden of proof.

Sex under the threat of force is already quite clearly rape. One of the questions I would raise is, is it rape if someone makes a vague threat, without a weapon? I would say yes, but then there's still the burden of proof. Ultimately you can have a hard time to prove a threat, unless you happen to be videotaped or something.

Sex by force is the clearest of all examples, it is the intuitive definition of rape. And it can be easily proven: Bruises, black eyes, lost teeth etc. This means an attacker beats a victim into submission, or uses drugs to render it unconcious. Other examples are tying someone up, just the whole "violent force shebang".

I would argue for a) beating feminists with a stick b) make sure that everybody understands, rape is only rape if force is used or clearly threatened. If someone does merely does not consent, but acquiescences, is not threatened, this is clearly not rape. This should be clear to everyone - Because otherwise, all sex that not both partners have signed a consent form is possibly a rape. And even then, the consent could be achieved by deception or coercion - but that could make the deception a liable offense.

The trickiest question is that of "no means no". The problem I have with this is that it conveys the illusion that this would actually work. Men tend not to listen so much to words, but rather to, well, the bodies. The notion that "Her mouth says no her hips say yes" is sadly not just a rapist excuse at all, humans in general often do one thing and say another, because they're not properly wired. Physical resistance on the other hand, requires action from the body. A flying elbow to the chin, a quick knee into the happysacks, now every motherfucker on the planet is going to understand that. Ultimately the notion that saying "no" would be enough to ensure criminal prosecution teaches women that every problem on the planet can be solved by talking: This is not the case. When we, as men or women, tell women or girls that "no means dick but everybody understands a flying elbow", women can be more secure, sane, and confident in their daily lives, because they do not base their sexual integrity on a false assumption. Because they realize a "no" is not going to stop a real rapist.

The threat of force, especially with a weapon, can of course be safely outlawed. What's necessary is that weapons are available to civilians, so that women too can be armed (and trained in their usage). Same goes of course for actual use of force. Women are physically weaker than men, but when everybody is armed, with handguns, swords, plasma throwers, whatever, this difference becomes negligeble. Any offender, armed or not, would have to face the possibility of physical destruction if his potential victim was potentially armed. Dabljuh 08:34, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Just so we understand your point there friend... If myself and say two of my friends were to hold you down and rape you, not using weapons or threats of violence, just mass of bodies holding you down, we should be charged with nothing? I mean you may have said no, but after all a man answers his body, right? Since no actual violence was used, no threats and no weapons, we didnt do anything wrong right? Especially if you were slightly drunk and we took that to be 'aquiescance' if not consent... I agree with a previous poster: yours is pretty much the dumbest post I have ever seen on Wikipedia.

In response to some of the discussions here I would like to add the following: As far as I understand it, one of the reason that rape legislation exists in addition to assault and battery is that rape itself can have a severe and lasting negative psychological impact on the victim. Also, there are risks beyond physical damage when you are raped. The act of rape makes the spread of disease and impregnation possible. In cases of rape without consent, it seems to me that you are concerned with having your individual liberties being violated by vindictive lovers. That is, you are afraid that rape legislation opens up the possibility of falsely being convicted. You might be interested to know that convictions of this sort (though they create many popular scandals on TV) are difficult to attain and are rarely a viable threat. Also, in some cases they can be proved. In which case, it seems to me that it is beneficial to our society that if it can be demonstrated that a person was coerced into a sexual act with the mere threat of potential violence, the perpetrator should be punished. Also, "no" should mean "no." There is a difference between a playful no and a serious one. Just because there are many issues that can't simply be resolved with discussion doesn't mean that we should strip language of any and all effectiveness.

Well, I believe the more violent the rape, if the victim was beaten before hand, is charged with more years. As in most societies it is considered worse to be sexually violated than severely beaten as the psychological affects of the first are believed to be worse.

HIGHER PUISHMENT FOR RAPE!

The penitly for rape shonld be highing, because it is not fear for the woman to suffer for the rest of her life and the man only gets 8 years of in prisenment. I belive men who rape should be Beating, rape ,burn and tortured. then the amount of rape wounld decrease. There is no need to rape a woman. Men should learn how to controll them selves and not make thier dick's rule over there heads. 208.131.186.2 (talk • contribs) 23:26, 21 January 2006 (Signature added Dabljuh 00:06, 24 January 2006 (UTC))

I'm sorry, you have mistaken this for a blog, or a discussion board. It is not. This is the talk page for the Wikipedia article about rape, where we discuss how to make that article better. Your post has nothing to do with the article, since it's all personal opinion. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:47, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

"Beating, rape ,burn and tortured" And what would this accomplish? Obviously you don't think this is a deterrent. As you say punishment. Which I find more barbaric than the actual crime as it is committed by the state. I take it you're talking about democratic first world countries, such as America, in the present time. And you're closing statement shows a lot of ignorance. It's a very small minority of male rapists who rape just because they are horny and cant be bothered to ask a woman to dinner or whatever you seem to think it is. I strongly suggest you actually read the article.

We don't beat, rape, burn or torture murders. Dabljuh, it sounds to me like your victimization has turned you into a sexual sadist. That is EXACTLY what sexual sadists do: they tie-up, beat, rape, burn and torture willing participants who remind them of their perp. You can find a legal outlet for your emotions by practicing "bdsm." A substantial percentage of people involved in bdsm are survivors of rape or incest. Some need to inflict on others what was done to them, some became imprinted by their first sexual encounter, and crave this kind of stimulation. Survivors at first have a hard time learning to channel their anger this way, because they sometimes develop a prudish attitude toward sex, blaming all unusual sexual desire on their vitimization, or they feel they will be as bad as their perp if they behave like their perp. These survivors fail to recognzie the difference between consensual activity between adults, and non-sensual activity between an adult and a minor. They sometimes feel compelled to lump the two together. Some survivors think they are incapable redirecting the anger they have toward their perp to someone else. But they can learn to do this. Finally, some victims fear what they will do if given the chance to release their anger. They think they might have a flashback and kill someone. This is a good reason to have a friend from the scene with you to make sure things don't get out of hand. Anonymous

Citations Needed

The Rapist warning signs needs a citiation, even given it's preamble. The preamble basically states, "a rapist may or may not exhibit any of the following character traits. A non-rapist may also exhibit the same traits," which leads me to question the usefulness of this section. 24.86.197.132 10:28, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I would have to disagree on your latter point. Warning signs are useful, and they do not become less useful just because they are accompanied by cautions that they are not immune to false negatives or false positives. Readers need to know that the absence of these warning signs does not mean a person is not a rapist; nor does the presence of these warning signs mean that they are. You might think that people would obviously take such cautions for granted, but a surprising amount of people don't even think about things such as "is this a list of warning signs, or of absolute proof signs?" -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:48, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'll agree with you on the usefulness of a warning signs section, but I feel that the section is useless in it current state. While I feel that some of the warning signs are certainly valid, others I disagree with, and since [this section was added without any citations] I feel that it should be rewritten with citations. 128.189.198.37 19:56, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed; citations would definitely improve the section. -- Antaeus Feldspar 20:54, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Secondary victimization and statutory rape

Edited POV phrasing that suggested that many minors are *only* victimized by law enforcement, and put the word perpatrator in scare quotes. Whether or not some is the victim of a crime depends upon the statute, not some subjective feeling of victimization. When an adult has sex with a child, the child is a victim of a crime, whether they know it or not. And the adult who did it is the perpatrator, period. Benami 20:51, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Ya, that was a bit of a cock-up wasn't it. I was aiming for a meaning along the lines of "by the very definition of statutory rape the perpetrator is a loved one (usually a bf or gf)" but couldn't quite find a good way to put it in there. I was hoping someone would come along, see the meaning, and rephrase it. Reads better now, but still doesn't convey the meaning I was going for. Ie it really doesn't explain why the victim didn't feel like a victim from the get-go. --Pascal666 23:06, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Causes of Rape, or Why Men and Women Rape or Myths about Rape

This article shows the effects of rape but has no section on the causes of rape. However there is much specious speculation and POV throughout this article positing such causes. I hope to see a solid section in this article that shows the ongoing research on the causes for Rape by both men and women. Susan Brownmiller's ideas are undergoing serious challenge and this needs to be studied here. Here is Anthropologist Micheal Ghiglieries take from The Dark Side of Man: Tracing the Origins of Male Violence:

Because rape is such a hideous crime, it is hard for many of us to understand, even when the facts are clear. Many of the ideas, ideals, and paradigms we hold about human nature become stumbling blocks to understanding rape when the very idea of sexually motivated rape clashes with those ideas. The problem is that many of us still prefer our own ideas over the facts. Some feminists, for example, still argue that men rape to dominate and control women because society trains men to be superior to women and to dominate them. If this were true we would see three trends: First, men would rape older, more powerful women more often. (They do not.) Second, rapists would come in all ages and from all walks of life. (They do not.) Third when socialization changes, rape should change. (It does not.) For example, some feminists' ultimate solutions to rape is to create sexual equality in earnings, education, employement, and prestige so as to minimize male domination of politics and economics and to equalize power. But, in twenty-six large American cities that have made progress toward sexual equality in their police departments, researchers found the highest, not the lowest, rates of rape.

This much is clear: the only factor common to all rapes is sexual assault. Indeed in Exploring Human Sexuality, psyhologists Kathryn Kelley and Donne Byrne define rape as 'violent sexual crime in which threat, force, and intimidation are used to coerce and unwilling victim to engage in sex related acts'. Moreover to blame 'aggression' instead of sexual impulses for rape, notes pyschologist Herant Katchadourian in his Fundamentals of Human Sexuality, presents three problems.

"First, to claim that coitus can be a nonsexual act undermines the concept of sex as objectively definable. Second, it has us pretend that everything about sex is wonderful when in reality sex cann be awful, and rape is a good example of it. Third, it does not allow a context for experiences like date rape or acquaintence rape, which may or may not be violent, but certainly center around the issue of sexuality."

Even more enlightening is how women vicims themselves define rape. Pauline Bart and K. L. Scheppe interviewed victims to determine their opinions. What they found should come as no surprise: 'Although all women studied were victims of acts legally defined as rape, those who were subjected to non-phallic acts were likely to have labeled themselves as having ESCAPED rape'. In short, no penis, no rape. According to this study, power and control are irrelevant to women victims in DEFINING rape.

He goes on to pose possible causes for rape by stating that men almost exclusively rape women who are the most fertile and desireable as wives. and that, most rapists are socioeconomic losers, or at least not yet winners, with inferior abilities to attract desirable women through honest courtship.

I hope to see a section on Causes of Rape here that includes all known research on this topic. Rape has long been used as political football and this article is full of feminist POV on why men rape women. There is also no discussion here on why women rape men and young men, often their own children or their students, much less on why women rape women. It is only by knowing and genuinely facing such causes that we will eliminate rape forever. To me, this topic deserves objective NPOV study, here in this article, based upon the known facts and statistics about both male and female rape. Please comment and please suggest places I\we can include this with no baseless edit wars.

Anacapa 02:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi there. I agree there are different types of rape. The reason alot of sexual assault information is directed towards women is that most of the victims are women.

National Center for Injury Prevention and Control

http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/nfirates2001.html

Sexual Assault injuries (nonfatal) in the US per 100,000 people totaled 73,834 for 2003. Of these 67,085 were women and 6,749 were men. 10,259 for every 100,000 women died as a result of violence in the US in 2002 while 39,418 males died as a result of general violence in 2002.

I don't think there is a section here for lgbtq sexual assault either. Male victims are indeed under represented in the survivor community. That is not because activists don't like them. On the contrary male survivors are gaining visibility recently. I think it would be great to put male survivor information on this page.

What i don't think is needed is seperate sections for male and female under each section. Is there research stating that men rape for different reasons than women? Maybe what you need is a section for male survivors and information on female perps within that section. On my site i have under lgbtq: male-male, male-female, female-female and female- male. I have a separate section for male survivors bc they are not necesarily gay. What I don't agree with is accentuating female perps under motivations. I am not sure there is enough research yet on motivations. Maybe starting with the general issues and therapy needs of the male survivor community and of lesbian domestic violence would be a good start.

take care, --Survivor 06:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

To survivor. I mean in no way to diminish male-female rape. However, I insist that we face the fact that women do commit horrible sexual crimes too against both men and women often against their own children (see incest Article). There is a huge double standard here, gross underreporting of and very little common knowledge about female perps. This needs to change. The idea of 'mother' or 'woman' as saint is a myth that must be challenged with fact so victims of females can be heard here too. Anacapa 02:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Rape of females by females

I added preliminary research on this topic. Could someone else flesh it out? I also hope we include possible causes for female on female and female on male rape in a Cause of Rape section. Finally, is there a legal definition of female on female rape? I have never seen a prosecution of this particulary loathsome crime in the news. I suggest a glance at the external links for more background here to gain a better understanding of what is indeed the 'last secret' about rape. Anacapa 03:01, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I added a bit on the subject as i have alot of research on my site. here are some resources you might consider using:

Woman on Woman sexual assault.

http://www.sfwar.org/node/view/33

"Did you know that....

women can be raped by other women? women can sexually assault other women? violence occurs in 1 out of 4 lesbian relationships? lesbian domestic violence often includes lesbian rape? lesbian rape is almost always unreported?"

The Network/La Red

http://www.thenetworklared.org/

Ending abuse in lesbian, bisexual women's and transgender communities. "The Network/La Red was formed to address battering in lesbian, bisexual women's, and transgender communities. Through a) the formation of a community-based multi-cultural organization in which battered/formerly battered lesbians, bisexual women, and transgender folks hold leadership roles; b) community organizing, education, and the provision of support services; and c) coalition-building with other movements for social change and social justice, we seek to create a culture in which domination, coercion, and control are no longer accepted and operative social norms."

Woman to woman violence from Our Bodies Ourselves

http://www.ourbodiesourselves.org/book/companion.asp?id=8&compID=95

"The experiences of women who are sexually assaulted by other women are not widely enough known or discussed. This silence makes it harder for those of us who are sexually assaulted by women to get appropriate health care and support. Service providers, media, educators, and assault survivors can help end this silence by talking more openly about this abuse."

Female - on - Female Abuse Links

http://mdsasupport.homestead.com/links.html

"Our members are a diverse group of women of varying ages, backgrounds, locations, occupations, sexual orientations, family status, etc. What all our members have in common is the experience of having been sexually abused by their mother and the courage and fortitude to come share with and support other women on the same healing journey." --12.211.21.87 08:49, 7 February 2006 (UTC)survivor

okay, i added this to female profiles

According to Network LaRed woman on woman rape and domestic violence abusers exhibit certain behavior.

Your partner tries to control where you go and what you do.
You don't see family in order to avoid jealous behavior
Screaming things, throwing, violating privacy, stealing or breaking things.
Overly co-dependant in terms of money. Wants you to be dependant or vice versa.
Doesn't allow you access to medications or health care.
Uses alcohol or drug abuse as an excuse.
Uses guilt to force you into decisions.
Humiliates you.
Does not respect your boundaries.

--Survivor 03:39, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Survivor this contents seems good to me and is much needed. However, please put anything about domestic violence on the DV article and anything about sexual abuse that is not rape on the sexual abuse(?) article so that this one doesn't get too confusing. Also I see some repetition here. Could you choose one place where the above belongs and delete it elsewhere? Anacapa 05:01, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I seem to remember that lesbians are not seen in the law. So if a woman raped another woman it would be sexual assault and not rape. I think it's somthing along the lines of "Penetration of the vagina or anus by the penis" or somthing, and everything else is sexual assault.

Rape in the animal kingdom?

Does it exist? 83.5.189.10 20:05, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it does. Can't name any particular species, but I'd guess it's common on species where the male is dominant over the female. ☢ Ҡieff⌇↯ 20:22, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Ya, I remember seeing some show on Discovery channel about spiders. The male would sneak up on the female and hold her with his front legs. He would then use his pedipalps (I think that's what they're called) to kind of scoop his sperm into the female. Then the male had to run quickly away, so as not to be eaten by the female. --Dimblethum 20:30, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. One of the basic elements of rape is knowledge that the raped person is not consenting (or recklessness as to whether he/she is consenting). There is no evidence that any animal other than homo sapiens can understand the concept of consent. Mark ^{your words} 20:36, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I would think running away, biting the suitor, etc., is a pretty good indication that consent is not given. StuRat 00:27, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh really! deeptrivia (talk) 21:28, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

It's not really clear that that's rape though, it's kind of a human social construct. Not, of course, to take away from how serious it is, but it's still a construct.

Rape is a human social construct- that's exactly the point. Asking whether bulls rape cows is as nonsensical as asking whether boy cabbages rape girl cabbages. Mark ^{your words} 20:53, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Note: The above comment is factually incorrect (and even offensive). deeptrivia (talk) 21:25, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

PS: See Sociobiological theories of rape. deeptrivia (talk) 21:27, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Certainly not the former; if the latter exists in your mind, that's your problem. Mark ^{your words} 21:59, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure "rape" is a particularly good word for it, but male dolphins will "herd" females, following and surrounding them, and forcing them to mate. This herding can last from minutes to months. Also, dolphins tend to be given other behavior that could be termed lecherous [2] Raul654 20:48, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

But hey, nobody talked with the female dolphins, so they must be enjoying it for all we know! ... Now, honestly, this get filed as rape in my book. Also, to quote Mark, "There is no evidence that any animal other than homo sapiens can understand the concept of consent." Oh really? What the hell are mating rituals then, when the female doesn't let a "unworthy" male to mate? That's consent, isn't it? And if the male uses force to copulate with her anyway, wouldn't it be rape? ☢ Ҡieff⌇↯ 21:48, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

No no no. A male spider has no concept of a female spider existing as a conscious entity. This is ludicrous anthropomorphism. Mark ^{your words} 21:59, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Anthropomorphism anyone? Rape is a social construct, it isn't simply sexual relations without consent. The concept of consent is a human one, and laws, rules and human norms of rape vary by place and time. Animal social constructs are likewise different, if they exist at all.

There are clearly cases when the female refuses any attempt from certain males to copulate. If you say there's no consent in there, then you're being a bit speciesist. Now, if by "rape" the questioner asked about all this social aspect, with norms and etc, then there's no evidence of such thing as rape in the animal kingdom. But if "rape" is just unconsensual (sp?), forced sex, then there's no reason to think there isn't. ☢ Ҡieff⌇↯ 22:12, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

It's not remotely 'speciesist'. If there were a Mr Spider which had the intellectual capacity to understand that Miss Spider was a) a conscious organism and b) one which didn't want to be shagged, then he would be capable of rape regardless of his species. But there isn't. Spiders, blue whales and broccoli are all equally incapable of rape, murder or love. Mark ^{your words} 22:26, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

But we know that "Ms. Spider" chooses a male she wishes to have sex with based on several things. If the male, even being rejected, forcefully has sex with the female anyway, that'd be rape. ☢ Ҡieff⌇↯ 22:34, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure on what basis you would call it that. Which definition of rape would you use? One of the hundreds of legal definitions? One of the thousands of social constructs? How would you demonstrate that there was any analagous understanding of that in spiders? 67.40.249.122 22:41, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, Miss (she is known to be unmarried) Spider does not 'choose' in the sense of conscious human choice- she responds to stimuli. Secondly, rape (in every human society of which I know) involves a mental element (mens rea) in addition to the physical element (actus reus). Mr S is incapable of that mental element. Mark ^{your words} 22:48, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, spiders are a lot different than, say chimps, lions or other mammals. This whole spider thing is a bit pointless. I don't really believe arachnids or insects have any form of "will", but lots of other animals do, and this was my initial point. This spider thing carried away the argument to a unproductive area. ☢ Ҡieff⌇↯ 23:05, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't think I would say that there is no such thing as forced sex in the animal kingdom, but the problem is applying the human social construct of rape to that.

Indeed, but considering the depth of the questions on the first place, I think you're assuming a bit too much. (Also, please sign all instances of your messages, even on different parts of the same discussion) ☢ Ҡieff⌇↯ 22:34, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry - not sure what you mean - what am I assuming? Do you mean that I am assuming that there is no animal construct that is analagous? 67.40.249.122 22:38, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Rape happens when "the victim is forced into sexual activity, in particular sexual penetration, against his or her will." This can apply in the context of most higher animals (not restricted to mammals). The West does (finally) understand life much better today compared to Biblical times, and no one that matters equates cows and bulls to cabbages any more. deeptrivia (talk) 23:00, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Where did you get that definition? It doesn't matter, it's as good as any other, but the choice to use it is a cultural choice - you would choose differently if you were a rural afghan, or a medieval cleric, or, indeed, a member of the religious right. Your taking a definition that has current legitimacy within your cultural context, and applying it, not only to all people, cultures and times, but species as well? I think that's a stretch too far. 67.40.249.122 23:04, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Not really, no. "Forced into sexual activity against his or her will" is pretty straightfoward. If you assume the creature in question has any form of will, then that definiton of "rape" is applicable. Also, by your logic, rape doesn't really apply in any case because some cultures find it acceptable? ☢ Ҡieff⌇↯ 23:10, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

That's your definition. Not all cultures / times have or do agree with you. I'm not going to argue that you're wrong, just that there is not only one definition. For example, whether someone can rape their wife is a question that I suspect that I know your reply to, but different laws and cultures give different answers. I know for a fact that spiders don't have the same concept of marriage as people, so what do we do with that? It just doesn't apply to animals. There may well be something else, but it's not the same thing as rape in humans, even if we could ever agree on exactly what rape in humans is. 67.40.249.122 23:18, 4 February 2006 (UTC)]

So, you're basically saying animals don't choose, they don't have preferences or don't have any will? ☢ Ҡieff⌇↯ 23:48, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I think they appear to make choices, and have preferences, I assume they have will, but all of those are suppositions on my part, I can't prove it, and all are irrelevant to the question of whether they have a cultural concept equivalent to rape. It's quite possible that an animal may be forced to have sex against their will, it doesn't make it rape. One animal may kill another, it doesn't mean they consider it murder, one may force another into extinction, it probably isn't genocide. 67.40.249.122 00:10, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Cats always sound to me as if they're being raped. That awful noise they make hardly seems to be a response to pleasure. (I guess that's where the word "caterwauling" comes from.) JackofOz 23:15, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

That last comment turns out to be true. Caterwaul is from Middle English caterwawen, "to cry as a cat," either from Medieval Dutch kater, "tomcat" + Dutch wauwelen, "to tattle," or for catawail, from cat-wail, "to wail like a cat.". Well, there you go. JackofOz 23:54, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Why do cats cry when having sex? Consider this - the cat's penis has spines on it. Sex is painful for cats. Grutness...wha? 00:09, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

You're right - sex just isn't the same thing for cats as it is for people. The concept of rape predisposes a whole load of values that we just have no idea whether animals have. It could well be (and I speculate here) that no female cat ever wants to have sex. That sort of biology, along with very different social norms, would make it hard for cats to have the same view of sex, or rape, as people. 67.40.249.122 00:33, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Many animals are monogamous. I don't see any cultural relativism in this definition..it's a pretty simple one. deeptrivia (talk) 23:56, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

It's a simplistic one. Rape, to the extent that it matters, is all in the minds of the rapist and the victim. Other animals just don't have the right kind of minds. Mark ^{your words} 00:41, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

The fact that some animals display a behavioral trait doesn't allow us to deduce anything about their values, if indeed they have values. The fact that a creature is monogamous doesn't tell us anything about their cultural concept of rape, if any. 67.40.249.122 00:07, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

This is very mysterious. What was Mother Nature thinking when she made the very thing that is essential for the survival of the species so painful (and presumably, from the female cat's perspective, undesirable)? What purpose does painful sex serve? If it isn't pleasure that guarantees the continuation of the species, what is it? Cats are known for their ability to fight to get away from unwanted attention, so why do the females submit to this? Or is the tom stronger and more powerful, meaning he gets his way? Is sexual pleasure a human concept that doesn't necessarily apply in the rest of the animal kingdom? JackofOz 01:29, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Female cats don't have menstrual periods, so the injury from the spike is used to signal their bodies to release eggs, which then combine with the sperm to make kittens. The female's urge to mate overcomes any memory of the pain from the last mating, which is likely from a year ago. Pain and sex are frequently associated, even in humans, just ask the Marquis de Sade. StuRat 02:25, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Also, I was under the impression that most of the pain comes when the tom withdraws and his spines rake the queen's vagina, not while they're going at it. IANAcat expert though. --Malthusian (talk) 09:23, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Everyone should take a look at rape. That article defines rape as:

"Rape is a crime where the victim is forced into sexual activity, in particular sexual penetration, against his or her will."

If A forces B into sexual activity, and B is struggling to get away, that's rape. It doesn't matter whether A or B are humans or animals. Bowlhover 01:34, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm not sure what relevance a wikipedia article has to cats, and I'm not sure what 'mother nature' was 'thinking', but I am not convinced that the assumption that because sex is pleasurable to (most) humans, that means it is to animals. There are all kinds of other ways to set reproduction up. Yes, I think sexual pleasure does not necesarily apply to the rest of the animal kingdom. I also think that the concept of 'crime' doesn't apply to animals. For that matter, the concept of 'him' and 'her' doesn't apply to all animals. 67.40.249.122 01:45, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

What about "pain", "pleasure", "affection" and "fear"? Just askin'... ☢ Ҡieff⌇↯ 02:30, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't know. You don't either. 67.40.249.122 02:32, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

They do feel pain, pleasure, affection and fear, pretty much the same way we do. You're being speciesist. Why you say you don't know? Because you're not, say, a cat? That's a really stupid excuse. ☢ Ҡieff⌇↯ 02:47, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

How do you know that? 67.40.249.122 03:17, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

About animal monogamy, there were recently some interesting results regarding female monogamy in bats. If the females were promiscuous, this tended to favor male evolution towards larger testes (to make more sperm to compete) and smaller brains. On the other hand, if females were monogamous, the males evolved to have larger brains and smaller testes [3]. --Uthbrian (talk) 02:39, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

That's interesting - is it just an interesting item, or does it have a relevance to the rape debate? 67.40.249.122 02:46, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Just an interesting item... I figure I might as well throw that in, with all of the discussion going on about this question :P --Uthbrian (talk) 02:49, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, rape is a social construct, but so is the basis of most of this discussion. Until and unless 83.5.189.10 returns to explain him/herself more clearly, we really ought to presume that he/she was asking the question in its simplest form, namely: Do all female animals provide "consent" (in whatever sense they are capable of) before sexual intercourse takes place, or are there species where the males forcibly impregnate the females? The answer is the latter. --Aaron 02:48, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree - if the question is 'does sex without consent take place in the animal kingdom take place' the answer is yes. If the question is 'does the human construct of rape have close analogy in the animial kingdom' the answer is we can never know. I think any more argument is largely semantic. 67.40.249.122 02:52, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

So I repeat myself: considering the depth of the questions on the first place, I think you're assuming a bit too much. — Get it now? I'd have expected that if the original user wanted all that much insight, he'd have stated so in the first place. ☢ Ҡieff⌇↯ 03:09, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry - what assumptions are 'too much'? I ask not to provoke more largely futile argument, but because I don't understand your point. 67.40.249.122 03:17, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

"This is very mysterious. What was Mother Nature thinking when she made the very thing that is essential for the survival of the species so painful (and presumably, from the female cat's perspective, undesirable)? What purpose does painful sex serve? If it isn't pleasure that guarantees the continuation of the species, what is it?"

If you mean evolution, it's survival of the fittest, not the one with the least pain. The male cat's penis scraping against the female's vagina stimulates ovulation to begin, and this is useful because it's the only way to start ovulation. Also, from searching on Google, I've found out that some scientists doubt that sexual intercourse is painful for cats. By the way, do you think sex is painful for the male, the female, or both? Bowlhover 05:08, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Who knows? It doesn't matter whether it is or isn't painful, or whether pain is something cats would understand. Whatever the answer is sheds no light at all on whether a cat can rape another cat. 67.40.249.122 05:24, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Bowlhover, I have no idea. I was intrigued by Grutness's statement up there that "sex is painful for cats", so I asked some questions. Yes, I assumed it referred to the receptive partner, being the one whose inner parts are being subjected to a spiny penis. And in the context of this entire discussion, which is about whether animals rape animals, it seems quite pertinent to me. If in fact it is painful (which we will probably never know), then I was curious as to whether the tom has to force himself on the female (which may or not amount to rape, depending on your definition), or whether she is a willing participant despite any pain. JackofOz 11:04, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

67.40.249.122, stick a needle into a cat's belly, watch the reaction, then tell me whether you have any doubts that cats feel pain. JackofOz 11:04, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it certainly appears that they do. Any denial of that is largely philosophical. The problem is that we don't know what values they attach to it. The pain of rape in humans, for example, is not simply physical, it has societal and psychological elements. I do doubt that these latter exist in cats, and, given that, and the fact that humans do things voluntarily that are nevertheless painful, I think we're on dangerous ground making too many assumptions. 67.40.249.122 17:40, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I once saw a rooster chase a chicken, force it into a corner and hump her. Judging by the sounds the chicken wasn't too happy about it. Admittedly, I don't understand chickenese, but one can make an educated guess based on sounds chickens make under other circumstances. Now I might as well tell another related tale. In Thailand I witnessed a house warming ceremony that included killing a chicken and throwing it over one's shoulder. A rooster passed by, saw an opportunity and grabbed it (literally). A case of vidi vici veni, where the vici didn't require much of an effort.

Oh, and another example. I once saw a documentary in which some rodent (I think) was said to 'rape' newly borns, which then carried the sperm with them until they were sexually mature and then used it to fertilise themselves. I suppose this was called rape because for humans this would be quite shocking behaviour. But the things is that the animals weren't humans, so the same standard does not apply. Which is not to say that one can not come up with a neutral definition of rape and then see where that applies. Which instantly brings up the question whether rape is necessarily a bad thing. With this approach it wouldn't be, it would just be a neutral description of something. DirkvdM 12:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

You're right Dirk - in human terms a crucial element of rape is that it is a crime. I don't think there is an analagous concept, or, at least, we have no way to establish whether it is, in the animal world. A spider, a chicken, or an amoeba may or may not give consent, may or may not enjoy it, it is still not rape. to make non-consensual sex 'rape' you need a system of values that recognises crimes. 67.40.249.122 17:32, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I believe some birds and mammals do have a concept of "crimes", meaning activities which must be punished by the community, with perhaps the most common punishment being banishment from the group. Obviously, this can only apply to communal animals. StuRat 17:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

That's quite possible - I just think we should be careful about attributing human labels to that. 67.40.249.122 18:03, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

You are all squabling over semantics. "Rape" is just the HUMAN term for unwanted sex act. Would it settle the debate if we said that the female "didn't want it" but received it by force? When you phrase it that way, you can apply the concept to humans and animals alike. Then, yes, there are many species where the male copulates with females who would reject it were they larger, smarter, faster or whatever. This is often seen in primates, although at the moment I can't recall exactly which species. I know that as regards dogs a female will not accept the male during her first days of heat. Apparently, he waits. Guppies, on the other hand, are different. When I worked as a manager in a pet shop, we had to tell people always to by more females than males. An equal number or preponderance of males will chase the poor girl sometimes even to death of exhaustion. Tom cats must hold queens rather viciously by the scruff of the neck, (but who knows, in this example - Lotsa people like rough sex) If she don' wanit, she don' wanit!

One thing we all seemed to have overlooked is that the question is about whether rape exists in "the animal kingdom". We humans are part of the animal kingdom, so the short answer is "yes". JackofOz 21:54, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. 67.40.249.122 22:36, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

The morality baggage (whether rape is "good", "bad", "justified", "unethical", etc.) does not form a part of the definition of the term "rape." You don't need to even have a concept of ethics (forget compatibility of ethical systems) to have the concept of rape. deeptrivia (talk) 22:56, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that's true. Forced sex is not the same as rape. Rape is a moral or legal judgement about a sexual act. For example, statutory rape is when someone apparently gives consent, but is deemed to be not legally able to give it. Forced sex within marriage is not always judged to be rape. etc etc. The 'morality baggage' is the crux of what rape is. 67.40.249.122 23:05, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I just checked out definitions from atleast a dozen different sources, just to be completely sure. Most define it as a physical act rather than a legal or a moral one. Some even define it to include sexual activity forced upon someone unable to give consent. deeptrivia (talk) 23:39, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Well sure, but those definitions will be either legal or moral judgements. They are a range of definitions, and do not completely agree with one another. A law will not define murder as a legal judgement about an act of violence, it will define it as a physical act. The way that you can tell that it's a moral or legal judgement is by the different definitions depending on social context. 67.40.249.122 23:50, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Right, but the question is not whether some non-humans consider rape "legal" or moral, but whether or not they rape. OTOH, many social non-human animals might have ethical systems that do not consider rape justified. deeptrivia (talk) 23:54, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

PS: For example, in some societies, they do not consider lying to be bad in many circumstances (e.g., if it is done to spread their religion etc.) This doesn't allow us to say "they don't lie."

Well, but the problem is that we cannot, abstracted from any particular legal or ethical system, determine which acts are rape and which are not. Different legal and moral systems define it differently. You can say that a sex act is forced relatively confidently, but whether it is rape will depend on the social or legal construct. I suspect that what you want to do is to tell me that your preffered moral or legal system is the 'right' one, and that all others are flawed. In which case, I wish you well, we have nothing more to say to each other. 67.40.249.122 23:59, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Your lying example highlights this too - you have one definition of lying, these other folks have another. They say they don't lie (which, by their definition, they don't), you say they do (by your definition they do). What can we do with this? Nothing except say that their construct of lying is different to yours. 67.40.249.122 00:05, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

They say they lie, and they say it's good. That's the point :) The definition of a lie is simple and independent of the cultural context. Telling something that is untrue, knowing that it is false, is a lie. deeptrivia (talk) 01:42, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, I misunderstood you - the confusion here is that 'lie' is not a crime, or unambiguously considered wrong. I guess the analogy would be that sometimes a lie is fraud, at other times it's not. Fraud law or misrepresentation is culturally contextual. 67.40.249.122 02:43, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

There is no need to worry about legal or moral issues to answer the original poster's question. We just use the most popular definition of rape--that is, sexual activity forced upon someone--and apply it to animals. Of course rape is a human term. All words are since humans invented them. Animals, at least some animals, definitely do have feelings, and some animals will definitely not be happy if sexual activity is forced upon them. As for whether sex is painful for cats, a spiny penis doesn't have to hurt. The spines aren't knives or anything. In fact, since the vagina is a sexual organ, it might even be pleasurable (like an orgasm).

This discussion is getting long. Maybe we should move it to somebody's talk page? You can move it to mine if you want--it doesn't contain anything except the welcome notice and two other messages. Bowlhover 01:53, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Sure - whereever, but the problem is that the definition you give is a folk definition that is not a definition of the crime of rape in any jurisdiction. You are describing non-consensual sex, and trying to say it's the same as rape. Rape is a legal or moral judement about an act. Not the act itself. Think of killing and murder. Killing is unambiguous, but we only judge it murder sometimes. Think of going 60 miles per hour in your car - sometimes this is a crime, at other times not. Non-consensual sex is sometimes the crime of rape, at other times it is not. It depends on many things. 67.40.249.122 02:41, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

The dolphin thing is different than some of the other animals you guys have mentioned. Dolphins engage in consensual sex which happens unders certain circumstances, and dolphins also engage in something that appears to be rape. The female is in distress and attempts to avoid the copulation. The males (usually a group of young adolescents) attempt to force her. It has many of the key characteristics of rape.

EVERYONE please listen. The June 2002 issue of Scientific American addresses this issue (please see http://www.sciamdigital.com/index.cfm?fa=Products.ViewIssuePreview&ARTICLEID_CHAR=6238A0C8-8A35-44A8-B8D7-11DFE4641D8). The link is not very helpful b/c you have to buy the article, but in the article it essentially says the following. Male orangutans have almost double the body weight of females. Maggioncalda et. al. witnessed, over the course of years of research (on other topics), males orangutans attempting to copulate with females. Of course, some of these went as the usual mating of primates go, with cries of orgasm and the production of offspring, etc. But in some cases, the females would violently attempt to thrash the males, to no avail. There would be more violent screaming than during 'usual' intercourse. More than anything else, the biting, hitting, and tearing testifies to these acts as rape - especially because such acts are not observed in 'usual' intercourse. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.52.96.140 (talk • contribs).

New section on diversity?

From what i see of the additional info on female perps I think it would make more sense to add a section on diversity of types of rape / perps/ victims. Maybe integrate this with the types of rape section/expand it. Having such odd insertions as profiles and warning signs of female perps seems really odd and awkward. There is such little research on female perps at all that specifically noting thier motivational differences is peculiar. Then take out the word male under motivations and just leave it at rapist's motivations. I've meet female rapists before and they seemed to me to have very similar motivations to men: power and control. Maybe just mention the issue inside the motivations section if it is important to you. I just don't think it makes sense there.--12.211.21.87 05:45, 8 February 2006 (UTC)survivor (my sig was cut off)

Note men and women are different and no doubt commit sexual assault in different ways for different reasons. I once read a detailed article on "How to rape a man" on the ScandalousWomen porn website. It was shocking and oh so revealing about some women use mind control to rape men. I see nothing in this article that reflects that. I also see nothing here that reflects how famous female rapists often claim that their rape was 'true love' here. Clearly we need profiles on female rapists too here. We also need to point out the huge double standards that exist here in perception, politics and law between male and female rape.

Anacapa 01:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

That's fine. I just didn't think there was enough research for the particular nuances you noted. Do you think you might start a wiki page on this subject? I encourage people to follow their calling on this. Maybe a section on that in one place here. I want to avoid making the whole page about how women are as bad as men. I know women rape and have a page on woman-woman rape i researched myself. I just think we should keep perspective on that in this page. This is an overview of the subject and i'm not sure it will fit all the information you might be interested in. I am obsessed with secondary victimization but only put in a tiny paragraph on this page. I made a huge page on my own site. You see? It has to be in proportion to the whole page and the overview of the subject. I am not trying to silence you.

take care, --12.211.21.87 05:44, 8 February 2006 (UTC)survivor

some catagories for the diversity section:

- victim-rapist pairings (m-m, f-m, f-f, m-f)

-cultural/ethnic,

-lgbtq, hate crimes(against lgbt etc.), dv

-male survivors,

-child abuse, incest,

-marital rape,dv,

any others?

here are the sections that need content added:

Victim-rapist genders

(m-m, f-m, f-f, m-f)

This seems the cleanest and least political form of classification to me. Anacapa 01:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I changed this:

"However, the given the pervasive political, legal and institutional double standards about rape that exist and the associated underreporting of male-male, female-male, and female-female rape statistics the RAINN ratio is likely to overrepresent the real male-female rape ratio versus the other rape-offended groups."

Because it's not really appropriate wording. You have a point but it comes off as hostile to females. Please keep in mind that there will be rape survivors of all genders reading this. You might site statistics on low rape reporting in the male section. It doesn't really belong in the female section. I realize you feel victimized and like you are not heard- but please don't take that out on females. We are not all bad. I really, really do think if you made a wiki page on just this you would get alot of traffic. Not to exclude you from this article mind you. I just don't want to see this turn into a page on why women are bad too. This from someone who has seen both sides.

thanks, --12.211.21.87 22:10, 15 February 2006 (UTC) survivor.

I have emailed a staff member at RAINN and asked them to write a paragraph for this section if they have time.

--12.211.21.87 22:20, 15 February 2006 (UTC)survivor

Hey, I really support that you are raising awareness about all types of assault- trust me, I've been there. However- I really think it's inappropriate to put this in the section for male-female rape as it just undermines the topic. Please attack this topic in the other sections. thanks, --12.211.21.87 12:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)survivor

I just deleted the below. I saved a copy to be polite. (hint) Perhaps this belongs in a section on double standards? I am not saying you should not voice your opinions- it is inappropriate in this section.

"Therefore, rightly and/or wrongly, female-male rape response consumes an overwhelming share of research, intervention, and counseling resources as opposed to the other forms of rape studied below. It also is (and has been since the 1970's), so pervasively politicized that little balanced, skeptical, or objective dialogue about it is possible, a condition that extends even into empirical scientific circles. However, some rare researchers, often from the counseling professions, are beginning to question accepted status-quo steoreotypes about male-female and other forms of rape with facts, bringing needed balance to a topic often known for heated, and on occasion, outraged rhetoric rather than reasonable discussion.

It is important to note that statistics shown above (and below about the other forms of rape) are considered unreliable for a host of reasons. The current numbers do not account for the fact that over 60% of victims (of all genders) do not report the crime committed against them. The numbers do not account for the fact that female victims are much more likely to report their sexual victimization than male victims. The statistics are also considered unreliable because they are influenced by pervasive research biases, legal double-standards and social stereotypes that falsely diminish the detection, prosecution and reporting of male-male, female-male, and female-female rapes. (see content below)."

I have no problem with your deletions. You are probably right about this being inpropriate here; I was reacting to the shameless repetition of discriminatory statistics in this section. Thanks for saving a copy of this. I will see where I can work it in elsewhere. These are not just my opinions. They are facts based on 13 male and female contributors who wrote Sexually Aggressive Women, a book that among many others exposes rampant scientific and legal discrimation against male and female victims of female rapists. Anacapa 00:35, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

cultural/ethnic

lgbtq

sub catagories: hate crimes(against lgbt etc.), domestic violence

Just make sure there are distinctions between rape and homo/bi sexual victims. Some hetero men are raped by men and some hetero women are raped by women. We need to make these distinctions here as in the Rape of males section.

Anacapa 01:41, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Incest and child abuse

Please see incest article and comment here Anacapa 01:37, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Marital rape and domestic violence

See the domestic violence article. I would like to see marital rape here as long as we include how women rape men in marriage too. Anacapa 01:42, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

take care, --12.211.21.87 09:11, 7 February 2006 (UTC)survivor

I have asked someone who studies this to fill in this section.

--12.211.21.87 09:18, 8 February 2006 (UTC)survivor

Okay, My friend who wrote a book on this subject recently wrote the partner rape section bc i emailed her and asked her to. I think she did a great job. I know the links are in the wrong place - she doesn't use wiki much. I told her to paste it in and not worry about the talk page bc it's very triggering to some survivors to post here. So if you have problems with it you can let me know. I did tell her it would be edited slightly. I saved a version of what she wrote so she can work on it later if she likes. take care, --12.211.21.87 03:19, 10 February 2006 (UTC)survivor

non-gender-biased, non-double standard article on rape

I want to see both male and female forms of rape studied here with no bias or double standards against men or women raped by women. Just because female-male and female-female rape is almost unknown, taken with a wink and a nod, and grossly underreported does not mean it is any less serious to the victims. I want to see us clean this article up and make it gender-balanced with no POV double standards. Anacapa 01:53, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

type of rape/rape and gender

I attempted to organized these sections so that the article flows with less confusion. please comment and or offer suggestions. Also please use the history to see specific edits.

Anacapa 02:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad you are trying to keep the article neutral anacapa. That is a big problem here. Some of it comes from POV statements that imply victim blaming showing up and remaining for a long time. People who see that react strongly and make POV statements in the other direction. When I found this article there was a factual statement that the bryant alleged victim was an example of false reporting (the trial hadn't ended even) and that victims who don't win their cases should be put in jail. Starting with her. That was when i realized this article needed some serious attention. Glad you are giving it. Be prepared for some harsh comments from time to time. This discussion page gets a little rough. I stop by as often as I can but it's not easy. take care and good luck, --12.211.21.87 05:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)survivor

Survivor, I know rape-related pain too. Thanks for showing up. It is by all of us showing up that this article will become balanced and fair to all victims male and female. I am not sure who you are referring to with 'bryant alleged victim' though. Could you me tell who Bryant is so I can google her/him??. I will do what I can here with facts/data to avoid edit wars. If I get harsh comments back I will call them. I have been to hell and back and I am not afraid of mere mean comments. Anacapa 06:10, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi anacapa, If you are a survivor then I know you have been to hell and back. I'm sorry you went through that. Kobe Bryant was accused of rape in 2003-2004. He is a famous basketball player. It got way too much press and the alleged victim was raked over the coals- as was Bryant. It was very controversial and involved racial slurs, threats of harm against the victim etc. It was complicated by the fact that Bryant is very popular with sports fans of both genders. This resulted in a wave effect of first everyone taking his side, realizing he might be guilty, going back again. His popularity was a big factor. I think a similar thing happened with a director - Fellini? in the 50's or 60's. He statutorily raped and drugged a 13yr old girl. At the time everyone took his side bc he is popular. Now it just looks like a tragedy for the poor girl/child.

As far as female perps go- I find it triggering- but there are a ton of current events on that right now. I do think there is a way to integrate the information on both sexes though. I lean towards wanting to see that happen on this board. I worry that labeling everything by gender will alienate people of either gender. Rape is usually considered a crime of control and power. I'm not sure there are as many differences btween the genders of rapists. I have been assaulted by a female and she acted just like a frat guy so... I'm not sure how far we should segregate the board by gender is all. Do you see what i mean? I can tell you mean well but please do think of what both genders will feel when viewing.

thanks, --12.211.21.87 06:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC)survivor

transgender information

so i saw a comment on transgender being missing and decided to fill that in:

Transgender sexual assault

The Transgender Sexual Violence Project explores sexual violence against and within the transgender community. Intolerance by police and the general community discourages many victims from seeking help. In a survey of 89 people 11 were assaulted by a transgender person, 21 by a female and 50% did not seek medical care for a year or more. Only eight cases (9%) were reported to the police. 48% did not try to tell anyone at all.--12.211.21.87 06:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)survivor

I'm not sure why the mods edited it out. Was this a glitch or a bias against this catagory of people? I'm not transgender myself but it's a valid catagory. Is something wrong? --Survivor 06:14, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree this is a valid category. I have no idea why it was edited out so I am going to put it back in with an 'expand' template and direct people to this section. Please fill it out with clean tight statements and sources so no one else reverts it. 128.111.95.240 06:01, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

It is repeatedly deleted. I have asked several people to write it. They probably did and someone deletes it immediately. I doubt you will see it at all. --12.211.21.87 22:23, 16 February 2006 (UTC)survivor

I suggest we keep on fighting. Here is what I suggest. Create a section title here called Transgender rape...write up some clean tight sourced content that flow well with the other genders' content. Then add this all to the article with references on the edit summaries back here to discuss any issues. I will back you up. If people continue to delete your section with no discussion we can call in help or put a POV template on the section. I have no idea why people keep deleting this as I say a non-fiction movie (New Zealand?) on rape of a transvestite. Anacapa 06:24, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

External links/ NPOV balance

I changed titles to reflect the general content I saw in the sections below. I mean no offense to anyone here but I insist on equitable 'treatment of all rape victims in this article. Please balance these sections with resources for both genders or call them out as gender specific. I know that rape is far from equal so I would expect more resources on male-female rape than on other types. However, I do hope to see sources that fairly and proportionally represent all victims here with no attempts to silence uncomfortable female rape realities. Anacapa 06:27, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I have to go now- but I wrote the above while you wrote this. The reason I changed the titles is that all of the research resources are directed / have sections on male survivor issues and most (though less maybe) on woman on woman assault and female perps. I think it may produce more stigma to segregate the whole page by gender. Most of the support boards are combining male survivors into the female boards. It's an increasingly (lately) male survivor friendly world out there (in the support groups and resources). Let's keep this page so as well.

I didn't know you were online while i changed that or i would have left you a note first. I added most of the external links so that's why I edited them.

take care and good night, --12.211.21.87 06:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)survivor

I will add research on male survivors here as i come across it.

"Men

About three percent of American men —- a total of 2.78 million men—have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime according to the 1998 Prevalence, Incidence and Consequences of Violence Against Women study.
In 2003, one in every ten rape victims were male, according to the 2003 National Crime Victimization Study."

http://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-of-sexual-assault.html

--12.211.21.87 06:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)survivor

Survivor, I welcome your care and wish you the same back. I am glad to hear that it is a much more friendly and balanced world out there. (When I went to my local Rape Crisis Center I got almost total ignorance and indifference to female-male rape even by male counselors!) My preference would be to make these this entire article gender neutral. I just want to see balance in the links that's all. Anacapa 07:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Hey there, I would like to encourage you in fact to start a page on male survivors if you want to. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Male_rape_victims&action=edit

Not sure quite how to go about it but you might copy paste another wiki page into the template and then alter all the subject headings and content. If they don't like it they will delete it immediately so make sure you go through the proper chanels.

also- there are many survivor personal sites on tripod (free). Are you a member of an online support group? It really helps the healing process to tell your story and get empathetic feed back. Male survivor has a message board. I encourage you to tell your story there and get support on this. It is very empowering.

Take care, --12.211.21.87 09:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC)survivor

"Both being abused by a female and being a male victim can be barriers to service. (See Chart # 24, Single Perpetrator, Gender) Of 89 sexual assault victims, 21 (24%) had been assaulted by a female perpetrator. Locally, a male rape victim was called a "rapist" on two separate occasions when he called the after-hours rape crisis line.[What stopped people from accessing services] Police not believing that the abuser was female. When it was a man, yes, I did tell someone. When it was a woman perp I did not." [4]

here's another one.

Survivor, thanks for you support here. The information above certainly matches my experience with Rape Crisis and Child Abuse Services here. However, I should have mentioned above that I have been able to transform most of my trauma in spite of the lack of support from these services (at great cost I might add.) I am no longer surviving...I am beginning to live. What I want to do now is make sure young men know that female-male rape can happen to them and that it has serious consequences especially when committed by their mothers. I do hope to build another website sometime but for now I want to get the word out here and on the incest article. Please continue with your comments and suggestion about how to make this whole article clean, complete, and balanced. Anacapa 07:02, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

well, someone else made a comment about transgender not being represented so I added that and it has been deleted twice. This page def. has issues about representing all groups. At times it seems downright survivor-unfriendly. It has improved over the past year so that's good. I'm not going to fight about the transgender issue but will report it to some transgender survivor agencies. If they want to address it they will. take care, --12.211.21.87 20:38, 9 February 2006 (UTC)survivor

History of rape and the 1970's

I think the history of rape should include the introduction of rape crisis centers in the 1970's. I plan to write that in soon. Does anyone have suggestions for resources or wording? Feel free to add it in before I do. Thanks.

--12.211.21.87 22:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC)survivor

Incest equals torture?

"Torture is also almost a given in incest or incestuous forms of rape inside the home or in other intimate settings." Where does this claim come from? Especially where a distinction is being made between "incest" and "incestuous forms of rape" it seems dubious to claim that torture is "almost a given" in either case. Torture is a bad thing, and incestuous rape is a bad thing, but we cannot go from that to "torture is almost a given in incestuous rape" and I know of no data suggesting such a thing. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:22, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for challenging this. Britannica Encyclopedia states that incest "is almost universally condemned and is usually viewed with horror." Incest is a form of torture along with rape and other forms of sexual assault. It is the rape of a child's dignity by a close intimate who the child is taught to trust and has to depend on. I will be glad to clean up the language here and make distinctions between intended and unintended cruelty because I see your point. Please glance at the texts on incest survivors and suggest some sound distinctions. Anacapa 00:05, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Your Britannica reference in no way supports your claim that "incest is a form of torture". It's a virtually meaningless statemnent. First insest can be consensual. Second, saying that incest is torture, in some presumably emotional sense, is different from saying that it also involves "torture" in the usual meaning of the word. Paul B 08:14, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Incest of a child or teen by a parent is never consensual!. Torture can be psychological, sexual, social (see shunning) as well as emotional (see psychology of torture. Incest is the worst known form of child abuse and one that includes all of the above forms of torment.

"Incest is a form of torture along with rape and other forms of sexual assault. It is the rape of a child's dignity by a close intimate who the child is taught to trust and has to depend on." Ah, thank you for clarifying your position. Unfortunately, you've rather clarified that your position is dependent upon major assumptions that are just not warranted, such as that incest necessarily even involves a child -- if two adult blood relatives such as a brother and sister choose to engage in sex, for example, it is still incest. Even if we specify that we are specifically talking about incest with a minor child, your Britannica reference only backs up the premise "incest is a bad thing", and as already explained, we cannot go from "incest is a bad thing; torture is a bad thing" to "incest is therefore torture". -- Antaeus Feldspar 13:47, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

The statement I made above is about RAPE (Incest/Incestuous rape) of children by elder relatives or other trusted elders. I am not talking about consensual incest between two adults who are able to understand the consequence and choose their acts. Incest is considered the cruelest form of child abuse bar none. If other forms of child abuse are considered torture and they damn well should be IMHO then incest has to be considered one of the worst forms of child torture. I used the definition of torture in torture to make this claim. I see how you could take issues with this however. We need to show intent here too.Anacapa 05:09, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

You are equating two different things. It makes little more sense to say "Incest is torture" (in the usual sense of the word torture) than it does to say "incest is murder". That could also be justified in some sense, but it would be misleading given that the main sense of "murder" is nothing to do with the first mentioned sin. Poertic licence and emotive analogies are impermissable in an encyclopedia, whatever the subject matter. ReeseM 07:00, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Anacapa, sorry, but you're contradicting yourself. The statement under discussion was "Torture is also almost a given in incest or incestuous forms of rape inside the home or in other intimate settings." There's an "or" in there, specifying that the statement is meant to apply to incest that is rape and incest that isn't. Now you're turning around and saying, essentially, "well, when incest is rape, it's torture" (a questionable statement for reasons already elucidated) "and since we're only talking about incest that is rape there's no need to make a distinction." Except, as we have just seen, it is a point of fact that we are specifically including incest which is not rape. Anyways, the statement seems to have been removed, for good reason. -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:25, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

If a brother and sister the same age willingly have sex, which one is torturing the other? Suppose the female suggested the idea, and the male agreed to it? Some people are clearly destroyed mentally by traumatic childhood sexual experiences, and this colors their view of all things. They view sex through the prism of their personal life experiences.

Trying too hard not to offend....

The chosen rape article is clearly trying far too hard not to offend, and therefore has not adequately performed its job in informing us about the multi-faceted subject that is rape. The article that was discarded is more effective (see: above). It may be blunt at times, but by merely creating articles with - seemingly - the sole intention of pleasing everyone, rather than actually analysing the concept of rape, the whole point of having a rape article is bypassed. We have to be less puritanical when considering 'controversial' articles, as often they tend to be the most effective.

Cue PC brigade…

I share your concern here. Could you call out specific examples and note what (see: above) refers to. I also see an unbalanced emphasis on victimhood here and yet for me victimhood is/was a stage not a destination. I also know that some strong black women raped by men have a much stronger point of view than I see here. How do we show both sides here? Anacapa 00:10, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree that survivorhood is just as important as victimhood. I feel that working on this article is a part of being in the survivor phase. It's when you find your voice and start helping others among other aspects. Perhaps we should start a section of the phases of healing and thriving. I know of a good book on the subject: Quest for Respect. I also don't know why the Transgender section was deleted multiple times. Anacapa- I totally agree. Diversity is one of the subjects I address on my site. I call some segments of the survivor community "the invisible community" because it's not spoken of.

Roberson, Amaya Naomi. (2003). The Silence Around Black Women and Rape. Off Our Backs. 33 (9/10). p45, 1p.

Papineni, P., (2003) Children of bad memories. ; Lancet, Vol 362(9386), 825-826. Database: Academic Search Premier

Abstract: The 20th century witnessed rape being used as a weapon of war more consciously as a means to demoralize and destroy the enemy. Although military tribunals were established to enforce accountability to those responsible for the heinous crimes committed during such conflicts, rape has continued to remain invisible as a war crime and hence is rarely sanctioned. This article explores the psychological aspects of conceiving a child from rape, using testimonies from clients of the Medical Foundation for the Care of Victims of Torture, London, UK. The deficiencies in international law in addressing this issue is also being highlighted. Described as the silent and hidden emotion, shame is perhaps one of the most pervasive reactions to conceiving a child from rape. Part of the reasoning behind the fear of disclosing a pregnancy resultant from rape is the stigma of rape that compounds external shame. The distinctiveness of the emotional effect of pregnancy from rape exemplifies the need to address sex crimes as violations of basic human rights. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2005 APA, all rights reserved)

Fox, K., (2001) To tell or not to tell: Social factors that shape the telling experiences of survivors of child sexual abuse. ; Dissertation Abstracts International Section A: Humanities and Social Sciences, Vol 61(7-A), 2936. Database: PsycINFO

Abstract: Most research on child sexual abuse is conducted with limited subject groups and relies on a psychological theoretical framework. Absent from the research literature is an understanding of the complex social processes involved in the experiences of survivors of child sexual abuse. Accordingly, I use a research approach that starts with the lived experiences of survivors as a basis for understanding abuse and that considers child sexual abuse as a part of several interlocking systems of oppressions, e.g., racism, heterosexism. The qualitative research method of in-depth, open ended interviews was used for this study with 27 survivors of child sexual abuse (15 European Americans and 12 African Americans) with varying socioeconomic classes and sexual orientations. The research methodology is located in the interactionist, qualitative traditions that view the subjective meanings of informants and researchers as important components in understanding the social world. Informants were often silenced in childhood. Whether or not they told, to whom and what they told, and with what response can be understood in a context of social identity, social contingencies, and psychological discourses on abuse. Some informants resisted the abuse in childhood and developed strategies for coping, resisting, and shaping contact with offenders as well as telling about their abuse. The telling experiences of informants are on-going processes that are shaped by dominant, psychological constructions of "survivorship" that contribute to resilencing some informants as well as by social identity and social contingencies. Talk about abuse has provided many adult survivors with the opportunity to heal and to feel better about themselves. But the dominant focus on psychological, individual approaches to abuse has hindered long-term change that might effectively stop the sexual abuse of children. Public talk about abuse has been, for the most part, adult talk. And adult, public talk has mostly been healing talk so that survivors can move on with their lives. Unfortunately, children are still constrained by a social system that perpetuates child sexual abuse, and child talk about abuse is mostly invisible. New types of abuse talk are needed to promote a public focus on abused children. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2005 APA, all rights reserved)

Yungman, J., Hegar, R., (1986) Seeing the invisible: What social workers can do about sexual abuse. Social Work in Education, Vol 8(2), 107-120. Database: PsycINFO

Abstract: Discusses behavioral and physical indicators of sexual abuse, noting special difficulties in recognizing male victims, and explores issues surrounding the primary prevention of sexual abuse. It is suggested that principles for interviewing possible victims reflect general methods of nondirective social work with children. A multilevel school curriculum, with a possible central role for social workers, is suggested with emphasis on the achievement of 3 major goals: increasing awareness, decreasing vulnerability, and promoting disclosure. School social workers may serve as intermediaries between the school and other social institutions for children identified as sexually abused. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2005 APA, all rights reserved)

Campbell, Rebecca, Tracy Sefl, Sharon M. Wasco & Courtney E. Ahrens. (2004). Doing Community Research without a Community: Creating Safe Space for Rape Survivors. American Journal of Community Psychology. 33.

"Rappaport (1995) argued that listening to the stories of people's lives should be an important goal of community psychology. Through analysis of these narratives, researchers can gain new insights into community phenomenon. Perhaps in a similar manner, the narratives of the researchers themselves may shed some light on the process of how research is actually conducted and constructed. In the story of the UIC Women & Violence Project, our narrative focuses on how we identified, recruited, and interviewed a community-based sample of rape survivors. The stage of designing a sampling plan is often overlooked and undiscussed, but in our project, this task raised practical and conceptual problems unlike those we had ever encountered in prior work. How were we going to find rape survivors? Who was "the community" with whom we wanted to work? And, once we found these rape survivors, how could we create a safe space for them to tell their stories? Wrestling with these questions prompted us to reinterpret classic ideas of communities, settings, and the purpose of community-based research."

Feuereisen, P. (2005) Invisible Girls: The Truth About Sexual Abuse - A Book For Teen Girls, Young Women, And Everyone Who Cares About Them. West Virginia, USA : AK Press. Find this title in a library

Summary:

"One in four girls will experience sexual abuse by the time she is 16, and 48% of all rapes involve a young woman under the age of eighteen. In her pioneering work with young survivors through the last 25 years, Dr. Patti Feuereisen has helped teen girls and young women find their voices, begin healing, and become visible. This remarkable book not only tells the truth about sexual abuse, it also heals. Dr. Patti's gentle guidance and the girls' powerful stories create an encouraging message: Remarkable healing is possible if girls learn to share their stories in their teens and early twenties."

The Invisible Boy: revisioning the victimization of male children & teens - Find this title in a library

Male sexual assault survivor information.

thanks for bringing this up. --12.211.21.87 07:52, 3 March 2006 (UTC)survivor

Survivor thanks for these sources. I am going to go check some of them out. What do you suggest we add to this article? Anacapa 04:58, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Causes of rape section

I am working to add content, organize and clean up this section. Any help with sources or NPOV would be welcome. I am trying to include all the history of rhetoric on rape causes here as well since it has had a marked effect on rape-politics and gender attitudes. By 'rhetoric', I mean (often outraged) speculation that is not grounded in peer reviewed science. Several modern feminists have pointed out that Brownmiller's (power and control) rhetoric was just that...rhetoric (and dishonest to boot.) However, due to it's influence (rightly or wrongly) on rape politics and it's shameless repetition as a sound theory despite no sound scientific basis, I think it should be discussed here too. I suggest a glance at the sections above on this topic to see what I mean here. The Evolutionary theory of rape seems to have a bunch of holes in it too. The Dark Side of Man introduces a chapter on rape causeality with a horrible anal rape of a woman by a man and then goes on to talk about reproduction as the cause of male-female rape, a ridiculous example of an author using his own evidence to invalidate his own theory. To base rape politics, penalties and punishments and attitudes on false, politicized or just plain speculative causeality is criminal IHMO. I hope this section will shatter some of these myths and show how the causes of rape have often been falsely claimed and falsely used for disengenous political advantage by all sides. Please comment suggest how to handle such a controversial and politically loaded topic.Anacapa 06:51, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

This is a section about rape causelity not about fault which is already discussed elsewhere in other sections. The two ideas are completely different. As I clean this section up I plan to remove discussions about fault, help, or training so this section stays tight and to the point. I mean no offense here. This topics are valuable. They just belong in relevant sections. This is the section for cause correlations, causes or possible causes of rape. Please comment/suggest before reverts to prevent edit wars.Anacapa 07:30, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I tried to access the 8th reference and it seems like the link has expired, it looks like the only way to acces the link now is to go through a premium service news paper archiver, am unsure what the policy here is on deleting references that still exist but are just unaccesable so instead of editing the page I'll just leave this note so someone who has a clue about editing can do it :). This is my first time editing a discussion page i think so hopefully I didnt wreck somthing. and hopefully this time sig will work too. John.radom 10:42, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Also now having read the above comments I thought i would add somthing. Anacapa, in regards to the reference above on 'The Dark Side of Man' (I havnt personaly read the book so im not sure) but perhaps the author was insuniating that reproduction was the cause of the anal rape becuase a mans biological need to reproduce creats a urge that manifests itself as a non specific need to engage in sexual activity. Wheter that activty is capable of reproducing or not is perhaps not the males concern the only thing hes thinking is that he needs to get off. Do you understand what i mean? But like I said having not read the book i cant relly comment but from what you said on it, it occured to me to mention it. Post again if what i said made any sense or if it was not what he was talking about anyway. John.radom 10:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you read his book then we can discuss this. Anacapa 05:03, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Not quite my cup of tea just thought I'd share my interpretation on the qoute you made. Good luck with the page. John.radom 11:40, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Rape is not a crime in some countries. JohnSavage 09:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

In which countries? Please provide citations. Meanwhile, that change will be reverted until and unless citations are provided. --Nlu (talk) 15:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Female rapist and abuser profiles

Why does this section only contain information about women who rape children? Alienus 18:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Because that is all the info I had available at the time. Female rape of adult males is still seen as impossible 2520Survivors/Articles/Reversal_of_Fortune.pdf+john+g.+macchietto+sex&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3 Reversal of Fortune: The Rape of Men By Women so there is little good knowledge on female-rapist profiles. However, if you or any other editor has info that shows female rapist profiles of adults please add it. I remember reading a long article on the female porn site Scandalouswomen.com entitled How to Rape a Man. It has since been pulled but it was packed with good info about the psychological forms of force that women use to rape men. Of course in the current PC environment it is highly unlikely that we are going to see such info in public forums except maybe in COSMO in covert forms. If you have good sources please let us know and please by all means add good content here. But please be careful to keep the content that is there because from all available evidence it appears that women prefer to rape children (often their own children) in captive settings such as their homes, schools, etc whereas male rapists seem to prefer to hunt their victims outside the home. Anacapa 03:23, 16 April 2006 (UTC

external links notation

Hi there,

I don't really see any spam in the external links section. I think people have just done research and posted the links where they retreived the info in the links area. I am VERY familiar with websites on this topic which relate to research and they look okay to me. Some of the ones at the bottom on controversial topics are not authoritative resources. Then again, controversial research will be that way before the experts attend to it. I don't see it as spam.

Can we remove the notation? I don't think that area is being misused so much as used very thoroughly. Example: the marital rape section had references which i moved to the links area. All the top links are reference materials a student could (and should) cite. I think it has bloomed a bit due to the attempt to make all topics cover all genders (male survivors specifically). The whole article has expanded and become more diverse and larger. In fact I find that there are often "growing pains" i.e. notations that a section has been created but not filled in. This article has come a long way and has a long way to go.

thanks, --12.202.231.83 09:43, 19 April 2006 (UTC)survivor

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../r/a/p/Talk%7ERape_Archive_4_71e4.html"

Category: Talk archives

Talk:Rape/Archive 4

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents

The role of control in rape and its connection to eating disorders

Among the most severe crimes

Photographs of rapes?

2nd degree rape in the US claim

Cleaning up after rapid edits

"may have", prevalence of rape fantasy

Human rights/war

Biblical "taking of the foreskin"

vandalism

Trickey sentence

Legality of rape in some Mexican states

Gaming Usage of Rape

Bias crimes against rape survivors

Sexual fantasy

added to victim blaming

new section

Bias crime against rape survivors

Rape as a tool of war

Section on the Effects of rape

Women are not property

Non-sexual uses of the term

Male Rape Support Link

I dont understand, please explain me

HIGHER PUISHMENT FOR RAPE!

Citations Needed

Secondary victimization and statutory rape

Causes of Rape, or Why Men and Women Rape or Myths about Rape

Rape of females by females

Rape in the animal kingdom?

New section on diversity?

Victim-rapist genders

cultural/ethnic

lgbtq

Incest and child abuse

Marital rape and domestic violence

non-gender-biased, non-double standard article on rape

type of rape/rape and gender

transgender information

External links/ NPOV balance

History of rape and the 1970's

Incest equals torture?

Trying too hard not to offend....

Causes of rape section

Female rapist and abuser profiles

external links notation

Views

Navigation

interaction

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