Talk:Ranks in the French Navy

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Just curious what your reference is for mon = sir. PerlKnitter 13:06, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Knowing several French officers who told me so, books, commons knowledge. Rama 13:23, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Also this :

Dans l'armée, l'usage, à l'exception de la marine, est de dire mon commandant, mon général, le terme mon n'étant pas un pronom possessif mais l'abréviation de monsieur. [1]

(which reads "In the army, usage, except for the Navy, is to say "mon commandant", "mon général", the term "mon" not begin a possessive pronoun, but the abreviation of "monsieur"). Rama 13:50, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

The latter is probably where my confusion enters in. I tend to parse 'monsieur' as 'my sir' or the English version of 'my lord'. I understand that it is used more as 'sir' or 'mister' today, but my mind still wants to read it as the other. PerlKnitter 12:25, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I thin kI see, it is a good question. In "monsieur", it is correct that the "sir" or "lord" part is the word "sieur" (like in "Armand du Plessis, sieur de Richelieu"), which is equivalent to the more modern "seigneur" (=lord). You can confirm this with the plural "messieurs" (mes-sieurs).

I cannot really answer how this "mon" in "mon lieutenant/captaine/commandant/..." came to be an abbreviation of this, yet, this is confirmed in all sources about protocol. I'll try to see whether I can ask this question to someone knowledgeable about it. Cheers ! Rama 16:38, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I do not understand what you mean by "Commanding officers have titles of capitaine". Could you kindly explain? --F Sykes 15:42, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes. Hum. It is slightly more subtle that that, but to be short, senior officers whom you would expect to be in charge of naval units have rank beginning with "capitaine":

• Capitaine de corvette ("corvette captain", equivalent to an army major)
• Capitaine de frégate ("frigate captain", equivalent to an army lieutenant-colonel)
• Capitaine de vaisseau ("ship-of-the-line captain", equivalent to an army colonel)

Of course, you can have a "lieutenant de vaisseau" in charge of smaller units (patrol boats for instance), and a typical "capitaine de vaisseau" is often in charge of a division of smaller vessels rather than in command of large warships like the Charles De Gaulle of the SNLE/NG.

Also, the "capitaines" in the Navy are addressed as "Commandant", which is a further source of confusion, since both "capitaine" and "commandant" are distinct ranks in the army (captain and major, respectively).

I hope that my explanation doesn't confuse more than it helps.... don't hesitate to ask further in doubt ! Cheers ! Rama 16:20, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Translation Question: What's the source for translation that you use, since the titles for officers in French in the Canadian Forces maritime Command are identical?--Mtnerd 18:37, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Canadian Translations to French naval ranks 1.1 Aspirant 1.2 Enseigne de vaisseau de deuxième classe 1.3 Enseigne de vaisseau de première classe 1.4 Lieutenant de vaisseau 1.5 Capitaine de corvette 1.6 Capitaine de frégate 1.7 Capitaine de vaisseau 1.8 Contre-amiral 1.9 Vice-amiral 1.10 Vice-amiral d'escardre 1.11 Amiral 1.12 Conclusions 2 Mon again

[edit] Canadian Translations to French naval ranks

As an naval officer of the Canadian Armed Forces, I have noticed that the rank titles used here are direct translations and does not really explain what the rank is in English. Therefore, here is how I would translate these titles:

[edit] Aspirant

• Midshipman; or
• Naval Cadet

[edit] Enseigne de vaisseau de deuxième classe

• Acting Sub-Lieutenant (For the Commonwealth types); or
• Ensign (for the American types)

[edit] Enseigne de vaisseau de première classe

• Sub-Lieutenant (For the Commonwealth types); or
• Lieutenant Junior Grade (for the American Types)

[edit] Lieutenant de vaisseau

• Lieutenant

[edit] Capitaine de corvette

• Lieutenant Commander

[edit] Capitaine de frégate

• Commander

[edit] Capitaine de vaisseau

• Captain

[edit] Contre-amiral

• Rear Admiral
• Personal note - however, this rank, I believe is equal to a Commodore or an American naval Rear Admiral Lower Half.

[edit] Vice-amiral

• Vice Admiral
• Personal note - however, this rank, I believe is equal to a Rear Admiral

[edit] Vice-amiral d'escardre

• Fleet Vice Admiral
• Personal note - however, this rank, I believe is equal to a Vice Admiral

[edit] Amiral

• Admiral

[edit] Conclusions

Thank you for considering my propositions. user:ctjj.stevenson 16 May 2006

[edit] Mon again

I tried to clarify the mon issue a bit. Mon does not mean sir, ever. That's very misleading to someone who doesn't know French. It could be said to be elliptical for monsieur here, though. (Note that monsieur is simply mon sieur run together. Sieur, while literally "lord", doesn't really translate -- old-fashioned usage would refer to a commoner in the third person as, for example, le Sieur Boulanger (Mr. Boulanger). A noble got addressed as monseignieur (my lord). Tkinias 17:36, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

BTW, the linked page from the Ministry of Culture refers to mon as not being a possessive pronoun in this usage; that's just in the context of the feminist language issue (is a female captain ma capitaine? they say no). Tkinias 17:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm french and I don't speak english very well, but I think I can help you about the "mon". The "Mon" that soldiers says before the rank is really "Monsieur", and the "story" which is write about the decision of Napoléon after the Trafalgar Battle is what french sailors learn in the navy. For a woman, we don't say "mon" before the rank. For example, if a 'colonel" is a woman, we call she "Madame le colonel". Sailors and quarter masters are the "Equipage". Equipage is the unit, as warrant officers, Seniors officers, etc. And I don't know how you have found that warrant officers had an anchor on their insign, but it's wrong except for the Major. Good continuation ;) 11 Jan 2007