Talk:Rùm

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The article was moved from Rum to Rùm following a request at WP:RM and the vote below.

[edit] Requested move

The Ordnance Survey uses the spelling Rùm (with the grave accent) at all scales.

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Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• Support as per nomination. --Stemonitis 08:43, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
• Support: OS usage should generally be taken as standard. Grinner 10:20, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
• Support -- Snalwibma 11:08, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
• Sùppòrt — Gareth Hughes 11:28, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose - Sans diacritic is the "most common name" by almost 1000 to 1. Compare [1] to [2]. Diacritics aren't generally a part of common English. Niteowlneils 16:11, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose: Use English not Scottish Gaelic --Henrygb 20:29, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose - common usage is without the accent, and that is what is used by the Scottish Executive [3] [4], SNH [5] and the BBC [6] [7]. --Vclaw 20:58, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. I think this is a mischievous request. The Scottish MP for Rum uses the term Rum on his Scottish Paliamentry page "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber is the second largest constituency in the country. It stretches from the islands of Eigg, Rum and Canna on the west coast to the seaside town of Nairn on the east coast."[8] -Philip Baird Shearer 16:22, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
• Support. I think the Welsh analogy (see below) is very interesting. Stefán Ingi (talk) 11:09, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
• Support. I'm a bit divided but, like Stefán, I'll buy the Welsh analogy. I'm also sympathetic to the argument that the accent is a nice disambiguation device. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 16:01, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
• Support as per Haukurth. u p p l a n d 16:40, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Diacritics in English are a bit of a fad. If the grave accent is used in Scots gaelic and there is an encyclopedia for that language, then of course the accent should be used in that encyclopedia's article for Rum, but here it should not. --Tony Sidaway^t 10:42, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
• Support Flares 13:50, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
• Support Joe I 01:57, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
• Sûppôrt, naturally. ナイトスタリオン ✉ 07:18, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

To respond to Niteowlneils, "be precise when necessary". Rùm is unambiguous; Rum has several meanings. Stemonitis 16:39, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

• I agree with Stemonitis. Also, I think the Ordnance-Survey argument is very strong. If there is such a thing as a standard for place names in Britain, surely the OS is it. Don't believe everything a Yahoo or Google search tells you! Snalwibma 17:18, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
• Look at an English and Gaelic parallel text from Scottish National Heritage[9], and ask yourself which one is suitable for en:wikipedia --Henrygb 00:49, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
• I would still hold that OS usage represents the "authorative" for UK placenames. Grinner 09:27, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

  Do you realy think that the OS is more authoritative than the Local council "The Highland Council"[10], The Scottish Parliament, The Scottish Executive, Scottish Natural Heritage[11], The Department of Trade and Industry[12], The Joint Nature Conservation Committee Rum - Special Area of Conservation - SAC, etc, etc? --Philip Baird Shearer 16:41, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

• shouldn't it be Rùm, Scotland rather than Rùm? -- Zondor 16:25, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

We don't usually keep geographic locations at "Location, country" if it doesn't cause confusion. E.g. Funen not Funen, Denmark, Isle of Wight not Isle of Wight, England. The reason why it is currently at Rum, Scotland is that Rum is the drink and it is considered more prominent. Stefán Ingi (talk) 16:35, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

so its different between countries (cf. Australia - Wikipedia:Naming conventions (places)). -- Zondor 17:31, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

• I slightly resent the "mischievous" appellation. I chose not to simply move the article without asking because I was aware that it might be controversial (!). It seemed fairer to allow a discussion first, even if it meant the article ending up at a location that I wouldn't have preferred (as seems likely). --Stemonitis 16:46, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

• As far as I can see there live around 30 people on this island. It therefore completely escapes me why the MSP for these 30 people is a final authority on what the name of the island is. I know I wouldn't ask my MSP what is the name of the street I live in eventhough he has around 100 voters there, I'd much rather consult a map which is what Stemonitis did. (If I wanted a larger bus stop in my street then perhaps my MSP might be the man to consult. :) Stefán Ingi (talk) 23:51, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

• "Mischievous" is very unfair. The suggestion by Stemonitis is surely an honest attempt to identify the best title for the article, which at least deserves serious consideration. In fact, I find the argument for Rùm quite compelling! Snalwibma 00:42, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

For the record. See Wikipedia:Naming policy poll There are cases when the official name of a location (generally cities) is different than what most English speakers call it. Current wikipedia policy is that the more common name should be used. ... The purpose of this poll is to reaffirm or change this policy. ... Agree 45 Change 18, Abstain 7, spoilt 5. --Philip Baird Shearer 09:49, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I see this as less of a naming issue, and more an orthographic one. Everyone calls it the same thing, except that many/most people omit the accent in writing. I have a feeling that this vote would have been less divided (and perhaps less divisive) if it hadn't had the issue of accented letters in it. In Wales, the native spelling is used almost everywhere now (even in non-Welsh words, like Caernarfonshire). People have accepted that the names of Welsh places are often in the Welsh language, and should be spelt accordingly, even in English, except where an English alternative (and not just an alternative spelling) exists (Swansea ≠ Abertawe, but Carnarvon ≈ Caernarfon). I see no reason why the same should not be true of Scotland (Rùm ≈ Rum) and nor, seemingly, does the OS. But never mind, it seems we won't reach 60% anyway. --Stemonitis 10:40, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I disagree, because Scots Gaelic is spoken by approximately 1% of Scotland's population, and all of these speakers are bilingual in English and their mother tongue. In Wales, Welsh is spoken by approximately between 25% of the Wales' population, and they are also bilingual in both English and Welsh. So I think the comparison between Scots Gaelic and Welsh is absurd. 17:02, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I think this was a very thoughtprovoking comment. Stefán Ingi (talk) 11:09, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Rum is a drink. Therefore the place name needs to be disambiguated from it. We could do this by adding extra information: Rum, Scotland, Rum Island or Rum (island). However, in this case we do have a compelling alternative, we can follow the lead of Gaellic and the OS and use Rùm: simple and elegant. --Gareth Hughes 16:16, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

We shouldn't let disambiguation dictate the spelling of words. If it's to be moved to Rùm, it should be on its own merits, not just for disambiguation purposes. (Note: I have no opinion on the matter either way :) sjorford #£@%&$?! 10:25, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. --Stemonitis 08:02, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

What is going on here, the name of this island/electorate is called Rum (NO GRAVE) in English not Rùm. We don't use the German spelling for Munich in English so why use Scots Gaelic spelling when nearly every publication in English uses the graveless name. I think this vote was halted prematurely. Marco79 16:39, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I closed this vote several days after is should have been closed, so no, it was not closed prematurely. Also, as you know very well because you have been active in these discussions before, you cannot take Munich as an example to support your cause because that particular city has an English name, Munich, which is distinct from its German name, München. Same goes for Nuremberg for the same reasons. All, and let me stress this, all (with a single exception), other cities in Germany go by their German name, using the funky German squiggles as appropriate. The exception is of course the oft discussed White city. BTW, I'm glad you have decided to get an account, I can see you have already found use for the move button that comes with it. Stefán Ingi 16:51, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Of coarse I can, how dare you tell me how to spell the name (Rum) that is adoped by major institutions in Scotland and the British government. I think the German name of Munich is a very suitable equivalent. Marco79 17:02, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

PS: Please STOP the madness.