Talk:Quackwatch

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[edit] Removal of Tim Bolens comment from talk page

Regarding the removal of this comment by Tim Bolen from the talk page. I thought the purpose of talk pages is to discuss problems with the article. Tim Bolen lays out a list of problems he sees with the article. -- Stbalbach 17:22, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm in agreement with removing it. It's essentially an accusatory tirade, including a few claims that are misleading at best, all of which are totally unsourced, about a living person, from one of said person's enemies. With a dose of spamming for an attack site thrown in. Oh, and a legal threat. If you believe there were valid points about the article raised in that post, perhaps it would be best to summarize them, minus the inflammatory language. MastCell 17:36, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps reposting them and allowing discussion here would be more beneficial than a blanket removal. I agree with Stbalbach here and would like to add "Don't bite the newbie!". Also, I disagree with MastCell's deletion of Tim Bolen's website from the External Links section only because it was agreed upon in the decision to delete the article "Quackpotwatch" that a link to the actual site would remain in the external links of QuackWatch. -- Levine2112 discuss 18:13, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

The tone of the post was quite inflammatory. Why not summarize the points you believe are valid, and we can discuss them? I left the lowest level ("assumes good faith") warning about legal threats on the IP's talk page, but even newbies need to understand the talk page guidelines, disapproval of linkspam, and prohibition on legal threats - removing an inappropriate post, with an explanation of why, isn't biting. I understand the prior AfD on Quackpotwatch, but having actually looked at the website just now, I'm concerned (spelled out in more detail below) that it's included as an external link. MastCell 18:24, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

What legal threat? -- Levine2112 discuss 22:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
The last paragraph is a clear-cut legal threat. It even ends with "...So step carefully." (to remove any doubt). MastCell 23:20, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually I interpreted it as a friendly warning about Barett -- Bolen was discussing someone who was recently sued by Barrett. -- Stbalbach 01:32, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Hmm. Nor are the clearly false statements about Barrett's license particularly useful. But there's an easy fix - go ahead and summarize the points he made which you believe are valid with regard to improving the article, and they can be discussed. MastCell 04:55, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quackpotwatch, again

I removed Quackpotwatch from the external links. Looking at it again, we really shouldn't be in the business of linking to sites that pretty clearly skirt or violate WP:BLP. Such sites exist, but we really shouldn't link them from Wikipedia. For example, the site accuses Barrett of participating in a wrongful police action. Barrett's site denies it, and there's no evidence presented to substantiate the accusation, which is pretty serious. Similarly, it repeatedly refers to Barrett as unlicensed (e.g. "don't call him Doctor... he's not licensed") - when Barrett's license is listed as "Active - Retired" by the Pennsylvania State licensing board, consistent with the fact that Barrett is retired from clinical care and hasn't "lost" his license - misleading at best. on further perusal, the PA state licensing website clearly lists the expiration date for Barrett's license as 12/31/2008. "Misleading" is probably being too generous. Finally, it ends by saying:

Barrett, his cronies, minions, and henchmen, have every reason to fear public rage. Russian leader Nikita Khrushchev said it best. He said, "We would never invade America. For every American has a gun..."

Again, such sites exist, but they really have no business being linked from Wikipedia. There's plenty of other, more appropriate, criticism of Quackwatch available. Comments? MastCell 18:15, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Seems correct. IF we keep having problems with Quackpotwatch being linked, it may make sense to put it on the blacklist. JoshuaZ 18:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
To address a point above, I understand that in the Quackpotwatch AfD a while back it was suggested to merge with Quackwatch. However, such decisions are open to review - I'd like to reopen the question of whether this is an appropriate external link for Wikipedia. My opinion is above. If there are valid reasons to keep it, other than what was said at an AfD last year, I'm willing to hear them. MastCell 18:26, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Until that happens, the link should be re-inserted. -- Levine2112 discuss 18:39, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
The result of that AfD was delete, it isn't clear that if there were no content on this page already that it woul dhave been merged here. Furthermore, it isn't at all clear that there is anything worth talking about about quackpotwatch. It fails WP:WEB, and seems to be functionally a personal webpage. I see no reason to link to it or mention it. JoshuaZ 18:43, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Here is the AfD ruling for "Quackpotwatch"...
"The result was delete. Many of those saying "keep" here approve of the idea of this being covered only in Quackwatch.. it already is."
Since then, we have watched this article's coverage of Quackpotwatch dwindle down from a paragraph to a sentence to a mere external link and now nothing. This behavior doesn't seem to honor the accord. That being said, if a new agreement needs to be reached about this link, then there should be another group consensus to decide this. Until then, it is wrong to delete the external link. -- Levine2112 discuss 21:36, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Consenus can change over time, and your use of the word "accord" as if this were some sort of treaty between pro and anti-quackwatch editors in unhelpful. Try to remember that Wikipedia is not a battlefield. JoshuaZ 21:39, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
"accord" is an agreement. And that is a good thing. I don't want a semantic debate. Consensus can change, but thus far any change hasn't been demonstrated properly. Until that time, the link should remain to honor the AfD agreement. -- Levine2112 discuss 22:11, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Again, use of terms like "agreement" there wasn't an agremeent, there was a determination of consensus at the time. In any event, there seems to be more editors here who favor removal than who favor inclusion. We don't need a formalized *fD for an external link. JoshuaZ 23:00, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I believe we do to override what another formal *fD concluded. Furthermore, it should be know that Quackpotwatch forwards to Quackwatch per that *fD. At least the link should stay here, if not a complete description of QPW. -- Levine2112 discuss 23:07, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Um, what policy and what venue do you intend to place this in? In any event, the solution then is to remove the link. If there is then a situation where a redirect should be removed as a result of an editorial decision here, that should be taken to RfD. JoshuaZ 23:13, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Here's an idea: let's hear an explanation of how linking to QuackpotWatch fits our policies/guidelines (e.g. WP:EL) and makes Wikipedia a better encyclopedia (see bottom of thread). That would be more helpful than referring back to a year-old AfD that most of us didn't participate in. MastCell 23:22, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Restored link. No reason not to link to it except some personal dislikes of the site. -- Stbalbach 19:54, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Um, you're welcome to restore it, and I won't revert you, but I just provided a number of reasons why I don't think it should be linked. None of them were "personal dislike", although I guess that could be added. Can you address the issues that a) the site contains material that would violate WP:BLP, b) the site contains serious accusations and claims that are highly misleading at best, and outright unfounded attacks at worst (see above, and WP:EL re: avoiding links to sites that present misleading, factually inaccurate, or unverifiable claims), c) the site's tone is inappropriate for material linked from Wikipedia, and d) the site contains essentially an incitement to violence? Otherwise it sounds like there's no reason to keep it, except some personal dislikes of Quackwatch. MastCell 20:03, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Has everyone read the link? It's an attack site. I have no contact at all with Dr. Barrett, Quackwatch or Quackpot for the record. I took a look at the Quackpot site and find it to be very nasty to say the least. It's an opinion piece as Mr. Bolin has stated. I am a new editor and from what I have learned so far this is against Wiki policies.--Crohnie 21:15, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

What I haven't heard is anyone giving a convincing reason why the link should be included in spite of being abusive in tone, misleading and factually inaccurate, unverifiable, etc. I've only heard reference to an AfD from last year that many current editors didn't participate in, and a claim that I have a "personal dislike" for the source. I've listed a number of reasons why I think the site is inappropriate for an encyclopedia, based on WP:EL, and needless to say I agree with Crohnie here. Its author was sued by Barrett for libel in a case that, AFAIK, is still ongoing - is this really the kind of encyclopedic content we want to link? MastCell 22:31, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I think everyone needs to take a deep breath. Obviously there are very strong opinions going on here that I don't totally understand. So why don't we do a consensus now and see what happens? I don't really care about this but I am trying to learn things here and it's very confusing changing the rules like this, atleast it seems to be. If people are interested in a new consenses, then get started and I will add my vote to it. Thanks, --Crohnie 23:43, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I think I know where everyone stands right now. I'm willing to be convinced, but I haven't heard any reasoning about why the link should stay, or how it squares with policies and Wikipedia's goals. MastCell 00:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

There is always WP:ILIKEIT, it seems to be a favourite :-) Shot info 00:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

We have watched discussion of Quackpotwatch on Wikipedia go from an article, to a section, to a sentence, to a single external link, to now completely deleted from Wikipedia. While the site does contain controversial material, it is in no way clearly false (despite MastCell's original research on Barrett's credentials, and acceptance of Barrett's word as gospel truth). The site is colorfully critical of Barrett in a few minor places, but there is nothing that would land Bolen in court, if there was Barrett would have already done so by now (or he tried and failed). This is a major and important site for those who are critical of Barrett, it is not just some minor blog, it is probably the oldest and most well known such site, and contains the most background information, deleting it would be a major loss - blowing out of proportion a few items on the site at the expense of the site as a whole, in particular by those who have taken a side in the debate, anyway the link needs to be restored. -- Stbalbach 01:32, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, it is clearly false, as the PA medical licensing board confirms. If, as Levine2112 seems to believe, Quackwatch should not be linked as an unreliable attack site, then Quackpotwatch clearly would not be allowable even in its own article. I'm not entirely happy with Levine2112's arguments, but this site has got to go. (And, has been pointed out, calling someone a "quack" is not actionable, but may still violate WP:EL.) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 01:51, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I absolutely agree with that assessment, Arthur. That is why I am not defending the site based on tis content; only on the agreement which was reached per the AfD. If the link is to be deleted, then another consensus must be reached to strike the agreement reached in the Quackpotwatch AfD. Until that time, removing the link violates the terms of that AfD. Please feel where I am coming from, repost the link, and then start an MfD to get it deleted. Then again, if you don't argee with my point about Quackwatch, then why do you feel that Quackpotwatch should be deleted. My feeling is that Quackwatch hasn't demonstrated any level of accountability. At least with Quackpotwatch, Bolen has to worry about whether or not Barrett is going to sue him. ;-) -- Levine2112 discuss 01:55, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Levine, again, you see this somehow contractual and refer to an "agreement." This isn't accurate and has no basis in Wikipedia policy. Removing the link does not require a new AfD or anything. We as an informal group here can if there is consensus simply remove it, and there seems to be in this case. JoshuaZ 02:45, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
There is no consensus to remove the ext link, in fact prior consensus was to keep it. AfD's do have weight of precedence. If we tried to re-create the Quackpotwarch article it probably would be speedy deleted because of the prior AfD - you can't have it both ways. -- Stbalbach 15:35, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
In response to Stbalbach, the Pennsylvania state department of licensing is a primary source, not original research. Bolen's site already has landed him in court, and the case is ongoing - and in any case, the bar for inclusion in Wikipedia is a little higher than "it's not legally actionable". It's not like we have to dig to find criticism of Quackwatch - there are several decent critiques quoted in the article, so I don't see how it would be a "major loss" to remove a site that suggests Barrett et al. are being "hunted", should "fear public rage" in the form of armed violence, are "going to pay a terrible price for their actions", etc. - "colorful" indeed. I'll disregard the more personal comments on "taking a side" and "taking Barrett's word as gospel" as irrelevant and ask that we comment on content, rather than the contributor. If you feel strongly that the site is a major loss, then perhaps getting outside opinions or an WP:RfC would be useful. "Agreements" from an AfD 9 months ago notwithstanding, if the site can't be justified now, then it should stay out. MastCell 02:22, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Basically what your saying is there is no place for Quackpotwatch on Wikipedia, anywhere, that it should be banned entirely. You even went so far as considering asking to block the URL via a Spam block. There is obviously disagreement with this and no consensus. I think we need an RfC to bring in a wider audience. Barrett goes around calling people Quacks which is perfectly acceptable (although he often gets sued for it and sometimes looses), but you consider a critic of Barrett an attack site. I don't know about the details of Bolen's case, but Barrett has landed in court a few times himself and lost - if you really want to apply Wikipedia rules to a strict interpretation its hard to tell the difference between Barrett and Bolen. -- Stbalbach 15:35, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, no. Basically, Quackwatch is mostly fact, with some vitriol which is unsuitable for Wikipedia. Quackpotwatch is mostly vitriol, possibly some fact. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 15:45, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Quackwatch is mostly fact that is an opinion. My opinion it is a den logical fallacies and junk science with less credibility than Wikipedia, where at least we have to cite reliable sources and are open to a peer review process and alternative views. But these are just personal opinions. -- Stbalbach 20:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

If you open Quackwatch and Quackpotwatch side-by-side, it will be quite easy to see the difference. Quackwatch has an agenda, and many consider it unreliably partisan (see the ongoing WP:RfArb). But it also contains some useful information, contains input from many contributors, serves as a meta-resource (i.e. contains references which are, themselves, reliable sources), etc. It's undeniably harsh toward those it deems "quacks", but compare to Bolen's site - Quackpotwatch is apparently a one-person self-published site, a threatening rant, with a liberal helping of provably false and, at best, unverifiable anti-Barrett information (licensing, for instance). Since you mentioned I regard "Barrett's word as gospel", let me clear up that a) I'd never heard of Quackwatch, nor Barrett, till coming to Wikipedia, b) there's a lot on the site I don't agree with, and c) I'm not "pro-Quackwatch"; the site provokes so much hatred here that anyone who's not on board with bashing it is automatically assigned to the "pro-Quackwatch" camp. I really don't see things that way. But yes, I think a site like Quackpotwatch has no place in an encyclopedia. MastCell 16:55, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm currently unable to bring up http://www.quackpotwatch.org or even its Google cache, maybe temporary, or maybe something happened. I'll wait to see what happens before commenting further as I need to see the site to get some data. -- Stbalbach 20:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Remove it. This is an encyclopedia, not a soapbox. --Ronz 18:41, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
There is no vote currently. See WP:JUSTAPOLICY, we are just trying to establish consensus which takes actual time and effort of justifying a position, not just citing a policy page. -- Stbalbach 20:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm aware of the situation. The case clearly has been made, from at least my perspective, that the link should be removed per WP:NOT in the discussion above, and in the previous discussions to date. --Ronz 20:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I support leaving the link out as well, it's just an attack site and doesn't add anything to the article. And the main reason to keep it seems to be an AfD months ago, which I don't see as a genuine reason. --Milo H Minderbinder 23:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why the Quackpotwatch link should stay

Quackwatch itself is a highly controversial attack site. QW and Barrett have been playing this rough game for decades. For example, QW has a long and vitriolic personal attack on Tim Bolen [1]. Given that, it is not unfair that the arch-enemy of QW is linked. QW actually sets this harsh tone of voice itself. And regarding the alleged factual errors on Quackpotwatch (apart from the “delicenced” error). Do we have other reliable sources to support that claim apart from QWs own rebuttals? The Quackpotwatch site seems to be down, but when it is operational again the link should be restored. MaxPont 16:19, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Again, the argument seems to be ignoring WP:NOT, WP:NPOV and the previous discussion by others. --Ronz 16:34, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Remove I think it's a horrible site that just attacks plus according to what I have read so far it's against policy here to have this kind of site. --Crohnie 00:00, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other external links

What about removing all the external links, favorable and unfavorable? I'm not clear that any of them is particularly substantial, or adds anything much to what's already in the article. The positive ones could conceivably be incorporated into the "praise" section, although neither is from a particularly notable source, so they should probably just be dropped. The negative ones could either should be incorporated, briefly, into the criticism section or dropped. MastCell 20:35, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I think the topic could justify stricter guidelines concerning external links. It's not a current event or similar topic where the information available is changing rapidly. However, there are few reliable, secondary sources on the topic, so we're already having difficulty with external links. Probably the best compromise is to hold the external links to the same standards as the references. --Ronz 21:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with this proposal. There is nothing wrong with the links, we have External links sections at Wikipedia for relevant and topical links. These are the best links available for this topic. Even if they are "incorporated" into footnotes for citation reasons, there is still a external links section with the same links repeated as required. -- Stbalbach 21:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I strongly disagree, and am quite confused by your interpretation of WP:EL and related guidelines. Others certainly think there are things wrong with the links. Being "best available" does not exempt them from fitting guidelines and policy. I cannot understand why you might think that "there is still a external links section with the same links repeated as required." What's required and why? --Ronz 21:36, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
There has not been a case made. We are not talking about Bolens site. Just MastCell's opinion that all the external links are "not substantial". -- Stbalbach 05:10, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Since it's related to this topic, I agree with JoshuaZ that the chiro.org link is inappropriate, nothing but a list of links of sites of various levels of quality with summaries of each. --Ronz 02:09, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

They are not all external to Chiro, some of the links are internal, it is an integral website onto its own. There are some good articles in there. -- Stbalbach 05:10, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not of a strong opinion about the Chiro.org site in particular - it's not really any better or worse than the other pro- and con- links that are there now. I guess my preference would be for stronger links on both sides, or getting rid of them all. For instance, the Village Voice article and Ray Sahelian's critique both make very valid criticisms of Quackwatch and Barrett - if you don't mind duplicating footnoted refs in the External Links, why not include those? Or even Kauffman's website review? Any of those is much more likely to strike an impartial reader as reasonable and valid than, say, an essay that begins with an implicit comparison between Stephen Barrett and Adolf Hitler. MastCell 03:17, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
All of those seem like reasonable external links to me. JoshuaZ 04:18, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
BTW a quote from Hitler does not mean a comparison is being made to Barrett and Hitler (would a quote by Einstein associate Barrett with Einstein? Marilyn Monroe?). The quote is there because of what the quote says, it's a famous quote and often used when discussing propaganda - the subject of the quote is what is important, the person who said it just gives the quote authority/believability. -- Stbalbach 05:10, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Some or all of these could be included (Stbalbach 05:10, 3 March 2007 (UTC)):

I'm still trying to get a feel for what links are found acceptable for this article and why. It appears that the reason the quality of links is so low is that there are few good ones available, and that the topic is contentious. Given that, I have to say that the list above has links that are definitely not acceptable. There are links that are too far off topic, links to attack sites, links to linkfarms. If links like these are going to be seriously suggested, I think we need to go with MastCell's original suggestion: get rid of all external links and only consider those that can be used as sources. This article has existed long enough that these types of issues should have been resolved long ago. --Ronz 16:24, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Other than aesthetic reasons, I wouldn't say the quality of these links are that terrible. You would need to go through each one and say exactly what policy they violate and provide some rationale - generalizations don't hold up. BTW I know you and MastCell seem to agree commonly and this has become an insular discussion with only a few people, if anything is done it will need to be opened up to a wider audience than what we currently have here. I would really like to see this article get more attention from a wider audience on Wikipedia, this discussion seems to be moving us forward in that direction, which is good, I'm glad you guys are brining these issues up. -- Stbalbach 17:14, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I guess the only ones I think are unacceptable out-of-hand on WP:EL grounds are the Usenet repost (from iahf.com), "The Big Lie" (which is mostly Vitamin C advocacy), and Ilena Rosenthal's site (see ongoing WP:RfArb). The others I wouldn't include because I don't think they add much beyond what's in the article, but I wouldn't say they violate any specific parts of WP:EL necessarily. I still think there's better criticism out there, as I mentioned above. I do agree that when these discussions become back-and-forth between a handful of editors, that opening it up to community input can be helpful. I think if we have a couple of clear alternatives for how to handle the external links on this article, we could open it up to an WP:RfC or somesuch to get outside input. Also, I think the "External Links" section of any controversial article ends up generating the most controversy, and adding the least value to the article - that's been my experience, and why I'm a minimalist about external links. MastCell 17:37, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Yep. This is very basic interpretation of wiki policy. If Stbalbach has a problem seeing this, then it's no wonder that this talk page is mired in trivial issues. Even more reason to get rid of the external links. Sorry for the generalizations, but wasting time on trivial issues is counterproductive. Also, I think we're all experienced enough editors here to know that it is the responsibility of the editor that adds or proposes to add information to support the addition of that information. --Ronz 16:39, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok in the interest of compromise between balancing favorable for non-favoriable sites, and in the interest of keeping the external links section small, I removed all but TWO links (other than the main site). One a human interest story about Quackwatch, and the other a site which is a clearinghouse for all things related to ongoing controversies with Quackwatch. I also removed the "Favorable" and "Critical" sub-sections as they are POV. If you can't live with this let me know and we'll start an RfC. -- Stbalbach 22:29, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

A comment, reading through "Healthfreedomlaw" it appears that it is mainly about NCAHF and Stephen Barrett himself rather than about Quackwatch. Personally I think it more satisfactory to be over at NCAHF and possibly Stephen Barrett however the latter may fail on WP:BLP as it is an attack site. The "pro" site by Mendosa at least is a "review" of Quackwatch. I am not familar with Medosa so I cannot comment on how "valid" his opinion is and/or whether it deserves a place here in WP. Commments?? Shot info 22:51, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Maybe we need an RfC as Stbalbach suggests. These are trivial issues from my perspective that should have been resolved long ago. The claim of needing to balance favorable and non-favorable sites isn't any reason to ignore the guidelines concerning external links. --Ronz 00:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't feel strongly enough about any of the current links to argue them - I think given the issues, it's a reasonable compromise to have those three, and it's an improvement although not my first choice. I can live with the three that Stbalbach has listed, and would prefer to move on to other parts of this article and other articles to spending more time on the external links - but if others feel more strongly I respect that. MastCell 01:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Personally I find the concept of "balance" as it relates to this article rather odd, it almost implies "give my minority view equal (or more) space as the majority view" which of course is not very encyclopaedic (IMO). However, I have no problems with the three at the moment and agree with Ronz that they are trivial matters indeed, but matters that should be discussed rather than unilaterally changed. Shot info 01:36, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Strange goings-on

This edit by User:Charles Matthews replaced the contents of the talk page with the contents of /Archive 5. I'm assuming this was accidental, as it wiped out a significant amount of discussion, and have reverted it. If I'm missing something, and it was done for a reason, please let me know. MastCell 18:47, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Looks like it was so that Charles Matthews could make a NLT warning. I think we're fine with the talk page as it is now. --Ronz 19:16, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] BIAS EDITORS

EXTERNAL LINKS BRING BALANCE. BIAS EDITORS DO NOT BELONG ON WIKIPEDIA. GigiButterfly 02:17, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes they do, if they can follow the guidelines like everyone else. --Ronz 03:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
GigiButterfly, I'm going to go ahead and say that all-caps edit summaries like "RESTORE EXTERNAL LINKS DELETED BY DELETIONISTS" are not constructive. I know you're relatively new, and I don't want to be harsh, but these are controversial articles and your approach could probably stand a little moderation. MastCell 03:51, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Gigi, please post your discussions in here, the talkpage, rather than just deleting information from the article. If you feel that the items in question should be deleted, propose it and it can be discussed. Shot info 03:53, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I think a consensus is now due, whether to use Quackpot or not.

With all the heat going on about [2], let's do a consenses and see how everyone feels about the site. Please everyone, lets do it with calmness.

  • keep out; I believe it's a hate site and adds nothing good to any article. For those that don't know I do not know Mr. Bolin, Dr. Barrett or anyone else involved in this.--Crohnie 10:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep the link. The Wikipedia article about QW does in no way give the readers a feel for the heated controversy on both sides around QW. I find it quite obvious that QW is a controversial web site that takes a strong partisan position. (Or how else would QW now be close to being officially labeled as Unrelialbe here on Wikipedia [3].) Considering the attack nature of QW it is not unfair that critics of QW using the same tone of voice are being linked to. If you ignore all the angry language and hostile interpretations of facts on Quackpotwatch the site provides the largest collection of factual information about QW on the web that the interested WP reader should be allowed to find. MaxPont 11:40, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Question to MaxPont; how does a new reader ignore the angry language and hostile interpretations? --Crohnie 12:20, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
"QW does in no way give the readers a feel for the heated controversy on both sides around QW". So we need to give readers a feel for a heated controversy? This is an encyclopedia, not a battleground. Sounds like MaxPont is arguing that WP:NOT should be ignored. I strongly disagree. --Ronz 15:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
The battleground rule has to do with the behavior of the editors, not about hiding controversies from the readers. It would be unencyclopedic to keep the readers in the dark about the high degree of controversy surrounding QW. I would prefer adding the word controversial in the QW intro section but I assume that would be strongly opposed by some other editors. The link to Quackpotwatch is a way of showing the readers that there exist a vocal criticism of QW. MaxPont 19:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Do we have a reliable source talking about the "high degree of controversy" and QPW? --Milo H Minderbinder 19:28, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, alot of what is on QW is outdated and should have been archived long ago. What do you suggest? --Crohnie 15:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it's simple. The ArbCom case has nothing to do with the merits of linking Quackpotwatch. An AfD from 9 months ago has nothing to do with a decision, now, on whether to link it - see WP:Consensus can change. Claiming equivalence with Quackwatch is not a justification for linking it. The site fails WP:EL, which is Wikipedia's guideline specifically covering this situation, and it fails the common-sense test of whether it adds encyclopedic content to the article. If there's a serious feeling that the link needs to stay, I suggest opening a request for comment and soliciting outside opinions, because it seems very clear to me that the site is inappropriate for Wikipedia. MastCell 15:55, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi Ronz, being a new editor I had to look up WP:NOT. I understand now what you mean and I have to agree with you. MastCell, I'll have to read up on the other internal links you provided. --Crohnie 16:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Question: Isn't Tim Bolen one of Quackwatch's most public detractors? Bolen is the target of a libel lawsuit by Quackwatch members and I believe Bolen has in turn has been at the helm of a lawsuit against Quackwatch members. Notable? I do agree with Ronz that on the face, Quackpotwatch doesn't pass WP:EL. Are we in a grey area here if Bolen is a notable critic though? I think it would be unencyclopedic not to mention one of Quackwatch's most notable critics. -- Levine2112 discuss 17:05, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Remove link/keep it out It doesn't meet WP:EL and we have no real indication that it is at all link or that Bolen is "one of Quackwatch's most public detractors"- we don't in fact have a single reliable source discussing quackpotwatch and it violates multiple elements of WP:EL. JoshuaZ 17:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Remove link/keep it out per JoshuaZ. AvB ÷ talk 19:24, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I read that Mr. Bolin is in an active lawsuit that involves Dr. Barrett. Doesn't this make a difference? --Crohnie 18:17, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I would think it does lend to Bolen's notability and relevance with regards to this article. -- Levine2112 discuss 18:40, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
None of this is reason to ignore WP:NOT and WP:EL. --Ronz 19:22, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Which part of NOT and which part of EL are you referring to specifically? I feel relevancy might trump these policies, but I will withhold judgement until I better understand your point. -- Levine2112 discuss 19:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
(removed) Yes, Ronz, an elaboration would be helpful in moving the discussion forward. MaxPont 19:44, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
MaxPont has written above, ""QW does in no way give the readers a feel for the heated controversy on both sides around QW," to which I responded, "This is an encyclopedia, not a battleground." Specifically, there is no reason to bring the battle here by including a attack-site as an external link. --Ronz 21:17, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Normally, a site with an aggressive nature would not be considered on Wikipedia but in this case the attack nature of QW (and that QW itself counter-attacks QPW) is ground for including the link. (P.S. (refactored) Please don't refactor my comments) MaxPont 22:03, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

If you're referring to me, I'm happy to elaborate. WP:EL proscribes the use of sites which contain "factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research". Quackpotwatch contains generous helpings of both, some of which I've specified earlier in this interminable discussion. It also proscribes linking to "personal websites or blogs", which is borderline with Quackpotwatch - I'm not clear anyone else is involved besides Bolen, and it appears to be a one-man operation. I don't think we're in a WP:EL gray area here. MastCell 21:01, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Remove link/keep it out - I just don't see the "attack nature" of QW, nor do I see where it mentions QPW. And even if QW was an attack site, I'm not sure which WP policy would make you think that's reason to link to QPW. I see no reason to link to QPW, it's an attack site, seems to be a one-man operation, not notable. Do we link to wallmartsux.com or georgebushsux.com on those wikipedia articles? No, and I don't see what's different about this article. Keep the link out. --Milo H Minderbinder 22:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Health Freedom Law Doesn't this link show that there is controversy? --Crohnie 22:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm new and still learning but I thought personal websites, blogs etc. were not allowed. Am I wrong?--Crohnie 22:55, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Correct. Links normally to be avoided includes "Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority." See also WP:SELFPUB for related policies. --Ronz 23:07, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
If that site is to be believed, it shows there have been lawsuits. If that's the best source we can find for that info, they certainly doesn't seem notable. And along those lines, why is that site linked? It certainly seems to fail EL in a big way. I'd favor dumping it as well. --Milo H Minderbinder 22:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree. I think the external links we have now are very poor quality. I suggested removing them, and replacing them with more robust critical links (a Village Voice article, a critique from a well-known alt-med advocate, or even the infamous website review from JSE). All of these are much more reasonable, encyclopedically suitable, and WP:EL-friendly critiques. It seemed like there was some support for such a move, but it hit a brick wall (see discussion above) in the form of one user who was absolutely opposed to removing Quackpotwatch. Thoughts? MastCell 23:15, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Those all are much better than HFL and the mendosa one that are in now. --Milo H Minderbinder 23:18, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

As a new editor, I defer to those with experience and knowledge about such things. --Crohnie 23:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep it. Keep it in the critical site links or open in up to discuss the lawsuit mentioned above. What information in it is false? Could not the same be said of Quackwatch? TheDoctorIsIn 02:05, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
This is all in the thread labeled "Quackpotwatch, again" above. The examples I cited are that a) the site claims Barrett is unlicensed/delicensed (see the link to the Pennsylvania Dept of Licencing above, which demonstrates this is untrue). But actually, the onus is on those who want to insert/keep the link to explain how it is possibly acceptable under WP:EL and how it adds anything of value to the encyclopedia that justifies linking it. That hasn't happened; I've just heard reference to an old AfD, or arguments about how Quackwatch is an attack site, so it's OK to violate WP:EL on this article. I don't get it. By the way, since you mention it, where is the factually inaccurate information on Quackwatch we keep hearing implications about? MastCell 02:18, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Bolen is one of the most vocal and well know critics of QW. Given the high level of litigious behavior by both Bolen and QW, and given the high level of controversy of both sites, it is calling the kettle black by Wikilawyering on the WP:EL rules. For example, QW is on any given day fighting some court somewhere for something that would violate the WP:EL rule - or just look at the historical record. But we don't ban QW from Wikipedia. As another user said, this article is sanitized and doesn't reflect the real controversy. WP:EL was not meant to do stifle disagreement, it is an open interpretation with each case looking at the whole, not an "absolution" set of rules. -- Stbalbach 04:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. Where is this "straw poll" advertised? I'm concerned about the insular nature of it, we need to bring in more people outside of the regulars on this page, so as to avoid a repeat poll. -- Stbalbach 04:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
This is an article about Quackwatch; therefore, its external link is appropriate in this article. That is spelled out in WP:EL. Quackpotwatch, on the other hand, is inappropriate according to the guideline. The only wikilawyering taking place is the attempt to justify ignoring WP:EL by referencing an old AfD or claiming "Quackwatch is bad" (without providing any specifics), so that justfies linking an unencylopedic attack site. Insular? I don't think User:Milo H Minderbinder, User:Crohnie, or User:JoshuaZ are "regulars" here. If you want more outside input, ask for an RfC. MastCell 04:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
It's all a matter of opinion, otherwise we wouldn't be having these discussions, absolution pronouncements that it violates EL won't get us anywhere, except escalate tensions between the parties, clearly people disagree. I'm sure you think it is a factual objective fact and may be frustrated with anyone who disagrees (like calling the sun green), but there are good arguments on both sides and I hope you are not blinded by partisan feelings. We already had one consensus building exercise during the Quackpotwatch AfD so there is some precedence (which does matter). It seems very odd that there is no place on Wikipedia for Quackpotwatch - none. It can't have its own article, it can't be mentioned here. If we do start a RfC it will based on that question: Should QPW be banned entirely from Wikipedia? because that is what removal of it from this article achieves, there is no other place for it. -- Stbalbach 17:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Has QPW been written about in the media or otherwise? It's possible that QPW doesn't deserve a mention anywhere on wikipedia. We don't mention every website, particularly every attack site, do we? Just because we don't mention a website doesn't mean we're "banning" it. You've asserted that there's much controversy and that QPW is well known - do you have reliable sources to cite for those claims? --Minderbinder 18:08, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

There's generally no place on Wikipedia for self-published, one-man websites that publish unverified attacks and false information. It would be odd if such a site were deemed encyclopedic. If you want to consider that to mean Quackpotwatch is "banned", I guess you could. MastCell 18:12, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

  • I strongly disagree. The problem is that if the QPW link is removed the readers will be left in dark about the controversial nature of QW. The compensate for that, I will add text about the large number of lawsuits and about the controversial nature of QW. MaxPont 11:18, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
The article already contains a lengthy, well-referenced criticism section. To claim that people won't realize the site is controversial unless we include Bolen's one-man wesbite makes no sense to me. It's fine to describe Quackwatch as controversial, but lawsuits involving Stephen Barrett belong at Stephen Barrett, not here - there's already too much duplicated content between the two. The Quackpotwatch external link is not a bargaining chip - it's clearly unacceptable according to Wikipedia's guidelines. MastCell Talk 16:11, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Quackpotwatch->"This website, the official archive of Tim Bolen's".
Stephen Barrett->"A response to Tim Bolen"-http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/bolen.html
--scuro 12:34, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

"readers will be left in dark about the controversial nature of QW". QW represents the mainstream scientific opinion, therefore for there to be "controversy" implies that the mainstream disagrees or finds fault with it. The "controversy" is only a minority viewpoint, often who vehemently disagree with their sacred cows being criticised. The fact that poor references that violate most (if not all) WP policies (WP:BLP, WP:POV, WP:V, WP:RS) are required to prove the "controversy" is in itself evidence of the nature of the "controversy" and it's lack of notability. Shot info 23:21, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

QW represents the mainstream scientific opinion - Says who, Barrett? Barrett does a good job of making it seem that way, I do admit, but his publications are hardly peer reviewed or even scientific, they are "web essays" often full of opinion and rhetoric. Also, external sites are not beholden to Wikipedia's internal policies. WP:EL is the guideline we use, with each case being unique. -- Stbalbach 00:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Sure, let me add WP:EL to the list. WP:BLP, WP:POV, WP:V, WP:RS and WP:EL :-) As for "mainstream scientific opinion", [[4]] would help give an impression of what is regarded as opposed to selling the "controversy". Shot info 00:25, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
IMO those gold stars are getting kind of rusty, 1998 and 1999 was a different era, a lot of court cases have happened since. The late 90s was a kind of Internet honeymoon with the dot-com boom, when everything online was cutting edge and revolutionary. I would be surprised to see QW continue to garner those kinds of accolades today. Also when you consider alternative medicine has made continued in-roads into the mainstream since the 90s, QW is looking more reactionary than progressive. -- Stbalbach 01:06, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Methinks any JAMA card beats all your QPotWatch cards, the point of the above discussion remember :-) Shot info 01:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
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