Talk:Rabbi
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[edit] Reb
The article currently says: "Hasidim and Haredim will therefore prefer using Hebrew names for rabbinic titles based on older traditions, such as ... or often just plain Reb which is a shortened form of rebbe that can be used by, or applied to, any Jewish male as the situation applies".
As far as I know, Reb is not a shortening of Rebbe at all. Reb is the masculine title of respect in Yiddish, equivilent to "Mr." in English. It carries no conotation of being a Rebbe, a Rabbi, a Rav or being learned in any way. Maybe it began as being a shortening of Rebbe or Rabbi (I have no idea if it did or not) but it certainly does not mean that today. Does anyone else know about the meaning of the term "Reb"? Michael.passman 17:33, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Definitions
" It is safe to say that the title of "rabbi" is probably more of a "credential" or title, not a particular "job"."
This sentence is perfect for clearing basic misunderstandings of the term. It should be featured more prominantly at the beginning of the article.
"While rabbis are generally thought of as clergy, equivalent to priests or ministers in Christian denominations, in fact the role is quite different." -- On the other hand, I believe it would be accurate to say that the role of rabbi and (Muslim) imam are similar. Yes? No? Thanks for input.
Orthodox smicha is a test in halacha. That is all. There is no requirement that it include Tanach, Jewish philosophy, Talmud, or anything else. It's just shabbat, nida, and issur ve-heter (the three components of the test). Danny (been there, done that)
- The test itself may not include Talmud, but the course of study does include huge amounts of Mishnah, Talmud, and responsa, right? I wasn't referring to the final test itself, but rather to the program of study. Do most Orthodox synagogues not require the study of classic rabbinic philosophical works? I would be willing to believe this, but I would find it ironic and Reform and Conservative rabbis seem to have a more demanding array of subjects to study than Orthodox Jews. I know that at the Jewish Theological Seminary, the Conservative movement's main rabbinic seminary, there is a wide array of Judaica subjects that all rabbinic students there must master. I was under the impression that this was true also at Yeshiva University (although YU may not be representative of most Yeshivas in the last 500 years!) RK
YU is not representative. I've known plenty of people with "smicha" who can't learn a page of Talmud (blatt gemara). I also have a cousin going for smicha now, who is excited by his program because it requires them to read all of Tanach. In terms of a well-rounded Judaic studies program, JTS is certainly far ahead of most yeshivot (though this may come at the expense of halachah, which is the core/sole requirement Orthodox smichas. Danny
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- Different Yeshivos have different requirements. I have semicha (yoreh yoreh) from more than one institution (both Haredi) and while they shared Basar B'Chalav, Ta'aroves, and Niddah; one included Shchita and Melicha while the other required Aveilus and Shabbos. Avi 08:41, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Vandalism Attempts
The following vandalism was removed today 2006-12-07 by G"b"D (Pardon the language of the quote): Rabbis are basically the biggest faggots on the face of the Earth just behind every Israeli person in the world. They suck the devil's dick and in their free time they like to back stab innocent people and they will do ANYTHING for money, even suck dick for a penny. When ever you see a Jew anywhere, Spit on them, those filthy pieces of garbage.
The vandalism appears to have come from IP 71.102.153.241, partial SockCheck: NetRange: 71.96.0.0 - 71.127.255.255 CIDR: 71.96.0.0/11 NetName: VIS-71-96 NetHandle: NET-71-96-0-0-1 Parent: NET-71-0-0-0-0 NetType: Direct Allocation NameServer: NS1.BELLATLANTIC.NET NameServer: NS2.BELLATLANTIC.NET NameServer: NS2.VERIZON.NET NameServer: NS4.VERIZON.NET OrgAbuseHandle: VISAB-ARIN OrgAbuseName: VIS Abuse OrgAbusePhone: +1-214-513-6711 OrgAbuseEmail: abuse@verizon.net
User has vandalised several articles, all relating to Judaism.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.112.211.98 (talk) 14:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC).
[edit] Rav
A topic that deserves a mention on this page is the word "Rav". In Israel especially one hears all the time of "Rav so-and-so" and much less frequently of "Rabbi so-and-so". I think the words are more or less interchangable but is that true everywhere? -- zero 15:55, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)
- Rav is generally used for somebody who is an expert in Jewish law, while Rabbi generally implies a lesser degree of expertise in Jewish law. It is also used generally for teachers of Jewish religious subjects who would not ever be called a Rav. Ezra Wax 04:42, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Semicha
I take issue with the term 'laying on of hands' as Semicha is more than laying on of hands. The giver of Semicha, up till the time of the talmud when true semicha was no longer able to be given, placed his full weight on the recipient. Ezra Wax 04:42, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Um, no he didn't. It didn't even involve an actual laying on of hands; "semicha" was metaphorical. All it involved was a court bestowing on the recipient the title "ribbi", and informing him that he was now entitled to sit on a court. The recipient doesn't even need to be present at the ceremony; he can be ordained in absentia, and then informed by letter of his new status. See <a href="http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/e104.htm">Rambam Sanhedrin 4:3,6</a>. (Yeah, I know this comment is nearly 3 years old.) Zsero 08:45, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Delete section?
Should we delete the section on becoming a rabbi, and just give a link to the semicha article? The semicha article covers everything on this topic. RK 20:33, Aug 24, 2004 (UTC)
- No, because semicha only deals with the orthodox requirements. I would personally favour keeping the section here, but linking clearly to the semicha page. JFW | T@lk 20:46, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Oh, I hadn't seen what you did to semicha. I personally don't really care if you delete the paragraph. Just say something like: "See main article: semicha" and then a very brief summary of that article. JFW | T@lk 21:01, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Section just added
I've removed a section just added to the article, as follows:
Constitute a sort of nobility of the Jews, and it is the first object of each parent that his sons shall, if possible, attain it. When, therefore, a boy displays a peculiarly acute mind and studious habits, he is placed before the twelve folio volumes of the Talmud, and its legion of commentaries and epitomes, which he is made to pore over with an intenseness which engrosses his faculties entirely, and often leaves him in mind, and occasionally in body, fit for nothing else; and so vigilant and jealous a discipline is exercised so to fence him round as to secure his being exclusively Talmudical, and destitute of every other learning and knowledge whatever, that one individual has lately met with three young men, educated as rabbis, who were born and lived to manhood in the middle of Poland, and yet knew not one word of its language. To speak Polish on the Sabbath is to profane it—so say the orthodox Polish Jews. If at the age of fourteen or fifteen years, or still earlier, (for the Jew ceases to be a minor when thirteen years old,) this Talmudical student realizes the hopes of his childhood, he becomes an object of research among the wealthy Jews, who are anxious that their daughters shall attain the honour of becoming the brides of these embryo santons; and often, when he is thus young, and his bride still younger, the marriage is completed.
It appears to be some sort of outside view from 1828;[1] it hardly seems relevant now. Jayjg (talk) 20:08, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I added stuff yesterday and now its gone and there isn't even any trace in the history! What's up?
- Please try again, then report it at the village pump. JFW | T@lk 12:56, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Should we merge this with the semicha article?
I re-read this article and the semicha article. Neither are very long. It looks to me like we could merge them. Or perhaps move some of the information from their to here. Does anyone think that this would be a good idea, or should we continue to keep them separate. RK 02:40, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
- I vote to keep them separate because each has its own history and will have much material added to it eventually. Classical semicha from the days of Moses is something unique. Biblical semicha has been discontinued. Today's semichas are "stop-gap qualifications" that are mostly powerless documents. Many Talmudic scholars, Rosh yeshivas and Halakhists, called and known as rabbis do NOT have, nor do they aspire to obtain and hold semicha at all. There is in fact a great prejudice against conventional "semichas" in the Haredi Judaism world and many Haredi rabbis and rebbes do NOT have a formal "semicha" (they think today's "semichas" are a big joke!) Basically it is NOT necessary to have "semicha" in order to be a "rabbi". Thus the two subjects and the articles must remain apart. IZAK 04:54, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Agree with IZAK and Jay: Semicha is in fact not exclusively bound to the question of who is a rabbi/ḥakham, but also, e.g., to procedures for sacrifice in the Temple. I think each article should be expanded, rather than being merged with the other. -- Olve 19:32, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ok. The article on Semicha currently, then, discusses at least two separate topics. It discusses procedures for sacrifice, and the ancient form of rabbinic semicha that we no longer have. Yet it also discussed modern day rabbinical ordination in Orthodox and non-Orthodox Judaism; that seems more appropriate for this article. What about moving this latter section on modern day rabbis (in Semicha) to this Rabbi article. RK 20:19, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
- RK: Please take note that Semicha in sacrifices is now an independent seperate article by the way, which should further clarfy things. Again, forget about "merging" any parts of the Rabbi article with the Semicha more than you have to. In any case, both the Semicha article and the Rabbi article do cross-reference each other on the points you mention. Read the articles carefully again and you will see that what you propose is not needed and would merely be redundant and confusing (and may appear to run towards some sort of anti-Haredi POV conclusions perhaps.)IZAK 05:51, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
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- Please stop your paranoid complaints. No one is attacking Haredi Jews. We are talking about which paragraphs of an article to merge. RK
- RK:To call someone "paranoid" is not nice, neither on Wikipedia nor anywhere else. I know we were talking about "paragraphs of an article", but it was the contents of those paragraphs that were under discussion. And we obviously don't just "talk about paragraphs" on Wikipedia it's ALWAYS wedded to contents. Gevalt! IZAK 04:45, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Izak's historical revisionism
In an edit line to the article, Izak writes:
- Revert to last version by Everyking because RK has inserted one-side argumenst to bolster Conservative Judaism POV of what "is" and "is not" happening in the world of Orthodox Judaism)
Izak, please stop your ad homenim attacks against me! The facts stated in my edit of the article are true, and they are sourced and references. Please read the articles in the references section. (They have nothing to do with Conservative Judaism!) You have no right to use this encyclopedia to spew anger at your fellow Orthodox Jews. For those non-Jews following this discussion, please be aware that in much of Orthodox Judaism it is considered a gross insult to label someone "Conservative", "reform", or "non-Orthodox". It fact, it can lead to excommunication, at least in theory. Izak's use of these terms against those he dislikes is a religious personal attack, which is a clear violation of Wikipedia policy.
Izak has serious differences with Orthodox Jews who have views that differ from his own. Fine, but so what? Is he claiming that there are Orthodox authorities who view these many changes within Orthodoxy as heretical and/or wrong? Then he must follow Wikipedia official policy of citing sources, and presenting them in accord with our NPOV policy. Yet instead of citing sources and following NPOV, he merely inserts polemics. That is not good encyclopedia writing. RK
In the end, Izak's claims are false. While he pretends that the changes in the role of women within Orthodoxy is "Conservative" and "Modern Orthodox", in fact this change is occuring within many segements of Orthodox Judaism, including those to the theological right of "Modern Orthodoxy". For instance, the rabbinic court advocates are accepted as valid by Haredi Jews in Israel - i.e. by "Ultra-Orthodox Jews". One is astonished to learn that in Iaak's view, these "ultra-Orthodox Jews" are pushing a non-Orthodox agenda.
What is espeically bizarre is the way that Izak is attacking things that I never wrote. For some odd reason he sees sentences in the article claiming that Orthodox Judaism is becoming the same as non-Orthodox Judaism in regards to ordainding women as rabbis. Yet no such sentiments exist in this article. In fact, I wrote the exact opposite of what Izak imagines is in the article:
- Two Israeli Orthodox women are known to have been ordained as rabbis by Orthodox male rabbis, and they have some small amount of support from male peers. However, the overwhelming majority of Orthodox rabbis and laypeople do not view these ordinations as valid.
So why is Izak so angry? Apparently, the mere statement of fact is not enough. He wants the article to include a polemic against all Orthodox Jews who dare disgaree with him, but that is just not right. RK 02:03, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Stop the smokescreen/s
RK for heaven's sake man, get a grip on yourself, look at your own words against me and I daresay that it constitutes a far-reaching personal attack (and remember "two wrongs don't make a right".) Your own long record of personal attacks against Wikipedia users is horrendous, others have even tracked it, see User:MyRedDice/Wikipedians attacked by RK. Now, to get back to the point of the REAL issues here...First of all, you keep mentioning two mysterious females that were "ordained" as "Orthodox" rabbis, well who the heck are they if you think they are such Earth-shattering "samples" of a new breed of "Orthodox" rabbis? Secondly, to write the obvious does not need a "citation", such as when we say point blank THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A FEMALE RABBI IN ORTHODOX JUDAISM. That is a truism that is self-evident and that is as clear as daylight and that everybody knows is obvious (of course, you could fool someone who knows little or zero about this subject by claiming your "citations" are impressive, but they are not) because NOT A SINGLE LEADING ORTHODOX RABBINIC AUTHORITY HAS EVER SAID THAT THERE MUST BE, OR SHOULD BE, LADY RABBIS, in fact they are basically universally opposed to even the thought of the mention of the subject, (everybody who knows Orthodox Judaism well knows this, except you it seems.) It would be like requiring a citation that the "sun shines in the day" and "the moon is in the night sky". Thirdly, female to'anot are not and will not ever be Orthodox "rabbis", even if they would have IQs of 150, could recite the Talmud backwards, and knew the Shulkhan Arukh by heart. Furthermore, to call them "clergy" does NOT help you any, as the word "clergy" is alien to Judaism (it's better suited for Christians who know what it means). So it's not a case of knowledge, as Jewish women, not just rabbis' wives, have always valued Torah knowledge and have learnt it themslves and encouraged their sons to become Torah scholars and their well-versed daughters to study it and to marry Torah learning husbands. This has always been true in Jewish history. Finally, who gives you the right to decide what is the norm in the world of Orthodox Judaism? This is an open-ended discussion and you have no right to assert its direction by pretending to represent some sort of "moral high ground". (Note: Due to the Passsover season now almost upon us, let us wait and see what some other well-learned contributors such as User:Jayjg and User:Jfdwolff, who DO know something about this subject, have to say when they get around to it.) Thank you. IZAK 07:35, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Izak, you are hysterical, and need to take a break. You are bizarrely attacking statements that I simply never made. Also, I find it sad that you imagine that I personally have anything to do with any of this. You say "who gives you the right to decide what is the norm in the world of Orthodox Judaism." Um, I wasn't quoted in any of these articles! (Article, by the way, that I note you censored, in clear violation of Wikipedia policy.) Please read these articles. None of the Orthodox rabbi cited within is me! Your anger at many of your fellow Orthodox Jews is your right, but don't attack the messenger. We may not censor this article to only allow POVs that you agree with. In any case, in accord with the good-faith policy of Wikipedia NPOV, I am consciously writing for the opposition, including many Orthodox POVs, not just one. You would do well to do the same. RK 13:23, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Female Orthodox rabbis?
I've tried to understand the disagreement between User:RK and User:IZAK on these pages and am unclear what its essence is. This is not a topic I know much about, but it seems to me that there is agreement on certain crucial facts:
- The halachic case for or against ordination of women requires consideration of a wide range of factors. I don't know the extent to which the issue has been discussed and decided among leading Orthodox rabbis, but it may be worthwhile outlining the state of the issue.
- Nobody is saying that women can't be rabbis because they're inferior in any way.
- Nobody is saying that women have no role to play in what I would - for lack of a better term - call a "rabbinic process." They may be consulted on specific issues and are obliged to learn.
- I don't know if the account of two female Orthodox rabbis can be verified; even if it is true, they are certainly avoiding publicity.
I don't know, for example, if the issue is something as absolute whether women are eligible or ineligible for ordination, or if it's one of those things that are halachically possible but practically inconceivable. Similarly, I don't know whether the Orthodox community views the issue as a non-starter because there are other things they'd rather worry about. It might also be worthwhile discussing the role of the rebbetzin in Orthodox communities - Chaya Schneerson is certainly revered within the Lubavitch community, as an example.--Leifern 03:32, 2005 Apr 21 (UTC)
- RK has the habit of finding controversial fringe issues and blowing them up to tremendous proportions.
- The vast majority of Orthodoxy, both Haredi and Modern-Orthodox, does not support female rabbis. Women can fill a leadership role in different ways, and frequently do.
- If the subject needs to be discussed at all, a few lines are enough, with the obvious disclaimer that only the extreme left wing of Modern Orthodoxy supports female rabbinate. I do not like RK's new version at all. JFW | T@lk 09:52, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
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- JFW, this is a major issue issue in Israeli and American Orthodox Judaism. No one well read on this topic could ever present it as "fringe", nor should one falsely accuse me of blowing up some minor discussion. It is discussed in Orthodox Yeshivas, in the American Jewish press, the Israeli Jewish press, and the result is that even some Haredi rabbis accept the Toanot as valid. RK 12:28, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
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- I agree. It is yet another attempt to take what is at best a (currently unverified) tiny fringe phenomenon in Orthodoxy and blow it up so that it dominates the article. Not surprisingly, this tiny left-wing fringe in Orthodoxy also happens to be fairly closely aligned with the Conservative movement's view. Jayjg (talk) 17:19, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
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- JayJG, again, please stop your personal attacks against me and against Orthodox Jews that do not share your beliefs. For those who don't understand why JayJG's statement above is inappropriate, know that it is considered an ad homenim attack in much of the Orthodox Jewish community to label a fellow Orthodox Jew's view as "Conservative" or "non-Orthodox." JayJG obviously disapproves of the many Orthodox Jews who accept such developments within Orthodoxy, and is attempting to demean them by implying that they are not really Orthodox. While he has the right to have this view, this encyclopedia is not the place to engage in such religious polemics. RK
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- It would be grossly incorrect to claim that the growing number of Orthodox Jews accepting these changes is only a "tiny fring aligned with the Conservative movement." That kind of rhetoric may make some religious extremists feel happy, but there is little truth to the charge. Please use this Talk page for its sole intended purpose: For discussion of how to improve this article. Read the sources I offered, and if you question any fact, please bring your own sources. Please desist in your religious polemics against Orthodox Jews who happen to have views that differ from your own. RK 12:37, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
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Both of you are missing the point: Neither of you responded to the specific points that I made, above. The problem is not in the discussion of facts. The problem is that Izak is still using this article to pontificate and write POV essays. In fact, in all other articles Izak's POV essay writing is precisely the sort of thing that JayJG works so hard to stop, as it clearly violates our NPOV policy. All I am asking is that we just describe the facts and cite sources in accord with NPOV. But Izak isn't adding any facts; he is just venting anger. RK 12:28, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
In the comment line to one of his recent edits, Izak writes Please stop making "me" the issue here and stick to the topics. "To'anot" no matter how smart, are NOT "Rabbis" .To use "clergy" inaccurate This claim takes my breath away, as I obviously wrote no such thing. In fact, I wrote the very opposite. I specifically wrote that (a) Orthodox Judaism does not accept women as rabbis, (b) that Toanot are not rabbis, and (C) that Orthodox Jews consider these clergy-like roles, and not rabbinical clergy. So what does Izak do? He pretends that I wrote the exact opposite, and the rewrites the entire section of the article to attack words that are not even there! This is not professional or even in accord with Wikipedia policy. In fact, I have a hard time parsing it as rational. RK
- I am now suggesting, and will soon initiate, this solution: we delete the paragraph on the possibility of female Orthodox rabbis altogether, and create a separate section on female rabbis in general, outlining the various movements' position on the practice. I will make an effort to phrase the Orthodox position in a way that is accurate and neutral, though I'm sure both RK and Izak will want to weigh in. We'll see if that makes things worse or better. --Leifern 12:51, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
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- Just to clarify, are you suggesting moving this section to an entirely new article, and only briefly describe this topic within this main article? I would be fine with that. Izak, I am afraid, would not be fine with anything. Please read his comments: He is attacking statements not in the article, is censoring the article by deleting entire sections (the entire Reference section), and is claiming that I personally am responsible for all these changes in Orthodoxy. I seriously doubt that he has actually read any of the articles in the references section, and is unfamiliar with the issue. RK 13:27, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
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- My idea is that we set up a separate section within the article on the issue of women and rabbis. --Leifern 13:32, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
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[edit] Cleanup?
This is really interesting reading, but I suspect that it makes more sense to someone who already knows a bit about the topic than someone who wants to learn about it. I don't have time to do anything about this before Pesach, but perhaps we can reduce some of the conflict and make this more readable by restructuring the article. I'll propose some ideas next week. In the meantime, I'll wish everyone a sweet and kosher Passover. --Leifern 14:11, 2005 Apr 22 (UTC)
[edit] Is marriage a requirement for rabbi ?
Does one have to get married before one can become a rabbi ?
- No, but most people seem to think that it's preferable if they are. --Leifern 15:48, 2005 Apr 26 (UTC)
[edit] No mention of Talmid [דימלת] or the Rabbi’s Talmidim [םידימלת]
Is this by design? Rgordey 23:12, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Sacred Myth Versus History
- "Members of the Sanhedrin all had to received their semicha ("ordination" derived in an uninterrupted line of transmission from Moses) yet they were more frequently referred to as judges (dayanim) akin to the Shoftim or "Judges" as in the Book of Judges, rather than rabbis."
Rabbis didn't exist, in any conventional sense, during the period of the Tanakh (roughly 1500 BCE to 150 BCE). From Pirkei Avot 1:1 we get a pseudo-history of the passing down of authority through the ages. I understand Pirkei Avot as part of what I might call "sacred history" which is different from history. "Sacred history" isn't any less "true" or valuable for an adherent of the tradition or even someone outside the tradition. But I don't think "sacred history" is what the Wikipedia is meant to provide. I'm really new to this endeavor, so I'm reticent to jump in with changes; but I do want to get the conversation going here. Sam* 18:32, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
- "He who learns from his fellowman a single chapter, a single halakha, a single verse, a single Torah statement, or even a single letter, must treat him with honor. For so we find with David King of Israel, who learned nothing from Ahitophel except two things, yet called him his teacher (in Hebrew: rabbo -- meaning his "rabbi"), his guide, his intimate, as it is said: 'You are a man of my measure, my guide, my intimate' (Psalms 55:14). One can derive from this the following: If David King of Israel who learned nothing from Ahitophel except for two things, called him his teacher (i.e. rabbo -- his "rabbi"), his guide, his intimate, one who learns from his fellowman a single chapter, a single halakha, a single verse, a single statement, or even a single letter, how much more must he treat him with honor. And honor is due only for Torah, as it is said: 'The wise shall inherit honor' (Proverbs 3:35), 'and the perfect shall inherit good' (Proverbs 28:10). And only Torah is truly good, as it is said: 'I have given you a good teaching, do not forsake My Torah' (Psalms 128:2). (Ethics of the Fathers 6:3)"
This quote is totally out of place. Is its purpose to show that the leaders, like King David, of earlier periods played similar roles in society as rabbis did later, or they had similar kinds of authority? Maybe the section should be renamed, "Antecedents to the Rabbis." I still don't think that quote, however, is illustrative of anything useful here. This quote is more about the role of teaching in the bonding of human relationships than it is about the role of rabbis or their antecedents. Sam* 18:52, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
- Well, Orthodox Jews still believe that the concept of "Rabbi" originated with Moses, who is called "Moshe Rabbeinu" (Moses, our Rabbi). The quote from Avot 1:1 needs to remain, perhaps introduced with "According to the Orthodox POV"). I agree that Avot 6:3 has little to do with this article. JFW | T@lk 21:48, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
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- • I think adding, "According to the Orthodox POV" would be great. Avot 1:1 is not quoted in the article at all. I made the connection here in the "Talk" to that. I think by saying something like, "Many Orthodox Jews take Avot 1:1 literally and therefore base the evolution of rabbis back to Moses." And then quote the actual Avot 1:1 text. I still think the title "Antecedents to the Rabbis" is much better because the term "rabbi" appears nowhere in the Tanakh. Sam* 22:47, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
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- Sam: One cannot adds words "orthodox POV" because the word "Orthodox" was invented by Reform Jews in Germany (Deutschland !!!) who hate/d the "ol-fashioned" so-called "Orthodox". IZAK 12:24, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
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- Sam: I was the one who worked on, and inserted, this classic and very reliable "quote" into the article, and the point of it was to find a RELIABLE written source where the word "rabbi" is mentioned --because you are correct it's not mentioned in the Tanakh since the leaders of those times were Judges, Kings, Priests, and Prophets, but they performed functions that "in essence" where what rabbis since the demise of Judges/Kings/Priests/Prophets are supposed to have done and should be doing: Being the Torah leaders of the Jewish people. It's a continuum of Jewish leadership (and we should not look to Christian "clergy" as examples, because it's the other way around historically: Judaism taught the gentiles and not the other way around). However, by calling this reference a "myth", albeit a "sacred myth", you are revealing your own anti-Orthodox POV, so choose your words with caution. The source for the quote is clearly cited at its end where it belongs as "(Ethics of the Fathers 6:3)" and it's hard to understand why it bothers you so much that a true primary source that has been around for about two thousand years is quoted. The point of it is that it's an early example of the word rabbo -- his "rabbi" inserted by the rabbinic sages of the Mishnah themsleves into the text of the Mishnah proper, revealing a very early CONCEPTUALIZATION of the notion, and expression of the WORD "Rabbi" as viewed and expressed by the early rabbinic masters themselves. It's not "about the role of teaching in the bonding of human relationships" (blah, blah, blah) as such, although it overlaps with that subject -- because what, after all, are rabbis supposed to be if not TEACHERS and educators of Torah, Talmud, and Halakha? (Private aside: Yea, I know, Reform rabbits talk about "human ethics" all day and all night long and ignore the fact that their flock is not listening to them. Now that last comment IS my POV but as you may notice, I will never stick that into an article, so don't get confused by what you may believe to be true with what is actually true.) Shabbat Shalom Sam*! IZAK 12:19, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] "Modern Orthodox trends in female leadership" Section Should be Deleted
That section is totally out of place in this article. That subject is relevant to the following existing article: Role of women in Judaism. I'm new to Wikipedia and am hesitant to delete. What do others think? Sam* 02:58, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
- Be bold. As long as you explain why you are moving it few people will disagree with you. At the same time, please consider that something needs to be mentioned about women in non-Rabbinic leadership roles. JFW | T@lk 08:31, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Sam: Firstly, you should not be too bold at this stage, rather look and learn first. Secondly, there were a number of people who fought hard and long to insert this section here and they might have a fit if you just take it out. Thirdly, there will always be an overlap between subjects, and there are various ways to create that connection, sometimes it's by subject-matter in the article, sometimes it's by internal wikilinks, sometimes its by "see also", or by "external links" that can double as citations. So be carefull whatever you do , especially in a volatile subject such as this that will get the attention of others. IZAK 11:47, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Orthodox vs Conservative rabbinical educations
I can't say that I've studied this issue in much detail, but it seems to me that the key distinction between Orthodox, haredi, and Conservative rabbinical education is related to some superficially subtle but nevertheless important distinctions. One is a distinction between (for lack of a better term) the yeshiva and university format; point of departure (singular Talmud vs. broader sources); and perhaps, most complicated, the basis for making halachic determinations. I think that saying that one has more or less of one or the other is a bit misleading - Orthodox rabbis (particularly among the haredi) often take on great pastoral duties; and Conservative rabbis certainly are educated in how to conduct halachic deliberations. --Leifern 17:55, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Conservative recognition of Progressive marriages and conversions
"Often, Conservative Rabbis do not recognize Reform and Reconstructionist marriages and conversions." Do we have a citation on this? I've never heard of a Progressive marriage not being considered valid by a Conservative rabbi (which would be very odd given the deference Conservatives show to civil divorce law), and I can cite sources from reputable Conservative halachic authorities (like the Chancellor of JTS) that Progressive conversions are to be considered valid if done with proper Bet Din, mikveh, and bris. I think the CJLS has spoken on that as well, but I'm hesitant to edit this without consultation. --Savant1984 01:43, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
- Savant, could you please define your use of the word "Progressive"? I recall it being the UK equivalent of the US's "Conservative", in which case Conservative might very well accept Progressive, while still rejecting Reform and Reconstructionist.--Keeves 04:12, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
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- "Progressive" in the international sense, as in the World Union of Progressive Judaism. The Reform, Liberal, Progressive, and Reconstructionist movements (of the US, UK, Europe, et al.) are all "Progressive" in the international nomenclature. In the UK, the Masorti movement is the sister of the US Conservative movement ("Masorti" is used, I believe, everywhere outside the US). Progressive/Liberal is the wing of the international Progressive movement in the UK more closely resembling American Reform, while UK Reform is considerably more traditional. --Savant1984 00:48, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
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- Thanks for the clarification! --Keeves 03:34, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
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- I know about 30 Conservative rabbis and I don't know of one who doesn't accept Reform and Reconstructionist marriages and conversions. I've changed the language there, it now reads something like "Most Conservative rabbis accept Ref and Recon marriages and conversions, some do not." Sam* 04:58, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
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- I think that's pretty good for the most part, though I think that it's more than just coincidence that Conservative rabbis tend to respect Progressive conversions. From the material I've read, it's a pretty well-established convention as long as they're done halachically (i.e., mikveh and bris with legitimative bet din). I think our language should reflect that here. (Progressive Jews claiming Jewish status under the one-parent descent resolution are a different case, of course.) I'm still not sure what "recognising" a Progressive marriage means, though. As long as two Jews were there to see the man give a ring to the woman, the couple could've had it done by a judge (or, for that matter, a minister or imam) and it would be a halachic marriage, as I understand the law on this point. --Savant1984 22:14, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "rabbi" is not capitalized unless it is a proper noun
I've gone and lower cased some capitalized "Rabbis" and also some capitalized "Movements" when they shouldn't have been. My friend Rabbi Joe Smith is capitalized. A bunch of Reform rabbis are not, unless they are members of a band maybe, "Reform Rabbis Who Rap" or something like that :) Sam* 05:02, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Page needs more non-Orthodox information and links
While in general the page is well-done, it seems a bit heavily slanted towards Orthodoxy. Reform and Reconstructionist are treated as if they are almost identical movements. The section on women in the rabbinate is almost all about why women can't be rabbis in the Orthodox world rather than how women are rabbis in the rest of American Judaism (I added a sentence to this in a quick edit). The links at the end have a huge list of resources on women in Orthodoxy (as does the page on the Role of women in Judaism. I have no real objection to those things being here, but approrpiate resources and information on Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, etc. Judaism should also be present. And I agree that it is an overstatement to say that Conservative rabbis don't accept liberal and progressive Jewish marriages and conversions. Sure it happens, but not that often - and the section mentioning patrilineal descent leads us to that issue (although that page is in great need of Jewish info being added). MKaiserman 14:07, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Women as rabbis
I restored the section IZAK deleted. It seems well-written and relevant, and since it didn't delete anything by being there, I'm not sure how it "pushes aside" 2000 years of history. Why shouldn't it be in here? --Savant1984 18:32, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
It was not pushed aside, but placed later in the article, as it belongs. It is a much more recent innovation than any of the sections that preceded it. I am restoring IZAK's re-ordering; not deletion. Avi 21:32, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks Avi. Correct, I did not delete anything about the lady rabbis, I just placed them in better chronological and developmental order.\IZAK 06:31, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
- My mistake. Sorry there. --Savant1984 21:26, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] But be not ye called Rabbi
Where could we mention Matthew 23:8?
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.
It could conceivably be mentioned as an early witness to the title. In fact, there were some articles by Hershel Shanks on the origin of the term rabbi, and whether its use in Matthew is anachronistic. See here: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=hershel+shanks+rabbi&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Search
[edit] Copyright
Barbara Shack 15:04, 13 April 2006 (UTC)The three images of Rabbis which I added are all copyright. Somebody who understands copyright law needs to decide if they can stay.
Barbara Shack 13:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)Probably the photos are copyright because people don’t want them used in anti-Semitic ways. They are not anti-Semitic here.
Sam* 03:30, 8 August 2006 (UTC) Don't the Wikipedia rules prohibit the posting of copyrighted photographs? There are many reasons to copyright a photograph. By guessing what the reason is (fear of anti-semitic uses) and then proclaiming this situation doesn't apply to this context is total guess and also completely irrelevant. If it's copyrighted it shouldn't be used here.
[edit] Use of word dayan
I'm not sure "dayan" should be redirected to "rabbi". anyone? gevaldik! 16:46, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] A new decision by Rabbis
I have read it on a newspaper article [2] that the Chamber of Rabbis made a new decisive statement which is shortly: "civilian deaths are acceptable in the war conditions." So is this a reflection of NAZIs of 1940s under the name of Israel?(85.99.132.140 09:17, 25 July 2006 (UTC))
- Sorry, I can't read Turkish. But this is not the forum for such questions anyway. This is where we discuss what's appropriate for Wikipedia articles. Good luck in your research. --Keeves 21:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
There is no such thing as a Chamber of Rabbis, and anyways the Geneva Convention permits killing human shields (yes, it really does). But don't let facts get in the way.Cgoldfed 06:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Becoming a rabbi: To have or not to have ordination
There's really nothing in this section that isn't already found earlier in the article, and now it is becoming something of a soapbox. I'd like to delete it entirely, if anyone will second the idea. --Keeves 21:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
The paragraph starts by raising an interesting point. The highest ideal for Torah study is "lishma" for its own sake. Being a professional rabbi in many ways makes studying "for its own sake" impossible. I think that is an interesting point which could probably fit in elsewhere in the article. But then the paragraph goes in other directions that aren't relevant to the stated section title, and I agree with Keeves at least for the latter part of the paragraph that it should be deleted. Sam* 03:42, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Formatting Problem Caused by Rabbi Pics
In Safari and Firefox (latest version of both) on a Mac running tiger -- those rabbi pics are causing havoc with the edit links, making them impossible to use for much of the article. I have to click on the "edit this page" link at the top and then search thrugh the whole page to get to where I want to edit. Sam* 03:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
- Absolutely. I've removed the images for now. Someone should place one image per section, or so, to even out this mess. -- Wikipedical 22:07, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
- My first reaction was that removing all the pics entirely was going way too far to solve the problem. But then I realized that I don't have Safari or Firefox, so I don't know how bad it was for you, so I really can't judge. So here's and alternate idea: does anyone know how to position the pics horizontally across the screen? --Keeves 03:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)