Talk:Raëlian Church

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Nomination date: 2007-03-23
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Date of review: 2007-02-17
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Contents

[edit] "atheist"?

Since when is this cult "atheist"?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.142.24.242 (talk • contribs).

_______

Answer to the person's question:

Raelian Sites:

http://www.thereisnogod.info

http://www.thereisnogod.info/English/Giordano.php

http://www.sowoman.org/

http://www.clitoraid.org/

eric_bolou's photos

Because they believe that the universe wasn't created but has always existed, Raelians are not deist.

Kmarinas86 00:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

http://www.thereisnogod.info/English/Clitocracy.php

Kmarinas86 01:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion of Edits

[edit] NPOV

Somebody else put this up saying that there isn't a neutral point of view

"The neutral point of view

The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly, but not asserted. All significant published points of view are presented, not just the most popular one. It should not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions.

As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints. It is a point of view that is neutral - that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject.

Debates are described, represented, and characterized, but not engaged in. Background is provided on who believes what and why, and which view is more popular. Detailed articles might also contain the mutual evaluations of each viewpoint, but studiously refrain from stating which is better. One can think of unbiased writing as the cold, fair, analytical description of all relevant sides of a debate. When bias towards one particular point of view can be detected the article needs to be fixed."

[edit] Bias checklist

Types of bias include:

  • Class bias, including bias favoring one social class and bias ignoring social or class divisions.

No. Raelians come from many diverse social classes.

  • Commercial bias, including advertising, coverage of political campaigns in such a way as to favor corporate interests, and the reporting of issues to favor the interests of the owners of the news media.

No. The Raelian Movement is not a corporate entity.

  • Ethnic or racial bias, including racism, nationalism and regionalism.

No. Raelians are against racism, nationalism, and regionalism.

  • Gender bias, including sexism and heteronormativity.

No. Raelians are both male and female are against sexism.

  • Geographical bias which may for example describe a dispute as it is conducted in one country without knowing that the dispute is framed differently elsewhere.

No. Raelians are from around the world, so it makes no sense characterize them as coming from one geographic region.

  • Nationalistic bias: favoring the interests or views of a particular nation.

No. Raelians are against nationalism.

  • Political bias, including bias in favor of or against a particular political party, policy or candidate.

No. No political parties are metioned in the article.

  • Religious bias, including bias in which one religious viewpoint is given preference over others.

No. No religions are compared in this article.

  • Sensationalism, which is bias in favor of the exceptional over the ordinary. This includes the practice whereby exceptional news may be overemphasized, distorted or fabricated to boost commercial ratings.

Look at Wikipedia is not paper:

Wikipedia is not a soapbox or a vehicle for propaganda and advertising. Therefore, Wikipedia articles are not:

  1. Propaganda or advocacy of any kind. Of course, an article can report objectively about such things, as long as an attempt is made to approach a neutral point of view. You might wish to go to Usenet or start a blog if you want to convince people of the merits of your favorite views. You can also use Wikinfo which promotes a "sympathetic point of view" for every article. Wikipedia was not made for opinion, it was made for fact.
  2. Self-promotion. You are free to write about yourself or projects you have a strong personal involvement in. However, do remember that the standards for encyclopedic articles apply to such pages just like any other, including the requirement to maintain a neutral point of view, which is difficult when writing about yourself. Creating overly abundant links and references to autobiographical articles is unacceptable. See Wikipedia:Autobiography, Wikipedia:Vanity, and Wikipedia:Notability.
  3. Advertising. Articles about companies and products are acceptable if they are written in an objective and unbiased style. Furthermore, all article topics must be third-party verifiable, so articles about very small "garage" or local companies are not likely to be acceptable. External links to commercial organizations are acceptable if they can serve to identify major corporations associated with a topic (see finishing school for an example). Please note Wikipedia does not endorse any businesses and it does not set up affiliate programs. See also WP:CORP for guidelines on corporate notability.

Yes. So the solution is to implement other views into the article, and to remove unnecessary adjectives and sugary statements. But some of the statements in the article are factual. Getting on to it. I will go first.Kmarinas86 05:11, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I have done what so far helps to neutralize the article. Perhaps its not bitter enough for your tastes. As you cut out the parts you don't like, paste them here for reference.Kmarinas86 05:19, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Problem 1
Problem 2
Problem 3

If there is no response from anyone else by 12 August 2006, I will tentatively remove the neutrality tag.Kmarinas86 23:47, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Nah. I'm not going to wait that long ;) Kmarinas86 19:07, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

FYI, I removed the following phrases and statements

Their contributions are often marked by the femininity of the presentation, and as a result of such, they often attract positive attention from onlookers.

which are always positive.

In the US, in Raëlian Femininity events do not attract negative influences, but instead positive ones. The women have noticed that people around them treat them with respect, despite the fact that they stand out very much, and this reflects to what extent they are achieving their function within the movement.

Like most lifeguarding of beaches, the purpose of this function of the Raelian Movement is to make life richer for others, not to ends one's own precious life.

Kmarinas86 19:57, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Now in addition, I removed the following statements either for NPOV or eliminating redundancy:

Women who choose to become Raelian Angels work to develop their own feminine qualities in order to teach others to grow in the same way.

These women put their interior and exterior beauty at the service of their Creators, their Prophet, and also of Humanity, watching over their comfort at every point.

Until the arrival of the Elohim, only Raël is present; consequently, they must see to his well-being.

Kmarinas86 20:06, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Another one (for redundancy)

Raelians often use the color pink to express their femininity and sexuality.

Kmarinas86 20:08, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "said to be"

Comments, complaints, and suggestions of the "said to be" phrase as used in the article go here.

[edit] NPOV tag

I said in the history section:

 If you add the NPOV back state give at least 2 paragraphs explaining why in the dicussion section BEFORE you add the tag. I have changed the grammar. I added more critical sections. I need reasons!

So I haven't type two paragraphs in the history section. But I have put many new paragraphs in the article. Maybe we can call those "my reasons"? Thanks.Kmarinas86 03:28, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The reason why I think it is important for you to give your reasons is so that I know exactly what's necessary in your opinion for NPOV. Otherwise, I'll guess. On that basis, that is why I have removed the tag temporarily. But please, don't let me guess anymore, and just give me your reason, if you don't, I'll keep removing the tag after I think improvements have reached a critical point.Kmarinas86 03:48, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I didn't forget the reasons you, ________, gave earlier. The article no longer sounds like an advertisment, and for the past few days, the article sounds like it was narrated by a non-Raelian - this is suggested by the skeptical sounding phrase "is said to be" which make it easier to take the "Raelian facts" with a grain of salt.Kmarinas86 03:58, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Heared stuff

i heared that rael the french cult leader asking always his follower to donate money to him 1% of the income of his follower " the vectim" to his direct bank account

This information is riduclous firstly, by saying "asking always ____" when is physically impossible to keeping asking the same thing all the time, secondly, asking is simply asking, not a obligation, perhaps not even a recommendation for certain individuals in particular...Kmarinas86 01:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

and another 6% of the follower income to his movement account and he still have access to this account too.

 this mean he is asking every one follow him for 7% of thier income as donation. we never saw this money used to help humanity it is only to support his sexual and vip life.
One knows that just because they heard so? It is stated as such, just as I can "state" or even "admit" that Bush is a former socialist from Argentina even when many people will know that's not true. The thing with this is that for some of the uninitiated, the first thing they think is the thing they believe and whatever else they see that counters that idea they will think of as wrong.Kmarinas86 01:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

he also asking the young female to sign a contract , please aske any one of the cult leader follower about it ????

on the followingrael angel order he asking his follower to give him sex without limitation oral anal or whatever , please any raelian discuss this order with us here other wise please publish it on the from page of the wiki

I'll take the bet. ;). For the people just seeing this, here's the link http://www.google.com/search?q=%22If+almost+all+applicants+will+be+accepted+as+Angels%22 at first glance, the phrases "RAEL's Angel Order" and "Dear Angels" already sounds ridiclous. Rael wouldn't call it "RAEL's Angel Order", it's called the "Order of Angels", duh. Also see: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22gold+ribbon%22+rael+OR+raelian (I found no verification of any connection between the "Order of Angels" and the phrase "gold ribbon".) May I point out this, the third option, "choosen", is not even a real word. It does not even make sense as a listed choice!Kmarinas86 01:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
                       RAEL’s Angels Order

Dear Angels,

From May 57 a.H., application will offer three choices :

May 57 a.H. is May 2003.Kmarinas86 01:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Angel
  • Golden Ribbon
  • Choosen

If almost all applicants will be accepted as Angels, Golden Ribbons will be severely selected.

Being a Golden Ribbon means being ready to be at ELOHIMs and Prophets service without any restrictions, including sexually. So those who are actually Golden Ribbons and are not willing to comply with these requirements, by choice or because they are engaged in an exclusivity relationship with their sexual partners, will have to abandon their Golden Ribbon and be simple Angels. All Angels have to fill this new application form to choose.

It is unthinkable that when our Beloved Creators arrive, some Golden Ribbon welcome them very closely but refuse to have close relationship with them. The privilege to be in close contact with them implicate to be open to everything without any restrictions and without the disrespectful attitude of refusing intimate contacts.

Per the philosophy of Raelians, It is NOT disrespectful to refuse intimate contacts. "You're welcome to come and you're welcome to go" as Rael says. Besides, in the case of the very effeminate Elohim, what exactly are they going to do to such people of they don't comply? There are no jails (and obviously no death penalty) on the Elohim planet according to Rael.Kmarinas86 02:12, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The privilege to be close to them should be reserved to those who are deeply in love with them, of a religious love, ready to give them everything without any restriction, including their own life if it was necessary to protect them.

It is much better to be a "simple " angel than to be one day in a position to refuse anything to the ELOHIM or the Prophets. Those choosing to be simple Angels are also very important even if they don't wish to give everything, they have the beautiful mission to support, help organize and take care of the Golden Ribbons. They should not at all feel any shame or frustration of not accepting to give everything. It is much better to never put yourself in the terrible situation of being forced one day to do something you don't like or insulting our Creators and Prophets by refusing close contacts with them.

Whatever. Raelians marriages are not eternal contracts, they can divorce of course (and they do this without the chain of guilt, contempt, etc.).Kmarinas86 01:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

It is very important to really ask yourself what you want to give. If the answer is "all without any limitation", then you can make application to be Golden Ribbon. And devote yourself totally to love the ELOHIM and the Prophets. Even being ready to give your own life.

Of course the Choosen Ones, being or not Golden Ribbons, fall automatically in this category. So, if you are a Chosen One, you don't have to fill this new application to choose again between normal Angels and Golden Ribbons as you already are ready to give everything for the Elohim and the Prophets without any limitation.

Very soon new training seminars will take place for those accepted as Golden Ribbons to prepare them for the most important day of our History. This will take place before the next seminars in order for those who select it to be ready to take care of our Beloved Prophet if they wish to.

Utterly ridiculous. In reality, there is no such "important day of history" as the one implied by this statement. This text was probably written by some whatever who believes that such a day would be the day that Raelians commit suicide - that ain't happening however. That's ridiculous!Kmarinas86 01:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

One more time, it's up to you to choose to have the privilege to be in close contact with the Last Prophet and to serve him by sending your application to become a Golden Ribbon. Remember that only Golden Ribbons will be able to take care of our beloved Prophet which will be the best training possible for the day of our dreams, the arrival of our Creators, remembering that they watch us through his eyes ! Being close to Him is being close to Them ! If you prefer to be simple Angels, that's also great as you will have a very important place to make our Angel's Order being efficient in promoting femininity and supporting Golden Ribbons. So, think about it and select without any pressure what you think is better for you ! Please send it back to us as soon as possible as a special seminar for Golden Ribbon will be organize soon ... The summer seminars are coming soon and we must be ready

It is easy to imagine how some of the article may have been edited into what would otherwise be a legitmate letter. In fact, what one could do is take what is above and add a new message at the beginning of the letter saying many slanderous and ridiculous claims about Metro bus services, then send it somewhere else on the internet claiming it to be the original - and have some few individuals believe that it is so. There is absoutely no possible way for proof of the authencity of this text to be available on the web. Even if it existed on some site such as this, it is easy to concieve that it was not the original.Kmarinas86 01:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
In the previous comments I have made, I was responding to the possible inneundo of the statements, not the actual intended meaning of those statements, whatever that might be.Kmarinas86 10:46, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

i have some questions?

1- does rael and his guides send emailes and aske his follower verbally for donation of 7 % of thier annual income 1% to rael direct bank account and 6 % to his movement account and of course he has direct access to both it is true or not ????

NoKmarinas86 08:33, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

he aske his 60 thouthand follower for annual donation of 7 % of their income ????

No, not 60 "thoutand" not even 60 thousand, try again =PKmarinas86 08:33, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

2- does the Golden Ribbon angels have to give sex to rael without limitation " and cannot say no " according to the order at the end of this page ?? is it true or not

No, there no such thing as "golden ribbon". It's made up.Kmarinas86 08:33, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

3- does donation of money to rael will help the humanity??

It helps a human =PKmarinas86 08:33, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

4- did rael donated money to any one in need sick persons poor african or war or discrimination vectems ????

Perhaps.Kmarinas86 08:33, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

5-is it true that rael failed in the school and left because he was not interested in science " he stated that in his book " final message" ? he tried to become entertainer and failed and he got the idea of cloning from movie about the cloning in 1973 written by lamar card , lamar wrote about cloning before rael recieved his message after he failed to become entertainer or car racer.

Which school? They taught science? He did? oF course he did.. wtf.. LAMeR? Correlation is a false cause. Quitting entertainment is not the same as failing, and he is still a singer and entertainer in any case http://www.messagefromthedesigners.org/download.php/e107_plugins/raelmeetfriends/e107_plugins/faq/e107_plugins/vstore/e107_plugins/raelscience_menu/e107_plugins/links_page/rael_content/e107_plugins/raeladdresses_menu/e107_plugins/raelmeetfriends/e107_plugins/raelseminar_menu/e107_plugins/raeltv_menu/e107_plugins/raelscience_menu/rael_content/rael_summary.php?list.32, stop thinking in 1970s man that is so lame ya LAMAR =P. And wtf, he was an actual racecar driver who won some medals, how can one fail to be a racecar driver by being one - explain that? You're other statements appear to have "as much" universal support as your last one. "Regards"Kmarinas86 08:33, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Automated Peer Review

[edit] (cur) (last) 18:24, 15 November 2006 Sfacets (Talk | contribs) (Peacock terms)

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    • might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper citations (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please strike this comment).
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    • Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
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[edit] (cur) (last) 12:12, 20 November 2006 Kmarinas86 (Talk | contribs)

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[edit] (cur) (last) 22:17, 25 November 2006 Kmarinas86 (Talk | contribs)

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[edit] Sources

Why are so many sources provided under the 'demographics' section (and elsewhere)? I invite the user who added them (Kmarinas86?) to chose only those which are relevant, since the reference section is really geting out of hand, and is affecting navigation. Sfacets 19:39, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


Kmarinas86, if you want to insert that the organization is regarded as a cult, then you have to provide reliable sources - a Google search by which you show how many results show up for the term "cult" is merely your interpretation of those numbers, and has no basis in fact. Please provide specific references or remove the claim. Sfacets 05:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


A cult is a cohesive group of people (sometimes a relatively small and recently founded religious movement, sometimes numbering in the hundreds of thousands) devoted to beliefs or practices...Its separate status may come about...due to its novel belief system. Text cut and pasted from Wikipedia. I think that describes the Raelian Church fairly well, right? Kagechikara

A) Wikipedia is not a reliable source. B) Deciding whether a groups meets a certain criteria is usually original research. It's better to simply report what others have decided. -Will Beback · † · 06:55, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Failed "good article" nomination

This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of February 17, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: Fail There are numerous stubby paragraphs of only a sentence or two, and a great overuse of blockquotes. The organization of the article is also generally poor.
2. Factually accurate?: Fail The number of citations is impressive, but I would like to see more of them from sources outside of the church, in accordance with WP:RS.
3. Broad in coverage?: Fail. While the article seems decently broad, it has some sections that could be consided non-notable trivia. Are the church's links with Hugh Hefner and Betty Dodson really worthy of so much attention?
4. Neutral point of view?: Fail The tone of the article is very pro-church, and the criticisms section is very diluted. Definitely needs more work to become NPOV.
5. Article stability? Pass No problems here.
6. Images?: Questionable I'm not an expert on this aspect (apologies!) but some of the fair use rationales seem a bit dubious.

When these issues are addressed, the article can be resubmitted for consideration. Thanks for your work so far. --MLilburne 09:15, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flawed computation?

Currently there are about 170 guides,[20] meaning that the mandated component of the effective salary of the Level 6 guide is less than 170% times the average salary of Raelian guides in the world, or less than the salary of an entry-level accountant in the United States.

Not sure how one came up with this 170%... Was it by multiplying the 1% each member pays to level-6 guides, times the number of level-6 guides (170)? If so, the computation is obviously deeply flawed. Why doesn't it take the number of members (65,000) into account?

65,000 * 1% / 170 = 382%

Gb1291 05:27, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

That's how it was done. No, not deeply flawed, just inaccurate ;). It says mandated, the rest is not. But I'm sure that his salary may be a bit more than that. I've been to their meetings, and I've paid them not a penny. As the inner circle says, the contribution is voluntary.
“ http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint/Touchstone/Raelianism-Campbell.htm

The Raelian Religion is divided into two main structures to assist its continued spread. These two structures are the National Raelian Movements, which exist in separate countries and somewhat serve as outreach programs, and the International Raelian Movement. One can join a National Raelian Movement without sharing the beliefs of Raelianism and without paying any membership fees.

 ”
I understand your concern. There is probably no single reliable source when it comes to these, unless, for example, some journalist with high ranking has entered the movement and actually became a member and reported that verily that there is no charge for being a member. I believe that given the time that has passed, this has already been done, but I have not found that respective article. Well then, let's put it off for later...Kmarinas86 15:27, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
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