Talk:Races of Final Fantasy

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Contents

[edit] ESPERS ARE A RACE!!!

They are in fact a race, as I was playing the game and I checked the 2nd page of someone's information in the bestiary, it was "sage advice" or something like that it talked of them as a race or at least a group of monsters and how they angered the gods and it kept going on and I don't remember the rest, but they are a race. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.188.116.65 (talk • contribs) .

It would be nice if you would abstain from using caps. WE'RE NOT DEAF, YOU KNOW. just for that, i'm refusing your notion of espers as a race, and instead regard someone else's opinion instead. now that i've read the entry on how they tried to wage war or something, the espers seem to qualify as a race, as they were intelligent enough to do so. anyone else has an opinion? 私はBluerfnです 16:38, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Well the fact is that if are hearing the words on the computer screen, there might be a problem, so.....yeah it doesn't matter that your not deaf, and how are you refusing my notion if it's the same as someone elses, just based on different facts?

Ever heard of netiquette? Sign your posts 私はBluerfnです 19:53, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FFXII Updates=

I just added some information to the Bangaa, Cactuar, and Esper sections as they lacked the most recent information from Final Fantasy XII. Hope a did a good job. =)

IMO, I understand that Espers in FFVI is a race whereas in FFXII is just an ordinary summon. I rather think that information goes somewhere else. 私はBluerfnです 04:14, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

good point, i agree, ill get rid of that if it's still there

Let's put it back when there's enough information about Espers as a race in FFXII. I'm starting to see them in a different light now (more than just an ordinary summon) 私はBluerfnです 19:57, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Ordinary summon, end of story. 私はBluerfnです 04:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps Espers, Aeons, GFs, Eidolons, and summons of any kind should be on a seperate page "Final Fantasy Summons" and not in either Races or Bestiary? --Daedalus 21:45, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

That sounds good to me. They certainly have enough information for a page, and while some of them fit here, not all of them do, and I think they should all be together. Ravenwolf Zero 19:25, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Humes in FFX also ? Al Bhed is not a race

Regular Humans appear all over FFX and FFX-2 but are not named. The Al Bhed are more of an ethnicity of humans, although they do have distinctive pupils and irises. Can we asume the humans of FFX / X2 are Humes or should we create a section just for them ? Renmiri 17:13, 5 February 2006 (UTC)Renmiri

I removed the reference to blond hair with dark skin being "biologically impossible" in the Al Bhed section. From the Blond_hair page: "Blond hair however is found all over Europe ... and is even present in the Middle East and South Asia, though it is very rare there, except amongst the Pashtuns of Afghanistan and Pakistan. ... Blondism is also present in a large proportion of Aboriginal Australians, and in general, people of Aboriginal Australian descent tend to have fair hair. "
So obviously, it's possible, though of course the most common blonds (in our world!) are light-skinned. Identity0 11:03, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Is it permissible to place the Al Bhed article into the Human section? It was missing from the reverted copy, so I opted to do it now. Okay? 私はBluerfnです 16:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Section for Selkies and Lilties

There needs to be a section for Selkies and Lilties. Gargants and Shoopuffs have them and they are more insignificant. - The person who did the Yuke section. XD

The numerous occurances of second person (addressing the reader as "you") need to be fixed. Other than that, it's nice to see all these articles consolidated - I just hope the page doesn't grow excessively long. Perhaps Chocobo and Moogle should remain in their own articles because they're such large sections. Aerion 05:06, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No wait, I think I've changed my mind after taking a closer look (in which I tried to correct some second-person and stylistic issues). What is really needed is severe trimming of those sections. The current version amounts to a chocobo strategy guide - that's what GameFAQs is for. I think a more general treatment would be better - does anyone agree? Aerion 05:26, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

... Or maybe nobody really cares. Aerion//talk 07:20, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it definitely needs to be trimmed; the article is now 31KB, and on the edit page there's a message warning to not let it exceed 32KB. -JarlaxleArtemis 02:35, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
By the way, how do you delete the Contents box? I'm sure that would take up less memory. -JarlaxleArtemis 02:39, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Deleting the Contents box will not take up less memory - the box is generated by the MediaWiki software every time the page is loaded, and is not part of the page source. But it's not a bad idea to remove the TOC anyway because it's taking up enourmous amounts of real estate on the page. You can remove it by adding __NOTOC__ anywhere in the article. I've gone ahead and done it on this article already. Aerion//talk 02:58, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to move some of these entries into their own articles: the entries on Chocobos, Moogles, Cactaurs and Tonberries are fairly tightly written, but are still long enough to be seperate entries. While it makes sense to have this page for certain races (esp. those that only appear in one or two games), the length of this page at the moment is a bit of a problem, IMO. – Seancdaug 03:49, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

Hm -- I can see the need for a separate article on Chocobos or on Moogles, because they're fairly well-known, but do Cactaurs and Tonberries really merit separate articles? They're fairly obscure compared to the first two, no? (lord knows, given the amount of truly psychotic fancruft in WP (see Category:Gundam weaponry), this is a fairly minor issue, but I'm curious.) jdb ❋ (talk) 04:20, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
Certainly neither Cactaurs or Tonberries are as well-known as either Chocobos or Moogles, but I still think they probably deserve individual articles. They're both popular enough to have their own spin-off merchandise (personally, I adore my Tonberry plushie :-) ), at least. Housekeeping also plays a part: while the entries (now articles) probably could be revised to tighten up the prose a bit, most of the information contained in those entries is worthwhile. In the interest of keeping this page of managable length, it makes sense (to me, at least), to provide no more than a basic overview here, while the seperate articles can cover anything that goes beyond that. Trying to find a balance between relevant detail and fancruft is tricky, to be sure, but I personally felt the information in the two articles, if a bit specialized, wasn't at the level of fancruft. Just my two cents, though. – Seancdaug 05:07, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Guado picture.

Is Maester Seymour really representative for the Guado race, being only half-Guado? krikkert 22:20, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] what defines a race?

i think there are far too many non-"race" like creatures in this article, making it more a bestiary. Yes, technically, pug/tonberry is a race. But so are aboute very single enemy in every single final fantasy--tonberry is simply a monster in several of the games. why aren't the race of espers from ff6, which half the story is based around, listed? why arent the hybrid animal like people, like lone wolf listed? they're in several games. many are correct, and good, like bangaa, but i'm seeing far too many "new-FF" races and not enough old ones. i will do some research and hopefully add some more. Lockeownzj00 07:06, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

I think that Tonberry is in fact counted as a race in Final Fantasy XI, as long as it is in one game I think it should be here, but we sure do not need a second bestiary. Defining a race is harder than everybody might think and I've yet to find the perfect solution to define what exactly only belongs in Final Fantasy bestiary and Races of Final Fantasy. All I can say is that a bestiary is a record of imaginary or real (in this case it's probably gonna be imaginary) creatures or rocks (believe it or not). Human races are not gonna be in the bestiary so they've got to be here at least. – DarkEvil 13:28, August 6, 2005 (UTC)

  • Quote:why aren't the race of espers from ff6, which half the story is based around, listed? why arent the hybrid animal like people, like lone wolf listed? — simply because no one has included them yet. Why not do it? — CuaHL 14:19, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I understand that. But I don't want to start without some picture references, and I'm not far enough through my replaying of ff6 in japanese or its english companion for comparison to take pictures of the Esper World.

Is anybody willing to go through the FF games with me, one by one, whether here in the talk page or through instant message, so we can organise exactly which races are in which games? Obviously we wouldn't be able to do it off the top of our heads so we'd need to use many resources (hello ffcompendium and probably play through the games a bit ourselves, but I think it'd be good work, once we finally implemented it. Lockeownzj00 20:10, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

  • First, don't forget to note comparisons you can find on JAP and US FFVI as it was suggested to add a story section in the localization and censorship, so it could be great. I'm in for finding every FF race and adding their respective picture and artwork if available. What doesn't defines as a race are really those monsters with no story behind them. I think the tonberries have their place because they're a non-playable race in FFXI I think, but I've never played that game, just using ffcompendium for that one. I'm not willing to play through FFIII for the NES though. Also, a good thing to do, saving us time for the games which we don't need to play through (you want to play FFVI through so don't do that for that one), is using saved games, preferably at the ending of the game with an airship, so we can visit through the world all the places and find all the races. Just doing that allows us to take screenshots of them, also it allows us (well me at least) to revive memories on that race (unless it's the first time you play through) so that we can write about them. — DarkEvil 13:57, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
    • I'm quite happy to help. We should get together in the WikiProject chatroom (irc.freenode.net #wpff). — CuaHL 14:17, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
  • I doubt you'll be able to get picture referances for all of the races. And i also notice you are well short on races from earlier FF games. Notably i can say you are missing Elves, Mermaids, Dragons and Leifans from FF1.
  • What about the FFXI beastman races, which are placed in the bestiary of non-sentinent races? The Tonberry are apparently a race, but races which either coexist or fight based on reason such as the Goblins, Yagudo or Quadav aren't? Where exactly is the line drawn? Niton 07:33, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
    • I think a race should be able to think and, unless it's made impossible by physiology or access to them, they should be able to communicate with other races. That's just what I think, though. Ravenwolf Zero 19:32, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Behemoth?

Don't we make a point of keeping this as a catalog of races and not a bestiary? If that's the case, why is the Behemoth included in this article? Last time I checked, the Behemoth has been, and always will be, a monster the players have to fight, and has never had a role other than posing a challenge. I'd like to hear the reason why it was included in the first place before I make a decision to delete it or not. Kakashi-sensei 21:17, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Also, I don't believe that the Chocobo, Cactuar, Shoopuf, and Tonberry belong in this section because (as I've said above) they are not counted as a "race" (i.e. an intelligent group with at least some semblance of society, government, intelligent communication, etc.). While you could make an argument that Cactuars from FFX could fit this description and they could potentially be an exception, I think most will agree that Chocobos, Shoopufs, and Tonberries do not belong in this section. They belong in either the Bestiary or in a new article such as "Mascots/Staples/Animals of Final Fantasy," or something of the like. Kakashi-sensei 21:22, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Humans as a race

Many FF have humans as a race in the games (eg, Humes in FFXI). Should there be a short entry included in this list? Chanlord 04:10, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Lucavi

I've tagged this merging to this article. It could also possible be moved to the Final Fantasy bestiary but I'm not too familar with the Lucavi and if they are sentient or not. Discuss Chanlord 07:45, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lucavi equals Good Idea!

That's a good idea, as the Zodiac stones were sentient! Itsame 04:11, 6 January 2006

[edit] Cetra section edited

There was a bit of inaccurate information in the Cetra article (such as Aerith being half-Cetra, a notion which ignores the fact that one cannot be such a thing; one either is a Cetra or they aren't), and it was otherwise a bit short on relevant information. I've expanded the article and added a good deal of relevant information that the section was deeply lacking.

Ryu Kaze February 10, 2006

[edit] Clavats

I added the instruction manual/official website blurb about Clavats, but I can't remember any of the male suits nor the first female suit. Could someone with a manual handy finish that off and maybe add a picture? Eowynjedi 21:27, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Selkie's Breasts.

Uh, there is no source that selkie's mature more quickly other than the picture of the selkie.

It seems that it stemmed from this edit.

It was added some months ago, so it's probably an unnoticed pervert-ish bit of vandalism (or mistake). You're right, there seems to be no official source that claims this.

[edit] Template?

In some of the races, it goes "Appears in FF__", where as some other ones list the appearances in the paragraph. Can there be some sort of universal structure?

[edit] FFXII

Hi. I've added information on FFXII races on September 11. It's from the Scenario Ultimania. Should I put a reference in it or just leave it alone? 私はBluerfnです 06:59, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm also going to add some pictures related to these races, soon. 私はBluerfnです 07:10, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I've added pictures related to the races. I hope I don't infringe any copyrights or anything, because I support Square Enix....huhuhu. 私はBluerfnです 15:10, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tonberries

In FFVI, in the American localization at least, the name of a single one of these creatures was "Pugz." Yes, the 'z' makes it sound plural, and yes, they did appear in groups, but 'z' does not actually pluralize in English and the name of a single enemy in FFVI does not refer to the group. I suggest that 'Pug,' seemingly an attempt to make the word 'Pugz' singular, is incorrect, and that the name of this creature should be listed here as it appears in the game: Pugz.

It's written only as "Pug" and "Pugs" (two separate monsters) in FF6, never "Pugz". --HeroicJay 19:45, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Specifically, "Pugs" is one of a handful of monsters in Final Fantasy VI that appears as an invisible stack: one monster laid directly on top of the other monster, so that it initially looks as if there is only one monster present. Under those circumstances, its seems like "Pugs" is intended as a plural form of "Pug." – Sean Daugherty (talk) 21:43, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I stand Corrected! Thank you.

[edit] Beastmen?

Why aren't beastmen here? If races like Tonberries and the Urutan-Yensa are here, shouldn't beastmen be here, too? Just a little entry like the one in the bestiary seems good... --Jopasopa 21:23, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree as the beastmen are portrayed in FFXI as having a very full history and their own separate nations. They can be viewed as equal to the playable races as far as their effect on the world. There is a decent article at http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Beastmen It even has the Poroggos listed. --- 20:48, 20 November 2006 207.62.190.7 (Talk)

Since, as far as I can tell, the bestiary is no longer, should the beastmen races go here? I guess under one heading would be okay, but since stuff like Urutan-Yensa and Mermaids are here, I don't see why a race such as the Poroggos (newest race and thus least plot development) would be less significant. --Jopasopa 04:39, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

We're working on a new beastmen page at User:Deckiller/Beastmen (Final Fantasy XI). I'll probably end up getting a section on either the races/creatures page in the long run. — Deckiller 04:47, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Ah, I see. Is it okay if I contribute to that page? --Jopasopa 14:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely. — Deckiller 00:44, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nature of the Urutan

The current entry is incorrect in attributing the Urutan to the artificer's log (that is included on their entry in the Clan Primer). This log clearly describes the creature being capable of looking like a cask, and thus I feel it is much more correct to attribute the log to the Mimics, who are very obviously of an artificial nature (which means the Mimic Queen in the Barheim Passage is probably the 'mother' being referred to in the artificer's log). Given this, there is little reason to doubt the Urutan are anymore unnatural to Ivalice than the Bangaa or Seeqs. -Dave 128.205.75.166 04:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC) --I agree, and they are "Humanoid" after all Almighty Rajah 23:10, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cosmo Canyon race - why refering to manticore?

I would like to change the reference of "manticore-like" on the Cosmo Canyon race to "lion-like".

The reason for this is that the two physical distinctions that sepperate a manticore from a lion are not preasent in any Cosmo Canyon race, namely the head of a human or the tail of a scorpian. Instead he has the body of a lion, the head of a lion, and the tail of a lion... on fire.

[edit] Uh...

Why does it say "Because of this understanding, they have produced some of the greatest mages in the world's history, including Morphling and Loutaru the summoners who fought during the Crystal War of 863 C.E." under the Tarutaru section? I can't recall anything regarding a Morphling or Loutaru, and, judging by their names, they are player characters. Perhaps someone added fan-fiction or someone not familiar with the story saw the fan-fic and assumed it to be canon? --Jopasopa 03:03, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Ridiculous fancruft. Removing at once. 私はBluerfnです 08:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Final Fantasy Summons

I threw together a quick stub for Final Fantasy summons, please help expand it. I will do some expanding on it as I find time. --Daedalus 01:14, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

We are actually trying to move away from lists of in-universe information (that info was merged long ago). I guarentee it won't fly with most of the project because of this. — Deckiller 02:26, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I've brought this up on Wikipedia Talk:WikiProject Final Fantasy. We should discuss this there for a concensus. --Daedalus 21:21, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Consolidation of this page

Ideally, this page will morph from a list of the 40+ races throughout the series to an article chronicling the history of races in the series, describing notable races, and so on. A lot of the "one-fers" (Occuria, etc) can be merged into appropriate game areas, such as Spira (Final Fantasy X), Terminology of Final Fantasy VI, and so on. — Deckiller 02:55, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I went ahead and created a possible version of this page (User talk:NicholaiDaedalus), removing all races that only appear in one game (for this purpose, I count FFX and FFX-2 as one game). In the process I also ended up merging Moogle into this list, though it still needs a lot of trimming, and the original page isn't redirected yet. I ended up merging the Shumi entry into the Moomba entry as a sub-entry, since the Shumi only appear in one game whereas the Moomba are in multiple. I removed Dragons, Cactuar or Tonberry since they are detailed in Creatures of Final Fantasy. The end result is a comprehensive list of everything that appears in at least 2 games and is only 10 entries long. I left this page as it is so that we can merge the "one-fers", which I don't have time to do right now. --Daedalus 21:41, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
We might be able to add an others section if we find it difficult or impossible to do the one-fers merges. — Deckiller 22:36, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Since Moombas are the evolved form of some Shumis, shouldn't they be considered a sub-species of Shumis? Unless I forgot an important detail or something, I think Shumi should have its entry and Moomba would be a sub-entry of it. Kariteh 21:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Humes of FFXII

The subsection for FFXII Humes seems useless to me. There's nothing too significant about them that they should get extra attention when compared to other humans and the Humes of FFXI. So what if they're everywhere, a jack-of-all-trades, more diverse than other races, have members of other races in their society while other races usually only welcome the same race, and generally make up the leaders of the fictional world. Nearly every depiction of humans, even outside of FFs, has been the same or similar. --Jopasopa 16:14, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

EDIT: I don't mean they shouldn't be mentioned at all. Personally I do think FFXI/FFXII Humes are slightly more significant than other humans in FFs and deserve a few sentences for each. Maybe a subsection for both Vana'dielian and Ivalice Humes? If anything, FFXI Humes are more significant than FFXII Humes, mostly because of their richer backstories and the fact that racial personalities and relationships play a rather big part in the game's storyline. --Jopasopa 16:18, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

As rich as their backstory may be, that's just one game and therefore insignificant to the series as a whole. They are no more significant than humes/humans in any other game. That information would be more appropriate in a race section under FFXI main article, not here. --Daedalus 19:59, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't get it. FFXII's humes deserve some special 2-paragraph mention even though racial difference in that game don't have much importance to the plot, they are just there (obvious exceptions being stuff like the viera and garif, but even then those are just for a segment of the game)? Meanwhile the races' personalities' and conflicts play a huge role to the game's storyline, as opposed to FFXII, where it is more national rather than racial. What I'm saying is that either both Humes should be mentioned, neither should be, or FFXI's Humes as opposed to FFXII's humes. --Jopasopa 00:41, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I wrote the entry on Humes of FFXII. Because I didn't play FFXI, I regard myself as having no knowledge about the Hume characteristics in FFXI. Seeing that most FFXI races are already there, except Humes, why shouldn't anyone who knows write one as well? Why suggest forsaking the FFXII humes just because the FFXI Humes are not there? Even if they are insignificant, they are a race nevertheless, and they are given special attention by the storymakers - just see the Hume entry in FFXII's official website. My views. 私はBluerfnです 05:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Red XIII/Aerith Crossbreed

I've changed the line at the end of Nanaki's section that said there was no indication that Hojo planned to crossbreed the two failing species to preserve them. It's readily apparent during the scene where you save Aeris and gain Red XIII that he did, as he puts them into the same holding tank and says he's doing them both a favor by saving their species, while Red XIII plays along until he can escape by acting as if he's going to pounce on Aeris. --4.254.118.210 07:47, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you, it is clear that hojo intended Aerith to cross-breed with Red XIII in order to create a more long-lived specimen for future study, based on his comments at that moment, his comments in the boardroom meeting, and the simple logic that he would not knowingly sacrifice his research specimen to be devoured when he has just begun to study her. --Daedalus 15:45, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Human distinction

Is there a criteria to distinguish races from the "standard" humans? Is it based on physical features or something else? I was the one to merge several human-like races into the human subsection because I saw the Al Bhed there, but looking back I'm not sure what's better. If Cetra are considered humans, then perhaps the Zilart should too, since the only difference between both races and standard humans is the ability to "hear" what the latters can't... But then we'd pratically be putting everything under the human section. Kariteh 21:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, I just did some merging and trimming of what other people have already placed there. I added ones that logically seemed to follow the existing pattern, but I was about to propose discussion of this very topic right before you beat me to the chase. --Daedalus 22:08, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Table of contents

I don't see an issue with the standard ToC. I recommend it be used instead. — Deckiller 16:36, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moogle merging??

So I hear the Moogle article is going to be merged into this? Why should it be merged? Moogles have appeared in the Final Fantasy series (including Final Fantasy: Unlimited), the Kingdom Hearts series, the Seiken Densetsu/Mana series, the Chocobo games series, and Mario Hoops 3-on-3. They're clearly more than just a "Race of Final Fantasy", and as such I think they deserve their article. Kariteh 16:40, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Against merging. Moogles deserve their own article for their numerous appearances and roles in the series. And it does feel weird that Chocobo and Cactuar have their own articles, while Moogles don't. No for merging. Edit: forgot to sign, please forgive my manners. 私はBluerです 17:05, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
  1. Information creep has inflated the moogle entry in the races article to contain as much information as the main article. If a subsection can contain the same volume of information, then there is no reason to create a main page.
  2. There was information in the main article that was not in the races section. While this is not normally a problem, there was also information in the section that was not in the main article. A reader should not have to go to multiple places to learn about the same topic, that is a bad thing. The merge creates only one location for information creep to occur so that it is not only consolidated, but immediately consistent as well.
  3. While Moogles are certainly notable enough to warrant their own article, there was simply not enough encyclopedic information to warrant it. What we have is a paragraph or two discussing the topic, and a page and a half listing appearances. This is borderline directory material, and full of trivial fluff content. The amount of meaningful content is hardly enough to warrant a seperate article, and it is doubtful there will ever be more content beyond moogle's appearances and game-specific trivia.
  4. Chocobo and Cactuar should also be merged into Creatures of Final Fantasy for all the same reasons as they are all little more that a description and a list of appearances. And if no one has merged them by the time I find to time to take a critical look at them, then I will merge them as well.

--Daedalus 20:18, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Do not merge. There was no link before the merge to the separate article; that might contribute to the "information creep". Anyway, it was the largest section on the page besides maybe the Humans section, and, yes, required trimming. It's been trimmed and the link is there now. --HeroicJay 21:41, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Correction, there was a link (I backed up to the wrong point), but most of the "information creep" happened after the merge anyway. It was just clutter, really, especially after the merge. --HeroicJay 21:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Go back and check again. I put together two different merges, the first one on the 15th, and before I performed the merge, the Moogle section under races was huge. So all of the information creep happened before the merge. There also was a link to the main article before that merge as well. Someone reverted without discussion the redirect on the main moogle page when I did the first merge, but they did not re-add the link in the races article, possibly leading to your initial misunderstanding. And what you refer to as "clutter", was the combined information found in both places merged into one, not only that, but if you check the history you will find that I did go back and trim a lot of it out. You are essentially mistaken on all of your points. --Daedalus 22:49, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I haven't been following the entire thing. Nevertheless, your argument for why it should be merged, as I see it, was that it was a lot of redundant information and that one or the other or both was poorly written. I agree with all of that to some degree, but don't see why that means they must be merged. --HeroicJay 23:17, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
On the contrary, poorly written and redundant it may be, but that's not my reason for merging. My primary reason for merging is that the entirety of the encyclopedic information on the main page fits within a couple paragraphs, and the rest of the page is filled with fluffed up formatting of appearances that once rewritten can fit within a single small paragraph. There basically just isn't enough meat to make a seperate article. --Daedalus 23:25, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Still, feels like something of a double-standard when we have an article about each of the 491 Pokemon species, or Koopas, but moogles, which have been in at least eight numbered FFs and many other games, including being playable characters in several, are out. --HeroicJay 23:18, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you, it is something of a double-standard. My response to that is that those articles need to be trimmed. We need to define our practices based on guidelines, policy, and accepted practice of the Wikiproject, and not based on other examples that violate the no-trivia and no-directory clauses of our guidelines. --Daedalus 00:09, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Agree to merge; it is hard for Moogles to assert notability on their own; races as a whole, however, is another story. We are trying to prevent cruft and make sure the FF coverage is encyclopedic; I don't care if we have to break out the axe, we have to get this done per obvious reasons. — Deckiller 22:38, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
You should really use more specific lead-ins. The "agree" above is against merging, and this one is for. --HeroicJay 23:17, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Wait. There was no consensus; there was barely a vote. It was 2-2. Why did you merge it then? --HeroicJay 01:20, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

All meaningful arguements are in favor of the merge. The arguements against merging are "Moogles deserve their own article" with no reasoning to back it up and comparisons to other articles. The arguments for merging are numerous and backed by policy: its content is trivial, it's brief and unlikely to become more expounded, content of the seperate articles are largely directory material, their individual notability as a seperate article has been questioned, the contents are largely cruft, etc. We are weighing arguments, not counting votes. Wikipedia is not a democracy. --Daedalus 16:27, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
But the only one who gave any original arguments against was you (Deckiller more-or-less repeated what you said) and you merged. Translation: you took initiative because you agreed with your own arguments. That's kind of unfair. --HeroicJay 05:41, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
At any rate, you want a good argument? It's already been mentioned as a minor point, but I'll restate it: Moogles exist in games that are not Final Fantasy, and as more than just cameos in those games, so having them exist only on a page for "Races of Final Fantasy" is underplaying them. Unless you want to rename this page "Races of Square-Enix games" - in which case, good luck keeping its length under control. --HeroicJay 05:50, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
  • As policy states, Moogles can have their own article if they are the subject of two or more reliable secondary sources (excluding strategy guides, but they are not the subject of those anyway). So, if you can find IGN editor articles about them, New York Times articles, magazine articles, etc, and you can get 3+ Reliable Sources, then they might be able to warrent a seperate article. — Deckiller 11:19, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
That's not what the notability guidelines say. That applies to web content; moogles are a fictional race. --HeroicJay 17:52, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm talking about WP:FICT and, more importantly, the policy of Wikipedia:Attribution. The former says that fictional articles must have some sort of out of unvierse perspective, and the latter states that all material must be attributable to a reliable source. Sure, Moogles may be able to have their own article, but it will be difficult to provide a significant (3+ points, as my example) out of universe perspective via attribution to a reliable source. In other words, notability may be obvious, but attribution and perspective may not be. Sure, we can say that Moogles have been cosplayed, but is there a reliable source to back that up? Currently, none have been found; therefore, we must limit coverage of moogles with the rest of this article; a description attributing sources that describe. If enough out of universe information that is attributable to a reliable source can be found to complement the in-universe description, then it will be able to stand on its own article. Policies and guidelines cannot be interpreted individually; the notability guidelines must be taken with all the other policies and guidelines, although policies always have a priority over guidelines. If a series of articles is weak in its adherence to all policies, then they are better off being kept together in a large article, which stands better on its own. — Deckiller 19:50, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Someone's gone and deleted the Moogle article on this page. Someone decide what you want to do; Deckiller is requesting research before contemplating a seperate article. For now, we at need the section back up here. Nagyss 23:57, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
It wasn't deleted, it was merged, if I understand your concern correctly. I know, because I merged it. All of the information that wasn't trivial or cruft is now present in the section in this article. Nothing is missing, in fact, there is more information in this section than there ever was in the original, seperate article. No back-up is necessary. --—ΔαίδαλοςΣ 02:26, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, this "creature from several Square Enix game series" is now merged into this Races of "Final Fantasy" article. Kariteh 13:04, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
"Several Square-Enix game series"? Let's think about this:
  1. Final Fantasy
  2. Seiken Densetsu: a gaiden of Final Fantasy
  3. Chocobo Series: a spin-off of Final Fantasy
  4. Kingdom Hearts Series: a spin-off of both Final Fantasy and Disney
  • Moogles' first appearance: Final Fantasy
  • Series that they most often appear in: Final Fantasy
  • Series that are not spin-offs/gaidens of Final Fantasy that they appear in: NONE
Conclusion: Moogles are a Final Fantasy Race that also appears in Final Fantasy Spin-offs/Gaidens. Let's not load our statements by implying that they should not be representative of specifically Final Fantasy, since they clearly are. --—ΔαίδαλοςΣ 17:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
As a not-so-unrelated note, should we rename Square Enix battle systems to "Final Fantasy battle systems? That article describes ATB, CTB, and RTB/ADB, which are all battle systems representative of specifically Final Fantasy, despite having also been used in several non-FF games. Kariteh 21:29, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
By the same logic that I presented for Moogles, if it appears in games that are not gaidens/spin-offs of Final Fantasy, then no, it should remain as "Square Enix". But if it only appears in games that are gaidens/spin-offs of Final Fantasy, then my vote is yes, it should be renamed to "Final Fantasy". --—ΔαίδαλοςΣ 22:40, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to note that Seiken Densetsu is no longer classed as a gaiden/spin-off of Final Fantasy and is now recognised as the World of Mana series. Kingdom Hearts is not a Final Fantasy spin-off but it could be argued that moogles are only feature as a Final Fantasy cameo so that's a moot point. Antisora 16:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Kariteh has twice merged Chocobo into Creatures of Final Fantasy on the basis of "existing consensus." I see no such thing here. Now, I hold that it works better on its own due simply because there's too much content to fit in a section of Creatures of Final Fantasy, but enough for a separate article. Even assuming an unreasonably tight squeeze of the presently trim-needing appearances section, the chocobo section would be much larger than the others' and unwieldy. I see no reason why we shouldn't place a suitable overview on the creatures page, with a link to the separate article for those who seek specific information. That's what is currently done. --Kizor 21:14, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Kariteh, and there is consensus. The same thing happened with Moogle, Races, Classes, certain characters, and other such articles. Currently, the Chocobo article is doing the exact same thing that they all did: it has very little actuall content, and a whole lot of trivial fluff in an over-exagerrated "appearances" section. But his move was a little premature, the Chocobo content needs to be reformatted and trimmed first, then merged after that. If no one else gets to it first, I will perform this task in three hours from now. --—ΔαίδαλοςΣΣ 16:01, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
    • If sources can be found that describe the Chocobo's development, reception/criticism, and perhaps merchandise, then I'd bet it could stand on its own as an article. Otherwise, it belongs in the Creatures supserarticle that is infinitely greater than the sum of its parts. Same goes with Moogle and the others. — Deckiller 16:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I have created a trimmed-down, reformatted version of the Chocobo Page to be included as a section for Creatures of Final Fantasy. My draft which can be found here is still quite large, so It'd be nice to get a few more eyes to go through it and remove what they feel is unnecessary and clean it up a bit before I perform the final merge. Also, any sourcing that you can provide would be much appreciated. All further discussion of this should occur in Talk:Creatures of Final Fantasy#Chocobo Merge and not here. --—ΔαίδαλοςΣΣ 19:47, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

We do have this mildly deranged advertisement, if that helps any. We can't ref youtube, but we could dig out the details of the advertisement elsewhere. --Kizor 07:41, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other Races getting out of hand

Since my initial merge I have indicated that the other races section needs some more trimming, instead it has exploded with more info and images galore. The key here is that they are trivial because they only appear in one game. The goal of this article is to educate the reader on the types of races often seen in Final Fantasy, not bombard them with every little detail about every race that ever appeared as a single village in only one game! Most of the time there's only one notable member of those races, anyway. Please stop adding images and information. They should be trimmed to little more than mentions, not expanded. WP is not a gameguide. --Daedalus 20:46, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't a good idea to create an image gallery instead of letting those pictures float there as a distraction to the text? edit: All right, no image gallery. Done, besides, removing the other trivial images. 私はBluerです 07:56, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
That's fine by me, they really are trivial. I'm hoping that we can someday get the Other Races section down to just a few paragraphs at most for each game, but I don't see that happening overnight. --Daedalus 15:53, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Races versus creatures?

I'm looking at some of the entries on this list, and couldn't they be considered "creatures"? I'm thinking about proposing a rename of Creatures of Final Fantasy to Monsters of Final Fantasy, to better distinguish the two. Moogles are creatures, but not monsters; Humans are creatures, but not monsters; and chocobos are creatures that the player can fight, but they aren't usually hostile monsters. It's hard naming general gameplay subarticles and standardizing them. But this is some food for thought. — Deckiller 22:55, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm still not sure what to think, but it seems the page has already been renamed without discussion. Kariteh 21:48, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Just an idea to toss out there: what if we were to seperate them out as Monsters, Creatures and Races? This has the advantage of clearly defining what does and does not belong on the monster list, places a definite location for previously ambiguous creatures (example: Chocobo), as well as most other creatures are quite clearly either a Race or a Creature (example: Human, Elvaan). The disadvantages are twofold: 1) we are creating a third page, which in itself is not so bad and 2) many creatures are not quite so clear as to whether they are a race or creature (example: Moomba, Moogle), and there are still the odd-ones-out that can be argued to belong in all three catagories (example: Cactuar). It's rather arbitrary, but I'd basically seperate them out based on either their level of cultural advancement (not to be confused with intelligence) or their socio-political involvement/influence in their worlds. --Daedalus 20:21, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

We're bound to make arbitrary separations in all cases, since Square never bothered separating their beings into clearly defined types to begin with. I believe Daedalus' culture suggestion is the best so far though. We can just have "Creatures" and "Races", with the proposed distinction. In "Races", we would precise that the beings described are the beings who generally form populations that have a visible and advanced culture. In "Creatures", we'd precise that the beings described are the animals, monsters, and intelligent beings who generally don't have any culture. Moombas don't have any cultures, so they'd go in Creatures (unlike Shumi!). Moogles don't really show any culture in III and maybe even VI, but they certainly do in XI, XII, TA, CC, KH, etc. (i.e. the majority of the games), so they'd go in Races. Chocobos do show a culture in IX (Chocobo's Air Garden ruled by Fat Chocobo or something), but they generally don't in the series so they'd go in Creatures (the word "generally" is important in the precisions). We may also be able to couple these reasonings with the socio-political influence distinction, but I'm not sure, first because the culture distinction is enough, and second because Lufenians for instance don't really influence their world much despite having a definite culture and stuff. Kariteh 23:21, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I switched creatures to monsters a while back. Also moogles have a culture in the III remake for DS> Almighty Rajah 23:25, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Cool. Still means nothing compared to the majority of the game. XI, XII, TA, CC, KH, etc. Kariteh 09:25, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
So, do you all agree to rename Monsters of FF to Creatures of FF and putting some sort of brief explanation in the intro? It's just a shame to have those 2 big Monsters and Races articles and yet Chocobo in neither of them. Kariteh 18:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Okay since everyone agrees, I'm renaming the stuff. Kariteh 22:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
...Can an admin do it? I can't since the page Creatures of FF already exists (as a redirect). Kariteh 22:40, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Al Bhed

Are we quite sure that they ARE human? At least in the game, they only use "human" to refer to the common, non Al-bhed, non-Guado, non-etc. stock - Yuna is even said to be half human, half Al-Bhed. Of course, they are humanoid, and they can mate with humans, but so can the clearly inhuman Guado. The game seems to seperate them as much as it does the Guado, so why not say that they are their own race/species? 128.211.175.104 22:43, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I would say yes, they are human. To me, it seems that the game makes the distinction more between Al Bhed and Yevonite than it does between Al Bhed and Human, implying that the main difference is religious. It is an ambiguous issue, though. --Daedalus 15:19, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
And yet, it says that Yuna is half-Al Bhed, even while she is a devout Yevonite. And in FFX-2, where she is almost totally following anything that could be called an Al Bhed "religion", she is still not an Al Bhed. Yes, there is obviously a religious component to the race, but due to the more relaxed rules against interspecies breeding in FF games, that is understandable. The Al Bhed are still treated as "as seperate" as Guado are.74.140.118.84 16:01, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
It's comparable to Jews. They are a religion, and yet they are also an ethnicity, so someone can be half-jewish. Why can't the same apply to Al Bhed? Al Bhed is an ethnicity, and it is a religious difference (though, in this scenario it is a lack of a specific religion), thus someone can still be half-Al Bhed. Yuna is half-Al Bhed, but full Yevonite because she is ethnically half-yevonite, but completely a member of the religion. The same could be said about someone who is half-jewish and full Christian. Their mother was jewish, their father was Christian, they are ethnically half-jewish, yet completely full Christian in religion. The game is very ambiguous about this distinction, so I feel this jewish comparison is relevant as a possible interpretation. --—ΔαίδαλοςΣ 16:42, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Issue with this page

In looking at all the "by game" races; this should probably be turned into a 5 paragraph section outlining the races briefly. Details belong in their respective articles or subarticles (like Spira (Final Fantasy X) and Terminology of Final Fantasy VI, and so on). That'll really help the problem. — Deckiller 01:20, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, they need to be trimmed to mere mentions. --Daedalus 15:20, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
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