Talk:Ramayana

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Quality: B-Class (add comments)

[edit] Removal of Spoiler warning

I am removing the spoiler warning. It seems out of place while describing an epic, a religious one at that. It makes as much sense as adding a spoiler alert in Bible chance 10:18, Dec 9, 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Generations

The generations argument is near non-sense. A generation is the time that it takes for procreation; it is, therefore, often calculated at 20 years. Rama himself was considered to be of marrying age at 16. Using a generational calculation of 80 years is absurd and does little for dating the epic.

[edit] Rupa Gosvami

The references to Rupa Gosvami's work looked irrelevant in the synopsis section. Hence removed them. It does not add to the overall article.

[edit] Rrjanbiah and Ramayana spin-offs

"Interesting slants on the epic have been created that view the Ramayana from the eyes of the asura king of Sri Lanka, Ravana, and his clan. Dravidian Tamil books such as the Ravanakaviyam and Kambarasam are the oldest of this genre. A more recent reprisal of this theme, curiously analagous to Virgil's Aeneid in relation to the Iliad and Odyssey, was created by the famed Bengali writer Michael Madhusudan Dutta, who rendered what he appelled the Meghnadh Bodh Kobbo (Tale of the Death of Meghnadh) in Bengali epic poetic form. Of course, all these texts share a similar opposition to the traditional hero-role of Lord Rama."

Note, my friend, that it's clearly stated here that these books all "share a similar opposition to the traditional hero-role of Lord Rama" and that they "view the Ramayana from the eyes of the asura king of Sri Lanka." I don't know why you're getting so upset. I merely excised your sentence which says that the books "slant" the Ramayana. There is no such verb, in the English language, as "to slant" where the meaning is to run in opposition to. I hope you're not being petty with me because of other disagreements in other pages, since no one's arguing the idea that the Tamil and later Bengali stories are counter to the conventional spins of the story. No one's changed the content, given misinformation or done anything of the sort. I mean, both sentences above are mine! --LordSuryaofShropshire 19:05, Aug 28, 2004 (UTC)

The major problem is that you don't know anything about the subject, but you _presume_ certain ideas and pushing here. I guess, you didn't read Kambarasam page (where I left *at least* few ideas about the book). Ravanakaviyam and Kambarasam are not oldest. Kambarasam was criticising the dirty/illicit/obscene character of Rama. Ravanakaviyam characterize Rama as villan and Ravana as hero; it glorifies Ravana's characters (good characters) and etc. --Rrjanbiah 04:51, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

YES! I KNOW! THat's why I've written that! I said that they go against the traditional grain of Rama as a hero and glorify Ravana's side! How am I disagreeing with you? I'm not! I simply corrected some grammar and left explanation clear!--LordSuryaofShropshire 15:40, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Ramayana

I came across this site which had collection of good links on ramayana. I wanted to suggest one more link which mainly concentrates on webcasting Ramayana, Geeta(weekly) and other philosophical discourses in Kannada.

Here is the link: Ramayana: http://www.vyasamadhwa.org/sundarakanda.htm Sundarakanda: Sundara Kaanda is the heart of Raamaayana. It is the story of Hanumantha, who is the personification of the highest form of Jnaana, Bhakti and Vairaagya. These three attributes when blessed by the Lord will make one, lead a purposeful life in this world and attain Moksha thereafter. Hanumantha is the ultimate symbol of efficiency and optimisation. No act or word of his is either superfluous or deficient. He is the perfect role model for all of us to emulate. If we do, all our apparently imponderable problems will wither away. It will cleanse our mindset of greed, jealousy and anger leaving us free to lead a successful life as useful members of society.

Geeta(weekly): http://www.vyasamadhwa.org/recital.htm

Geeta (Archived earlier discourses) http://www.vyasamadhwa.org/archive.htm

Hope it will be useful for people who want to know more about Ramayana and Mahabharata,

[edit] demise of Book 4

The Empire of the Holy Monkeys was removed in December - is this because of conflicts between translations, or was it an accident? Both the introduction and the Valmiki Ramayana indicate it was grouped in 7 books.

Don't know why it was removed, but it should be there. I have restored it. —Lowellian (talk) 08:29, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ramayana and History

I've started a section called "Historical evidence" that records the various archeological reveals that point to the historical significance of Ramayana. All those of you from different parts of India, please add the points from your nearest ancient city, with pictures of archeoloical/religious monuments that are said to be related to that. --H P Nadig 03:27, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rama's bridge

While the section on this island chain says that it was discovered by NASA, I'm quite certain that the chain was known before, and I'm reasonably sure but not certain that it is marked by the name 'Adam's bridge' on older, pre space-age maps. NASA probably used an old British name. In the present context, it would make sense to name it Rama's bridge. Imc 19:52, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I have removed the section. It's a hoax. (Sources here and here). The original claim itself is preposterous. It claims that the bridge is 1.75 millions years old. Human ancestors only evolved approximately 2 million years ago and Homo Sapiens most definitely haven't been around for 1.75 million years. Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്) 23:54, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I guess you're just bowing out for factoids instead of looking at the NASA image. There's no official technical/scientific document as mentioned in the article pointed by you, that suggests the bridge didn't exist. There might be varied opinion about its age, but one has to take into account that besides theories, even the exact dates of Ramayana are also unknown.

I wrote that Laputan Logic article back in 2002. These kinds of structures are created by ocean currents and are not all that rare. As for the purported age of 1.75 million years, I think it's worth pointing out that, geologically speaking, India and Sri Lanka were a single piece of land only 18,000 years ago.

Hereis the famous image which I believe was actually taken in 1996 and this is what the Encyclopedia Britannica had to say about it back in 1911:

"ADAM'S BRIDGE, or RAMA'S BRIDGE, a chain of sandbanks extending from the island of Manaar, near the N.W. coast of Ceylon to the island of Rameswaram, off the Indian coast, and lying between the Gulf of Manaar on the S.W. and Palk Strait on the N.E. It is more than 30 m. long and offers a serious impediment to navigation. Some of the sandbanks are dry; and no part of the shoal has a greater depth than 3 or 4 ft. at high water, except three tortuous and intricate channels which have recently been dredged to a sufficient depth to admit the passage of vessels, so as to obviate the long journey round the island of Ceylon which was previously necessary. Geological evidence shows that this gap was once bridged by a continuous isthmus which according to the temple records was breached by a violent storm in 1480. Operations for removing the obstacles in the channel and for deepening and widening it were begun as long ago as 1838. A service of the British India Steam Navigation Company's steamers has been established between Negapatam and Colombo through Palk Strait and this narrow passage."

Speaking of "factoids" this whole thing was a creation of the Indian news media. The oldest version of this story still online is here although I know it was lifted from the *religious section* of another site. A few more images of the sandbar here and here. John Hardy 23:09, 16 May 2005 (AET)

There is no place for the natural causeway under "Historical Evidence". The Ramayana states that the bridge was actually built. How could a Natural Causeway be evidence of that? We could perhaps hypothesize that there used to be a land bridge between India and Sri Lanka, which Rama and the Vanara Army could have used. --Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്) 20:48, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling of Vali or Bali

I believe the standard spelling for the name of Sugreeva's brother is Vali, not "Bali", as in the article. The Sanskrit text in Devanagari uses the semivowel 'va' and not the labial 'ba'. User:RajeevA

It is 'vaali' only. Why it is pronounced as 'baali' is because, in Sanskrit there is a ruling - va, ba yoH abhedaH - there is not much difference between the letters va and ba. So va can be pronounced or written as ba. This is why Bengalis, whose vanga bhaaSa is laden with Sanskrit, pronounce va as ba even today - vanga as banga, samvaad as sambaad etc.

[edit] Dating of Ramayana

I came across this artical which dates Ramayana around 3000 BCE as is clear from the description of astronomical events in Ramayana, but if you go through Mahabharat then it is also dated around 3700 BCE. Did the two epics evolved around the same time? Is the fact of Ramayana being atleast 10000 years older than Mahabharat false? My head is spinning. Experts please clarify.

Subhash Kamboj

                                  Here's Clarification(24th Jan 2006)

If we can decide the time of Ramayana, MahaBharat time can be easily determined by the fact that King Shalya who took over the fighting on Kaurava's side after the death of Karna was 50th generation from Luv and Kush (Rama's sons). Lets take an average of 40 years for each generation, that would mean atleast 2000 years as the difference between Ramayan and Mahabharat. This would mean if Mahabharat happened is dated around 3700 B.C., then Ramayan could be easily dated as somewhere near to 3700+2000 = 5700 B.C. But taking into consideration the average age of Human at that time as around atleast 80 years as it has been mentioned in a lot of ancient books that the Humans had a high life expectancy. It would mean that 50 generations is equivalent to 4000(50*80)years, which would mean that Ramayan happened nearly in 7800 B.C. which is what a lot of old scripts from India point to. According to Valmiki Ramayan's star formation it can be calculated that Ramayan did happen somewhere between 7000-8000 B.C. which is around 10000 years from now.

Mayank B. Prasad

The date of the Ramayana has the be older than that of the Mahabharata. Rama is mentioned in the Mahabharata many times. Hanuman was half man, half ape. Hanuman is also mentioned in the Mahabharata. How many years ago did whe see the last Neantherthalers? Mayank I am adding your comments in the main article, you have valid points.

25-AUG-2006: There is more to this around 1 Million Years ago the first anatomically modern humans (Homo sapiens) appear in Africa some time before this, they evolved from Homo heidelbergensis, and the Neanderthals were around till 270,000 Years ago. The scientist stillbelieve that there is a missing link somewhere in the evolution of the modern man. The same missing could have been the apes that were around during the Ramayan Period and Hanuman was one of the other intelligent species other than the Homo Sapiens. And according to our epics they were present during the ramayan period but were not mentioned anywhere in the epics depicting the mahabharat period. There are many more facts which need to brought under light, I will keep on adding newer findings from my side. Lets hope we have more inputs from others also

I do not think historian Sankalia and Basham (his dating is particularly absurd) have made correct assessments. Please let me mention that Alexanders historians in 323 BC mentioned a Ramakoop (Rama's well) with bubbling mud in Baluchistan, the wells (or more correctly geysers) still exist in Gwadar region of Pakistan (As reported by Alexander Cunningham, Surveyor-General, Archeological Survey of India, in the British times). So Rama's story was that pervasive in India even at that early time. Indian folk stories, myths, and scriptures did not require writing down because people learned them by heart. Even after writing is with us for two or three millenia, Indians still learn Vedas by heart, and consider that to be the best way. Written matter does not give information on the stress to be given on various words and the sound. It would be an insufficient method of passing down Vedic verses and how they should be sung. Aupmanyav 18:13, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Manuscripts

What is the oldest extant manuscript of Ramayana? Do we still have the original writings of Valmiki from 4th-2nd century BCE? --Itinerant1 23:04, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

There are no "experts" in this "field". All we have as a connection between that as-of-now "unconventional" version of earlier civilizations and this one are devoid of anything "practical" or materialistic. Whenever, wherever and however the Vedas, Puranas etc including the epics might have been composed, the ones we know to survive today constitute less than 1% of the original scriptures or texts in content as allusions to way larger numbers are uniform and consistent, so that that could not be considered the work of some Hindu fanatic or something similar at a later point in time

No experts in this field, but you're able to give percentage statistics, or are they just speculations? Dwayne Kirkwood 09:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

DURING THE PERIOD OF RAMAYANA, HUMANOIDS WERE IN EXISTENCE AND IT IS OBVIOUS THAT TO SOME DEGREE THERE WAS A CLEAR COMMUNICATION WITH THEM, WHICH SUPPORTS THE EXPLANATION OF ENORMOUS PHYSICAL STRENGTH AND LABOR THAT WAS CONTRIBUTED BY THEM TOWARD BUILDING THE BOULDER BRIDGE BETWEEN INDIA AND LANKA, AND TO ATTACK LANKA TO RESCUE SITA. ALSO, DURING THAT PERIOD HUMANS WERE OF SMALL STATURE, AND SO WAS KING RAMA, AND HUMANOID HELP SEEMS LOGICAL.THEREFORE, RAMAYANA PERIOD HAS GOT TO BE MUCH EARLIER THAN THE PERIOD OF MAHABHARATA. IF MAHABHARATA HAPPENED AROUND 20,000 YEARS BC, THEN RAMAYANA COULD HAVE HAPPENED AROUND 50,000 BC.ARGUMENT IS HUMANS WERE MUCH SMALLER AND HUMANOIDS EXISTED, CONDITIONS WERE LESS SCIENTIFIC THAN DURING THE PERIOD OF MAHABHARATA WHEN HUMANS WERE BIG AND WEAPONRY AND RULES OF WARFARE WERE MUCH MORE SOPHISTICATED, EVEN FROM TODAY'S STANDARDS.(PREM K. BHANDARI Jan. 2, 2007).

[edit] Sita's Svayamavara

This article is going under the generic name Ramayana, though most of the material seems to be for Valmiki's original. The tale of Rama seems to be based on Valmiki's. As this summary is very detailed and not an overview, it would be better to tell what the primary source is. There is no Svayamvara in Valmiki. Janaka is holding a sacrifice and the pre-condition is told to Rama by Vishvamita. The bow is then brought to the sacrificail enclosure. The svayamvara is a latter addition, even if very charming. Some versions even have Ravana turning up for it!

                                           16th Jan 2006

It is better to hve some mechanism to print the date of article or reply at top-right of it, without a big box whioch sudden ly appears when the date is put, and even to separate mesaages. This page is discussing Valmiki Ramayana, and it hoped that the participants are aware of the website >>www.valmikiramayan.net << where most of the above points are given in comments section

[edit] Minor Question

"Just like Christians historically believe in the birth of Jesus, people of the Hindu religion believe in the birth of Rāma." Does this phrase really need to stay? It seems to presume a bias towards Christianity (or at least presume inherent knowledge of Christianity) on the part of the reader, and it seems out of place. Kobresia 04:38, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you are right, it is out of place, i have removed it. --vineeth 06:07, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Death of Dasharatha

I believe the king Dasharatha died as a result of a curse - can anybody with more information add the relevant text? Shreekar 06:04, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Once while Dashratha was hunting, he killed Shravan Kumar accidentally. Shravan Kumar was the only son of blind parents. The blind parents then cursed Dashratha that he will also die due to the pain of his son's separation. After saying the curse, Shravan Kumar's parents died. This is why Dashratha died due to the pain of his son Rama's separation when Rama went to the forest for 14 yrs.

[edit] Unnecessary for politics to come in here

No need to mention political aspects in the text related to Some landmarks related to Ramayana - Ayodhya. I will be removing these references if no compelling reason is given. Shreekar 06:04, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Archeological Correlations

While I accept that certain Hindus may take the Ramayana as literally true,the archeological evidence does not back up the time estimates made here. That persons in the epic may have been neandrethal or sub-human is also an unlikely proposition. Perhaps an accurate attempt at dating the oral and textual representations would provide some context as to revisionism over time and the correlation of events to the historical record.

All of the dead would have been thrown into the ganga, or burned, as is the custom. So, it is not surprising that there is little archeological evidence. The lack of evidence doesn't mean that the dates are wrong however. Dwayne Kirkwood 05:38, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Lack of evidence does not mean the dates are wrong, but by the same token it also means they are not absolutely right either. The second para in the lead section is full of POV and original research. I am moving it to a separate section on Dating Ramayana - Parthi 23:49, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Current Work (23-06-06)

Hey Venu62, are you planning on reworking all of this article? I'm curious if you're planning on renaming all of the headers in the section "Story of Rāmāyaņa". If so, perhaps this can be done in advanced? Looks messy as most of the titles are named "BOOK III" etc, while your new titles don't have this prefix. Personally I'd prefer that the Book titles were kept, rather than being changed (the book titles are useful for reference). Dwayne Kirkwood 03:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Dwayne, I am in the process of rewriting the story section. I think it will be more readable if the story is given without sticking to the original canto structure of Valmiki Ramayana. I am also intending to add a section after the story giving the sturucture of the book with its canto titles. I am also changing the tense of the story into past from the current present tense. I should be finished tonight, but I had to wake up early to see the Socceroos go through to round 2. So I don't know how long I will be up tonight. I shouls finish it on the weekend though - Cheers Parthi 03:34, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Style that we use

Are we referring to the Ramayana as "the Ramayana" or "Ramayana"? The usage doesn't seem to be uniform throughout the article. --Kaushik twin 06:31, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

It should probably be just 'Ramayana' - Parthi 11:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel words?

How does

In its current form the Valmiki Ramayana is dated variously from the fifth century to the first century BCE. It has gone through many interpolations, making it impossible to accurately date it using internal evidence. Some historians have proposed that hidden within its Hindu religious imagery is the story of the migration of the Vedic religion to the Deccan and the peninsular India.

fit with the Weasel words criteria?

- Parthi 06:41, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Some historians Is it clear now???

No, it is not anon, the sentense is cited. - Parthi 10:58, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

You have to include that historian's name .other wise remove that line . I am re-adding the tag.Bharatveer 12:41, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Book Titles

Why were they removed? It is accurate to include them in the article. I believe we should re-add them. Nobleeagle (Talk) 10:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Because the article is not only about Valmiki Ramayana, but Ramayana in general. There is a section detailing the structure of Valmiki Ramayana, the oldest version of Ramayana available - Parthi 11:00, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lava-Kusha Kanda

My edition of the Ramayana, which I bought near a temple in India, although it shouldn't make much of a difference. Has an extra chapter, the Lava-Kusha Kanda, however, when I added it it was promptly removed without any notice...is it just my edition that has the chapter then? Or is the story of Lava and Kusha detailed in the Uttara Kanda in other editions. Nobleeagle (Talk) 23:58, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

An anonymous user removed it, however all the version version I have seen have only seven. Without actually seeing the book, I can only guess that in your edition, the Uttara Kanada has been split into two. - Parthi 00:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

You're probably right, I won't readd it then. Nobleeagle (Talk) 00:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] User:Bharatveer's edit wars

This user has unreasonably started to indulge in edit wars on a passage in this article. He/she is unwilling to discuss this in the talk page before unilaterally deleting the following passage:

There is even a version of the story prevelant amongst the Mappilas of Kerala. This version, known as Mappila Ramayana, handed down orally over generations has been comitted to writing recently. Being or Muslim origin, the hero of this story is a sultan. There are no major changes in the names of characters except for that of Rama's which is changed to `Laman'. The language and the imagery projected in the Mappilapattu are in accordance with the social fabric of the earlier Muslim community.<ref>See ''A different song'', ''The Hindu'', Aug 12, 2005</ref>

I need some help dealing with this user - Parthi 09:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

How can u term it as an edit war; its just a dispute about content.

A 'reputed' newspaper reports about some "claims" of "reputed" researchers. , but it should not be included in an encylopedic article , when it is not even published in any 'reputed ' journal.Bharatveer 10:08, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

If someone insists in reverting changes repetedly then it is an edit war. Content disputes are discussed, not unilaterally changed.

If you have problems with the way The Hindu has reported this, then take it up with that journal. There are numerous articles in WP citing newspaper sources. They don't wait until things get published in so-called reputed journals. I do not agree with your delete. Please revert back your reversion. - Parthi 10:14, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

sigh, I would be overjoyed if Bharatveer would respect WP:CITE even by citing as much as newspaper articles for his own fanciful additions. The removal of this section obviously qualifies as misconduct on Bharatveer's part, and his 'retort' above doesn't even seem to make sense (which I find to be a very frequent property of his contributions). dab (ᛏ) 16:34, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

dab,Nice to see you here . It hurts me very much whenever i see you "sigh" and "gasp".It is strange a person like you who insults in his every reply finds "misconduct" on my part. My contributions are for everybody to see .They don't need your "scholarly" guidance. Bharatveer 16:52, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid they do. They would, rather, but since I am not prepared to act as your private tutor, they are better off being rolled back. I've yet to see you do anything useful around here. Now please stop editing article space until you have a point to make, consider using Wikipedia:Sandbox in the meantime. dab (ᛏ) 17:55, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I am afraid they don't. Atleast not from a person who feels like this :

"I can stick around on Rajput, but I felt let down, people on AN told me simply "don't feed the trolls". These are not simply trolls in the narrow sense, and it is pointless to waste time with them, because even if you get them to listen to sense, there are millions of more clueless people where they came from, and especially in India, every sh*thole is getting internet access. I feel for these people, because they are in an actual ethnic conflict, and must feel actual hate, but I don't feel responsible for babysitting them, Wikipedia is not for them." (Emphasis mine ) .Indians may feel hate , but I am sure they wont ever achieve the levels of "success" of "national socialists " or their "switssshs" bankers either.

So you first better mend your own ways before advising anyone .Bharatveer 18:40, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adhyathmaramayanam

Adhyathmaramayanam, the Malayalam version of Ramayana, is based (mostly inspiration; loose translation at some places) on a Sanskrit work on the same name whose author is not known. If anyone knows more about the Sanskrit work, can they please add it to Adhyathmaramayanam Tintin (talk) 06:41, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

On a sanskrit work? by an unknown author?? Bharatveer 08:29, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I have seen it in a few places, notably in the introduction of the NBS edition of Adhyatma Ramayanam. This one that I have at home was bought by my father some thirty years back and the 40 odd page intro was written by one A.D.Harisarma. It contained examples of places where Ezhuthachan has used ideas from the the original, with translations from the original work and Ezhuthachan's lines. I can look up and tell the exact details in a few weeks time, when I go home again.

This link talks about a Sanskrit Adhyatmaramayana by Ramanandacarya. I can't remember the NBS intro mentioning the name of the author, but I may have misremembered it. Tintin (talk) 10:06, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Bravo!! post modernistic revelation pehaps.Bharatveer 11:51, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ramayana and Book by Hasmukhlal Sankalia : Navjivan Trust

Navjivan Trust of MK Gandhi has published in Gujarati Language Ramayana in Historical Perspective by Hasmukhlal Sankalia. The reader of this article will be benefited if somebody will give the information in short.

vkvora 17:58, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] English Translations

This article needs to include a section on the various English translations of the Ramayana. As with any great piece of literature, translations often play a major role in the interpretation of the text. For example, one of the most widely read translations of the Ramayana in the American academic context is the translation by Arshia Sattar. Sattar's translation often takes precedence in American universities because of the measured use of more contemporary language, which makes this particular translation more accessible to a non-native audience. --JupiterMoon 09:05, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

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