Talk:Réseau Nord

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

France Portal

Réseau Nord is within the scope of WikiProject France, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to France and Monaco on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.

Stub

This article has been rated as stub-Class on the Project's quality scale.
(If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments, explaining the ratings and/or suggest improvements.)

Trains Portal

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Trains, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to rail transport on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.

[edit] Names of Transilien networks pages

Maybe we should make appear the word Transilien somewhere in the title. Instead of changing once again the name of the page, the best would probably to discuss here together to know which one would suit the best. As a matter of fact, the French page is named Transilien Paris-Nord. I would be inclined to call it something like this. By the way "réseau" means network in French. Maybe something like Transilien Paris-Nord network or just Transilien Paris-Nord as in French. Anyway, this should be discussed in here. :-)

Furthermore, I think the purpose of this page is to be dedicated to Gare du Nord suburban rail network. As such, I'm not sure we have to talk about long haul rail lines, which are already well-specified in the Gare du Nord article. Metropolitan 21:26 22 March 2006 (CET).

'evening. The reason I proposed the changes that have been made today (and that have jut been finalised with the removal of the last double redirect) is to harmonise parisian and in general all french rail network pages to suite SNCF's own guidelines and models. The problem originally was that there is no specific Transilien network. Transilien is only the brand name for sevices running on SNCF networks (articles that have now been created).

I believe that the current layout of articles reflects with a lot more accuracy SNC template of services, indeed if specific Transilien information should be added, it should be added to the Transilien page, not pages for things that do not exist. This means that each article has its scope narrowed to what it actually is: Réseau Nord for ALL services operating ffrom Paris Nord, not just suburban trains. Details on suburban trains (read Transilien) ought to be kept and solely to Transilien as that articles should ony refer to services, not infrastructure which is to be edited into the Réseau articles. I hope that explains the reason for both Bz2 and my decision to refocus articles on the subject and also repeats the fact that there is a differenc ebetween rail networks and services and so forth. Now, time for the pub. Regards, Captain scarlet 20:58, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Metropolitan and disagree with Captain Scarlet. These articles should be limited to Transilien services only, and not include long distance services. The articles should be renamed back to Transilien Paris Nord, Transilien Paris Montparnasse, and so on, as is the case on the French Wikipedia. The arguments used by Captain Scarlet, who has changed all articles and all links (scores of them) without even confering with other people before (!), are a bit silly. So because Transilien Nord uses lines also used by long distance trains to Lille or Dunkerque then it couldn't have its own article? It's a bit like saying that RER C cannot have its own article because RER C trains use the same tracks as the réseau Austerlitz tracks (tracks for trains going to Orléans, Toulouse, and Perpignan). That's simply silly. There are six Transilien networks, these are quite specific, they have their own tarification (carte orange zones), and they even appear specifically on Paris transport maps. Check www.ratpf.fr : click on "Plans de lignes" on the left, then scroll down a bit and click on "Tous les plans de la RATP téléchargeables", then click on "RER IdF". This is the full Paris transport map. The six Transilien networks appear each with their distinct colors. They need each their separate article on Wikipedia, distinct from long distance lines. I will revert these rash changes as soon as I have time. Metropolitan go ahead if you have time. Hardouin 21:58, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I must admit i was expecting such a reaction from Hardouin, we since our first encounter been in total opposition in regards to what transport in France is. My point of view beeing is that in the eyes of the SNCF there is no such thing as Transilien - station name. You will not find any references made on its website nor on its timetable website or on the entreprise website, that's because it does not exist. If you wish to elaborate exclusively on Transilien then Transilien is the article to do so. Réseau station name is what is used withing the SNCF to name rail networks encompassing ALL services, long haul and suburban originating or even using its lines. The case of the RER is different, and lines have had purpose built equipement put in place and is currently marketed as nothing else than RER, never the less, in the eyes of the SNCF, RER services do not possess a network réseau of their own, but use its mainstream networks. This is why whilst using the RER you will find pk signs (point kilométrique) that refer to the parisian termini, not the RER's. If you have found that all links have recently been changes, it is merely because after reflection and mere observation, the current infrastructure (which you have barely participated to) was inadequate, false and irrelevant. Finally, Transilien is not operated by the RATP, but the SNCF, RATP only operating a 50% of RER A & B using SNCF rolling stock. Therefore, any reference to RATP regarding suburban rail survices (read, not transparisian services) is irrelevant. This can be observed with thorough research, observation and cheer knowledge rather than brutal dismissal and narrow mindness. Regards, Captain scarlet 23:39 22 March 2006 (GMT)

PS: I would to add that the changes made today were not done with oversight nor with intent to antagonise anyone, it was done after reflecton and lecture of SNCF documentation. I do hope you find such information useful and that by seeing what things are you agree to the above conclusion.

Have you had a look at the RATP map I mentioned. I bet not. If you had, you would have seen that the six Transilien networks are clearly highlighted. RATP and SNCF work together through the STIF, and RATP would not have published a map if it was contradicting SNCF organization in Ile-de-France. Moreover, on the French Wikipedia there have been scores of Wikipedians that have agreed to having specific articles for the six Transilien networks, but you alone pretend to know better than scores of French Wikipedians. That's what I find particularly irritating. Have a look at these FYI: fr:Transilien Paris-Nord, fr:Transilien Paris-Est, fr:Transilien Paris-Montparnasse, etc. Hardouin 00:33, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

You can also have a look at the map on the SNCF Transilien website: [1]. This map clearly distinguishes the six Transilien lines from the long haul lines: long haul lines are shown in black, whereas Transilien Nord is in purple/brown, Transilien La Défense is in pink, Transilien Montparnasse is in emerald green, etc. Hardouin 00:45, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, personally I don't like the RER being compared with the Transilien suburban rails, but I must confess Hardouin is right on this. Transilien is not simply a brand, it's actually a service which is dependent on the STIF, as all other public transports in Paris region. The SNCF isn't the master of its Ile-de-France network, actually, decisions about that network are made by the STIF which is in charge of the developpement and the coordination of all public transportations in the region.

Furthermore Captain scarlet, I fail to see where you could have reached the conclusion there was no difference between main lines and suburban lines in the SNCF. It's not even the same body which operates both. The only thing both shares are Paris main train stations, but even there, they operate in specific tracks and platforms. Of course those tracks are along one another at the main gates of Paris, but I fail to see where's the difference here with Spanish cercanias or German S-bahn. Metropolitan 02:10, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Gentlemen, I would like to thank you for asking me to check sources I've ask you to verify to prove my sayings... A real eye opener, i'll just let that one go.

The SNCF isn't the master of its Ile-de-France network: No RFF owns the track and SNCF operates trains under its various brands: Transilien, Corail & TGV, this is done in prelude to privatisation in accordance to Brussels.

Have you had a look at the RATP map I mentioned. I bet not. If you had, you would have seen that the six Transilien networks are clearly highlighted.: I have and it is that particular website I've quoted and was asking you to verify, along with SNCF-Voyages and Entreprise-SNCF.

The only thing both shares are Paris main train stations, but even there, they operate in specific tracks and platforms.: there are few portions of line on SNCF's network used exclusively by one type of train, yes some portions of track are only used by Corail, and some others by TGV, but that's called organisation and is done to avoid slowing down Corail trains by stopping Transiliens. This has been done for 100 years long before the green leaf network had even thought about, there's really nothing new here.

As I have previously said, yes, the french articles referring to Transilien are inaccurate, if not utterly wrong. It is not because one community has decided to describe one thing one way that we have to follow its steps. We can rise from their errors and create a better, more complete set of articles. Unfortunately, you are blinded by the desire to only edit about the Transilien. If you honnestly think about how trains are run in France you will agree that it is best to have an article solely for Transilien, which already has line and operations details and other articles relating to SNCF operations, if you are not stsified by this maybe you would like to replace SNCF's réseaux by its depots which maintain all types of SNCF and RATP trains ! As I have done whilst taking to Bz2, I will be happy to recall my dear friend from the SNCF's headquarters and ask him how it is. Never the less even with the La Défense-La Verrière train, it is within St Lazare's scope of operations.

but you alone pretend to know better than scores of French Wikipedians: well I do pretend to know more about transport than you don't I, have a look at many of your tansportation edits and note the subtle differences between what services are and what they are not. You cannot change 100+ articles after having a look at the one map to base your whole theory on public transport.

there was no difference between main lines and suburban lines in the SNCF.: err, yeh it is ! It is different bodies who decide which decide when and to where services run, but it is SNCF who runs the train, regardles of which branding its trains carry, that is why I believe it is accurate to relate to SNCF's networks of operations rather than reducing the scope of the articles. Again, if you wish to exclusively edit about IDF regional trains, do so on Transilien. Quote (STIF): Il définit les conditions générales d'exploitation, détermine les itinéraires, la durée et la fréquence des services. Il crée les titres de transport et fixe les tarifs.

long haul lines are shown in black: No the lines continuing are shown in black, long-haul (Corail or Grandes-Lignes) are not shown on that map, only regional services within IDF are mentionned and several Transiliens are not comprised on that map due to their termini beeing outside the IDF region. Take Réseau Nord for example, its network begins at Paris Gare du Nord and extends west to Rouen and North to the Belgium border, including all TERs, RERs and Transiliens running on the lines within these boundaries.

As such, I'm not sure we have to talk about long haul rail lines, which are already well-specified in the Gare du Nord article.: so you plan is to have one article solely for a particular station's suburban network, leave Grandes-Lignes in the station article? I do not know if you realise but that is extremely inconsistent and is another sign of the rational though behind having a page on ALL services originating from each and every parisian station (austerlitz ommited). If we agree on carrying along your route, this would mean there would be information not only duplicated but in three articles, having Transilien in (example): Gare Montparnasse, Réseau Montparnasse and Transilien Montparnasse. What is that about honnestly ? Gare Montparnasse should relate to the building and its history and a brief on operations then Réseau Montparnasse cover and thoroughly comment on the entire operations. This would ensure token articles have not been creating for the pleasure of beeing created and ensure that each article is justified and can be categorised.

If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it. I have not edited the whole lot of articles relating to Transilien and SNCF IDF lightely and I do stand by it because I am confident of the changes I have made. Bloody hell I've lived there long enough! I know enough people in the industry and have enough sources to make sure I do: Content must not violate any copyright and must be verifiable.

Now with any kind of editing there wil be at least a fraction of users who will not be satisfied, but some themes such as this one, do have a few boffins editing mostly editing on the subject and you must not take it personnaly when another Wikipedian makes profound modifications, usr Bz2 sa that and welcomed the changes, please reflect on the matter at the least. Not only are you insulting but your comments are narrow minded and misplaced.

Instead of bickering, it would be more appropriate to endeavour to agree on a thorough new tree of articles that can encompass all operations rather than creating a particular set of article and ignore the rest. Regards, Captain Scarlet 07:20 23 March 2006 (GMT)

Captain Scarlet wrote:

and

well I do pretend to know more about transport than you don't I.

That's rather extraordinary. You pretend to know better than Metropolitan, me, and scores of French Wikipedias, and because you know better you have single-handedly moved all the articles. You didn't respect the rule for movings articles. Check: Wikipedia:Requested moves. There need to be at least a 60% consensus to move an article. So far two users are against (Metropolitan and I), and only you is for it. So there is obviously no consensus in favor of the move. Therefore I am moving the articles back to where they were. If you want to write articles about long-haul lines, you can create specific articles for each line (eg: Paris-Orléans-Limoges-Toulouse-Cerbère line), rather than create "réseau" articles, which not even French people know about. Plus there are many lines that do not fit your réseaux. The Bordeaux-Nice line, for instance, do not fit in any of your "réseaux" articles. Hardouin 12:33, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I totally dissagree with you and will until you accept your wrong doing continue to edit the articles as I have thoroughly explained.

Plus there are many lines that do not fit your réseaux.: That is because France is not divided in 5 réseaux... One that was ommited is Austerlitz. IF you wish to continue working under your own banner and respecting no organisation, do so, but I am certianly not going to leave the 5 articles opened closed. There will have to be a cohabitation of both schemes. You are rude, selfish, do not have a clue about the topic and do not accept any other Wikipedian's remark unless in accordance to your own, this is proved by the endless entries on your talk page asking to stop reverting and locking articles to keep them as you wish. I am open to discussion, leaniency and even compromise you are not and I therefore do not wish to have any doings with you until your behaviour becomes acceptable. Good day ! Captain Scarlet 12:56 23 March 2006 (GMT)

I have restored the six Transilien articles, in accordance to the majority consensus. I have left the five "réseaux" articles, although I doubt they are really useful. I doubt SNCF really works in terms of these réseaux. In any case these are totally unknown from the French public. If anything, it would be more appropriate to have TGV Atlantique or TGV Sud-Est articles rather than Réseau Montparnasse or Réseau Lyon articles. Also, to what réseau belong the Bordeaux-Nice line? or the Nantes-Lyon line? Anyway, I will not delete these réseaux articles unless there is a clear majority that wants to delete them. Hardouin 14:23, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Whatever man, you've clearly made your mind up. We shall see which scheme is more appropriate when the time comes. This is almost unimportant as you listen to no one but yourself and wish to conduct your editing your way. Since I am the french public I pretty much know what it is advertised as and since I know the SNCF and people in it, I am telling you: you are wrong, there simply is no way whatsoever, whatever the topic to get you to understand that. I do not want to prevent you from editing I simply hope you can contribute just like the rest of us but using veryfiable and correct data.

Concerning transversal lines (in french, lines that do not serve Paris), the entire service is rarely comprised within one network, which is where, once again, your system falls down. Nantes-Lyon (I thought that service had been stopped by now) begins in the Ouest Région, Réseau Montparnasse and ends in Lyon, Région Sud-Est, Réseau Gare de Lyon. As an example, Région Ouest comprises of both Réseau Saint Lazare and Réseau Montparnasse. That is because France's rail network was created like a star, concentrating on Paris, so all networks have their origins there, including both suburban and long-haul services. Enjoy! Captain scarlet 14:43, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Organisation of the SNCF

If you guys don't believe me, have a look at the french SNCF article, it's all written there in black and white in the organisation chapter. L'entreprise comprend trois niveaux de management : 23 directions régionales, approximativement calquées sur les régions administratives sauf en région parisienne où leur découpage reflète l'organisation ancienne en réseaux (Paris Saint-Lazare, Paris Sud-Est, Paris-Est, Paris-Rive-Gauche et Paris-Nord). Le pilotage de l'entreprise s'organise autour de huit domaines et activités : GL (Grandes lignes), TER, IDF (Île-de-France), Fret, Matériel, Traction, Gestion d'infrastructure, Gares. So pretty much what I've been saying all along. Good evening gentlemen, regards, Captain scarlet 19:57, 23 March 2006 (GMT)

[edit] Paris public transports infobox

Well, as this page is apparently about SNCF national rails network, I don't see any reason to keep the Paris public transport infobox. If I don't have rejections untill tomorrow, I'll remove it by myself. Metropolitan 01:47 24 March (CET).

Comment: Would it be possible to just hold on just for a few days ?Captain scarlet 07:06, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
PS: I've not had a reply from you concerning the RER logo photo. Do you want me to upload it ?

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../r/%C3%A9/s/Talk%7ER%C3%A9seau_Nord_eb1d.html"

Categories: Stub-Class France articles | Unknown-importance France articles | Start-Class rail transport articles | Unknown-importance rail transport articles