Talk:Ralf und Florian

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I would say the translation "In Düsseldorf on the Rhine, it sounds quickly" is rather faulty. "Bald" doesn't so much translate as "quickly", but as "soon". A translation could be: "In Düsseldorf on the Rhine, it soon will sound" as this probably covers the context as well as the proper translation. "the sound gets around" is a bit misleading as well as it focusses too much on "sound". It's just a wordplay. The context is that the "word" will get around. "Im Düsseldorf am Rhein, klingt es bald!" where "klingt" might refer to the newly build "Kling Klang" studio.

"It will soon sound" is not a good translation, because no native English speaker would ever construct such a phrase. The word "sound" is never used as a verb in such a way. A bell or a broadcast might be said to "ring out" over a city, but not to "sound out" - to "sound something out" means to investigate something, to guage opinion. Kling Klang studio was not given its name until c.1976, so the phrase can't refer to it specifically.--feline1 09:32, 14 October 2006 (UTC) stasis101 2006-10-14 05:30 GMT+1

Ok, fair enough, but you may have caught my drift concerning the context and wordplay. If the phrase suggests that "soon the word will get around" then what would be a better translation of the whole phrase? One could go as far as suggesting that "In Düsseldorf on the Rhine, the word will soon get around" would cover the contextual meaning, it however loses the wordplay with Klang(sound). Any idea's on how one could translate the phrase and keep the context and wordplay? That the studio wasn't given it's name doesn't mean the name wasn't floating around already, this off course is all just speculation and of trivial interest. --stasis101 20:51, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Song title translations

Are the song title translations in this article accurate? The label on the vinyl record translates "Tongebirge" as "Mountain of Sound," and "Heimatklange" as "The Bells of Home." Perhaps the Wiki translator knows German better than the record distributors, but it might be better to use the titles as they're listed on the record.

Jphillst 01:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I was unaware that Philips had translated the titles on the original vinyl - they're not reproduced on the Germanofon bootleg CDs... translation is not an exact science, but presumeably the Philips translations are "official"?--feline1 11:15, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Unless someone else knows better, I think the English titles should be changed to the ones used on the label. Any disagreements?
I know what you mean about translation not being an "exact science", though. I noticed that on the YouTube link, the German host read the name of the second track as "Klangebirge" instead of "Tongebirge"...so I assume "klange" and "tonge" are very similar terms in German. Jphillst 19:53, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
"Klang" and "Ton" are indeed very similar in meaning, but should be spelled like it is in the beginning of this sentence. The second word is therefore not "Birge" (that word doesn't exist)but "Gebirge" (Plural - Mountains / Mountainrange). The singular would be "Berg". "Klangebirge" is also mis-spelled and should be spelled like "Klanggebirge". The plural of "Klang" is "Klänge" and the plural of "Ton" is "Töne".--stasis101 19:56, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
The album as belatedly issued by Vertigo in US and Canada in 1975 (i.e. after Autobahn had charted) had the titles in German with English translations in smaller text, but the original releases in Germany (Philips, late 1973) and the UK (Vertigo, early 1974) did not. It is possible that the Vertigo translations were provided by Kraftwerk, but equally possible that the US distributors initiated it thinking German-only titles would be too alien for their markets – so the question is to what extent one trusts the American Vertigo translations. I would prefer them over a machine wiki-translation, but a native German speaker might (hopefully) be able to suggest a clearer version of them. I think Kraftwerk's titles from this period sometimes have a playful punning effect, with meanings that can't easily be duplicated by a single English word.
Also remember that at this point Kraftwerk were releasing albums first in Germany with subsequent releases in the UK and other foreign countries a little later, therefore I suggest the German titles should have a degree of prominence over any English titles until the Radio-Activity album (when combined German/English titling became a deliberate feature of their output). The current 'Tongebirge' translation ('Mountain Range of Tones') seems really awkward and if it were just up to me I would put it as something like 'Sonic Peaks'. Ricadus 18:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree, there is a lot of punning in the Kraftwerk titles from this period. This is further compounded by the German language's penchant for compound (ahem) words - English does not form compound nouns to anything like the same extent - thus, yep, case in point, something like "Tongebirge" ends up as a clunky English phease like "A Mountain Range of Tones" when translated literally. "Sonic Peaks" is not a bad stab at coming up with a phrase with the same feel... the rhyming/assonance of "Ruckzuck" and "Kling-Klang", and the infamous "Im Düsseldorf am Rhine, klingst es bald!" are similarly problematic. --feline1 12:20, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the German titles should have prominence; I'm only arguing that the English translations should mirror those used on the actual Vertigo label (if only to make them "official," if nothing else.) "Mountain of Sound" and "The Bells of Home" don't sound too awkward or clunky to me, and they don't affect any use of punning as far as I can tell. Jphillst 19:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I have the US Vertigo LP here at the moment so I could put them in later, perhaps with a brief footnote about the source.

[edit] CD releases

The article says that the album has never been officially released on CD. Are these CDs I found on Amazon.com and Half.com (eBay) official or unofficial?:

— Loadmaster 16:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

There are no official versions available. As a matter of information for those who might care, though - the two versions to look out for are : for sound, a double CD called "Vor Uns Metropolis", which has all 3 of the pre-Autobahn albums, plus bonus material - mastered from vinyl, but excellently done. And for packaging, there is a Germanofon version where they actually did a color reprint of the original comic - something I'd be very surprised to see ever happen with any "official" release, if it ever does happen.

I'd put money on them just being bootlegs, taken from the vinyl record.--feline1 17:28, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Most of those Amazon ones are Marketplace seller's items – basically about as official as what you'd find on eBay. The Warners reference was probably written by the seller and is incorrect. Strictly speaking they are pirate copies rather than bootlegs (Bootlegging is trafficking in recordings that the record companies have not commercially released, whereas piracy is the illegal copying/sale of recordings that are or have been available commercially or are planned/scheduled for future commercial release.). If they don't carry a bar code and an ISBN or an ISMN somewhere on the outer-viewed cover, then they are pirated.
In most countries however, you can sign up your business to be allocated bar codes by the relevant numbering body, doesn't matter whether you're selling records or turnips. The barcode issueing body doesn't check whether your business is legit - so a barcode in itself is no guarentee that the record label legitimately owns the phonographic copyright on the sound recordings, or has paid mechanical royalties on the songs.--feline1 12:16, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
One of those items is using my old wikipedia scan of the UK back cover! Grrrrr. I just appended "[pirated recording]" to the title of one of the Amazon CDs, using their "update product info" facility. We'll see if it gets through or if Amazon sides with the pirates. Ricadus 19:50, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
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