Talk:Raoul Wallenberg

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Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )

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[edit] World record for saving lives

I seem to remember the 1986 Guinness Book of World Records listing Raoul Wallenberg as holding the record for saving more lives than any other human being. Can anyone back this up? --Ardonik.talk() 03:20, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

The problem here is how you count. You can end up with 30,000, or 200,000. Whether or not Guinness Book of World Records picked a number they were suffiently confident in I don't know. --FredrikW 21:40, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The largest number that I've seen floating around is 100,000, apparently provided by his secretary Per Anger (couldn't be 200,000 - there weren't that many survivors in all of Hungary according to the article itself). But I believe that figure includes lives saved when a German general ignored orders to level the ghettos and kill all the inhabitants shortly before the "liberation" of the city by the Red Army. A (probably spurious) story claims Wallenberg was instrumental in this. The problem is, if Wallenberg met with the general, how could you substantiate what was discussed? If you count just the lives saved by his direct actions, common sense would dictate that it would most likely be in the thousands, possibly over 10,000, but one man saving pretty much every Jew in Budapest? I don't think so. Great as the man was, he couldn't possibly have saved that many in that short amount of time. Remember, he not only had to rescue them, he had to house and feed them.

I have incorporated all this in the article itself. Clarityfiend 07:35, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] date of Wallenberg's arrest

I believe most records have the date of his arrest as January 17. The Wiki entry has it as January 7. Is this a matter of debate or just a typo?

It can't be the 7th. Per Anger met with Raoul on January 10. I have changed it to 17 under the assumption that it was a typo. --FredrikW 21:39, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It is January 17 - one day prior to liberation/colonization of Pest by the the Soviets.Emesz 16:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Death

This article does not mention different theories of how Wallenberg died. The purpose of making him an honorary citizen was to try to pressure the Soviet Union to explain exactly what happened to Wallenberg. The official story of the Soviet Union was that Wallenberg died of a heart attack in the late 1940s (I think 1947?). However, (as the article mentions) many people who had been imprisoned in Soviet prisons supposedly had contact with him as late as the 1980s. One theory that I read quite awhile ago (forgot the source) was that Wallenberg may have been murdered in the early 1980s because of the increasing pressure on the Soviet Union. Another theory that I heard was that he was put into a mental hospital in the Soviet Union. There is hope that with the opening of the archives of the former Soviet Union, we may finally find out what happened to Wallenberg. While theoretically, Wallenberg could still be alive, in some secretive prison camp, it is highly doubtful as he would be in his 90s today. If no one can critique this or can add to it, I may add this to the article itself...I really would like a source to base it on though, I don't want to put this all down by memory. Flyerhell 07:03, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

On the page for Alexander Nikolaevich Yakovlev it is said that he (Yakovlev) released a statement in 2000 that Wallenberg was shot by the Soviet police in 1947. Given Yakovlev's position it seems likely that he would have known the truth. Also since he was not compelled to make such a statement and considering the time between the actual event and the statement there seems to be little reason to consider the statement a lie. I don't know enough about Wallenberg to make assertions either way, but I thought the information might affect the discussion on the nature of his death.


Aye, but who has a reason to lie, may I ask? I am not asserting anything, but could it possibly be just as likely that Yakovlev might not have known the truth, but WOULD lie in order to keep Russia from cutting off her nose to spite her face? It's highly possible. And there are several reliable sources (Abraham Kalinski, for example) who have claimed persistently that they saw Wallenberg in Russia. Remember, people will rarely die for a lie, and these people have been rather insistent on their claim for over forty-fifty years. A Jamestown defender--March 18, 2007.

From the point of view of Wikipedia, I think it is important not to present any one theory of Wallenberg's death as true. There is much conflicting evidence and we will probably never know for certain how or when he died. At the moment (18 March 2007) the article summarizes the evidence and leaves the question open (or NPOV in Wiki-speak), and I think it should stay that way. This also applies to the articles on Amelia Earhart, Jimmy Hoffa, Anastasia Romanov, and anyone else whose death is still a mystery. Not everything is known in this world. Dirac66 22:00, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

His possible death location should be switched from Russia to Soviet Union.

[edit] Religion

I think it should also be more clearly noted that Wallenberg was NOT a Jew (some people may assume he was a Jew because of his Jewish sounding last name. Flyerhell

Yes, iceberg is not a jew either and will need a similar warning. User:Ejrrjs says What? 14:58, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I remember reading somewhere that Wallenberg did have a Jewish connection, possibly a grandfather? Clarityfiend 07:37, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

It might be worth pointing out he wasn't jewish. The Swedish-language version of the article does. (Note that "Wallenberg" doesn't sound jewish to Swedish ears, since the -berg suffix is very common in Swedish names) There's a connection in the fact that Raoul's grandmother's grandfather was jewish, but that's it. Another reason people sometimes assume they're jewish is because it's a family of bankers and capitalists, owning the SEB bank, for instance. --BluePlatypus 05:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I took out "The Wallenberg family in Sweden has been rumored to have Jewish descent, which is incorrect. On the male line, the Wallenbergs are descendants from Swedish farmers in Östergötland. Raoul jr is the only member of the family with a known Jewish descent." This has an unpleasantly racist tinge to it. The brief mention of his mother's Jewish connections should be sufficient. Clarityfiend 05:38, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Personal Story

Saved my grandmother a Ms. Herczog in 1945 claiming she was his fiancee, for she was out after curfew

Holocaust Memorial Budapest

Regarding this Place: Testimonies from the family Jakobovics in newspapers 1947 in Holland:

http://www.spacetime-sensor.de/wallenberg.htm

I suggest the translation of the Holland newspapers from 1947. Objective: more audience in english. Can You help me translating? Regards Tamas Szabo

dbforum@compuserve.de

[edit] Count?

In Australia he is invariably referred to as Count Raoul Wallenberg. Was he a Swedish nobleman? Avalon 05:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

No. From a distinguished family, but not a titled one. You can find a list of the noble families of Sweden here: http://www.geocities.com/svenskadel/

The man you are thinking of is probably Count Folke Bernadotte. --Dahlis 13:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Homosexuality

I think the article should make some reference to his alleged homosexuality: it's pertinent in so far as it may have contributed his identification with social outsiders/the oppressed. The only reference online I've been able to locate is on the South Bank University website: "However, as his homosexuality came to be known about he faded from prominence as a hero of the Holocaust. A new hero was found in the form of Oscar Schindler." http://myweb.lsbu.ac.uk/stafflag/raoulwallenberg.html

Do unsubstantiated allegations really belong in an encyclopedia? Clarityfiend 08:04, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

We should really have a more substantial and authoritative reference before adding it to the article. Gamaliel 08:11, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Is there a reference in any of the biographies? Or were the stories only published in newspapers? KatKat

In my opinion, yes, unsubstantiated allegations can be included (clearly marked as such), but only if they're noteworthy. In this case, it seems rather hard to references to the rumor, so I'd say it's not a persistent enough rumor to garner mention. In particular, unsubstantiated speculations of homosexuality abound for historical personalities, so the criteria for notability would have to be considered higher for that kind of rumor. --BluePlatypus 14:59, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree. In this case, the allegation is extremely weakly supported, and in fact it's quite tangential to Wallenberg's reasons for notability. But more to the point, the original claim of "faded from prominence" is definitely nonsense. There are several schools and a street in NYC alone named after Wallenberg. Obviously, a blockbuster movie will elevate someone's prominence, so Schindler's is a better-known name now. But to suggest that noone cares about Wallenberg any more is simply wrong.
I read and heard about Raoul Wallenberg dating (e.g. as a student at the University of Michigan) and the allegation seems to be not true to fact. Unless the person who posted the note has documented evidece it would be much apprciated if this section was voluntarily removed out of respect for truth and for Raoul Wallenberg. LPfeffer April 25, 2006

Whoever said that should beware of slander. I have read ABSOLUTELY nothing about this sort of issue, and this specific part of the discussion should be shut down immediately. From a Jamestown (and obviously now I must be a Wallenberg) defender. March 18, 2007

[edit] Sightings

http://www.statedepartmentwatch.org/GulagWrangell.htm states that he was seen on disputed island of Wrangel(l) (splelling: disputed)

[edit] Streets

in the section about his facts, where it says he has a bunch of streets named after him in hungary, canada, etc, he has a street named for him in washington dc. i grew up across from this street and had no idea who he was until now. (address for the united states holocaust museum, AKA 100 block of 15th st SW Washington DC) the holocaust museums address is 100 Raoul Wallenberg PL SW Washington DC, 20024. OR 100 15 ST SW DC, hence they are the same street. http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=raoul+wallenberg+pl&csz=washington+dc&country=us&new=1&name=&qty=

ZOOM IN TO SEE THE NAME OF THE STREET.

have a nice day!


[edit] Article Problem

For some reason the first three sections don't end until the middle of the fourth section, Holocaust. This can be seen by the [edit] links for those sections being smack in the middle of the two paragraphs in Holocaust. I can't figure out how to fix it... ideas?

--Sveiki 11:41, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

The sections certainly do end where they are meant to. The 3 "[edit]" links for those sections being situated right next to each other in the 4th section is actually a rendering and layout error. The problem arises from the images that are placed in the article; in this particular situation, 4 images are placed at the beginning of the article and "floated" to the right. This makes all the images clump up together, and the edit links are affected by this. The problem can be fixed by placing the images in their respective sections rather than dumping them all at the top of the wikitext. -- Daverocks (talk) 10:06, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Fixed. Clarityfiend 05:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Too much detail

I removed specific street directions to various memorials, etc.; this is an encyclopedia, not a travel guide. If somebody objects and wants to restore them, they are:

[edit] Incomprehensible

I removed this from the Official Death section as I can't quite figure out what it means and what it has to do with Wallenberg's death: "People were arrested 1953 in Budapest, tortured and forced to take on an obedient demeanor in court, accusing himself of crimes against Wallenberg. Right before his death in 1953 Stalin was planning a campaign.[1]" 'People' is (according to the article referenced) a single person. Clarityfiend 07:06, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal

"The Raoul Wallenberg prize of Melbourne High School, Melbourne, Australia. It includes a AU$500.00 gift from the MHS Masonic Lodge." Clarityfiend 07:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation (for Spoken Wikipedia)

I'd like to record this entry for the Spoken Wikipedia project; if anybody could nail down the pronunciation of these following names, there will be fewer names mispronounced, and I will be grateful. Thankee...

  • Gustav (as in "Raoul Gustav Wallenberg")
  • Nane (Wallenberg's neice, married to Kofi Annan)
  • Gerhard Schmidthuber
  • Pál Szalay
  • Paul Rusesabagina
  • Côte Saint-Luc

Thank you...

Standback 21:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sightings

Moved here until referenced:

  • Prisoners released from the Gulag claimed to have seen a foreign inmate answering to Wallenberg's description as late as 1990. A number of testimonies have placed him in Siberian or Russian prisons as late as 1981.
  • Josyp Terelya, a Ukrainian activist who was imprisoned by the Soviets for refusing to abandon his nationalism and Catholic faith, wrote in his autobiography that he believes he was jailed with Wallenberg. He drew pictures and devoted a significant portion of his autobiography to this man and the influence he had on him.


[edit] GA

It might be too soon for a GA review since it looks like a peer review is pending. In my view, each sentence should have a footnote (expect those in the lead section). Otherwise, how is a reviewing editor supposed to know where the information came from to be able to verify that information? The copyright material in the article footnotes needs to be delted. The footnotes in the article need to be revised to be proper footnotes. I revised footnote 5 to give you an example of what I mean. Also, if you haven't done so, you may want to go through each of these links looking for material to add to the article. This should give you a start. Once you addressed all the peer review statements, then the article may be ready for GA review. -- Jreferee 16:04, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
From FA Saffron: "On the other hand, traditional Kashmiri legend states that saffron first arrived sometime during the 11th and 12th centuries AD, when two foreign and itinerant Sufi ascetics, Khwaja Masood Wali and Hazrat Sheikh Shariffudin, wandered into Kashmir. The foreigners, having fallen sick, beseeched a cure for illness from a local tribal chieftain. When the chieftain obliged, the two holy men reputedly gave them a saffron crocus bulb as payment and thanks. To this day, grateful prayers are offered to the two saints during the saffron harvesting season in late autumn. The saints, indeed, have a golden-domed shrine and tomb dedicated to them in the saffron-trading village of Pampore, India. However, the Kashmiri poet and scholar Mohammed Yusuf Teng disputes this. He states that Kashmiris had cultivated saffron for more than two millennia. Indeed, such ancient indigenous cultivation is alluded to in Kashmiri Tantric Hindu epics of that time.[28]"
  • There is only one reference for the whole paragraph, when the paragraph comes from a single source.
From FA Barack Obama: "Fornek, Scott. "If Obama runs, I'll campaign for him, Winfrey says," Chicago Sun-Times, September 28, 2006.
  • There is no parenthesis for periodical listings. I also notice there are various styles used for the references for newspapers. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 18:32, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA on hold

“ Károly Szabó was April 8. 1953 captured on the street, without legal proceedings arrested, whitout leaving a trace, six months no message to his family. A Secret trial, no official record of the case or the judge's verdict is made available. After six months of interrogation, the defendants were driven to despair and exhaustion. ”
  • Add references to the lead and "Legend"
  • See also is too long; remove articles that have tangential significance to Wallenberg.
  • Remove unimportant links #External links or integrate them into the article as references.
  • Use the appropriate citation template on references ({{cite}}, {{cite web}}, {{cite book}}, {{cite news}}, etc)
  • Remove spaces between punctuation and citation:
    • Bad: blah blah. [1]
    • Good: blah blah.[1]
  • Something else I noticed, the article could use some resectioning. Consider combining several sections to create a logical sectioning along the lines of "Early life" "Holocaust" "Arrest and Death" "After Death" etc —Disavian (talk/contribs) 21:31, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Impressive progress so far... —Disavian (talk/contribs) 00:25, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

It looks good enough to me. I think you've earned your GA status. However, don't let my absence keep you from improving the article. :) —Disavian (talk/contribs) 21:23, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External links

[Search for Raoul Wallenberg [2]]

[edit] Memorials

:Re add these when referenced
  • There are a number of sites honoring Wallenberg in Budapest, among them Raoul Wallenberg Memorial Park, which commemorates those who saved many of the city's Jews from deportation to extermination camps, and the building that housed the Swedish Embassy in 1945.
  • Raoul Wallenberginstitutet, the Raoul Wallenberg Institute, was established in 1984 at Lund University in Sweden. RWI aims to be a leading institution for research, education, and training regarding all aspects of international human rights law.
  • In 2001, a memorial was created in Stockholm to honour Wallenberg. Unveiled by King Carl XVI Gustaf, at a ceremony attended by UN Secretary General Kofi Annan and his wife, Wallenberg's niece, is an abstract memorial depicting people rising from the concrete, accompanied by a bronze replica of Wallenberg's signature which saved so many lives. It garnered a lot of criticism in Sweden because many saw it as ugly and unworthy of such a great hero; however, Wallenberg's sister Nina Lagergren approved of it. At the unveiling, King Carl XVI Gustaf said Wallenberg is "a great example to those of us who want to live as fellow humans." Kofi Annan praised him as "an inspiration for all of us to act when we can and to have the courage to help those who are suffering and in need of help."
  • Several schools in Sweden have been named after Wallenberg, and there are several streets named Wallenbergsgatan or Raoul Wallenbergsgatan.
  • There is a memorial stone and tree dedicated to Wallenberg in Cathays Park, Cardiff. The stone is inscribed "This tree is planted for Raoul Wallenberg, who saved 100,000 lives - A token to his great humanity."
  • In the U.S.: a park in San Jose, California; Raoul Wallenberg Alternative High School in San Francisco, California; and a grammar school (P.S. 194) in Brooklyn; an outdoor theatre located in Overton Park in Memphis, Tennessee.
  • Raoul Wallenberg Monument on Raoul Wallenberg Walk in Manhattan, across from the headquarters of the United Nations.[1]
  • Streets named after him in the Israeli cities of Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Haifa, in Earl Bales Park in Côte Saint-Luc (a suburb of Montreal, Quebec, Canada), Stamford, Connecticut, Missouri City, Texas, Chicago, Illinois, and Trenton, New Jersey.
  • Raoul Wallenberg Park is located in Nepean, Ontario, Canada.
  • He is memorialized in the Capitol Rotunda, Washington, District of Columbia.
  • The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, District of Columbia is on a street named Raoul Wallenberg Place in his honor.

[edit] Show trial preparations 1953 in Hungary

:moved here for editing during GA review

Preparations for a show trial started 1953 in Budapest to prove that Wallenberg had never been in the Soviet Union. Everything was ready for a trial to prove that Wallenberg had been the victim of Zionists. Three leaders of the jewish communitiy of Budapest Dr. László Benedek, Lajos Stöckler, Miksa Domonkos, two additional "eyewitnesses" Pál Szalai and Károly Szabó arrested, accused by torture. Wallenberg's last supper guests in Budapest "to say goodby": Dr. Ottó Fleischmann, Károly Szabó, Pál Szalai. This invitation was on the evening January 12, 1945 in the Gyopár street Swedish Embassy.[2] The next day, on January 13, 1945 Wallenberg contacted the Russians. Dr. Ottó Fleischmann left Hungary, he was after the war Physician in Vienna, "eyewitnesses" Pál Szalai, Károly Szabó arrested 1953 in Budapest.

Károly Szabó was April 8, 1953 captured on the street, without legal proceedings arrested, without leaving a trace, six months no message to his family. A secret trial, no official record of the case or the judge's verdict is made available. After six months of interrogation, the defendants were driven to despair and exhaustion.

A note from a Hungarian Communist leader Ernő Gerő to the leader of Hungary Mátyás Rákosi ("Stalin's best pupil") März 1 1953 in hungarian archive MOL 276.f. 56/184 [3] says: the interrogations prove "Wallenbergs murder" are the zionist in the jewish communitiy of Budapest. The show trial initiated in Moscow, following Stalin-s anti zionist campaign. After Stalins death and as Lavrentiy Beria killed in Moscow, end of the preparations for the trial, the arrested persons released. Miksa Domonkos died short after the tortures in hospital.[3]

The above is very important and ought to be expanded on and moved back to the main page.Emesz 20:51, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wallenberg show trial preparations 1953 in Hungary

The State Protection Authority (Hungarian: Államvédelmi Hatóság or ÁVH) was the State Police force of Hungary from 1945 until 1956. ÁVH actions were not subject to judicial review. On 1953-04-07, early in the morning, Miksa Domonkos, one of the leaders of the Jewish community in Budapest was kidnapped by ÁVH officials to extract "confessions".[4] Preparations for a show trial started in Budapest in 1953 to prove that Raoul Wallenberg had not been dragged off in 1945 to the Soviet Union but was the victim of cosmopolitan Zionists. For the purposes of this show trial, two more Jewish leaders – László Benedek and Lajos Stöckler – as well as two would-be "eyewitnesses" – Pál Szalai and Károly Szabó – were arrested and interrogated by torture.

The last people to meet Wallenberg in Budapest were Ottó Fleischmann, Károly Szabó, and Pál Szalai, who were invited to a supper at the Swedish Embassy building in Gyopár street on 1945-01-12.[5] The next day, January 13, Wallenberg contacted the Russians. By 1953, Ottó Fleischmann had left Hungary, working as a physician in Vienna.

Károly Szabó was captured on the street on 1953-04-08 and arrested without any legal procedure. His family had no news of him throughout the following six months. A secret trial was conducted against him of which no official record is available to date. After six months of interrogation, the defendants were driven to despair and exhaustion.

The idea that the "murderers of Wallenberg" were Budapest Zionists was primarily supported by Hungarian Communist leader Ernő Gerő, which is shown by a note sent by him to First Secretary Mátyás Rákosi.[6] The show trial was then initiated in Moscow, following Stalin-s anti-Zionist campaign. After the death of Stalin and Lavrentiy Beria, the preparations for the trial were stopped and the arrested persons were released. Miksa Domonkos spent a week in hospital and died shortly afterwards at home, mainly due to the torture he had been subject to [4][7].

[edit] Removed for FA status

[edit] See also

[edit] Legacy

[edit] Honors

USPS stamp, 1997
USPS stamp, 1997
Memorial at Great Cumberland Place, London
Memorial at Great Cumberland Place, London

[edit] Memorials

  • In 2001, a memorial was created in Stockholm to honour Wallenberg. Unveiled by King Carl XVI Gustaf, at a ceremony attended by UN Secretary General Kofi Annan and his wife, Wallenberg's niece, is an abstract memorial depicting people rising from the concrete, accompanied by a bronze replica of Wallenberg's signature which saved so many lives. It garnered a lot of criticism in Sweden because many saw it as ugly and unworthy of such a great hero; however, Wallenberg's sister Nina Lagergren approved of it. At the unveiling, King Carl XVI Gustaf said Wallenberg is "a great example to those of us who want to live as fellow humans." Kofi Annan praised him as "an inspiration for all of us to act when we can and to have the courage to help those who are suffering and in need of help."[14]
  • There are a number of sites honoring Wallenberg in Budapest, among them Raoul Wallenberg Memorial Park, which commemorates those who saved many of the city's Jews from deportation to extermination camps, and the building that housed the Swedish Embassy in 1945.[15]
  • Raoul Wallenberg Monument is located on Raoul Wallenberg Walk in Manhattan, across from the headquarters of the United Nations. It was commissioned by the Swedish consulate and was designed by Swedish sculptor Gustav Graitz. Kraitz’s piece, is called Hope, and it is a replica of Wallenberg’s briefcase, a sphere, five pillars of black granite, and paving stones which once used on the streets of the Jewish ghetto in Budapest.[16]

[edit] Bullet removal

I don't agree with it in the Memorials and Honors sections. IMO, they're lists and should be formatted as such. The transitions between sentences are non-existent and it's a bit jarring to read. Clarityfiend 16:36, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Clarityfiend 18:11, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Further suggestion

I think you are doing a great job at improving the article, Richard.

No-one has yet said anything about the external links, but I think someone will sooner or later tell you to clean them up (per WP:EXT). For example, I think we don't need to have all those links to biographies, because Wikipedia is supposed to cover that part.

Also, if you need something translated from Swedish, feel free to ask me.

Fred-Chess 00:35, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Switzerland

Not too many people seem to notice the chilling fact that Switzerland was actually in the business of trading Soviet refugees, who had fled to the Alp nation in order to escape oppression, for Swiss nationals, who had been criminally detained by the Soviet Union precisely for such an exchange. The fate of the refugees does not seem open for very much doubt. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hgintern (talk • contribs) 13:35, 25 February 2007 (UTC).


[edit] Original research

This has been moved here from the main page. Wikipedia rules don't allow unpublished interviews as sources, they are not verifiable. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 20:00, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Based on above remark this section was edited, references were supplied and it was then moved back in the body of document.

[edit] Hillel Kook

The section on "The Holocaust" currently contains a great deal of information about the rescue efforts of Hillel Kook. However, I've read it carefully, and I can find no indication that Wallenberg worked with Kook or had any relationship besides engaging in the same endeavor. If there is such a relationship, it should be explained better in the text; if there is no such relationship, then there's far too much of this article devoted to Kook. (Frankly, I suspect that even if there's a relationship, we simply don't need as much detail on it as we're getting.)

The two men probably did not have any actual contact. There are other important relationships. The relationship was that the War Refugee Board was established mainly because of Hillel Kook's rescue group's intense activism in the USA. Without the WRB it is unlikely that the Wallenberg mission would have succeeded to the degree that it did (and it may well have been one of the main catalysts which led to unprecedented scale rescue efforts in Budapest, such as Carl Lutz', the Spanish embassy's, Giorgio Perlasca's, etc.) How would you recommend rephrasing this part of the article? Emesz 06:38, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


In addition, we get the following sentence at the end of a paragraph about Kook: "Well known Israeli Holocaust historian, Prof. Yehuda Bauer, emphatically disagrees with this" with the citation "conversation with Prof. Bauer at Yad Vashem". Well, a professional author or journalist can cite something to a conversation with the source, but it's fairly well established that Wikipedia editors can't, not when it's not published. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

This was added to provide a neutral view and indicate there are views other than historians' David Wymann, Rafael Medoff, etc. Seems that Holocaust history is filled with controversy - notably the Kasztner and Joel Brand issue, impact of Rabbi Weissmandl and colleagues in the Bratislava Working Group, history of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, actions of Jewish leadership in the free world, etc. There are significant controversies about Raoul Wallenberg. For example some recent historians claim Wallenberg had only "minor impact" (saving "only" thousands rather than tens of thousands). There are significant controversies regarding concern or its lack by the wealthy and powerful Wallenberg family vs. intense activism by Wallenberg's step brother: Prof. Guy von Dardel and his daughter Louise von Dardel. Etc. Some of the controversy seems ti be based on legitimately different views of historic facts. Much of it, however, is politically/"ideologically" motivated. The comment about Prof. Bauer was added to indicate that the important link via Hillel Kook (i.e. the WRB) is controversial. I firmly disagree with Bauer, yet because he and his one time students (i.e. "the Bauer School") are considered to be such an authority it is important that his voice be heard.
Would you recommend removing in reference what Professor Bauer said (to me)? Emesz 06:38, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
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