Talk:Quackery

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Contents 1 definition 2 POV 3 Non-neutral tone of the article 3.1 Introduction 3.2 History 4 do some entries belong? 5 definition 6 Iatrogenic deaths 7 Definition? 8 Definition 2 9 Gerson 10 Civility 11 Definition problems 12 Examples 13 Main stream medicines is quackery 14 Definition of quackery and quack 15 Questionable references 15.1 very questionable 16 Factual accuracy tag placed 17 Recent edit 18 Definitely looking better 19 "Placebo" and "Placebo Effect" 20 Conventional medicine and quacks

[edit] definition

Quackery has existed all throughout human history, and probably pre-dates the emergence of effective medicine.

I don't think you can have quackery without effective medicine. It seems to me that quackery is not merely useless but also presented as an alternative to something that actually works. When the mainstream witch doctor offers me willowbark tea for pain and the alternative witch doctor says I should turn around three times and spit, the alternative witch doctor is a quack. When the only witch doctor tells me to turn around three times and spit, he isn't -- although sooner or later someone's going to try those willows. --Calieber 16:24, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I second Calieber's opinion. -- Khym Chanur 09:17, Oct 30, 2003 (UTC)

Absolutely. Refer to 'history of medicine.'

[edit] POV

The terms "quack" and "quackery" seem rather informal and pejoritive to me, thus making a "Quckery" article POV. Also, there seems to be a great deal of overlap between what is described in the article, and alternative medicine. If there is a difference between quackery and alternative medicine, it should be described clearly at the begining of the article. -- Khym Chanur 09:17, Oct 30, 2003 (UTC)

This article bothers me too, for reasons I can't quite put my finger on. -- Viajero 10:07, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

There are many articles, such as 'ambulance chaser', that are perjorative, however, they seem to be acceptable for Wikipedia encyclopedic entries.

One thing I noticed entirely missing is the other use of the term 'quackery'. It is not just a phrase for overpromising of medicalbenefit, but also a perjorative term used for an incompetent health professional. jgwlaw 02:59, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Those making money out of quackery call it alternative medicine; those losing money to alternative medicine call it quackery. :-D

I started this article ages ago when I first discovered Wikipedia. It was on the requested articles page and I thought I could write something about it.

Quackery implies the quack is ripping off the customer, like the "snake oil sellers" of the past (patent medicine). This article should be about this practice, and the people involved. It's not a discussion of herbal medicines or anything, it's about the scams.

EXACTLY! Quackwatch is hardly the definitive source for a dfinition of quack or quackery. It is about scams, and scammers, or incompetent medical professionals.jgwlaw 03:00, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

You need to examine Quackwatch more carefully. Many if not most of the scammers and quacks listed there are MDs. It matters not the profession, it's their actions that get them listed there. The definition used there is the best one available, since it doesn't even focus on the thing or action, but the claims made for that thing or action. (See the bottom of this page. [1]) False claims are the defining factor. --- Fyslee 07:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

The first line does say "unproven, ineffective" "to make money", and i'm not really sure whether the distinction to alternative medicine needs to be made. The article no longer implies much connection between the two. It may have been originally (and still be) slightly POV, in terms of what it calls quackery, but that's potentially fixable. Tristanb 11:31, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Well, if it's about scams, then wouldn't the difference between quackery and alternative medicine be that the quack doesn't believe what he practices, while a practicioner of alterative medicine does? If someone selling snake oil actually believes in it, I couldn't consider that a scam.

If we made that sort of distinction, then "psychic surgery" would always be quackery, since the "psychic" surgeon has to use sleight of hand, while accupuncture wouldn't be, since most accupuncturists believe in what they're doing. -- Khym Chanur 12:06, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)

Well it is a common knowledge that some shamans and healers in other cultures did made those "psychic" surgery and yet did believe in what they were doing. The fact that the recipient of the treatment believes in one thing and the person who applys it know the "truth" does not make the applier a charlatan in the definition above, sometimes the deception is part of the treatment. Even modern medicine does use placebos from time to time, witch implyes the sane trickery, but instead of chicken guts the doctor gives the pacient a real looking pill that contains nothing. Victor Bogado 12:20, Jan 10, 2006

Is accupuncture considered quackery? I suppose it has been. Maybe my definition of quackery is wrong/imprecise; "scam" may not have been the best word to use. BTW Is psychic surgery ever not quackery?

Is "deceit" a word to use? Are accupuncturists deceiving their clients, even if they believe the process is effective? Deception implies a deliberateness. I should get a dictionary :-) But if deceit can happen without the deceiver knowing it, then that's a word i'd use. Tristanb 00:08, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

“Is accupuncture considered quackery?”

See Quackwatch and Google [2] [3] [4]

"Some studies show up to 80% of people will report an improvement in their condition after taking a sugar pill. " It seems that on a page concerning quackery a reference would be appropriate of such a vauge statement.

I have to say, this article troubles me deeply. It is not just POV, it's a diatribe. As User:Khym Chanur said, even the title is a perjorative term. IMO, the article needs to be rewritten from scratch (And I say this as someone who personally shares the sentiments expressed in the article). RMoloney 16:13, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Just like there are pious frauds, there are undoubtedly people who believe they are practicing efficacious medicine but are deluding themselves as well as their patients. Whether that amounts to quackery may be a semantic question: in any event, it is not accurate to label anything the AMA doesn't wholeheartedly endorse as "quackery," any more than it would be accurate to label everything the AMA does a result of conflict of interest. There appears to be a group of editors who have found a mission in demonizing everything that doesn't fit into their definition of "science." --Leifern 16:27, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

I'm very upset with this article, it is not only very opinionated it is providing a lot of misinformation. For example I was under the impression that Chiropractic care was no longer considered Quackery. As others have stated I do not believe it is possible for an article on Quackery to be NPOV unless it is written like a dictionary definition and does not seek to label things as Quackeries, seeing as that would be an opinion rather than a fact. Also, don’t alternative medicine and pseudoscience cover similar topics already? I was thinking doesn’t the AMA also have a conflict of interest when determining if something is Quackery? I would like to move for this article to be completely rewritten as RMoloney previously suggested. --Ariadoss 02:17, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Just as with any fringe science article, the fact that prevailing scientific opinion holds certain treatments to be ineffective is encyclopedic and not a violation of NPOV. I think the article does an admirable job in presenting history. If you dispute a specific section, perhaps the "See also" section, then perhaps you can label that rather than the entire article. --DocJohnny 04:41, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

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The definition of quackery suggests that there are con men deliberately deceiving other people. This is often not the case. Generally the quack sincerely believes in his own quackery. But the quack fails apply a scientific method to evaluate his own 'cure' and is very unopen for any suggestion that he may be wrong. Good doctors can believe false things too but they have studied the scientific literature and are open to evidence that they are wrong. Andries

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Calieber is right, but not quite on the mark. The necessary requirement for the defintion of "quackery" is an established profession, a guild, of physicians or chemists (who sell medicine). The first mentioning of quackery in Swedish law dates back to 1675, and is a protection for the profession of chemists against competition from amateur practitioners of their trade, i.e. from non-members of their guild. The idea that concern for the public health would be a motive for such laws sounds right to the general public and has therefore been a useful argument, but is merely propaganda from members of the trade, who want to regulate against competition. -- LA2, August 25, 2004

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Interesting. Dunno if it's so. Several sites are claiming "quack" came from "quacksalver", supposedly the Germanic "quicksilver", back in the time of the battle of the fillings: "quacks" used mercury amalgams, which were not only poisonous but swelled and split teeth (eventually a bit of tin was added to rememdy that). The original quacks? The American Dental Association. (The American Society of Dental Surgeons faded away because their superior fillings were too expensive.)

The present German for mercury is Quecksilber...but spellings change, and the phonetics are the real point.

Orthodoxy holds it comes directly from Dutch, "quacking salver". Perhaps it's a Dutch pun on mercury pedllers - i unnerstan the Dutch love punning - but it makes the ADA/ASDS story less likely.

It'd be nice to confirm or refute the ADA/ASDS part, in any case. 142.177.169.163 00:02, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The ADA confirms fragments of it:

1833-1850 The Crawcours (two brothers from France) introduce amalgam filling material in the United States under the name Royal Mineral Succedaneum. The brothers are charlatans whose unscrupulous methods spark the "amalgam wars," a bitter controversy within the dental profession over the use of amalgam fillings.

1840 The American Society of Dental Surgeons, the world's first national dental organization, is founded. (The organization dissolves in 1856.)

but the two organisations were not contemporary:

1859 Twenty-six dentists meet in Niagara Falls, New York, and form the American Dental Association. 142.177.169.163 00:10, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

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Re. placebo: There is now lots of research targeting at the immune system which can be condtioned, thereby establishing a link between the body and the mind. A link we have known for many years without really knowing how it worked. Eg. mice were given a medium strong poison in a sugar solution upon which they felt strong nausea and lost their fur. Six months later they were given just the sugar solution upon which they reacted likewise. /Sigvard Lingh

I found the above text posted by someone who also deleted the See also section. While this study may be true, I'm not sure it belongs in this article. I'm putting it here in case anyone wants deal with it. -Willmcw 00:23, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Non-neutral tone of the article

The article reads like a diatribe against what the author perceives to be "quackery". Whilst I agree with most of the assertions about what is quakery, the tone of the language makes the article seem less informative and more pointlessly emotional.

This article should be rendered into a more encyclopedic language and into a NPOV piece. Evidence of why various things are generally perceived by medical professionals to be quackery would be useful to this end.

However, I must admit my fascination for this topic and that I believe there is potential for something very interesting.

Rintrah 13:58, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Let's see what we can do. Edwardian 2 July 2005 06:44 (UTC)

I agree also. The points made are difficult to contradict (although I believe that a complete lack of bias is impossible for such an inherently opinionated creature as a human) but the manner in which they are phrased implies quite a distinct dislike for so-called "Quackery" (not sure I agree with the use of this word as the main identifier)which is perhaps inappropriate to an encyclopedia. This is especially true of the opening statements, and the "Modern Quackery" part. There is also an implication (although perhaps my own perception is flawed) throughout the article that a victim of such ineffective/alternate medicine is stupid, that it is their own fault- the point that many arguments made by the purveyors of such treatments can be very convincing needs to be enforced. Similarly, although there is an attempt made at giving arguments for the benefits of so-called Quackery it seems somewhat atrophied in comparison to the majority of the article... to me, anyway. Nevethless, I felt that on the whole it was a well-written article- don't allow my comments (mere opinion, after all) to detract from your acheivement! I just felt that the overall tone is more suited to that of an editorial. 7Munkys 11:37, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

I think your observations are spot on and agree there is much still to be changed... in tone and content. I don't think victims of quackery are necessarily stupid, nor do I think quacks are necessarily malevolent (as the original author suggested). Edwardian 22:17, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I attempted to fix some of the NPOV violations on this page. The page still needs a lot of work, but I think this is at least a step in the right direction... Pikhq 06:22:22, 2005-09-11 (UTC)

It is. Good work! Edwardian 17:13, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

I do not feel this article conforms to NPOV standards. Who has the right to label something as "quackery," perhaps we should list the other articles as "possible forms of quackery." --Ariadoss 01:02, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction

The last part of the Introduction states: "In libel cases in US courts against people who accused others of being guilty of quackery, the courts have ruled that accusing someone of quackery or calling him a quack is not equal to calling him a fraud — that in order to be both a quack and a fraud, the quack has to know that the medical services provided are unproven and ineffective." I don't understand the relevance. It's already clear that "it is often difficult to distinguish between those who knowingly promote unproven medical therapies and those who are mistaken as to their effectiveness", so can we get rid of this? Or can we at least have a couple references for the statement so it can be cleaned up a bit? Edwardian 2 July 2005 08:06 (UTC)

[edit] History

The first paragraph of the History section states: "This is not to imply that all shamanism is quackery. The differentiation is real healing versus false hope, regardless of the medical tradition. Often it is difficult to tell the difference." Again, I don't understand the relevance...or even what this means. This article is about what quackery IS, not what shamanism is NOT. Can we get rid of this, or improve the message here? Edwardian 2 July 2005 08:16 (UTC)

[edit] do some entries belong?

Going down the list, some of the entries have (at a minimum) a few solid mainstream studies showing that *some* of their claims are correct to *some* extent. Mind you, I'm not talking about their theoretical explanation of how they're supposed to work, just the practical effects. I would put Chiropractic, EMDR, Magnet therapy and Reflexology in this category. I'm not sure that they should be entirely removed from the list since they are definitely controversial, but I don't think it's fair to simply describe them as quackery either. Perhaps a subdivision to the list as "other controversial"? Any thoughts? I'd be happy to dig up some references if there is interest. ObsidianOrder 4 July 2005 16:37 (UTC)

I don't think the incorporating some mainstream ideas entitles the quackery label to be removed for most of the examples, however, I understand the point you are trying to make. The list is currently entitled "See also", but it could be changed to "Other controversial topics" or "Questionable methods" or something similar so that the reader can decide whether or not something is quackery after reading more about it. I did change "Eye related quackery" to "Eye related". Edwardian 4 July 2005 17:12 (UTC)

Chiropractic and the others definitely deserve listing. In fact, a lot more could be added with reference to wiki articles: acupuncture, applied kinesiology, and naturopathy to name a few. JM

I strongly disagree that Chiropractic should be included in this Quackery category. Chiropractic is backed by proven science. Levine2112 03:20, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I guess it depends on what you consider "proven science," because I don't believe that it's backed by any science other than pseudoscience. --CDN99 14:38, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

There are a number of scientific articles referenced in this discussion. They are experiments conducted following the scientific method. Control groups, placebos, random sampling and what-not. This is science. Not magic. Not a religion. Not pseudoscience. Science. Levine2112 20:13, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

It depends on what kind of chiropractor. The reformist chiropractors who acknowledge chiropractic to only address musculoskeletal issues do practice evidence based chiropractic[5]. They disavoy the claims of their brethren.--DocJohnny 00:57, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

No. YOu are still ignoring the research that demonstrates chiropractic's effectiveness in promoting general health. Check the links on this page. Levine2112 23:54, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I respect the reform movement in chiropractic, as all medical practitioners should. I think they practice effective evidence based treatments. If you actually have any studies that prove chiropractic is "effective in promoting general health" other than in improving musculoskeletal function, please share. I am sure the reformist chiropractors would love to hear it. Which links should I look at? I don't see any research revealing this effectiveness. And you have? If you have, point them out in pubmed. Regardless, the fact remains that some chiropractors have been and still are involved in well known quackery as I mentioned above.--DocJohnny 00:57, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Here's some research that a quick Google search uncovered: Chiropractic manipulation affects the difference between arterial systolic blood pressures on the left and right in normotensive subjects.. Oh and here's something else: Surrogate Indication of DNA Repair in Serum After Long Term Chiropractic Intervention – A Retrospective Study Do you want more? Oh, and I read this. You said: "A little perspective on pseudoscience and origins. For what it's worth, keep in mind that at the time of the founding of osteopathy, scientific medicine had not quite developed yet. There were no vaccines, no antibiotics. Phlebotomy was still practiced by MD's therapeutically. So it was pseudoscience vs. pseudoscience." Isn't it fair to consider that if MD were practicing what you call "pseudoscience" then and now they are not, then the same could hold true for chiropractors? Oh, and yes some chiropractors may practice what you deem quackery, but the same can be said about MDs. You know, I was sick last year and because of insurance reasons I had to go to an internist. First, he determined that I didn't have a bacterial infection but then prescribed antibiotics nonetheless. Quack! Then he told me that my electrolytes were low and that I should be drinking Coke. Quack! Quack! I told the doctor about SmartWater, a water that can be bought in most grocery stores that has salts added for electrolytes. He said that if he told his patients to drink that, they wouldn't follow his advice. Come on! What a quack! Oh, an incidentally, after the required visit to the MD, I went to my chiropractor and what do you know? I was better the next day. Hmm. Funny how that always seems to work for me. Levine2112 03:07, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Neither of your articles come close to proving chiropractic improves general health. And as for your quote of my post on someone else's talk page? Of course some chiropractors are no longer practicing pseudoscience. We call them reformists. They even have an [association. As for MD's practicing quackery, we know some do. Attacking MD's is not a defense of chiropractic. --DocJohnny 04:10, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

The fact is, there is scientific research supports the claim that chiropractic promotes general health. I have presented only a fraction of it. Please check Journal of Vertebral Subluxation Research for more and more peer-reviewed SCIENTIFIC research. Science, not fantasy. Not magic. Not religion. And certainly not quackery. Levine2112 04:33, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

And your examples were of 1) affecting blood pressure for an unspecified time period, which does not necessarily correlate with health and 2) an unproven blood test. There are good evidence based chiropractors out there. That doesn't change the proveable fact that a lot of them are engaged in quackery. --DocJohnny 06:31, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure we can reach a reasonable understanding. I think the article just needs to be made NPOV, even if there is some sort of official source that considers something a quakcery we should say "Acording to [insert official source here] [insert name of quackery] is considered to be a quackery." Or something else to that effect. My main concern is according to *who*? Virtually every source will be opionated, that is my problem with this article. --Ariadoss 09:05, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Like I have stated earlier, if anyone is arguing for removing the "See also" section entirely as POV, perhaps that should be discussed. --DocJohnny 12:41, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes! Remove the "See Also" section. And remove any reference to an existing profession from the body of the article as well. As "Quackery" is an aspersion, anything associated with it will consider the association an attack... will consider it unfair... will consider biased. This would be like creating an article called "Idiot" and putting "George W. Bush" and "Dan Quayle" in there. This is all just opinion and conjecture. I would even got so far as saying that the "Quackery" article is inherently a bad article because it leads to juvenile finger-pointing and name-calling. But if it must remain, it should only provide a definition of the word and the history behind it, making no reference to opinions of what some people think is quackery. I think everything there is could be and probably is considered quackery by at least one person in the world. All religions, all political parties, all diets, and yes all healthcare. Show me a belief and I'm sure we can find people who hold that belief to be nonsense. Associating professions with quackery, or making quackery a category with professional subcategories beneath it will only lead to an endless cycle of NPOV disputes (as demonstrated here in this discussion about chiropractic). I propose that we strip down this article to the bare minimum. Define the word. Give it some background. Then move on. Clearly, this article was only created to promote hatred (and that it is doing). The same goes for "Pseudoscience". The term is inherently an attack. It's a biased, opinionate label that is just plain slanderous. It is calling something "fake science". Again, it's like having a category called "Bad" and putting all the things that you think are bad in there. It's all opinion and conjecture and there's no way of controlling NPOV. Levine2112 20:21, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, the article should be written more like a definition to maintain objectivity. Some of these things labelled as Quakery are not researched thuroughly enough, for example now Chiropractors are considered legal Doctors when before they were not. Also, anyone can argue the placebo effect (another article with POV issues) even for conventional medicine.--Ariadoss 05:15, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Pretty much everything in the "pseudoscience" and "alternative medicine" categories is likely to be reasonably called quackery. --StoatBringer 19:27, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Exactly! JM

[edit] definition

I just want to get some discussion about the definition, which I don't think is really well covered in the article. Perhaps armed with that we can better determine what belongs or doesn't. From several dictionary definitions, it seems to me that there are two components to something being quackery: (1) it is not effective as a medical treatment and (2) it is falsely represented as effective. Specifically, the definitions I'm working from are:

• "Deliberate misrepresentation of the ability of a substance or device for the prevention or treatment of disease" CancerWeb
• "a pretender to medical skill; of, relating to, or characteristic of a quack; especially : pretending to cure diseases" Merriam-Webster
• "An untrained person who pretends to be a physician and dispenses medical advice and treatment.; A charlatan; a mountebank." American Heritage

None of the definitions in any way depend on the theory behind a treatment (e.g. whether it is correct, scientific or supported by evidence), or whether the practitioner believes the treatment to be effective (except the first one which says "deliberate"); they only depend on the treatment's actual effectiveness. Moreover, it is not reasonable to expect that any treatment be effective 100% of the time; therefore to be a "misrepresentation of effectiveness" a supposed quackery practice has to either be very close in effectiveness to placebo, and/or its claimed effectiveness has to be very different from its actual effectiveness, and/or it has to be represented as an equally effective alternative to a treatment which is in fact substantially more effective. Does that sound like a reasonable definition? ObsidianOrder 01:28, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Based on that, what fits and what doesn't? Anything which has never been demonstrated to be effective despite considerable study (homeopathy, ...) automatically fits. Practices which have been demonstrated to be effective for some conditions (acupuncture, chiropractic, ...) may fit depending on whether or not they make exaggerated claims. (Note: a claim which is not supported by sufficient evidence is not necessarily quackery, it has to be falsified by evidence in order to be definite quackery.) Granted, practitioners in those fields sometimes do make exaggerated claims and even claims which have been shown to be wrong. However, you have to consider that on a case-by-case basis. Some practitioners which misrepresent the effectiveness of their treatments may be quacks, and others which don't may be legitimate healers. That doesn't mean the field as a whole can be described as quackery. ObsidianOrder 02:01, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Chiropractic has not been demonstrated effective for some conditions. Spinal manipulation by a masseur, physical therapist, osteopath, chiropractor, relative or friend is 'probably' effective for alleviating low back pain of short duration. Claims of efficacy for acupuncture are shaky. My opinion is that when the overwhelming majority of claims is unsupported, the whole thing is quackery. If any claim is supported, that claim becomes ordinary medicine. JM

JM - "chiropractic has not been demonstrated effective" and "claims of efficacy for acupuncture are shaky" - you are simply wrong. Please read up on this (PubMed links: chiropractic - 3300 articles, acupuncture - 9700 articles) before making such claims. They are not effective for everything that is claimed, and perhaps not as effective in general as some people claim, but they are very effective for some conditions based on considerable peer-reviewed research (which you can find in PubMed, for example). ObsidianOrder 23:12, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

It is not sufficient to count articles, one must be able to evaluate them. When a quack submits a paper, guess who the "peer reviewers" are. That's right- other quacks! I have examined quack literature, it has the sophistication of a middle-school science project. I stand by my statement and challenge anyone else to study the science and then move any practice from quackery to mainstream (where proven methods exist). JM

JM - yes, I have indeed read a number of these articles. You're right that it is not the article numbers alone. You may not like studies published in "Zhongguo Zhong Xi Yi Jie He Za Zhi" but I wonder what your objection would be to ones in "Pain" (e.g. [6] [7] [8]) . "Anaesthesia" ([9]), "Anesthesiology" ([10]), all highly reputable journals? (There are lots more, I'm just picking a few to illustrate here). I don't know what you have examined, because you haven't cited anything specific, you're just throwing around wild accusations. How do you know who the peer reviewers are anyway? (That is generally kept secret by journals.) Also, the opposite of quackery is not "mainstream", it is "effective". Whether something is widely used and accepted has no bearing on whether it is quackery or not. ObsidianOrder 23:22, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Great, you have read articles. Now, are you able to evaluate them? Even "reputable" journals publish nonsense; but scientists evaluate and reject those articles. (I am waiting for the demonstration that chiropractors and acupuncturists can cure multiple sclerosis, as many of them claim). Of course I don't know the individual reviewers of quack articles. That point is merely silly. I can judge the quality of the reviewers who approve the articles, and they are in keeping with the sophistry of the "research."

Depending on his/her particular superstition, an acupuncturist may claim knowledge of more than 2,000 needling locations. How many of those have been adequately established as effective? JM

"are you able to evaluate them?" - yes, as it happens I can. "I can judge the quality of the reviewers who approve the articles" - only if you've read them, which I don't think you have. "How many of those have been adequately established as effective?" - 20-100 depending on your definition of "adequately". However that is for modern studies only; the people who originally discovered these points were (naive) empiricists who kept extensive records, going back a thousand years or so. Traditionally there are only ~400 points, by the way. "sophistry of the "research."" - sophistry of your continued wild accusations, perhaps. You still have to cite a single specific study. Let me help you out there: Acupuncture. NIH Consensus Statement 1997 Nov 3-5; 15(5):1-34 (see the bibliography); and Acupuncture: Review And Analysis Of Reports On Controlled Clinical Trials, World Health Organization, 2002. ObsidianOrder 11:25, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

The NIH panel was an assembly of advocates and the resulting consensus was a foregone conclusion that was widely castigated by real health professionals. The WHO often supports folk remedies out of sensitivity for local customs, not evidence of effectiveness. I cannot prove the negative, that quack articles do not adequately support quack remedies. You have been challenged to show the positive- that some claim of acupuncture is supported to the extent that it can be called "medicine." By the way, it is no accident that acupuncture originally featured 365 points. It made sense to the original "empiricists" to match the number of days in a year.

Consider that auriculotherapists make the same claims as acupuncturists; but all the points are in the ear. Acupressurists make the same claims as acupuncturists; but do not use needles. Reflexologists make the same claims as acupressurists; but all the points are on the foot. Therapeutic Touch matches all those claims; but does not require contact. The list goes on a lot longer. Is there anything imaginable that does not work? Or does it make more sense to conclude that these are all merely products of fertile imaginations?

Think about it- 200 years ago all healthcare was quackery and a person's expected lifespan (35 years) was the same whether one subsribed to leeches or homeopathy or acupuncture. Today, you can expect to be healthy past the age of 70. Acupuncture and homeopathy have played no part in those advances. If there were anything to "alternative medicine" (AM) there has been plenty of time to demonstrate it and convert it to "plain medicine." That is why all of AM should be labeled quackery. As we say: AM that works is called "medicine." JM

"widely castigated by real health professionals" - apparently the definition of a quack is "anyone that JM disagrees with". "I cannot prove the negative" - you can start by offering a detailed critique of one of the studies i cited, for example. "You have been challenged to show the positive" - and I have produced a very large body of evidence that shows that. "make the same claims as acupuncturists" - irrelevant to acupuncture itself. "Is there anything imaginable that does not work" - since how acupuncture works is not well understood, there is no a priori reason to assume anything else will not work. any such claims can be tested (and sometimes they have been), and discussed on their own merits. "200 years ago all healthcare was quackery" - riiight. which is why now we look for new drugs isolated from traditional herbal remedies. you may note that there is excellent correlation between what herbs were traditionally thought to be good for and what we think they are good for based on their chemical composition today (in cases where we know what the components are and what they do). you may remember what the traditional remedy for headache was (hint: you probably have some in your medicine cabinet). "expected lifespan (35 years)" - that is a misleading average produced by very high infant and early childhood mortality. the upper quartile was not that different from today's, for example. "Acupuncture and homeopathy" - apples and oranges. one is supported by tons of evidence, the other by next to none. "all of AM should be labeled quackery" - if mainstream medicine were actually willing to use techniques from AM that work, there would be no need for AM. however often they are not, regardless of the evidence, and so we have the current situation. AM is medicine that works but mainstream medicine stubbornly refuses to acknowledge, plus a number of frauds. ObsidianOrder 01:19, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

JM - i have produced hundreds of peer-reviewed studies in reputable publications; you have yet to cite a single specific piece of evidence. obviously you believe what you believe for reasons that don't have anything to do with the facts. further conversation on this basis is pointless. ObsidianOrder 01:29, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Clearly, I am overmatched by your intellect and education. I leave the field in your possession. JM

[edit] Iatrogenic deaths

It is very intereting to see what is labeled as a quackery. Some mainstream providers use their power of being mainstream to label with "Quackery" many treatments that are far more efficient. For all of those that label acupuncture, homeopathy, herbalisam and many other great therapies as quackery, I would love to chellenge them to provide a nice label for the fact that "Orthodox therapies now kill over 250,000 hospital patients a year, ranking 3rd as a leading cause of death in the U.S." What is a quackery nowdays? Here is some interesting reading for those that are quackery labelers http://drtong.com/problem.html http://www.mercola.com/2004/jul/7/healthcare_death.htm Enjoy your reading Karen Lee

• Actually, the claim that "orthodox therapies now kill over 250,000 hospital patients a year" is not a fact. That smug claim has spread like a virus from one alternative medicine website to another (as demonstrated above), but its origins are merely a context-dropping distortion of figures cited in Dr. Barabara Starfield's commentary in JAMA, "Is US Health Really the Best in the World" in which she estimates that there are "225,000 deaths per year from iatrogenic causes". Although that terrible figure indicates much needs to be done to improve healthcare in the United States, those who toss it around without full understanding should realize that "orthodox therapies" and "iatrogenic causes" are not one and the same. Edwardian 20:25, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

that was 780,000 allopathic iatrogenic deaths by that article, and 120,000 is the lowest I have come across. You only have to ask how many would be killed by Naturopathic herbalism, or Orthomolecular medicine (a proven replacement for drug medicine)---a handful or none from a proper qualified doctor of those therapies. And when you know cancer chemo is only effective for 5% of patients but given to 50%, you don't have to be a genius to do the maths. john 19:55, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Edwardian - I understand your point that iatrogenic causes is not literally the same as "orthodox therapies", but I'm not sure why the distinction is significant. Perhaps you can elaborate? One of the key elements of the definition of quackery is misrepresentation. Do "orthodox therapies" misrepresent their risks? Arguably, in light of that number, yes. ObsidianOrder 23:29, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Regarding: "I understand your point that iatrogenic causes is not literally the same as 'orthodox therapies', but I'm not sure why the distinction is significant. Perhaps you can elaborate?" The distinction is very significant because of this: "Orthodox therapies now kill over 250,000 hospital patients a year" implies that the deaths are primarily due to the proper adminstration of those therapies, whereas "225,000 deaths per year from iatrogenic causes" implies that the deaths are primarily due to other factors including errors or the improper administration of those therapies. Regarding: "One of the key elements of the definition of quackery is misrepresentation. Do 'orthodox therapies' misrepresent their risks? Arguably, in light of that number, yes." Are you able to offer specific evidence to support that claim because I don't interpret those numbers the same way? Risk need not be misrepresented for an iatrogenic injury or death to occur. If patients are being lied to about the efficacy or risks of a specific therapy, perhaps it should be listed in this article. Edwardian 05:49, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, I see what you mean. I guess it depends on how much of that total comes from proper administration and how much from improper, doesn't it? I would also argue that even if most of this comes from improper treatment, a certain level of human error (and treatment that can be seen as improper only in hindsight) is inevitable, but how serious the results of such errors are depends to some extent on whether that treatment is inherently risky or prone to risky mistakes. "specific evidence" - I'll dig for that when I have some free time. I do remember a study that correlated several statistics with negative iatrogenic results and also with overall outcomes - the conclusion was that there is an optimum level of treatment (i.e. length of hospital stay, volume of drug prescriptions) that maximizes positive effects but minimizes iatrogenic negative effects, and that level is considerably lower than the typical level in most areas in the US. I'll see if I can find that study. ObsidianOrder 07:47, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Misdiagnosis, or application of the wrong treatment, can cause iatrogenic harm without being unorthodox. However, if a doctor eschews proven therapy and kills you by treating Hodgkins lymphoma with laetrile, that is iatrogenic, it is also malpractice. If a naturopath does the same, it is business as usual. Perhaps that is a subtle difference. JM

Give the naturopath some credit first. Allow the profession the respect it deserves. Accredidate universities that teach it. Allow it to be recognized federally, licensed and sanctioned. Allow insurance companies to pay for homeopathic treatments. Call it medicine, not quackery. After that, you can put it on the same legal ballpark as an MD. Levine2112 05:42, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Definition?

The introductory sentence is illogical:

Quackery, is the practice of producing medicine which may lack any commonly respected evidence of their effectiveness.

If that's the true definition, then "Homeopathy is quackery" is true and NPOV! Using the definition above, "Homeopathy is quackery" translates to "Homeopathy may lack any commonly respected evidence of their effectiveness", which is true and NPOV. QED. But this is backwards. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Does not the "maybe" or the "scientists think" part belong in the connection between treatments and quackery, instead of the quackery definition? Like this:

Quackery, is the practice of producing medicine which lacks any evidence of effectiveness.

Homeopathy is held to be quackery by most scientists.

This article is about quackery! It's about something that does not have an effect beyond placebo! There is no question of whether quackery works. The question is whether the label "quackery" is applicable to something. I'll change the sentence. --Hob Gadling 09:53, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

• As ObsidianOrder suggested at the beginning of the previous section, falsely representing an ineffective remedy as effective is also part of the definition. Indeed "boaster" is part of the original translation. I'm going to update the definition from: "Quackery is the practice of producing medicine which lacks any evidence of effectiveness." to "Quackery is the practice of promoting medicine which lacks any evidence of effectiveness." Edwardian 20:28, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Definition 2

Practitioners of alternative medicine (defined as non-allopathic medicine) say the term is used to persecute doctors practicing alternative medicine, as this quote points out:

"The War Against Quackery is a carefully orchestrated, heavily endowed campaign sponsored by extremists holding positions of power in the orthodox hierarchy.....The mutimillion-dollar campaign against quackery was never meant to root out incompetent doctors; it was, and is, designed specifically to destroy alternative medicine...The millions were raised and spent because orthodox medicine sees alternative, drugless medicine as a real threat to its economic power. And right they are...the majority of the drug houses will not survive."--Dr Robert Atkins, M.D.

[edit] Gerson

Followers of this kind of topic might like to check put Max Gerson and Gerson therapy. I don't know enough about the topic to edit them, but I can see at least that they're blatantly POV, being primarily written by a proponent of the therapy. Tearlach 13:03, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

At least he knows what he is talking about, Gerson was curing 50% of terminal cancers according to the research available. To call Gerson a quack is to buy into the Medical Industry propaganda. john 19:48, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

A naturopath did a followup study on people who received this miracle 50% cure. At 5 years, out of 21 patients, only 1 was alive and the survivor still had cancer. Austin S, Dale EB, DeKadt S. Long-term follow-up of cancer patients using Contreras, Hoxsey and Gerson therapies. Journal of Naturopathic Medicine 5(1):74-76, 1994.--DocJohnny 20:59, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Civility

I have been reading through the above discussions and am quite shocked at the abbrasive behaviour of a/some user/s. Please bear in mind that personal attacks are not allowed and you must try and be civil at all times. Please can all parties taking part in the above discussions (not arguments - try and keep calm) take a step back and calm down before admins get involved and start blocking people -localzuk 13:17, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

The very nature of the article "quackery" is uncivil as it is a pejorative label. Assigning that label to any group is most certainly an attack and will typically result in an equal but opposite recourse. I think the best things we can do is remove all mention of any groups (religious, professional, political) that some people feel deserve the derisive "quackery" label, because name-calling always results in NPOV (and bitterness and anger). Let's define "quackery", give its history and move on. Levine2112 00:21, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I understand your comment but have to say that in this case I feel you are slightly wrong. If an article is npov, the best way to fix it is to discuss calmly with people - a comment about a profession is not a personal attack and should not be treated as such. I would suggest that launching into a name calling agument is not constructive and that the time could be better suited by re-writing the article as a temporary version and directing the viewers of the talk page to it for comment.

Remember, just because one user did something wrong does not give another user the right to become uncivil and launch personal attacks. -localzuk 00:31, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

You are absolutely right. Attacking an entire profession, religion, or political view is not personal. It's bigger than one person. And name-calling - like "quackery" - is not constructive. So please let me know if you are in favor of:

1. Removing any accusations that a particular group has been deemed as "quacks"
2. Defining "Quackery" with unbiased terms
3. Including a factual history of the term "quackery"

I believe that as the article stands right now, would be satisfactory in doing all three of these (now that references to specific professions have been removed as well as the "See Also" category.

Levine2112 00:47, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

And will you be removing the personal attacks above? --DocJohnny 02:51, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Should I remove yours while I'm at it? Levine2112 02:59, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Done. Levine2112 03:07, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I am in favour of the article not attacking a profession. However, this isn't a 'carte blanche' to remove all criticisms from the article. If the term is used commonly to describe a profession - it should be included and reliable references given (ie. not competitors of that industry but independant organisations). If these cannot be found (which I believe will be the case) then they should not be included.

I also would like to say that your response did not cover a large chunk of my comment - still focusing on the specifics of the article rather than the overriding fact that being uncivil and personally attacking people is not good. -localzuk 09:33, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Again, I agree with you. Being uncivil and personally attacking people is not good. That's why we walk on a slippery slope when we have articles about pejorative terms. That's also why I went back and cleaned up all of the personal attacks made by myself and user DocJohnny in the discussion above. As far as including professions that are commonly described as quackery - I think that's too difficult to determine. For instance, there are a lot of organizations out there that claim to be independent and bash chiropractic, when in actuality they are all part of a anti-chiropractic network run by a biased MD (Stephen Barrett) and his cronies. It is rumored that they secretly get funding from the AMA to bash chiropractic and other medicines that threaten the income of MDs and pharmaceutical companies. Whether this is true or not, I cannot say for sure, but it is evident that are gunning to bring down chiropractic using clever and not so clever tactics all over the web (including Wikipedia). Levine2112 18:11, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

As is apparent in the history, none of my comments which were removed without permission were personal attacks, but rather statements of opinion regarding certain professions, objections to attacks, and some completely innocuous comments. There is a huge difference between stating an opinion on broad subjects and attacking another user personally. --DocJohnny 07:15, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Definition problems

To the extent that this article is intended to inform the public about a) the existence of quackery, and b) enable them to make informed decisions about the kind of medical care they seek, we have to be pretty precise. If we are to define quackery as treatments (never mind whether they are medical or not), the efficacy of which are "unproven," we are treading in tricky waters. Pharmaceutical companies and others who one would not typically characterize with "quacks" are very careful about stating their claims, typically by saying "in a double-blind, placebo-controlled study, 40 of 60 study patients reported relief in their headache symptoms within 3 hours of taking the medicine, compared with 10 out of 50 control patients. This study was corrected for blah blah blah." In other words, the efficacy is always claimed very narrowly to make it clear what is proven and what isn't. As it turns out, the knowledge of medicine is constantly evolving for broader or narrower claims as evidence to support those claims becomes available. My point is that "proven" or "unproven" is not a binary condition - those who advocate, let's say, distilled water as treatment for warts (to state what I would imagine is an absurd example), may claim that their treatment is proven because in their experience distilled water works in this way. They would further say that just because they can't afford a double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study doesn't mean that their observations are false or invalid. (This, incidentally, is why off-label prescriptions are not automatically labelled "quackery.")

The distinctions we are struggling with are those between:

• Proven - and if so, precisely what has been proven.
• Unconvincingly asserted - might be true, but hasn't been tested with a gold standard trial.
• As yet unproven - assumed to be true, but not fully tested
• Unlikely, given efforts to prove - efforts have been made to prove using gold standard trials, but there is no evidence to support the hypothesis
• Unlikely to be proven - the most problematic category, because who is to know?

Which of these constitutes quackery? --Leifern 16:43, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, since quackery is defined rather vaguely, any or all of those can be defined as quackery. Although there are formalized levels of evidence in medicine:

These are the levels of positive evidence, I don't think you can really grade negative evidence. However quackery usually has connotations of intention and financial gain. But that may be regional.--John^DO|^{Speak your mind} 17:06, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

My personal view is that quackery involves some level of misrepresentation. The worst case of this would be if a practitioner suggests a treatment that he/she knows won't work, which is hard to prove. But it would also include exaggerating the extent to which efficacy has been proven. --Leifern 19:05, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

May I suggest that we get away from attempting to define "what" is quackery? Any thing or practice can be considered quackery, if false claims are being made for its use in a given situation. In another situation the same thing or practice can be perfectly legitimate.

To illustrate the point I'll use "massage":

• Claim: Massage is effective for the relief of tense and sore muscles in the neck and shoulder regions, and thereby is useful for the relief of tension headaches.

• Claim: Massage is effective as a cure for cancer and AIDS.

The same method, but the "quackery" verdict is quite different.

This is why Barrett's definition is so useful, since it avoids these pitfalls:

To avoid semantic problems, quackery could be broadly defined as "anything involving overpromotion in the field of health." This definition would include questionable ideas as well as questionable products and services, regardless of the sincerity of their promoters. In line with this definition, the word "fraud" would be reserved only for situations in which deliberate deception is involved. [11]

Quackery is more about false claims (overpromotion), than it is about things. If the whole "definitions" section concentrates on this point, I think it will save much grief. -- Fyslee 22:25, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Examples

Is there any use in adding the example of laetrile (sp?)? That immediately comes to mind when I think of quackery. jgwlaw 03:49, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes indeed. In fact, the whole Mexican quack clinics thing could also be dealt with. -- Fyslee 04:54, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I am not very knowledgeable about this. Perhaps you, or someone more familiar with all this, could help add this? I only know generally about the bogus cancer 'treatment' laetrile and how people flocked to it out of desperation, risking their lives. I really don't know any more than that, about the Mexican quack clinics etc. jawesq 02:17, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I found an article on laetrile at Quackwatch.org that looks interesting. I also found a page from National Cancer Institute on it. I added an external link to the NCI page, since Quackwatch is already referenced. The NCI article is interesting. It appears that very little study was done on this drug, and what clinical studies were done did not have a control group! This is bizarre. One would think that a proper study would have been done on this - I assumed it had, and found laetrile ineffective. Of course, it was never shown to be effective, either.jawesq 02:21, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Bingo! You've pointed out the key issue - the burden of proof is on the claimant. Skeptics and scientists are under no burden to prove Laetrile (or any other method or claim) ineffective. Its proponents just have to prove it works and it'll get accepted. It's a matter of risk/benefit ratio. -- Fyslee 16:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

That is certainly true in a court. And, it is true with the FDA, as well - for approval, the drug/product/device must be proven safe and effective, not the converse. The problem with this, then, gets into funding and who is willing to fund research. Generally, it is manufacturers who stand to make a profit (patent) such products. Recent articles in the New York Times have discussed various conflicts of interest that government scientists have had, as well. And that is a problem. But that is another discussion.jawesq 16:39, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Main stream medicines is quackery

"Quackery is a derogatory term used to describe the unethical practice of promising health-related benefits for which there is little or no basis"; Definition on top of page, this is what the header proves. I'll continue to put it there because is seems the attributers on this page take the right to criticize every alternative health subject, but seem intolerant of critics when "science" is criticized. Again unless there is some acknowleddgement of this FACT, I'll put it there without discussion. --Homy 07:26, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the section "When mainstream medicines becomes quackery" as frank disinformation. DMP is not relevant to quackery, this doesn't refer to any medicine or treatment but to the efficiency of a delivery system. The section on antidepressants starts with a wholly false (and potentially dangerously irresponsible) assertion that "In general antidepressants fail to give meaningful advantages." supported by a non-peer reviewed non RS source. Disputes about the relative efficacy of some medicines do not make these quack remedies; medicines are regularly replaced as more effective specific treatments are introduced; their introduction is carefully regulated and they are evaluated on the basis of controlled trials. Gleng 16:14, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I fear that Homy misunderstands the subject at hand. Scientific disputes and uncertainties, the failings of physicians, malpractice, substandard practice, etc.., are not themselves quackery, although they may lend themselves to it and often are involved in it. They are important concerns, just as iatrogenesis is a legitimate concern. They can be described in detail in appropriate articles, but they aren't quackery. -- Fyslee 23:08, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

WHO: "Therefore, in considering DMPs as a strategy to improve quality of care and to tackle unacceptable variations in practice, such programmes should be introduced only in controlled settings where it is possible to evaluate their costs and benefits". unacceptable variations in practice fits the definition of quackery. health fraude by manifacturers fits the definition. The application of SSRIs and Paxil without proper guidance fits the definition. Suicites after using the drug, is not curing, fits the definition. I'm sorry if I attact the holy cow named: "Medical science". --Quasarq 16:01, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

What exactly is the relation of this User:Quasarq to User:Homy? Are we talking to one person here or two? Either way, a DMP is a disease management programme - i.e. it is a protocol for delivery of health care to a community; this is an issue of how best to deliver health care and has nothing to do with the efficacy of the treatments themselves, only about the varying efficacy and diffences in cost-effectiveness of different management approaches. It has absolutely no point of contact with quackery whatsoever. Drugs that have side effects are not quackery either; they are effective drugs with side effects. It is often to be expected that a drug which is effective will also have side effects; generally, only drugs that are wholly ineffective have no side effects.Gleng 16:29, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The definition of quackery is good. The interpretation who or what is involved will always be a point of difference and I think this discussion is senseless because there is no concede whatsoever. By the why, the citations are better than the whole article. --Quasarq 16:55, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Definition of quackery and quack

The definitions provided by online dictionaries are actually very good and have the advantage of being independant sources. More NPOV. NATTO 03:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Questionable references

I removed the paragraph about "health fraud" usually being used. I have never seen that in articles, newspapers, insurances releases about MDs who rip people off and exhibit bad behaviour. It always says that so-and-so MD has committed fraud and is being sent to prison.

Also, the reference was to a site called Quackwatch, and the article was written by an ex-psychiatrist, Stephen Barrett, who, according to the talk pages on an article about him, he failed his psychiatric boards, yet failed to mention this "minor detail" while being paid as an expert witness in psychiatric matters in the legal arena. According to the WP article on Quackery, this falls under the definition of Quackery: "A "quack" is "a fraudulent or ignorant pretender to medical skill. A person who pretends, professionally or publicly, to have skill, knowledge, or qualifications he or she does not possess; a charlatan." Quackery So it begs the question, if he was engaged in quackery, how could his viewpoint be considered reliable? Of course, it could be argued that if he practiced quackery, then he certainly could be considered having some degree of expertise in it! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Steth (talk • contribs) 10:41, 1 February 2007 (UTC).

(Sorry, forgot to sign, I'm tired) Steth 10:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I did a revert to the vandal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.85.160.11 (talk • contribs).

I got a message on my talk. Someone left me a message to support vandalism. It may be what is called a sockpuppet. Who in their right mind would support vadalism. A sockpuppet. Someone should put a block on both accounts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.85.160.11 (talk • contribs).

I am asking you not to claim vandalism without just cause. User:Steth gave cause for making the edit which you reverted. May I suggest that you read up on WP:VAN and learn Wikipedia's definition of vandalism. Levine2112 03:45, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

The vandal supporter is back. What a jerk. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.85.160.11 (talk) 03:50, 4 February 2007 (UTC).

Please avoid ad hominem attacks. Comment on the edits and not on the editor. Thank you. Levine2112 03:57, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Levine. I thought my reasons were perfectly legitmate and need to be discussed. Perhaps 69.85.160.11 doesn't understand that nightmares are not a reliable source. Steth 12:28, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

One man's "nightmare".... is your POV. Fine. Just don't push it onto Wikipedia. NPOV requres that all significant POV be presented. Just because you don't like Barrett (you're not the only one), doesn't negate the fact that he's considered to be a top expert on the subject by many others (most notably among the mainstream scientific and medical world, as well as consumer protection organizations), so your nightmare is not the only POV, nor is it shared by all others. POV suppression is not allowed here. Be an inclusionist. -- Fyslee (First law) 12:58, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

wikipedia talk pages fail WP:RS.Geni 13:18, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Now I'm quite confused. Fyslee claims that "POV suppression is not allowed here." I had understood that Wikipedia was not about POV but verifiable facts. The term "quackery" is totally subjective, pejorative, and who is and who is not a "quack" is just one's opinion. I don't believe these non objective quackery discussions belong on Wikipedia at all since it's so subjective. So someone please, is Fyslee being correct in his claim? Thank you. Ilena 20:14, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with the POV being pushed here about Barrett via various comments and his vanity links being edited into articles. The courts have clearly found him to be "biased and unworthy of credibility" despite his publicists claiming otherwise. They continue to advertise him and post his vanity links and their POV that he is a "top expert." That's just a silly notion that keeps getting edited into Wikipedia. Thank you. Ilena 20:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Barret and his website have been regarded as experts by numerous scientists and a variety of scientific and medical organizations. The relevant citations are on Quackwatch. JoshuaZ 21:45, 4 February 2007 (UTC

Is there any better expert on quackery, the topic of this article, than Barrett? If he's not the top expert then who is? -Will Beback · † · 21:47, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

In a recent case Barrett lost to me, he sued me in part (and tried to get $2000 out of me) for calling him a "quack." He, who has labeled thousands of fine scientists and doctors "quacks" and who (over) promotes himself by websites, blogs, lists, and webrings, he who had made a career out of this pejorative labeling of others, misguidedly claimed it was "defamatory" to call him one. It seemed absurd to me and I fully discussed this in my declarations which led to his defeat. [12] [13] The Judges agreed with me ... what is ... and what is not a "quack" is an opinion, subjective -- not a fact, and not who Barrett says it is. [14] Barrett and others in his group here may claim dominion over this term, but it is not theirs to claim, regardless of the enormous amount of time they spend labeling those with whom they disagree, with this pejorative and subjective insult which continue to promote here. Ilena 22:58, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect you do not appear to be in a position to offer a neutral opinion. I've asked if there is a more notable expert on "quackery". An assertion that he himself is a "quack" does not automatially prevent him from being an expert on the topic. -Will Beback · † · 23:04, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, I don't see where the justices agreed that you didn't defame Barrett. I see the Caliornia Supreme Court wrote:

• Plaintiffs argue that Barrett, as well as Polevoy, was defamed in the Bolen article. We need not address this claim, given our conclusion that Rosenthal is immune from liability under section 230.

That is neither an endorsement nor a condemnation. They simply say it doesn't matter. As for the Superior Court decision, it says your calling Barrett "quack" was a statement of your opinion, not of fact. Further, your pleadings apparently made the argument that doing so was "constitutionally-protected rhetorical hyperbole". So your assertion here that he is a quack is perhaps more rhetorical hyperbole. You're welcome to your opinions, but they shouldn't affect this article. -Will Beback · † · 23:27, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Plaintiffs argue alot of things that are not true. People here continually repeat falsehoods about this case on his behalf. For example, here is a direct quote from page 39 of the Supreme Court Decision, "As the lower courts correctly concluded, however, none of the hostile comments against Dr. Barrett alleged in the complaint are defamatory.""[15] See, three courts ruled this, and yet the shot down arguments from his losing case are still being repeated as if they were true. Ilena 23:52, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

BTW, your quote is not from the decision of seven justices, it's from the concurring opinion of one justice. In any case, so far as I can tell they all agree that the hyperbolic rhetoric is not defamatory because it is an opinion. I don't see how any of that really affects the issue of whether Barrett is a noteworthy commentator on quackery. -Will Beback · † · 00:07, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Judge Moreno concurred with the Superior Court and the Appeals Court, and the seven justices decided to use this quote as the final one of their 39 page decision. This indicates to me that it is highly relevant ... especially when I see throughout blogs, Wikipedia, and various lists, comments such as yours, that are repetitions of the losing plaintiffs, attempting to sway the facts of this case. It is one piece of the puzzle of why Barrett is no expert on anything but promotion and losing lawsuits. Anyone can see how this all relates to his hyperbolic promotion of himself and the multiple links he has posted here to his questionable opinions. He operations public relations groups or "media" promoting himself and his opinions. Thank you and have a lovely starry nite. Ilena 00:26, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Concurring and dissenting opinions always come after the majority opinion. But again, simply finding that the name calling was opinion rather than fact does not impact our decision here. Barrett was also called a Nazi, but that does not make him one. -Will Beback · † · 02:38, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Interesting comments. I certainly find the Superior Court, the Appeals Court and the Supreme Court's opinions of whether or not he was defamed (as he claims repeatedly and has others claim for him) far more reliable than the rants of a SLAPP happy plaintiff, with large judgements against himself and his suspended non-profit NCAHF, together who have lost several cases. 02:54, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

<-- Nothing in the court cases you've provided goes to the point we're addressing here. The courts merely said that the opinions of some people are only opinion, and that opinions alone are not defamatory. Likewise I could call George Bush a "bully" and it wouldn't be defamatory. That doesn't make it true. -Will Beback · † · 04:41, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay. It doesn't make it not true either, of course. Nor does calling Barrett an expert make it true. Especially in light of courts calling him "biased and unworthy of credibility." Often what Barrett (and his publicists) call defamatory, is in actuality accurate yet unflattering opinions. Good nite. Ilena 04:53, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Where was he called that? -Will Beback · † · 05:16, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

It was a stunning defeat in NCAHF Vs KingBio. NCAHF (Barrett is one of the founders & is VP & Head of Internet Activities) hired Barrett as an "expert." Here is the direct quote: "The trial court concluded NCAHF failed to prove a false or misleading statement.King Bio’s expert testified the products were safe and effective. The products were included in the Homeopathic Pharmacopoeia and complied with FDA guidelines.NCAHF presented no evidence that King Bio’s products were not safe and effective,relying instead on a general attack on homeopathy, made by witnesses who had no knowledge of, or experience with, King Bio’s products, and who were found to be biased and unworthy of credibility." After this loss, Barrett and his publicists tried to portray themselves as victims ... claiming it wasn't them but the lawyer's fault for the suit. Very typical of them to blame others for their disasters. They also lost to BOTANICAL LABORATORIES, INC and got a judgement of over $100K against them. That's when they got NCAHF suspended from the State of California, which many feel was a ploy so they couldn't get sued nor have to pay the judgement. Gotta run. Thanks for asking. Ilena 14:36, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

If you actually read the court decision, you'll see that the judge believed that Barrett (acting as NCAHF) paid Barrett's (acting as an individual) expert witness fees, which might be improper. (Barrett claims the judge was in error, but I have no idea whether he presented that argument to the judge.) The judge made no discussion of "expert" qualifications as an expert on quackery, because that was not an issue in the case. If anyone here can name a person more qualified to be an expert on quackery, let's see his or her opinion in the article. (And you don't know why NCAHF was suspended in California. The only credible reason presented is that the agent-of-process left the state. If you can provide even credible, if not reliable sources of another reasons for the suspension, I'd like to see it. Careful analysis of the timeline shows that they were suspended before they lost the appeal, which may explain why they lost.) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 21:55, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Forgive me, Arthur, but that is laughable. The only expertise that Barrett has in quackery is from himself being a quack... by definition. He purports to have expert knowledge in many subjects in whcih he is not qualified or hasn't studied. He even goes as far as making up his own definition of "quackery" which is completely different from what is in the dictionary... so yes, he is an expert in what he considers to be quackery and that is to say he is a legend in his own mind. Bottomline, Barrett is not an expert in quackery and is an unreliable source for the subject. Levine2112 19:17, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

So let me ask the question again - who is the leading expert on quackery? -Will Beback · † · 19:42, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the very term is very un-Wiki. It is totally and utterly subjective and pejorative ... all the things I thought Wiki was not. Best from Ilena Ilena 02:29, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't know. All I am saying is that it certainly isn't Barrett. By definition, he is a quack - a pretender of medical skill or knowledge. Levine2112 19:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

So Barrett may well be the top expert on quackery, seeing as there doesn't appear to be any other contender. Being a quack doesn't prevent one from knowing about quacks. By analogy, Harry Houdini couldn't perform real magic, just tricks. Yet he used his knowledge to uncover fraudulent mystics and was an expert on that topic. -Will Beback · † · 19:54, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

That doesn't mean that Barrett is the top expert. In fact, his expertise is quite askew - creating his own definition, does not make him an expert. He is an attack dog for mainstream medicine against alternative medicine. He never questions mainstream medicine and the pervasive quackery there. Sorry, he is too biased and has too many political and economical agendas to be considered an expert or even a reliable source here. Levine2112 19:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Here is a California Superior Court judge's assessment of Barrett in one of his many bouts with suing others:

Dr. Barrett was offered on several issues by the Plaintiff, but the Court found that there was substantial overlap on the issues that he and Dr. Sampson were asked to address. Thus, in order to avoid duplicative or cumulative evidence (see Cal. Evidence Code �� 352, 411, 723), Dr. Barrett�s testimony was limited by the Court to the sole issue of FDA treatment of homeopathic drugs. The relevancy of this issue was questionable at best, since the Plaintiff had previously asserted that its case did not depend on or seek to establish any violation of federal food and drug laws or regulations. Nevertheless, Plaintiff elicited testimony from Dr. Barrett on his experience with the FDA as it relates to regulation of homeopathic drugs.

Dr. Barrett was a psychiatrist who retired in or about 1993, at which point he contends he allowed his medical license to lapse. Like Dr. Sampson, he has no formal training in homeopathic medicine or drugs, although he claims to have read and written extensively on homeopathy and other forms of alternative medicine. Dr. Barrett�s claim to expertise on FDA issues arises from his conversations with FDA agents, his review of professional literature on the subject and certain continuing education activities.

As for his credential as an expert on FDA regulation of homeopathic drugs, the Court finds that Dr. Barrett lacks sufficient qualifications in this area. Expertise in FDA regulation suggests a knowledge of how the agency enforces federal statutes and the agency's own regulations. Dr. Barrett's purported legal and regulatory knowledge is not apparent. He is not a lawyer, although he claims he attended several semesters of correspondence law school. While Dr. Barrett appears to have had several past conversations with FDA representatives, these appear to have been sporadic, mainly at his own instigation, and principally for the purpose of gathering information for his various articles and Internet web-sites. He has never testified before any governmental panel or agency on issues relating to FDA regulation of drugs. Presumably his professional continuing education experiences are outdated given that he has not had a current medical licence in over seven years. For these reasons, there is no sound basis on which to consider Dr. Barrett qualified as an expert on the issues he was offered to address. Moreover, there was no real focus to his testimony with respect to any of the issues in this case associated with Defendants' products.

Enough said? Levine2112 20:07, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

OK. We'll make sure not to use him as a source for the issues he addressed in court, which were very limited. -Will Beback · † · 20:23, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I believe the judge's statement so to be symptomatic of a larger problem with Barrett. Here is more about Barrett from a fellow MD:

Is Stephen Barrett, M.D. a Quack?

According to the Quackwatch website, Stephen Barrett, M.D. says this about quackery: Dictionaries define quack as "a pretender to medical skill; a charlatan" and "one who talks pretentiously without sound knowledge of the subject discussed."

Stephen Barrett, M.D. does not have a degree in nutrition science. He has been trained in psychiatry but has not practiced psychiatry for many, many years and has, to the best of my understanding, never practiced nutritional medicine. In my opinion, Stephen Barrett, M.D., when it comes to the field of nutritional supplements, can be easily defined as a Quack since he pretends to "have skills or knowledge in supplements and talks pretentiously" without actually having clinical expertise or sound knowledge of herbal and nutritional medicine.

A person can't be an expert at a topic if they have not had hands-on experience. Would you feel comfortable having heart surgery by a doctor who has read all the medical books on how to surgically replace a heart valve but has never performed an actual surgical procedure in an operating room? Would you feel comfortable relying on nutritional advice from a retired psychiatrist, Stephen Barrett, M.D. of Quackwatch, even though he has not had hands-on experience using supplements with patients and does not have a degree in nutrition science?

Need more? Levine2112 20:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Compiling information on quacks isn't heart surgery. Even as a lapsed physician Barrett still probably has more training in medicine and the scientific procedure than most of the people he reports on. To the best of my knowledge, there are no degrees available in the study of quackery, so an expert would necessarily be self-taught. -Will Beback · † · 20:43, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

"Barrett still probably has more training in medicine and the scientific procedure than most of the people he reports on." This is conjecture and doubtful at that.

From a lawyer regarding Barrett:

"Stephen Barrett is part of a group of intolerant individuals that have labeled chiropractic as 'Quackery.' Even though they purport to be 'experts,' they generally have no training or even understanding of chiropractic. Ultimately, there is a danger that the 'big lie' that they spread could potentially be misinterpreted by the consumer and those that could benefit from treatment. Barrett is, perhaps, the most visible nemesis of chiropractic in this country. He is media savvy and has been regarded as the voice of anti-chiropractic advocacy."

As far as education and schooling goes, one equalizer in medicine is Board Certification. It should be noted that Barrett is not Board Certified (a distignuished characteristic of an "expert"). Barrett did take the board certification exams but failed the neurological portion. Still think he is an expert?

BTW, what I have heard purported about Barrett is that he is an "expert" in medical communication and the media. I would certainly be willing to accept that.

Levine2112 20:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

And who was paying this lawyer? "Who pays the piper calls the tune". -Will Beback · † · 20:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

And who pays Barrett? (Aside from the time he paid himself to act as an "expert" witness for something for which he was not a qualified expert.) Levine2112 21:51, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I dunno. Do you? -Will Beback · † · 21:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

That's just it. Nobody does and his filings for some of his "non-profits" are certainly suspect. For instance, we know that Barrett used "non-profit" money to pay himself from the NCAHF funds. We also know that NCAHF currently has an suspending business license in California where it has been with that status for nearly 4 years. There are just too many questions. Too many things that don't add up. The organizations are questionable just as is Stephen Barrett's expertise in the field of Quackery. We are dealing with a uncertain character here with very clear motivations.

"Twenty years ago, I had trouble getting my ideas through to the media, today I am the media." - Stephen Barrett

Levine2112 22:21, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

With regards to chiropractic, it should be noted that Barrett concedes that he is not an expert. From and ACA Journal interview:

JOURNAL: In that regard, you consider yourself an expert on chiropractic?

BARRETT: No, I'm a collector of information.

Levine2112 22:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Fortunately he doesn't work alone, and has plenty of advisors and chiropractors who help him. -- Fyslee (First law) 23:18, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, lynch mobs long ago discovered the principle of safety in numbers.--I'clast 01:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, they did didn't they, as they still do. Shot info 05:52, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] very questionable

A number of Quackwatch pages contain persistent errors and bias that used to (were supposed to) get one fired in academia and corporate research. Kauffman's statement "Watching the Watchdogs at Quackwatch" is very cautious, "...contaminated with incomplete data, obsolete data, technical errors, unsupported opinions, and/or innuendo". Amazing that Kauffman had this much temerity, given the propensity towards lawsuits of certain parties.

There are serious mistakes where QW et al have had over a decade to get their story straight on simple inequalities and reckless sweeping statements where known literature (published in the mainstream) for decades lays out the protocols i.e. QW categorically: X doesn't work, citing numerous tests of X at <1 - 6% of the proponents' least effective currently recommended protocols with X (rather than the most aggressive delivery protocols and much less than 1% of a physiological therapeutic limit). Certain Wiki editors relentlessly promote these articles anyway despite being repeatedly informed. This situation makes the "expertise" claims laughable, and IMHO, corrupt.--I'clast 22:14, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Articles from Quackwatch should be judged for suitability here on a case by case basis. Some are extremely suitable as internal references of the highest quality. Others are good as opinion (which is what Wikipedia is all about), others as external links, and some not suitable at all. The inclusion criteria here are different for each of those types of links. Since there are so many different types of articles and resources at Quackwatch, one must judge them differently, depending on the application.

So far we seem to be seeing too much "shoot-on-sight" POV suppression directed at any Quackwatch link. That is very unwikipedian POV suppression of opposing POV, a practice that is in conflict with NPOV policy. Editors should ensure and enable all POV to be represented. They must not suppress them. I shudder to think of what would happen if skeptics started doing that with alt med sources, with mere anecdotes are used as proof. Wikipedia is full of them. We allow them all the time, as long as it is clear that they are opinion, presented in an NPOV manner. The same applies to Quackwatch links. At the very least, they can be presented as opinion, which is the function of Wikipedia -- to present POV from all significant opinions. -- Fyslee (First law) 23:18, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

If anyone adopted "shoot-on-site" tactics, you would have seen links drop near zero overnight outside the trifecta (QW, SB, NCAHF). Although I have agreed (and operated) in principle that QW is sometimes a claimed majority opinion and sentiment, it is not a license for promotion & derogation nor do I see evidence that QW's opinion reflects a current majority on several subjects. I am not worried about unencyclopedic pov suppression, I am finding inferior, redundant, spammy QW links frequently referenced by serious POV problems and, on belated review, that WP appears to be a major, if not the major, QW link farm on the search engines where QW demonstrates substantial web saavy resources. hmmm.

Lest others think that I am single sided about this, they may not have seen what I politely do with some unscientific alternatives promoter type editors at Wiki (possibly considered worse than article deletion).--I'clast 01:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Shoot-on-sight is Barrett's trademark methodology

Given the certain 'dubious' aspects of ex-psychiatrist Barrett's history and his failure to disclose that he failed his psychiatric boards in legal proceedings before he testified as an expert witness for payments, seems to be enough reason to view him with much skepticism. Should, God forbid, anyone else have this in their background, they are drawn and quartered on his numerous hate-sites and their "expertise" would never be allowed on WP by the Barrett ministers. And, just what does he do with the increase in donations he gladly accepts from the hundreds of new links on Wikipedia?

His only training is psychiatry, nothing else. His websites are filled with his bigoted jargon and not remotely peer-reviewed. So why does his disciples plant his seeds of hate all over Wikipedia and defend them to the death with POV hard-fisting? That is very un-Wikipedian. These motives should be questioned. Steth 00:28, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

If Barrett is majority POV, shouldn't there be other sites that concur with them. Maybe we can use some of them instead. -- Dēmatt (chat) 03:29, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that is a fantastic idea but in the case of this article we are dealing with Barrett's own made-up definition of "quackery:

To avoid semantic problems, quackery could be broadly defined as "anything involving overpromotion in the field of health." This definition would include questionable ideas as well as questionable products and services, regardless of the sincerity of their promoters.

This is completely made-up to serve his own purposes and why is he notable enough to have his fictional definition included here. By his definition, any doctor who advertises is a quack. This is ridiculous. Quackery (with regardes to medicine and health) is defined as such: "medical practice and advice based on observation and experience in ignorance of scientific findings" or "an untrained person who pretends to be a physician and dispenses medical advice and treatment". There is nothing about overpromotion in any definition of quackery other than Barrett's. Whatever Barrett claims to be an expert in, by definition it isn't quackery. Maybe he is an expert in health marketing and media? Levine2112 05:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

If he is the only one saying it then wouldn't it be minority opinion? -- Dēmatt (chat) 12:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Not only minority, but tiny fraction of a minority. I don't think it is notable enough to include, plus it is misleading to the reader (it would have the reader assume that this fiction definition is an acceptable one). Levine2112 17:35, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Factual accuracy tag placed

I placed the factual accuracy on this article because as I look through other sources for this information, I do seem to get the impression that we may be going over the top relying on Barrett as the expert on quackery for a term that has been around since at least the 18th century. Maybe we should get some other sources for some of this information to get a more objective view of this concept. -- Dēmatt (chat) 15:30, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I have made some changes mostly to format and structure to make this flow better (I hope). The sections starting a Quackery Today are probably going to need some extensive rewrite and I see a lot of ^{[citation needed]} notations. I will look through them and see what I can find, but if it is something that you really want in, maybe a source would be nice to have real soon. Otherwise, I'm going to try and do a major overhaul to clean it up after lunch (for me:) -- Dēmatt (chat) 16:53, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, went through Quackery today section. Lots of POV stuff was here (both ways), but I think I got the jist of it. I have ignored specific claims against specific products, groups, etc., mostly because I don't think they added any real value for the reader and only seemed to be one sided arguments that were obvious and covered in the more general statements. Let me know what you think. Work on the next section later, unless someone wants me to stop. -- Dēmatt (chat) 18:53, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Done. I basically cleaned all of the Quackery defintion section out less one sentence, which was mostly because it was all apparently added piecemeal without references. I was concerned about verifiability of the info, being POVish and all. Hope ya like it! I will remove the tag now. -- Dēmatt (chat) 19:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Excellent work. I think the last part would be cleaning up the external links section to only list highly reliable and quackery relevant resources. I'm sure that will be a discussion first though. Levine2112 19:43, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edit

"White House Commission on Complementary and Alternative Medicine Policy" was the Commission extended in 2002 or allowed to lapse. In either case, what was the result(s) of the Commission relating to Quackery? Shot info 05:58, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm struggling with this one, too. I think the commission continues. I'm pretty sure there is controversy surrounding it, too. But don't know any real details. Is this the one that Dr Kats Dr. Katz was made a part of? Nope, he's not on any of the lists. -- Dēmatt (chat) 15:23, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I found this though. I'll see if it says anything we can use. -- Dēmatt (chat) 15:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Here's the executive summary. It is pretty long and talks about all the aspects of safety, need for research, need to define each CAM according to safety and effectiveness (quit using blanket CAM for all methods), need for education, need to include in insurance programs, etc. Pretty comprehensive. -- Dēmatt (chat) 15:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

When I read what you wrote here, something inside said Bingo ... I believe you've hit the nail on the head. What insurers pay for ... and do not, is a multi-billion dollar a year business. They have a lot to lose by accepting many of the treatments (mis)labeled quackery. I know, for example, many people who feel their lives have been enriched and lengthened by chelation ... one of the targets of the Barrett's various operations. His teams (mis) label CAM "SCAM" and have filled various internet medium with this campaign. Thanks for edifying what the Commission wrote. Ilena 22:33, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Definitely looking better

Thanks to all who contributed. However, in reading the 'reasons' ... it seems very POV. We still need some work on these. Ilena 21:19, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I think there is an unfair level of association on quackery with alternative medicine. Quackery is not limited to just what some people define as complemenarty or alternative medicines. Quackery exists just the same in mainstream medicines. This article shouldn't confuse the issue or lead the reader to believe that quackery is only found in the alternative realm. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 21:59, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Exactamundo! My feelings precisely. Thank you for saying it so well. Ilena 22:14, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Edit conflict... Levine, what you say is very true when you say it's not limited to alt med. Quackery has really nothing to do with origins or the methods themselves. It's all about false advertising, and that can happen anywhere.

Let me use "massage" as a simple example. If someone advertises that massage can relieve tensed up neck muscles and relieve tension headaches, we'd agree that was common sense. If someone advertised massage as able to cure Parkinsons or cancer, we'd scream "quack", and rightly so. It's the claim, not the method, that's the problem. Quacks don't just quack loudly, they quack their false claims loudly. The loudness of legitimate claims may be distasteful, but its not quackery. It's the falsity of the claim that makes the difference.

This quote, by the then-editor of the NEJM, Marcia Angell, MD, contains two key phrases, which I will highlight differently:

• "There cannot be two kinds of medicine - conventional and alternative. There is only medicine that has been adequately tested and medicine that has not, medicine that works and medicine that may or may not work. Once a treatment has been tested rigorously, it no longer matters whether it was considered alternative at the outset. If it is found to be reasonably safe and effective, it will be accepted." - Angell M, Kassirer JP, "Alternative medicine--the risks of untested and unregulated remedies." N Engl J Med 1998;339:839.

Marcia Angell is a clear thinker, and she doesn't hesitate to criticize the abuses of the pharmaceutical industry, and that's great. [16]

For more on terminology, here's a beginning. It needs a lot of work:

• Definitions for non evidence-based methods in the health care field.

-- Fyslee's (First law) 23:01, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

All good points. I'll keep that in mind. We should try to keep all methods "under the same roof" to keep from discriminating. A rose by any other name is still a rose. -- Dēmatt (chat) 23:41, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

That's pretty much my point. We should try to keep from mentioning specific methods as quackery in this article. (There may be exceptions, since some methods are never anything but quackery, in any guise they may appear. They are false and promoted using false claims, and have no legitimacy in any situation.) We present POV opinions from V and RS here, and present all sides, making it clear -- through the use of NPOV language -- that they are opinions from each side of the controversy. That's what Wikipedia is all about.

That's what's so great about Barrett's definition of quackery -- it doesn't focus on a method, but on its promotion, which results in him mostly attacking authorized MDs and other mainstream practitioners who promote and use legitimate methods in illegitimate ways, or who use illegitimate methods. It's the claim, and not necessarily the method, that's the problem. Quacks don't just quack loudly, they quack their false claims and/or illegitimate uses loudly. The loudness of legitimate claims may be distasteful, but the loudness itself is not enough to level charges of "quackery". It's the falsity of the claim, or the illegitmate use, that makes the difference.

We should concentrate on false claims (false advertising) as the key feature of this subject, and avoid the mention of specific methods (although there should be exceptions, since classic examples need to be provided). ANYONE can be guilty of quackery, regardless of their credentials (or lack thereof), and regardless of their past or present fame for good things. We should also be able to provide a few classic examples of people accused of being quacks, presented from V and RS in an NPOV manner. Such examples of accusations are numerous. The first part of the article should deal with definitional aspects, then historical, and later a few examples of methods and people, with clear explanations of why the method of promotion (from the definitional principles in the article's beginning) enables anyone to accurately "pin the tail on the donkey." It should then be clear to anyone that those particular accusations against methods or people are accurate, except to those who have their ulterior motives for seeking to deny that quackery exists at all (except among MDs, the FDA, etc..) Those people reveal that they wish to protect the finger pointing at their mainstream foes, and hide the fact that their other fingers point at their own beliefs and practices. To them quackery can't apply to ANYONE, as Barrett suggests, so they use ad hominem and straw man tactics in their criticisms of Barrett and the mainstream. They are not equal opportunity skeptics. Legitimate critics do as Dr. Marcia Angell does by leveling well-documented criticisms against mainstream abuses, without using those illegitimate tactics. -- Fyslee's (First law) 10:56, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Placebo" and "Placebo Effect"

I notice that in the "Reasons quackery persists" heading, both "Placebo" and "Placebo Effect" are included. Perhaps I don't understand the difference between the two, but it seems rather redundant.Siroo 22:19, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Repititiously redundant. lol. Good catch. Thank you. Ilena 22:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry that I reinserted it. The anon who deleted it seemed to be vandalising, but I see I was wrong. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 22:54, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conventional medicine and quacks

Some editors have been putting in phrases implying that certain "conventional" medical treatments may be quackery. Let's just come right out and say that (if we can find a reference), rather than adding unsourced (but probably sourcable) innuendos. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 00:02, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Good point, either that or try to make it generic as in all forms of treatment, because if we think of quackery, it happens in all forms. -- Dēmatt (chat) 00:12, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I sincerely believe that many pharmaceuticals have had scientists paid by industry sway the science and there are countless examples that fit the example under "fraud" in this article. I have a list of articles on this very topic that I'll post them when I catch a moment. Some exciting happenings on Barrett Vs Rosenthal right now and don't have as much Wiki time. I'm also learning more about the case against Quackwatch and Barrett and the elusive Allen Botnick. More soon. Ilena< (chat)

Lucrative Drug, Danger Signals and the F.D.A. Good example of what I'm discussing. Ilena< (chat)

Wow, I do think that is the kind of thing that is a problem. Is it quackery? Or is it fraud? Or is it a much bigger thing than both. IOWs, maybe that is more an example of corruption, greed? Which I suppose is one reason to promote quackery.. but is it something that we want to include in this article? -- Dēmatt (chat) 02:14, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Take your pick of possible descriptions for this. Fraud, bad communication, false advertising, etc.. I'm not sure it's exactly "quackery" though. It's much more complicated by human errors, greed, experimentation, learning from mistakes, etc.. Hmmm..... -- Fyslee's (First law) 11:14, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

From that list, I would have to go with Scam (with the big S), I suppose. But, we have to consider if we have all the facts or just a POV. -- Dēmatt (chat) 13:01, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Breasts Implants Belong in Quackery Museum - Dr. Joseph Mercola This link does not work on the article. I guess this wikilink below is what needs to be there. I haven't gotten brave enough to edit an article but I did want to let someone know. Thanks! "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quackery" --Crohnie 19:16, 11 February 2007 (UTC)