Talk:Ram Bahadur Bomjon

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Portal:Biography
 Biography Portal
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article. [FAQ]

Contents

[edit] A far better picture

Image:Ram Bahadur Bamjan.jpg

The eNewspaper MumbaiMirror.com has published a much better picture of Ram in a recent article on his disappearance. As a matter of fact it is the closest look of his face that we can see. Its a shame the picture is copyrighted. Do you suppose we should ask them for a "fair use" permission? - mskadu 12:50, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

The article's disappeared! -mskadu 21:46, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Found it and uploaded to wikipedia, for preservation, under "license unknown" - mskadu 22:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

This picture was one of the earliest; I found it in a news release and copied and printed it way back in November. But you're right, it's the best one I've seen and it's good to have it here.

Hugh Higgins 18:24, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I've updated it with a slightly better i.e. color version. - mskadu 14:10, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
This one looks like he's sixteen and in colour, very close: http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/buddha-boy-back-with-a-weapon/2006/12/26/1166895299834.html - Julia Rossi 27 Dec 06

[edit] Previous

I'd like some scientific insights about the metabolism Reply to David Latapie 00:54, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Some have speculated he is drinking rainwater and eating grass off the ground at night. But with the amount of people constantly surrounding him, I can't imagine he's sneaking off to McDonald's like a "breatharian". I hope the poor fellow doesn't die, because he will probably have a lot to say if he lives through it. Ashibaka tock 05:26, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Some of the articles about him note that a screen is placed around his tree during the night, hiding him from view. I think probably people are sneaking food to him in that time. ‣ᓛᖁ♀ᑐ 05:33, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Sounds pretty sensible. Ashibaka tock 04:43, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
in a sydney morning herald article (prob from BBC) by Gopal Sharma in Katmandu dated Dec 27 - mentions he eats herbs - that's still pretty light fare. juliarossi Dec 27

[edit] Não acredito!!

Como o garoto não esta sendo vigiado a noite, creio que está se alimentando nesse periodo. A fé ludibria as pessoas.

Rodrigo Cavalcanti

What was that you said?--Mimbster 10:47, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe the language is portugese (?). Babelfish translated that as - As the boy this not being watched the night, I believe that it is if feeding in this periodo. The ludibria faith the people. - mskadu 12:01, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

It is supposed to be portuguese, but it is that cursed dialect spoken in Brazil. Correctly translated: "As the boy is not being watched at night, I believe that he is eating during that time. The faith blinds/cheats the people. Flamarande 12:36, 12 March 2006 (UTC)Bomjan ‘reappears’ briefly


Bomjan: briefly appeared  and disappeared again


BY UPENDRA LAMICCHANE


NIJGADH, March 19 - Chairman of Om Namobuddha Committee, that looks after the area where 'Buddha Boy' Ram Bahadur Bomjan meditated for 10 months, reportedly without food and water, before disappearing last week, claimed today that Bomjan briefly appeared in a forest, talked to committee members and disappeared again promising to return after six years. Bomjan was spotted at 8 a.m. Sunday morning some three kilometers Southwest of the meditation spot, claimed chairman Bed Bahadur Lama.

"We had reached there looking for him," Lama said. "He was standing beneath a tree attired in yellow."

According to Lama, a team of seven people had reached there looking for the 'Buddha Boy' who reportedly vanished after reappearing for half an hour. "He said he would reappear after six years. He has asked monks to perform prayers in the meditation spot," Lama claimed.

Bomjan reportedly told the team that he had reappeared to take leave of the committee, as he had left without informing them. "I left because there is no peace here," Lama quoted Bomjan as saying. "Tell my parents not to worry about me."

According to Lama, the team offered a khada to Bomjan and conversed with him. "He asked people not to worry about him and said that he is still in Nepal," Lama said.

"However, he said that no one could find him. He also said that he has camped in an undisclosed place where he reached after walking for five days and five nights," Lama further said.

Meanwhile, the committee members today screened a video which they claimed they had filmed during Bomjan's brief reappearance.

Posted on: 2006-03-19 19:26:24 (Server Time)


[edit] Questions:

Can somebody tell me what a "khada" is?

I wish somebody would also inform us where and when the "video" of Ram Bomjon was shown, and whether everybody, including his parents, agree that it is really he. Very sketchy reporting on all this so far! Hugh Higgins 20:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

No clue on "khada". As to the video, check the BBC. There is a very grainy soundless video, but if it's not him then he has a very scruffy twin brother running about. You can see him speaking on the video. [1] 72.145.102.175 03:40, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chaitra

*sigh*
My date for his birthday was off by a year? That's disappointing. -_-
‣ᓛᖁ♀ᑐ 00:12, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

...wait, [2] says he was born in "the month of Chaitra on Baisakh 27, 2046". [3] says "the full moon day of Chaitra 2046". Was he born in Chaitra or Baisakh? ‣ᓛᖁ♀ᑐ 00:19, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Looks like we're going to have to find another source... I knew you couldn't have screwed up the date, but I thought the other guy might be right because he actually went and visited. Ashibaka tock 01:30, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why a Stub?

For several reasons:

  • The article lacks classification into articles related with Nepal/ Buddhism.
  • More info is needed on what buddhism has to say on the reincarnation of buddha
  • Cross linking required to any buddhism related material
  • More info on where this is happening in Nepal.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mskadu (talk • contribs).

Read Wikipedia:Stub. "A stub is an article that's obviously too short, but not so short as to be useless." Labelling this a stub is flat-out wrong, and you should avoid doing that for any article longer than one paragraph. As for the items of cleanup you have mentioned, I will fix those four things myself (except for the second one, which I don't understand). Ashibaka tock 01:26, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Update: Actually I don't understand what you're talking about in the fourth bullet either. Do you want a map? Usually we don't supply maps in articles that aren't about a specific geographic location. Ashibaka tock 01:34, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for taking this up. About 2nd bullet - i was wondering if we could discuss a bit on what is buddhisms take on ths subject i.e. is there any related prophecy or myths (maybe). nothing hard and fast - just a suggestion. As for the last bullet, i did not mean a map. I was hoping to see more details about the geographical location of where this is happening - north/south? Any major locations nearby? And on second thoughts - China hasnt said anything in this (yet) has it? -- mskadu 08:13, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I get what you're thinking. Buddhism is not the sort of religion that sponsors prophecies or myths; you're thinking of Hinduism, or something. As for Bara district or a Chinese reaction, I don't know anything unfortunately, but the websites linked to suggest this article is pretty complete. Ashibaka tock 07:16, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Well .. Yes and No. I dont really know a lot of Buddhism (not that i am very knowledgeable about Hinduism). Anyway, you seem to have done my long-pending job of merging the two articles. Cool! Though prompted by this discussion i did manage to do some reading on Buddha. Especially interesting are the Marks of Buddha - mskadu 20:49, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I deleted the following paragraph from the text:

"According to Buddhist beliefs, Bomjon is not a reincarnation of any previous Buddha. Once a person reaches the state of enlightenment (bodhi) and becomes a Buddha, he is never reincarnated. To become a Buddha means ending the continuous cycle of birth, death, and rebirth that it is believed the mind goes through until reaching enlightenment. Any human being can become a Buddha by realising the true nature of existence but when one reaches this point, by definition, the cycle of reincarnation is extinguished."

For some Buddhists this is exactly what a Buddha is: Someone who reaches the state of breaking free of the cycle of birth, death, and rebirth, but then chooses from concern for humanity, to return to a human form. It is also very confusing since the term reincarnation is used and then incarnation, without explaining what would be incarnated [sic].

I also deleted the word "Buddist" for the heading leaving just "Beliefs" as this is a very wide and generalized statement such as saying "Christian" beliefs and stating only a decidedly Catholic or Protestant, or sub denomination opinion.

In the following paragraph I left in the reference to the "historical" buddha, but it is confusing. While this would be the first historically recorded buddha, but there have been subsequent, including the incarnation of Maitreya, mentioned in the following sentence.

And in these comments, there is the statement "Buddhism is not the sort of religion that sponsors prophecies or myths; you're thinking of Hinduism, or something." I think you are making a gross generalization and may be thinking of the Zen school.--Emnipass 15:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)Emnipass

You are correct, I was referring to the theoretical, overarching set of beliefs, which was first concocted by Western Buddhists. Ashibaka tock 16:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paucity of Info in the Press on Ram Bomjon

I have been getting Google updates on this story from the first. There are only a very few press articles about this boy, or Rinpoche, this amazing being. I am surprised that there are not more, and that there is no good investigative reporting about him or about the people who know him and believe in him. Clearly it's a story which merits a book, and the book would be a good seller. It is amazing even that no one seems to know if he is called "Bomjon" or "Banjan." Surely this ought not to be hard to verify, but it seems the reporters on the story have not even been in Nepal to interview key people.

This Wikipedia article chimes well with what I have read already in the world press - precious little. It is the best article I have seen, the best summary, and has a few points of information I had not read before. Congratulations to the contributors.

Now we need more!

Hugh Higgins 06:08, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

We know for sure that he is called Ram Bahadur Bamjan (Bamjan can also be pronounced as Bomjan by the nepali's). Most nepali's will have a Bahadur attached to their name (Bahadur=Valiant). So i dont really think there's much doubt in there. There have been a few bloggers who have visited the village and have written first hand accounts. The disappearance of the boy yesterday has further sensationalized this matter. -mskadu 11:53, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Nice clarification, thanks much. Some of the papers have been recording the name as "Banjan" and I am glad to see that it is "Bamjan" because intuitively I felt like pronouncing it "Bomjon" as most of the papers put it. Now I will have to add "Bamjan" to Google search! I may be missing articles. Yes the disappearance is amazing, I don't expect much quick clarification because the press is definitely asleep on this story. Hugh Higgins 19:25, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I suppose so. I am hoping you have heard of and use Google alerts. I use "Ram Bahadur (Bamjan OR Bomjan OR Bomjon)" (sans the quotes, of course) - mskadu 23:19, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Record?

I was trying to find a webpage recording the longest that one can survive without food/water. Couldnt find it on Guiness book site. Can anyone verify this? Either that or we remove the reference to the record. -mskadu 23:48, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I really doubt anybody knows. It could be said all the evidence is "anecdotal," but human life is "anecdotal"! There are hundreds and hundreds of stories in India of saints, sadhus and yogis who survived for long times without eating, sometimes supposedly years. Whether to believe that or not is one's own decision. Then there have been Catholic saints who supposedly lived eating nothing but the Eucharistic wafer. A 40-day fast such as that Jesus endured has been undergone by many, but now when I hear that I wonder what kind of fast they mean - really nothing but water, or some fruit juice, or what? A yogi is not going to subject himself to fasting in a cage so scientists can test him! Not if he has any self-respect. And military prisoners who want to fast to death are force-fed. It's a topic with very few standard answers.

Hugh Higgins 00:00, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

There's no doubt about that. But we can take the officially recorded (emm..) records as a yard stick. After all, it is mentioned in the article. Otherwise we will need to re-word it accordingly. -mskadu 11:29, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ram Bamjan's Birthdate

I am curious as to where the reported May 9, 1989 birthdate of Ram Bamjan came from? I haven't found it in any of the press reports, but then they have not been good at giving any solid biographical information about him. I wish whoever recorded that date here would let me know its source.

As an astrologer, this is important to me. It is fascinating that the traditional birthdate of the Lord Buddha would make him Taurus, and the Wesak festival is celebrated in the month of Taurus annually. Likewise it is the birth-month of Ram Bamjan if this date is correct. It was also, of course, the month he began his prolonged meditation on May 16 or 17 (I have seen both dates) 2005.

Hugh Higgins 23:25, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Got any good links for someone curious about astrology (sorry, a bit offtopic)

Right, off topic, we may be booted out of here! Of course first I would list my own daily astrological forecast-meditation based on current planetary positions; in it I frequently mention books and teachers I have relied on and learned from.

Hugh Higgins 12:22, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hoaxes category

I removed the hoaxes category, imo it doesn't belong. Although the food/water bit is obviously not true, I don't think much else is disputed? sinblox (talk) 03:29, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, but I'm not going to edit war over it. The article clearly deserves to be categorized as a hoax. Furthermore, the article is in violation of the NPOV policy. —Viriditas | Talk 05:29, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I see the Hoaxes category is still there - so it would appear there is a "war" here. To call something a hoax is clearly to label it with one's own point of view. Who is the hoaxer here? Ram Bomjon himself has not claimed that he did not eat, not according to anything I have read in any press report. It was "followers" who claimed that. He has not claimed to be a new Buddha, it is "followers" who say that. And where is the hoax? Who is profiting? Nobody, because the funds of the group have been appropriated - or "frozen" in delicate language - by the Nepalese government. This is a clear violation of religious freedom, and so I suggest that rather than "Hoax" this article be classified under "Religious Persecution." Hugh Higgins 10:48, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
You appear to be mistaken. I have not added the category back into the main article. In fact, the edit history demonstrates that Sinblox (talk • contribs) added the category to this page at 03:29, 21 March 2006. [4]. Please get your facts straight before making accusations. Thank you. —Viriditas | Talk 10:56, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
If I made a false accusation I apologize. I was referring to the box with a blue "Hoaxes" in it at the bottom of this discussion page. I assumed that that meant that the article was in the "Hoaxes" category. I don't know why that box is there. Hugh Higgins 11:13, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I just explained why the box is there. Sinblox added it to this page (I'm guessing by mistake, since he removed it from the main article). In an act of goodwill, I have removed it from this page, however I am not yet convinced that it doesn't belong on the main page. —Viriditas | Talk 11:17, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I did accidently add it to the talk page, sorry about that. sinblox (talk) 00:40, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

The POV represented in this article is far too sympathetic to the outrageous claims made by the proponents, and lacks little if any skepticism regarding the reliability of such claims. In fact, Bomjon is one of many who have made such claims, some of which have been evaluated, all of which have been determined to be hoaxes perpetuated for the sole purpose of financial gain. How these claims can be treated seriously is an insult to the intelligence of the reader. I've changed the "scientific tests" section to "skepticism" which may alleviate some of the POV and allow for further criticism. I'm not entirely convinced the NPOV tag should be removed just yet. —Viriditas | Talk 06:13, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The fact that you have categorized this as a hoax reveals your own fixed POV. Please try to keep an open mind, and to not judge without confirmed fact. Calling this case a "hoax" without definitive proof is NPOV. Calling it true would also be NPOV, but so far everyone has been pretty careful to present only the facts. The NPOV tag is groundless. If no one (besides Viriditas) has any objections in the next 24 hours, I will remove the NPOV tag. 72.145.102.175 03:59, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
On Wikipedia, competing points of view require balance and fair characterization. This has nothing to do with my POV and everything to do with Wikipedia policies. —Viriditas | Talk 10:11, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Putting the obvious scientific complaints in the lead paragraph seems like a good solution. Maybe some parts of this are still too credulous but I'm going to remove the {{npov}} as well as that Godawful {{current}} box which should only be used for articles changing every minute. Ashibaka tock 12:34, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Yep... Works for me! 72.145.102.175 05:03, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality: This is the Fairest Article I've seen about Ram Bomjon

It's ironic that someone from within Wikipedia would be shooting the organization in the foot by claiming that the Wikipedia article about Ram Bomjon is not neutral. In fact, it is the fairest article about him I have seen anywhere.

The section about his early life says in its first sentence "According to family and friends," and that is honest reporting. When one precedes an account with "according to family and friends" one is not vouching for the accuracy of every following detail but reporting what family and friends say about the subject of the article. This is eminently fair.

The section titled Skepticism is also eminently fair, reporting exactly what the doubts about the claims of not eating are, and leaving no doubt that there is no full evidence, at this point or according to our knowledge from very skimpy press reports, that Ram Bomjon has not eaten for ten months, only full evidence that he has not eaten during the day when people were able to see him.

This is a religious or spiritual phenomenon. It is not a scientific phenomenon. When reporting on religion or spirituality one reports on what people believe and what they say. One does not vouch for the "validity" of what they say because obviously in the realm of religion and spirituality there is often no outward, objective, "scientific" or scientistic way of proving anything at all. The reporter's obligation is to report what people say and believe about the subject with as little bias as possible. This the Wikipedia article does better than any I have read so far.

As an example of biased and twisted "reporting" about Ram Bomjon I present the following, the latest article about him which Google Alerts has turned up on March 21, from the Telegraph Group:

Deepening mystery of missing 'Buddha boy' By Thomas Bell in Kathmandu (Filed: 21/03/2006)

The mystery surrounding the disappearance of Nepal's 15-year-old "Buddha Boy" has deepened, after he briefly appeared to supporters then vanished again.

Footage apparently shot on Sunday shows Ram Bomjon, the would-be Buddha, meeting members of the committee that manages his hugely popular, and profitable, pilgrimage site.

This paragraph contains two whoppers which are quite frankly either lies or utterly biased and wrong statements. First, "The would-be Buddha." Ram Bomjon has stated honestly that he is not a Buddha but perhaps a rinpoche, that is, reincarnated lama, which is not entirely rare in Nepal or Tibet. He is not "a would-be Buddha" but just the opposite: He has asked his supporters not to call him a Buddha. So Thomas Bell's racism (perhaps) or biased intolerance is highly visible and disgusting. (Or else he is so utterly uninformed about what Ram Bomjon has said that he ought not to have presumed to write an article about him.)

The other whopper, which is in fact a slander, is "his hugely popular, and profitable, pilgrimage site." This is something like, in an article about the Pope, mentioning "the Pope's hugely popular, and profitable, pilgrimage site, the Vatican." The bias is so so obvious! One would not call a Christian church "hugely profitable" in an article, at the risk of offending Christian readers, though it may collect hundreds of thousands of dollars every Sunday, but it is just fine to imply that Nepalese Buddhists or Hindus are swindlers. As a matter of fact, I have seen no press reports which suggest that funds contributed spontaneously by "pilgrims" have been misused, and the government has been overseeing them. As a matter of fact, they are now "frozen" by the government, so if Ram Bomjon has been "profitable" to anyone it is the Nepalese government, which has seized the funds contributed devotedly by his followers!

Ram is shown with unkempt hair but looking healthy.

We don't know if the reporter combed his hair that morning.

Committee president Bed Bahadur Lama said Ram left his meditation place 10 days ago because of the noise made by pilgrims.

The circumstances in which seven committee members shot the video two miles from where he meditated were not clear.

Obviously Mr. Bell did not attempt to find out what the circumstances were; nor did he interview anyone who had taken the videos; he has merely read other press reports and reduced them to a few careless sentences. This is typical of the "reporting" about Ram Bomjon.

The organising committee is the principal source for many of the claims. During Ram's 10-month vigil no visitor has seen him eat or drink, but the attraction was closed to non-committee members at night.

The committee has prevented a medical team from conducting an examination of the teenager.

What is so peculiar to me is that anyone would expect that religious people would want a medical team to examine their spiritual leader. Suppose a reporter went into a charismatic Christian church: Would he insist that a medical team come into the church and examine the heartbeats, breathing, and electromagnetic fields of those who are speaking in tongues or praying with uplifted hands? No, but if the spiritual individual is a Buddhist bhikku sitting under a tree he ought to subject himself to such intrusion into his meditation and his own body. Really? Who said so?

Santaraj Subedi, the chief official in the district, said yesterday that the bank account that he had insisted the committee open had been frozen after Ram's disappearance. It contained more than £500,000.

In other words, one might say, the government has stolen the money contributed sincerely by those who wanted it to go for the support of Ram Bomjon and those who were helping him.

Mr Subedi is urgently trying to track down Ram.

If this were in order to find out what Ram wants him to do with the money, honestly and sincerely, wonderful. But we don't know, and this is just one more example of the shoddy reporting on this story.

Wikipedia has done the best job of anyone at putting together a readable, fair, and documented report on Ram Bomjon. Not knowing their names, I commend those who have contributed their time so responsibly. Hugh Higgins 10:33, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I see that you too (if you are not also the anonymous user listed above) do not understand the NPOV policy. I understand that you've only been here since March 11. —Viriditas | Talk 10:19, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reappearance

The "Buddha Boy" has reappeared. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061225/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_nepal_boy Now edit this article with the new information provided. Knight45 12:35, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


"Reincarnation of Lord Buddha". *sigh*..... Well, we have to properly incorporate this now. cool. Zazaban 23:29, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Zazaban's immediate take, this story is doubly messed up by vague reporting and vague translation. It's unclear whether Bomjon remained at his meditations spot after a flood of visitors came. I've summarized the most obvious facts cautiously. Ashibaka (tock) 23:35, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
the story is quite amazing. Any more information on his childhood and motivation? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.213.198.142 (talk) 12:16, 17 March 2007 (UTC).
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../r/a/m/Talk%7ERam_Bahadur_Bomjon_22f0.html"