Talk:Rage Against the Machine

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Contents

[edit] Genre

Regardeing the genre: Whether you like it or not, RATM was one of the major pioneers of rapcore and they did fuse rap, rock and metal elements. Calling them "rock" is not specific, Rapcore is the genre they pioneered and most of their music was as well. It clearly says ont he front page they were noted for blending those 3 genres. Please, whoever is, stop changing the genre. RAPCORE is the best term for it (which covers Rap / Alternative Rock & Metal)

RAGE ISN'T RAP AT ALL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it's Hard Rock

-rage isn;t RAP, but RAPCORE (metal/rock/hardcore with hip hop elements).


.....core this core that.... The terms rapcore and nu-metal didn't even exist back in 1991 when rage began performing their early work, so what was it called then? I can positively say ratm would never acknowledge the term rapcore as a descriptive label for their music as it is synonymous to all the other 'cores' out there - over used and ill defined. have a quick read of the rapcore page to see what I mean. To say they were a hybrid of the 3 genres would be more justifiable.


- If the genre existed or not isn't really relevant. You can say that they invented the genre. But they aren't metal at all, according to Encyclopaedia Metallum, and most sane people.--193.90.59.237 17:19, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

This article seems to completely erase the huge infuence the band "URBAN DANCE SQUAD" had on RATM.

[edit] live & rare unofficial

The album "Live & Rare" is not an official album.

Actually, it was a Japanese import that was comprised of bootlegs. I am not sure if Rage agreed to its sale, but it was published by Sony so I'm certain it's legit. 12.77.119.31 01:41, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] removal of link to indymind.de

Whats the problem with linking to indymind.de? Its the only german community, its the official forum of ratm.de and will come up with a new wiki with rage content in the new year. so please let the link stay...

[edit] rewording

I wouldn't say the original version of the article contains any opinion; it's all incontrovertible fact (it's hard to deny their politics were both articulate and outspoken, and this isn't a comment on the "quality" or "correctness" of those politics). I leave the new stuff in, however, because it's useful information. I'm not sure about "hard left", however, I don't much like it as a term, and it's dangerous when left undefined. This is mostly a personal rant about the inadequacies of the "left wing / right wing" distinction, however. Would you agree with "radical" politics? /me goes to read the recent modifications to the article on radicalism to find out... --AW

Mysterious Fellow Editor, you happy with all this now? --AW

Oooh, I get to be "mysterious". :) If I say "Henry Kissinger is articulate and outspoken" I'm expressing my opinion, not stating a fact. While I, personally, agree that RATM was outspoken and articulate the encyclopedia is supposed to have a Neutral Point of View and only state really solid facts (like who the members are, how many records they sold). Anything else ought to be attributed to a source. Can't do much harm, anyway. And I agree with you on "hard left", but I couldn't think of a decently concise way of stating it. I wanted to give a general idea of their political views, but I didn't know what to use. Meh.
I (respectfully) disagree with regards to this particular instance. I think there's a bit of a blurry boundary between things that are absolutely technically "factual" and things that are probably technically "assertions" but which are so clearly true that there can't be any reason for not considering them factual. I simply cannot conceive of *any* possible standard for "outspoken" or "articulate" under which RAtM's politics wouldn't qualify; can you demonstrate the existence of such a thing? Facts are slippery things; I mean, you say you can happily state as a fact who the members of the band are, or how many records they sold, but even this is tricky. Who were the members of the Beatles? Is Pete Best in there, or not? I'm sure you could get "opinions" going both ways, so should the entry on the Beatles say that "some people believe the members of the band were X" and "some people believe the members of the band were Y"? Just thoughts. Ignore me if i'm wrong. Or even better, demonstrate my wrongness and expose me to ridicule. Don't worry, i'm used to it. =) --AW
BTW, I say mysterious simply because you're not attributing your stuff, either through a tag or through a Wikipedia username... --AW

Heh, I ought to get a login name.

Perhaps my problem is more with "articulate" that with "outspoken". "Articulate" means something like "well-expressed", which is a value judgement. Especially when you're dealing with lyrics, which are a form of poetry.

Anyway, I've made my objection clear and I think we can leave it at that.

As it happens I wasn't referring to lyrics in particular, more the totality of RAtM's approach - they did lots of stuff outside of music directly, participating in protests, making statements, all the stuff on album sleeves, etc. I suppose articulate *is* a value judgment, but it's one I was intending simply to deal with, I suppose, sophistication of language. I see your objection now, i'll see if I can think of a better word to replace articulate. Hmm, OK, i'm gonna rewrite that section a little now. Thanks. --AW
How about "clear"? RAtM's political views are definately clear: all their songs deal with them directly and the members can be said to be politically active. -- Sam

"as well as their vocally ignorant leftist beliefs." What is that supposed to be unbiased language?

[edit] cop killer

Is "cop-killer" a neutral and encyclopedic term? I'd argue it isn't neutral because it implies that murdering "cops" is a more significant crime than murdering other, lesser, beings. And if anyone wants to argue it's encyclopedic, let's hear it. --Sam Francis

Right on!

[edit] The - the

Is it Rage Against the Machine, or Rage Against The Machine?

I know Artist Direct] has it lower case. —BenFrantzDale 15:12, May 12, 2005 (UTC)

Words like 'the' and 'an' etc etc in titles/names/blah are never capitalized.

Well that's an interesting question. Rage Against the Machine is often referred to as RATM, as oppopsed to RAM, which would be grammatically correct. If this is true, the T in "the" should be capitalized. -evrythingsgoingdown

Part of the reason it is reffered to as RATM is becuase RAM is already taken by Random Access Memory, and RAM is itself a word. I personally use RAtM, even though it looks it kind of funny. Chris3145 05:33, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Rage Against the Machine is RATM, end of story.(?)

No, Rage Against the Machine is RAtM because "Words like 'the' and 'an' etc etc in titles/names/blah are never capitalized" ~Christophe —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.85.219.15 (talk) 18:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC).

T is capitalised. I've just looked on the back on the Battle of Mexico City, and it's Rage Against The Machine. havnt checked the other albums but im sure itll be just the same.

[edit] breakup date

Didn't RATM break up earlier than 2003? I could've sworn it was more like 2000 or 2001. - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by dankru (talk • contribs). Rage broke up in 2000. The live album "Live at the Grand Olympic Auditorium" reflects their last live performance, in 2000. The album was released in 2003.

[edit] NYSE

I've searched the NYSE site, and the rest of the web and the incident during the recording of the "Sleep Now in the Fire" is only covered on music/fan/promotional websites. There is no record of the stock exchange closing an hour early - except on Michael Moore's blog [1] - so I'm removing the comment about "dramatic financial consequences". Added attribution for the incident from MTV news - appears to have been the only news network to cover it. Shame because it's a great story :) --Dilaudid 02:00, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

According to the video "At 2:52pm, in the middle of the trading day, the Stock Exchange was forced to close it's doors. No money was harmed".--85.210.58.16 01:30, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I too am interested in the NYSE incident and also haven't found an official news source reporting on it. UK's The Guardian mentions it in an article about Michael Moore [2] and it was also mentioned in a CNN program (transcript [3]) by Michael Moore and Tom Morello. It's in some music news, but it seems unusual that it isn't elsewhere as well. --71.113.225.164 16:17, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

It did happen, the stock exchange did close early for the first and only time in its history, Rage made in close, Michael Moore got arrested (can't remember why) and when security saw Rage coming, someone hit the alarm for some reason causing iron gates to drop on the entrances. There is probably no record because they were too embarassed and don't want people to know. -- SOADJPenator

It probably wasn't reported as an attempt to hide that it even happened and to keep other bands from trying to copy them. ~ Black Man #17

[edit] Zack's solo cd

Does anyone know where the info for Zack's solo CD release date came from? I've googled it and gotten nothing. If it's legit then awesome... but I don't want to get my hopes up.

[edit] rap metal or nu metal

Describing rage as rap metal or nu metal isn't informative unless either the term is defined, or the reader clicks the link and reads about the genre. I think Rage fits into both genres just fine, and the nu metal article is much more informative, so I think that in the intro paragraph, the link should be nu metal. Smmurphy 19:16, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Theres no waythey are nu metal, as they came on to the scene way before that term was used. They Funk MEtal at best but they really dont have a style as theres is not one other band who sounds remotley like them (correct me if I'm wrong as there may be some obscure group ive never hear, in which case im sorry).

I personallly think that Rage Against The Machine is rap metal at 75% (vocals) and funk metal at 25% (rhythms). They cannot be classified as nu metal for two main reasons: their career has begun prior to the nu metal breakthrough, and this genre doesn't have only hip hop influences. Egr, 15/5/2006

RATM were by no doubt a massive influence on Nu Metal, but they're not part of the genre. Because its hard to put in them in a specific genre, i think Alt. Metal is the best to describe them, as well as Rap metal. They are metal, its clear from listening to their earlier material.

Too funky for metal, too metal for funk. Hard to say which they are. Anyhow, they're not Nu-Metal as they're missing a number of hallmarks of the Nu-Metal genre; RAtM have guitar solos, however unconventional; they don't down tune (they drop-tune - and even then not on all songs - which is slightly different from downtuning); while they're lyrics could certainly be described as angtsy they're not 'Nu-Metal' angtsy. I would personally describe them as a Hip-Hop/Alt. Rock amalgam.

Alt. Metal

They play in the punk-derived alternative music tradition, so they're alternative rock. They combine alternative rock songwriting with metal's "heavy"/"hard" aggression, so they're alternative metal. They fuse funk into their style of alternative metal, so they're funk metal. They combine rock and rap, so they're rapcore. ~Switch t c g 06:24, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photos?

Anyone have photos of rage in public domain or GNUFD from all the Wiki's?. --Oscar 23:44, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] To the person asking for Zacks solo album

I've heard that hes gonna release it Dec 31, 2005, or sometime around that. I heard it from second-hand sources as well. Is that the same date that you've heard as well?

[edit] Restore older version of page

The version of the page I corrected was horribly POV and grossly unencyclopedic. Versions prior to mid-November are more neutral, and I would suggest that a version of the page from that time be restored. WesleyDodds 04:23, 20 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Music videos?

can someone cite their sources for the music videos, because i could not find them after searching the web. by music video, do you mean tape performance on dvd, or actual music video like they would show on MTV or something else?

try yahoo music

Or YouTube, they have pretty much every music video by almost every artist. (Blastdude 20:39, 20 May 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Raging Within the Machine

I am all about Rage's music, but when someone (Zach) is so outspoken about his views, yet "owns" the name "Rage Against the Machine", I find it...hmm. Weak. BTW, I could not find anything that definitively proved that, but I found several sites that said it without reference. I love the art that artists like Rage and Tool and many other bands give us, but we should not elevate these artists to superhuman status like the drooling masses do with the Hollywood douche bags. Enjoy the art, but don't lose your ideas to someone else's. IMO.

Actually, Zack left the band prior to their breakup, so he's the only member not to own part of the name and merch - Morello is just as vocal as Zack, and he does own part of the band. And the phrase isn't copyrighted, if that's your implication - just its use in reference to the band.
"Actually, Zack left the band prior to their breakup" isn't this kind of a paradox, since the rest of the band are together, and the "breakup" of the band was Zack leaving?Jackpot Den 19:27, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
no seeing as they stayed together a played with other peple for a while before compeletley qutting

ummm, they didn't quit, they simply got Chris Cornell from Soundgarden and made Audioslave. they didn't break up technically, just switched singers and changed the name. -- SOADJPenator

^^Which qualifies as a break-up. Audioslave are emphatically NOT RAtM, hence the description of the recent reunion as a 'reunion', rather than a 'restoration of the old line-up' or some such phrase.

[edit] burn yourself alive

i have a RATM album called burn yourself alive, which i wasn't sure if it was even for real, but found out it appears in both CDDB and freedb and on the net. i think it sould be added. any comments in the subject? --UVnet 03:23, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

seems to be an inofficial concert bootleg. it can be downloaded at ratm.de like several others (legally?). they list the album as "BURNING YOURSELF ALIVE 1-13 various dates in europe, 14 Mark Goodier sessions around 1993". i don't think the album deservses special mentioning, or do i miss s.th.?--Johnnyw 03:56, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What about the contribution to the Crow soundtrack?

Where should "Darkness" fit in to the discography? Not a RATM album obviously, not a single (that I know of). Always seems like this is a forgotten song of sorts..."Killing in the Name"'s page lists its inclusion as an "unreleased track" in 1999, for example. Tarc 04:08, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

It appears on Live & Rare, so there's not really a problem. It's listed. Their other unreleased tracks, like the untitled Tool collaboration colloquially known as "(You Can't Kill the) Revolution", which was never heard except as an unfinished leaked track, and their unrecorded covers (eg. "Clampdown", The Clash), are more problematic, but as they never saw the light of day

I guess they're not noteworthy. --Switch 12:29, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Clear channel ban?

Hey, was wondering what the source was for Clear Channel banning Rage? I'm not surprised, and don't doubt it in the least, but I would a source so I can add some ammunition to some of my arguments in other fields, :). Ecopirate 22:31, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I googled for '"rage against the machine" "clear channel" -wikipedia' and got
"After Sept. 11, to the amusement/horror of music critics and radio industry professionals, Clear Channel issued a list of 150 songs to its member stations that it deemed too sensitive to play in the wake of the terrorist attacks. The list included an odd mix of songs: the more understandable choices featured flight references ("Bennie and the Jets," "Ticket to Ride"); others were associated with New York ("On Broadway"); and, most surprisingly, many were related to peace ("Bridge Over Troubled Water," "Imagine"). The list also included all songs by the political rock group Rage Against the Machine. Clear Channel had, overnight, become the new arbiter on music-to-grieve-by." right here --Johnnyw 04:23, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
My gratitude, good sir. Ecopirate 06:56, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flem

Someone who reads flem regularly should post a point where the "testify" event happens Jackpot Den 19:28, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

http://www.flemcomics.com/d/20020916.html does this count as one, and how can i put it on? Jackpot Den 23:59, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Imperial March

Imperial March (Rage) is not by RATM, is by Dave Levison. Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_March

[edit] merge vietnow

Propose: Merge Vietnow with Rage against the machine. it doesn't deserve its own page. Slasher600 03:13, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

If thats the case, why not merge all albums or singles released to the pages of the artists

No, it's a single by the band, it should have it's own page. There is no need in merging it.

[edit] ==

"Australian Comedian John Safran has a refrence to RATM at the begining of his program Music Jamboree joking about how they took the lyrics "Fuck you I won't do what you tell me." out of their song "Killing In The Name" because the record company told them to."

WAA!? The lyrics "Fuck you i won't do what you tell me" are in the album version, only the radio edit skips out that bit (for obvious reasons). I'll add a note as this John Safran guy annoys me and i've never heard of him.

[edit] ==

Small note for the references section...it's small, but in the TV show Danny Phantom, Danny refers to a local arcade in the series as "Raging Against a Machine". Should that be added???? p.s. i stink at editing actual articles so would anyone be willing to do it???? thanks... Aelita the Angel 3:51 pm May 13, 2006

[edit] got rid of the nudity

we can talk 'bout it in simple next, no need to look at one's penis, OKAY?

Wikipedia is not censored for children. The impact of the protest is largely lost without the image, and the description does not convey the event very well. Sorry, but I'm reverting. --Switch 05:09, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

^^^^^^^ The purpose of this wikipedia entry is NOT TO REPRODUCE OR EMULATE the effect of the protest, but to provide an encyclopedic overview of RATM, simply saying they are outspoken, and listing this protest as an example is enough. - Mariokarter


just blur the nads

I agree, Someone should do that

The picture could also be linked to, because it is not very safe for work.

Someone took down the picture again. Put it back up. If they think nudity is in violation of the policy, look up vulva. Fucking up close shots of pussy.

Well said, this is almost like saying it's ok to see lesbians kissing but not gay men. I don't exactly want to see it, although I don't really care, I just turn off images on firefox whenever I know someone would see the page. The point is, Wikipedia is clearly not censored, as defined by the rules, and the picture is very useful in providing the proper impact. There's no reason a penis needs to be considered taboo.

I expect to see or possibly see some NSFW material when searching vulva. I dont expect it when searching a band. Its not a matter of censorship its a matter of it adding nothing to the article.

It does add to the article. Without the image, the impact of their protest is lost. It's like changing the Weather Underground article to simply say "A riot took place". It's not informative, and it isn't representative of the events as they happened. --Switch 08:37, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


It is somewhat ironic that this discussion exist. You see, Rage Against the Machine is a band with many views. However, one of their most prominant vendettas, is one against censorship. And what some of you are suggesting, is censoring this page. If you have any respect for this band, and what they tried to accomplish, the very least you can do is give the public the un-censored, un-polished truth. I cannot think of a worse insult to these people, than censoring their own journey. I am ashamed of some of you... --Mike

I love you Mike. Well said. WarringSerenity 19:34, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm against censorship, but that doesn't mean I'm going to go around posting pictures of penises in places where they're in no way relevant.

That's not a picture of penises. It's a picture of the band members nude at a protest that gained a great deal of coverage in the press.
I think it should just be linked to, like someone suggested earlier

One thing that many RATM fans and some of the people on this board seem to forget is that "censorship" and "self-control" are different things. Having the freedom to do something doesn't mean that I have to do it just to prove I can. So while the image is not technically against wikipedia policy I think it's extremely bad taste to have it up there (at least in its current form). There you go - I'm a capitalist pig.

I don't believe those from RATM would care much whether wikipedia censored the images of their tiny penises waving in the cold. Their contempt for censorship is well known and, if we are going to be objective about this article, we shouldn't have to consider morals and "the legacy of their fight against censorship" at all. Not knowing the rules and their technicalities well enough I wouldn't say whether to blur/remove the image, but keeping it there in order to "pay respect" to Rage would simply be silly. There are many types of censorship. The Car 05:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Censorship is censorship, whatever form it takes. Ask yourselves; would you object to a photo that didn't 'add' to an article if it didn't contain nudity? And to Mike: Well said, man! 86.1.99.205 22:36, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


What struck me about that section is not the nudity but that supposedly some members, no pun intended, of the band are so self conscious about their penises that they fall into that propaganda about size to the point that they think it necessary to justify their size in that picture as being the result of the cold. I thought RATM were better people and would be more concerned about the content and substance of their brains and message than about physical appearance or penis size. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.180.21.112 (talk) 11:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

How about a "NSFW" warning prior to linking to page?

I'm fairly sure that Wikipedia is not censored anyway. If the picture offends you, that's your issue. --Steve Farrell 17:49, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

What reason is there to include them and there little cocks naked? Writing about the event is enough, the visualization is redundent and offensive. Where is the self control? Just because Wikipedia isn't censored doesnt mean we should include it. I don't see a picture of Paris hilton or kim kardasian giving fellatio on there pages. Manic Hispanic 06:55, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

If that were the point, we would have to get rid of every nude picture on Wikipedia. As far as including nude pictures goes, this is indeed encyclopedic, far more so then many other nude pictures on this site - it shows the protest in action; as that is what it is - a protest. And it is irrelevant that it is offensive. The "Nigger" article is offensive to thousands, I've seen people blank it because it's "offensice", but in both cases it doesn't matter - becausae they are encyclopedic and they stay. ≈ The Haunted Angel //The Forest Whispers My Name// 09:49, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] politics

Did RATM ever formally articulate their political beliefs (like in liner notes, or on their website)? did they name a specific ideology e.g. anarcho-syndicalism? heqs 06:07, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

No, but the reading list they distributed (still available on the Rage Against the Machine DVD) included What is Communist Anarchism?, so it's fairly certain that as a group they were some form of libertarian socialists. Morello described himself as "a socialist". Zack's history with punk rock suggest he might be an anarchist, but that's largely going on stereotypes. --Switch 15:19, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Call me crazy, but the title of the book strikes me as espousing communist anarchism moreso than libertarian socialism. heqs 06:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, I dare say it is. As communist anarchism is a form of libertarian socialism, I think my statement is still a safe bet. --Switch 04:56, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] origin of the name

I looked for a citation for the reference to a speech by Karl Marx, but I couldn't find a speech in which he told workers to "rage against the machine", though there's a a chapter in "Das Kapital" that sounds like he might have said something like that. The edit that added the reference to Marx is the only edit by an anonymous user.

I'm also wondering whether, even if the Marx reference is correct, the name might also be a reference to Mario Savio's seminal "machine" speech in Sproul Plaza, the video of which certainly brings to mind "rage against the machine".

Does anyone have reliable information on the origin of the name? If not, perhaps there should just be a list of things that the name *might* refer to. Joriki 14:47, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I guess some translations of Marx's work might include that phrase, but obviously not all. Someone ought to find a translation which does use that phrase, and reference it accordingly. Until then it should probably be removed, unless a suitable statement by a band member can be found. 86.1.99.205 22:38, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

anybody who would care to research the subject would find out that "Rage Against the Machine" was going to be the name of Inside Out's second album (Inside Out was the Hardcore band that Zack was in before rage).69.218.199.100 09:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I removed the claim

that "Rage Against the Machine" is a phrase that Marx used in a speech. Couldn't find it at marxists.org or the MarX-Files; I guess it depends on translation, but it sounds a little fanciful to me, and it doesn't appear in these searches through all his writings and speeches. 151.204.61.230 14:26, 11 July 2006 (UTC) (unsigned in User:Kane5187)


Note: rage against the machine was a term originally coined by the British rebelious fractions called the ludites who destroyed factory machines during the industrial revolution in an attempt to get their jobs back. (before Marx did)

[edit] Bill Hicks

can someone backup the thing about bill hicks at his last performance shouting "fuck you i wont do what you tell me"?

66.41.59.162 22:08, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't know that he shouted it at his final performance, but I do know that one of his CDs ends with Killing In The Name playing over the PA (he frequently ended performances by having a song played over the PA, usually something by Jimi Hendrix). - Ecksem Diem 17:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zapata's Blood

In the DVD's section, under The Battle of Mexico City, it claims that Zapata's Blood is a cover. This doesn't seem very likely, since Rage was extremely supportive of the Zapatista movement, which the song is about, and I have yet to see another band who openly supports them. If it is a cover, could somebody please tell me who wrote it? (and if it isn't, somebody please change it and say it isn't a cover) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 156.34.220.69 (talk • contribs) .

Acutally, allmusic.com credits the song to De la Rocha and RATM, so I changed it.. --Johnnyw talk 19:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References in popular culture

Half of the references that are supposedly a nod to the band don't give off any notification as to why they are a reference to the band or just a reference to the phrase. The list needs to be revised. --- Xephyrwing 17:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] band members naked.

I am a fan of RATM, but i got a shock when i saw the pic of them naked on wikipedia. Can we please change the picture to something more tasteful ? Its quite a shock to see it. andrewkeith80 01:52, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

No offense, but if you find "shocking" the appearance of a naked man (or four), you have a problem. --Taraborn 23:52, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
It wasn't some publicity stunt. In the words of Jose Marti - 'doing, is the best way of saying'.

If you find it quite a shock to see it, then why are you a fan of a band who's songs have lyrics such as FUCK YOU I WON'T DO WHAT YOU TELL me repeated 16 times. Now if that's not shocking then I don't know what is. And noone said you had to click on it. Just skip past it when you read this article.

"Fuck" is auditory, four naked men is visual. There is a difference. This problem can easily be solved by making a link to the picture, seeming some want to take it down, and others want to leave it up. That way, those who want to see four naked men can click on the link, and those who just want to read about their political beliefs don't have to wonder what those behind him/her are thinking. I would do this myself, but I am not fluent with wiki coding. Lovok 18:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Also, in case the previous arguments come into play, an encyclopedia is not a place to make statements, it is a place to document them. We do not need to feel the impact, but we are entitled to know to what extent it hit. Lovok 18:44, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
That very picture was published in Rolling Stone magazine. They didn't publish the picture because they felt their readers wanted to see four naked men, but because the picture illustrates the text. Rolling Stone is not Playgirl magazine. The picture is used in this article for the same reason. However, unlike Rolling Stone, Wikipedia is not censored and so the picture can be depicted without black boxes over the genitals.
It is perhaps revealing that all anyone opposed to this picture can fixate on is the penis. If Wikipedia isn't a place for making a statement, then it is equally not a place to try to impose one's dislike of the depiction of the penis on to others. (Click on the link to the penis article and see that the penis is displayed in many different states.) The picture is not pornographic or sexual in any context.
There is more on display in that picture than the penis. These guys were not standing there fully clothed with their pants unzipped and their genitals hanging out. They were completely nude. It's called a nude protest.
Less talk more walk. If it's going to be changed, someone change it.
It has been changed. Repeatedly. And, in accordance with proper procedure, it has been reverted every time. The image will not be removed because a few prudes dislike having the chance to look at a penis when they're reading about an angry anarchist rock band who were almost stopped from performing in various cities due to their provocativeness. --Switch 12:15, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
This is an honest question. Where does it say children are not allowed on wikipedia?
Nowhere. However, it is clearly stated that wikipedia is not censored for children's benefit, as the content disclaimer says: Wikipedia contains many different images, some of which are considered objectionable or offensive by some readers. For example, some articles contain graphical depictions of violence, or depictions of human anatomy. --Switch 12:15, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Children don't have penises?

I'm fairly sure I did. --Switch 12:15, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

In this circumstance, we should exercise prudence. Wikipedia is not censored and the image is directly relevant to the content of the article, and its inclusion is therefore appropriate. I am a little hesitant for everything to be immediately visible, as many of those visiting the page are not familiar with the protest and may find the image a bit of a shocker (especially those visiting Wikipedia in a public setting or at work). A sensible blurred image with a link on its page to an unmodified version seems a reasonable compromise. BAKirken 06:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there's any allowance in Wikipedia policy for blurring an image because it's "a bit of a shocker". If the reality is relevant, we should depict the reality.
Look, this is a band that's famous for shouting over and over, "Fuck you I won't do you what you tell me." Yet people reading about this band are going to be shocked by seeing images of penises that are what, five pixels long? The continuing hubbub over this question makes me think what a brilliant protest this was. Nareek 13:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Eh...you know guys, high schoolers at some times may be asked to do research on some sort of politics or censorship. Let's say their paths cross into...yes, Rage's music. Now, what would the school do to our poor student trying to get a good grade when he attempts to get some info or find some basic info about Rage based on wiki? Why, the school finds out about him looking at a naked picture and *gasps* suspends him. It's best to remove the picture. Maplejet 21:00, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
No, it isn't. Wikipedia is not designed for high school students. Wikipedia is not a directory. Wikipedia is not censored. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia. ~Switch t c g 01:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Meh....I tend to agree that the image isn't doing enough good to justify its inclusion. I've been known to browse Wikipedia at work (actually, pretty much the only time I do it), and that sort of image really isn't what you want showing up in your cache. I've seen a grown man naked. I can certainly imagine how terribly shocking it would be for four men to crudely paint their chests and stand around not playing music on a big stage at a concert. Let's remember that we're not here to further any political message that the band might have had, but just to report on it. An understanding of the facts of the incident does not require an intimate understanding of what Zach de la Rocha looks like without pants.Cool moe dee 345 14:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
We shouldn't even have to argue its merit; this is Wikipedia. The rules are clear. If you're worried about what's in your cache, then don't browse a site that is openly not censored - or, better, delete the image from your cache (I don't know what network your company uses, but it's probably quite easy). The image was reproduced in Rolling Stone, shown on MTV, it's been everywhere. It's likely the most important image of them we have. This is not even an issue. ~Switch t c g 17:42, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I'd have to agree with switch, the photograph illustrates the protest better than text would. If you're worried about the image in your cache at work, you probably shouldn't be browsing wikipedia at work. It's interesting to note that they were protesting censorship for the sake of "the children", which is part of the rationale for removing it now. maxcap 20:48, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Not at all. I think you're mistaking the Helen Lovejoy Motivation ("won't somebody PLEASE think of the CHILDREN!!??") with a simple argument from common decency. Most folks aren't interested in looking at undressed people unless there is a very good reason. I'm not concerned about protecting or not protecting children, but rather with the fact that the picture, so far as I can tell, adds absolutely nothing to a wholly verbal description of the event. It's very difficult, of course, to establish that at this point, since it's sitting there right in front of us, but think about it this way--would you include, were they available, images of George Michael's genitals in his article? Or what about pictures of Michael Jackson's penis? They're both at least ostensibly famous, in some part, for things involving their genitalia. The central question for me is still whether actually SEEING naked people in any way enhances my understanding of what four naked men standing on a stage would signify. You don't have the crowd in the shot reacting to it, so you're not capturing the impact of the event in any literal sense. The only defense you can mount for the picture, if challenged, is that it allows the reader to experience the event for himself. That seems pretty weak to me. I just don't understand how the image provides a benefit commensurate to the inconvenience of having to mount this occasional (but apparently repeated) defense for what is essentially a trivial picture illustrating an event that doesn't rise to the peak of my imagination when I think of "Things That Define Rage Against the Machine."Cool moe dee 345 17:08, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
This is still not an issue. Wikipedia is not governed by "common decency" or anything of the sort. There is no argument to be had here. As said above, this is not a public forum for you to force your dislike of the depiction of the penis onto others. If you think that tha is not a major event in the band's career, you can try to have the entire section removed - but, as it is around the most famous event in their career, you'll have a hard time with that. ~Switch t c g 22:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I still don't see what's wrong with showing the human body as it is to children. I really don't find it any more "offensive" -whatever that means- than, say, going to the zoo and seeing naked animals. Except, maybe, because of conservative, irrational taboos imposed eras ago. Also, showing the members of the band protesting naked makes a statement about their attitude towards society rules. Christophe Lasserre 18:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unreleased and Remixed

Does anybody know anything about the Rage album "Unreleased and Remixed"? I have the album and I would like to know more about it.


It's not an actual album released by rage. It's basically a fan's collection of stuff he/she found etc. --adam


[edit] Possible reunion

anyone seen this? http://www.cosmicdynamo.com/zdlrnet/ It mentions a RATM reunion but the link doesn't work... Interesting..

The link just showed Tom and Zach posing with some fan, and both of them were smiling. That's all.

Looks like an empty or outdated fansite looking for some fake attention. Not one of the links on the site works. The Car 08:11, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


Hi, my english is to poor to edit the article but there will be a reunion

http://metromix.chicagotribune.com/news/celebrity/la-et-coachella22jan22,0,6222675.story?coll=mmx-home_bottom_hedsh2o

yeah its ont here offical site, there going to headline at Coachella - Jestabobo

[edit] Not Broke Up

Ok, that one colum "Zack de la Rocha's Departure", someone keeps changing it to "break up". it can only be considered as a breakup if all the members part ways. zack was the only one who left. tom tim and brad are still together. stop changing it to a break up. they didnt break up. zack was the only one who left.

The band "Rage Against the Machine" doesn't exist any more. That's why this article is separate from the Audioslave article. --Switch 11:01, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
They broke up. The band was no longer in one piece and it no longer exists.

[edit] Loss Of Info?

Um, why is it that nearly half the article is completely gone? I visited this article a few days ago, and everything was there. Now someone removed half of it. I can't retrieve the info, so could someone else put it back up?

[edit] Guitar Hero II

I have changed the statement that says that Killing in the Name is rumoured to be in Guitar Hero II.
It has now been confirmed to be in the game.
74.234.10.23 23:59, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit war

Could we discuss what genres Rage should be put in--preferably with reference to some source outside our own instinctive knowledge of musical genres--rather than edit warring? Nareek 12:46, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Political Beliefs

Everything under "political beliefs" is chronologically completely mixed up. Is there a particular reason why it is so? TommyStardust 18:16, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know. Some of it seems to be detailing their beliefs with evidence from things they said at different times, but after that it also lists some different examples of their political activity with no particular order. Anyone is welcome to rewrite the section to put it in a better chronological order, but please try not to confuse the parts not relating to a specific event.
In any case, I've moved the "political beliefs" subsection out of the "early years" section, renamed "early years" to "history" as it contains their entire history as RATM, and moved "political beliefs" to the top of the article as it's more important to their identity. --Switch 10:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Two reference sections?

I am not sure why there were two reference sections. One was in the middle of the article. I combined the two at the bottom. – Heaven's Wrath Talk 02:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Funk

If you google "Rage Against the Machine" and "funk", you don't find many references to funk as an influence or a genre that the band was part of. Mostly you get hits relating to "Renegades of Funk", which was not a song that they wrote. Without some supporting evidence in terms of sources, I would get the funk out of there. Nareek 15:02, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

There are 670,000 results for "rage against the machine" "funk" -"renegades of funk", which I would say is many. There are a few lyrics pages and two misspells of "Renegades", but most results on the first four pages are genre descriptions, and it probably goes further. As for proper publications, Melody Maker described them as "screaming funk-bone hardcore and agit-rock" - 1st January, 1994, pg77.
There's also their respects to Parliament-Funkadelic and Sly & the Family Stone (including their images being shown in the video for "Renegades of Funk"), and, well, their allover sound. They definitely adopted "syncopated rhythms, thick bass line, ... prominent percussion, ... danceability, ... strong jazz influences". --Switch 09:24, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

And in Audioslave they cover Funkadelic's 'Super Stupid' live, showing a continuing respect to Funk.

This issue is completely settled now... Brad Wilk told Modern Drummer in 2002 that Rage were influenced by funk in this interview. ~Switch t c g 04:07, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Single information

Before it was converted into a table, the singles had additional information in the "Singles" section, about soundtrack appearances and the like. Is it possible for someone who knows more about the code to add another column for that kind of information to the table? -Switch 03:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Done. -Switch 05:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Revolutionary socialist"

I was bold and changed the intro from "leftist beliefs" to "revolutionary socialist beliefs". I think it's pretty hard to contend that they were not revolutionary socialists in some sense of the word, whether it's left communism or anarchism or anything else. Feel free to revert and start up a debate though, if you disagree or think the less specific term is better. -Switch t 11:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reunion Confirmation

http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003535501 Doc Strange 13:48, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

  • yes they're getting back together
Is this just a one time gig? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.180.21.112 (talk) 11:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC).
Depends on who you listen to. Billboard says no, but Kerrang! supposedly disagree.

its awesome news. i only found out today. duno where ive been for the past month, but i havnt heard of the festival they're playing at cos im from the UK. It would be awesome if RATM could exist alongside Audioslave, although I do prefer RATM more. 88.110.66.175 15:44, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, Audioslave broke up, so it might be Rage all the way now. Or maybe not... only time will tell.
But has anyone else noticed that the likelihood of a permanent reunion has been increasing in recent weeks? There were rumours Cornell was not doing well in Audioslave. Then there was a rumour of a one-off Rage reunion. Then, a confirmation. Then Morello said he's open to more shows. Then Kerrang! reported more shows had been planned. Then Audioslave break up... ~Switch t c g 06:27, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kerrang!

Anyone here read Kerrang!? RATM's reunion is the cover story for this month, and if anyone could cite the claims currently in the article, that would be good. ~Switch t 03:46, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citing Sources

I know it's vague and arbitrary, but I'm hoping for this article to be good enough for a GA nom by the time of the reunion concert. To that effect, I've just cited a whole lot of stuff, and removed some uncited stuff. There's still some stuff in there - like a quote or two from Tom Morello, and Brad Wilk's Modern Drummer interview - that still needs citing though. The major change was an overhaul of the section on Zack's solo career. Anyway, lend a hand if you get the time. Once it's well cited, we can rebuild it into a better layout and go about that GA nom. ~Switch t c g 04:13, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism and protection

In light of recent vandalism, I have requested this page be semi-protected.Skomorokh 20:23, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Album release gaps

Does anybody know why it there was a 4 year gap in between Rage Against the Machine and Evil Empire? It seems like it should be mentioned. 75pickup (talk • contribs) 03:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I read in an interview with Tom that Zack used to get writer's block.

Great, now can you find out where the interview was conducted so we can put it in the article? 75pickup (talk • contribs) 75pickup 22:52, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tire Me

does anyone else think there should be a page for tire me? i mean they won a grammy for it....

It has an article, and it's linked now. It wasn't before because it was in the Discography section before that was spun off. When that section was spun off, the sings below weren't linked. They have been now. ~Switch t c g 07:36, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Live at the Grand Olympic Auditorium

Can the information for the album, "Live at the Grand Olympic Auditorium" be put on here? Seeing as it was published by Sony back in 2003. (November 21, to be exact). Jeddeh 19:54, 4 March 2007 (UTC)Jeddeh

A live album titled Live at the Grand Olympic Auditorium, an edited recording of their last concerts on September 12 and 13, 2000 at the Grand Olympic Auditorium in Los Angeles, was released in 2003. It was accompanied by an expanded DVD release of the September 13 show, and also included the previously unreleased music video for "Bombtrack".

~Switch t c g 05:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

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