Template talk:Qing namebox
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[edit] Clan name
[[Chinese clan name|Clan name]] is obviously inappropriate and we have Manchu family name. It should be [[Manchu family name|Clan name]].
For the same reason, [[Chinese given name|Given name]] should be [[Manchu given name|Given name]]. --Nanshu 07:00, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Yes, feel free to make that change. For the given name, it's a bit more complex... after Kangxi the given names of emperors clearly become Chinese, with the use of the generation character (Yin for Yongzheng's generation, Hong for Qianlong's generation, etc.), so the Chinese given name article would also make sense for emperors after Kangxi. Hardouin 12:30, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
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- Thanks. I've already mentioned Manchu adoption of Chinese given names at Manchu given name. --Nanshu 07:49, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Manchu posthumous name
Hardouin, I noticed that you changed Manchu posthumous names "X Hūwangdi" to "Emperor X", but I'd like to revert.
Maybe "Emperor Gosin" is acceptable, but "Emperor Eldembuhe" sounds awkward to me because "eldembuhe" should be followed by a noun. It consists of:
- elde- (to shine) + -mbu- (causative suffix) + -he (perfective particle suffix).
So "Eldembuhe Hūwangdi" means "having glorified emperor." --Nanshu 07:00, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- I think we should leave it as it is. In Manchu it needs to be followed by a noum, from what I understand. But here we write in English, and grammatical endings of foreign languages are not relevant to us. People not familiar with Manchu or Chinese may not realize that Hūwangdi means emperor (Hūwangdi is a Chinese word by the way, pronounced huángdì in Mandarin, and imported into Manchu), so I think it is always a good idea to translate anything that is translatable. Of course to actually translate Eldembuhe itself would be too much probably. Also, note that your comment could also apply to the Chinese version of the posthumous name. After all, in the case of Shunzhi's posthumous name, Zhang (章) also needs to be followed by the word emperor (皇帝), Zhang being understood as an adjective. However when we write in English, we write Emperor Zhang (zhang litteraly means "brilliant, illustrious"). We dont write Zhang Huangdi just to respect the particular Chinese grammar. What do you think? Hardouin 12:49, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
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- In the first place should we translate only hūwangdi and huangdi in English and leave the rest untranslated? I'd like to use "Eldembuhe Hūwangdi" and "Zhang Huangdi," (and put full English translation if possible). In the current halfway method, they are still sets of meaningless strings for ordinary English speakers and look awkward for informed people. Anyway the reversion makes us feel odd more in agglutinating Manchu than in isolating Chinese. --Nanshu 07:49, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- I think the current half-way method is the method favored in English. We should not try to translate the temple and posthumous names, as sometimes it is quite unclear what the exact meaning is. On the other hand, it makes sense to translate the word "emperor" as this is clearly a common noun, and not a proper name. I don't think that the fact that Manchu is agglutinating is a problem. Japanese is also agglutinating, but when we translate 田中教授 in English we say "Professor Tanaka", we do not say "Tanaka Kyoju", and we do not say "Professor Middle Field". So the half-way method is the method used in English. Hardouin 15:04, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It is regrettable that you did not understand my point. We don't need to go into grammatical detail. We need only be aware that "emdembuhe" is not a proper noun. Here we cannot use an apposition because hūwangdi is a noun but eldmbuhe is a verb! So "Professor Tanaka" is irrelevant. (FYI, in brute force interpretation, "Emperor Eldembuhe" is a pseudo Manchu sentense that means "[the] emperor has glorified [unspecified object]," where "emperor" is the subject and "eldembuhe" is the verb, for Manchu perfective particle can end a sentence. Isn't it funny?)
I find it difficult to pick up a Japanese example that consists of a particle of a verb and a title, and is treated as a proper noun as a whole. If the problem is not clear for "zhang," what about Shi Huangdi? Do you use "Emperor Shi?" Shi Huangdi means the "First Emperor," and "shi" is not appositive with "huangdi." But "Shi Emperor" doesn't look good either. So we would call him "Shi Huangdi" and add an explanation about its meaning.
And for "Professor Middle Field," I don't mean to replace "Emperor Eldembuhe" with "Having Glorified Emperor." I'd like to attach the translation to the transliteration, just as I did at Khutughtu Khan. I think we have no problem keeping these posthumous names untranslated if their meanings are not clear. Actually, I don't know what külüg means (Külüg qaɤan = Khayišan). --Nanshu 00:57, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
