Talk:Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky

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[edit] Spelling His Name

ok, so how should we spell Tchaikovsky's name? I've seen a lot of different versions here. What is considered 'correct' transliteration? If/when we reach consensus, the content should be moved to a page with the agreed and the other pages redirect to it.

Pyotor would be the Russian word: for these purposes (an English encyclopedia), it should be Peter

I don't want to get involved in the mire that is a transliteration discussion, but I should think that "Peter Ilyich Tchaikovsky" is the most usual spelling of his name at this time in the West. Maybe (maybe) the article should be moved, but I ain't doing it. --Camembert

My opinion. This is a general problem with the similar Russian names and surnames (for example Chebyshev, Joffe, Fock (or Fok) and such). I know that many times even Russians can't agree what is correct latin transliteration. They can use several different names even in their passports and it is just fine at customs. Another problem is that Russian write western names in their own "strange" transliteration and not in the original (so Newton would be somehow Nyutn). Therefore I use (until I am stopped to do this by the other wikipedians) in English Wikipedia original Russian names, so I would also include in this particular article his Russian original name as Пьотр Илич Чайковски (This probably won't be shown correctly all over - fixed later on). And also for instance we westeners usually use only one (or first) name (e.g. John F. Kennedy). Russians, as I know, they call themselves not by surnames but with their name and their otchestvo (father's name - second name). Regarding Pyotr I do believe this is the right and the only way to traslate to latin Russian personal names. It is true that Peter is English name - but we can't translate "the meaning". It is okay untill we have a list of all posibilities and I am shure it would be very long. For instance how would be Tchaikovsky's daugter called in English then: Natasha Pyotrnovna Tchaikovsky or Natasha Peternovna Tchaikovsky? Best regard. -- XJamRastafire 09:22 Jul 28, 2002 (PDT)

Yes, "Peternova" does look vaguely ridiculous. My feeling was that "Peter Ilyich" would be best because it is the most common spelling in English speaking countries (I admit I have no evidence to back this up, but I suspect it is true - a quick Google search appears to back this up). But on reflection, I think it's probably best to consult a number of large English language music dictionaries (such as Grove) and see how they tackle the problem - I suspect that they will have used the same spelling we have here at present ("Pyotr Ilyich"). In any event, it isn't a particularly pressing problem so long as one central article is maintained with redirects dealing with any stray links. I think placing the cyrillic on the page is a good idea, but I can't see it, and I think somebody who can should do it. Thanks --Camembert

It would be Natalia Petrovna Tchaikovskaya, because:

Natasha is a diminutive of Natalia, and diminutives are not used with patronymics.
Pyotr is changed to Petrovna (his son, say Ivan, would be Ivan Petrovich T.)
the surname is feminised with the -ovskaya ending. JackofOz 04:25, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I am glad that someone slightly agree with my 'NPOV'. And as I know for instance Donald Ervin Knuth has on the net such long list about the Russian names of which he would like to get through, probably once and for all. That is why this is not just my kind of fashion as someones here think. And BTW I adore Tchaikovsky's music even if some rumours are there out he was somehow gay and with strange sexual orientation. Music, I guess does not know any boundaries. Thank you, too. -- XJamRastafire 18:44 Jul 30, 2002 (PDT)

Cuz it's just so bizarre for gay men to be in the music and ballet business. montréalais

Jeronimo moved this page to Pyotr Tchaikovsky, which I think is wrong, so I've moved it back - however his name gets spelled, it is very rare indeed for people to refer to him as "Peter Tchaikovsky"; is it either "Peter Ilitch Tchaikovsky" or simply "Tchaikovsky" (Google confirms that ommitting the middle name is relatively uncommon). --Camembert

I think we have to translate the name because a non-Russian speaker won't understand what the name means, but a Russian speaker does. Peter Seagullson is the ONLY correct title for this page. And sarcasm wins EVERY Internet argument. -Iopq 00:13, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I've almost always seen his name spelled "Peter Ilyich Tchaikovsky." I've seen one exception, in which a text spelled his last name "Tchaikowsky" (not with the extra 's' as in the article). I don't really care if the article goes under "Pyotr" or whatever seems to be the consensus as to the proper spelling, but rather than reference several strange transliterations afterward we probably should just mention the common spelling (e.g. Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky [russian spelling and birth/death dates here], also spelled Peter Ilyich Tchaikovsky,...) or something along those lines. Jeremiah 23:42, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I think if we are going to keep his name as he was born (i.e. not Peter) then the correct transliteration wold be Py(i)oter Ilyi(t)ch Tchaikovski. If I had to say what the page would be named, I would put it at Pyoter Ilyich Tchaikovski (regardless that Pyoter does look rediculous when spelled out (at least to myself))

With respect, that seems to be a make-it-up-as-you-go-along type of transliteration, based on your concept of how his name sounds. Pyotr is the standard transliteration of the Russian original. JackofOz 04:25, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Russian Alphabet

The Cyrillic letters show accents over the 'myagkii znak' in Ilyich, and over the -k- in Tchaikovsky. These are wrong. You can't accent consonants in Russian. They belong over the second -i- in Ilyich and the -o- in Tchaikovsky. JackofOz 05:51, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A Problem with French Transliteration

I have seen in a few music history texts where they say that the "Tch" in Tchaikovsky is a French transliteration and that it should be spelled instead "Chaikovsky".

Normally this would be the case (the name begins with the Cyrillic letter Ч/che, usually transliterated in English as "ch") but Tchaikovsky is the established English version, probably by way of French as you note, so we're more or less stuck with it. No harm in it, though; it doesn't actually make the name appear to be pronounced other than as it is.

(though none of this answers why the "literal" English transliteration given in the article is so bizarre: Pëtr Il'ič Čajkovskij? Was this copied over an interwiki link?) —Zero Gravitas 22:43, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

"Pëtr Il'ič Čajkovskij" is a literal (letter by letter) transliteration of the Russian Cyrillic, based largely on spelling in Slavic languages that use the Latin alphabet (especially with the comparison of Serbian and Croatian alphabets). Mademoiselle Fifi 23:20, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I've changed the "ë" to "jo". If it's meant to be an indication of how the Russian is pronounced, "ë" is very misleading. It looks like a German letter and many people would try to say "Pertr" or something like that.

The name section needs some work. There are various ways of spelling each of his 3 names, and they have been mixed and matched with gay abandon throughout the literature. Just giving two or three of the possible combinations suggests these are the only ones there are. But giving all of them would be a very long and absurd list. I'd prefer to show (a) the Russian spelling, (b) a useful transliteration, and (c) some of the common variant spellings for Pyotr, for Ilyich, and for Tchaikovsky, but without nominating any particular combination of these elements. JackofOz 23:35, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I see you've changed it back, Mllefifi. I question the value of the distinction you've made about 4 phonemes vs. 5. That is fine for a linguist, but it has little or no value for an ordinary reader. "ë" means one and only one thing to a person who knows no Russian, namely the German letter e with an umlaut. It does not in any way represent the actual sound of the Russian letter "ë". JackofOz 23:40, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Just to add a different perspective: the actual name is Greek, "πέτρα", which in English means "rock". But we don't go around translating Tchaikovsky's name as "Rocky" :) Nonetheless " Пьотр" is the Russian equivalent of the Greek "πέτρα", so surely by analogy, it makes most sense to "translate" the name using the English form of the Greek "πέτρα", namely "Peter"...?--feline1 10:19, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

There is one compelling reason why the French transliteration might be featured a bit more prominently in Wikipedia: the Library of Congress cataloging system! If you want to find scores of Tchaikovsky's symphonies and operas, you go to M1000C and M1500C, not T. LoC has chosen to use "Chaikovskii" as their standard spelling. I would guess (and this IS only a guess) this is because a lot of his music, like Rimsky-Korsakov's, was first published in the West by French publishing houses rather than German ones, and it was these French editions that were entered in the LoC catalog.TaigaBridge 21:30, 28 January 2007 (UTC) For that matter, I think it would be useful, at the top of the article, to identify Chaikovskii as French and Tschaikowski/schi as German - so that people can see how the different English spellings originate from translating the name twice instead of once. TaigaBridge 21:33, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

————————

Just noticing, the audio file doesn't work, or if it does, his name is pronounced "chaik" (like "psyche", just with a "ch")

No, that's not right. Many people assume it rhymes with "psych", but it's more like "chah ik", without any break between the 2 parts. JackofOz 04:25, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nutcracker

Also, let it be known that Tchaikovsky did not write a ballet called The Nutcracker Suite. He wrote a ballet called The Nutcracker and then extracted some pieces from it to make the concert work The Nutcracker Suite (ie a suite of peices taken from the ballet The Nutcracker). A lot of people get confused about this, so I'm clarifying it before anybody changes it back again. --Camembert

While we're at it, he didn't write a Symphony No. 6 in B minor called the "pathetic symphony" either. According to the Oxford Dictionary of Music, "patetichesky" in Russian means "passionate".Ortolan88

I disagree. I heard that he intended Pathetique to mean "pathos", not "passionate". Chyko

Pathos means emotional, as in passionate. -Iopq 00:14, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Just as long as we don't think of it as "pathetic." Actually, it is quite good. His "pahtetic" work would be the the 1812 Overture. --VonWoland 06:01, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

"quite good"?? - that must be the greatest understatement of all time (lol). Anyway, the 6th symphony is always known by its French subtitle "Pathétique", and is never translated into English. We might debate its English meaning here for mental exercise, but it will never end up in the article. JackofOz 10:03, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

About the "Suite"-thing. I've republished a transcription of the "Suite" for piano by Tchaikovsky himself and the title is "Suite tirée de la partition du ballet 'Casse-Noisette' de P. Tschaïkowsky". The publisher is German, so I guess it must have been the original French title. The link at Wiki's to the free download of the score was removed, though. You'll have to take my word for it. Rowy 09:57, 18 September 2006 (GMT+01:00)

[edit] Suicide

Is it really "generaly accepted that his death was by suicide"? Dutch Wikipedia for instance says the exact opposite: death due to cholera with rumours that this was intentional poisoning.

This has been the cause of a great deal of debate, and to date there is no definitive answer. One theory is that a secret court sentenced him to suicide or face being exposed as a homosexual, for his sexual involvement with the son of a member of the aristocracy. Another is it was suicide for other reasons. Another is that it was plain foolhardiness in drinking unboiled water during a cholera epidemic, to prove he was not susceptible to it. We may never know. JackofOz 05:51, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

According to Robert Greenburg (source cited in article), there is no longer a question of what happened. His lecture refers to evidence released by the Russian government. <>< tbc 05:32, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Poznansky tells a very different story. --Hugh7 23:06, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Didn't Poznansky write twelve years ago? Haiduc 02:45, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I put it down as most historians believing he did not commit suicide. Poznansky's book was publised in 1996, but it seems to me we need something more than a lecture to cite if we are going to claim as fact the Czarist government did it.
Gene Ward Smith 19:23, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Works for me. <>< tbc 07:47, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Piano

This may not be necessary, but just to clarify: an anon editor keeps changing the age at which he began studying piano from five to six. This is incorrect. He began lessons in 1845, at the age of five, and even more amazing, he wrote a song to his mother (according to a letter from his father) in September 1844, at the age of FOUR. The anon editor's last change did verify that the intent was vandalism all along. Antandrus 17:48, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Biography

Some links in the section might better be removed - see Wikipedia:Make only links relevant to the context? Schissel : bowl listen 21:41, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Greenberg

I made some edits based on Robert Greenberg's "Great Masters: Tchaikovsky -- His Life and Music." Those edits were removed without comment. I haven't tracked down who did it yet (comments would make that easier), but I am curious to know why my edits were blown away. Is Greenberg an unreliable source? <>< tbc 14:05, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

It evidently was here [1]. (Tempted to leave a rant here about people who make big changes and mark them as a "minor edit.") I remember your addition; I edited it myself to give both sides of the story, and indicate the source (Orlova) as well as that it is controversial, with a lot of musicologists vigorously opposing it (the writeup in the recent New Grove is pretty good). Go ahead and put back the details if you want. IMO Greenberg is a good and reliable source; I've gone to numerous lectures of his in SF in the last few years; though he tends to emphasize one side of contentious issues he's very thorough in his research. Antandrus (talk) 15:54, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

why isnt there a robert greenberg bioin wikipedia?

Because no one has written one yet. I could but it might include original research, so I probably won't ... Antandrus (talk) 03:24, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] His favourite painting

Please see a question I've posted at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities regarding the identity of the author of Tchaikovsky's favourite painting Melancholy. Please reply only there, not here. JackofOz 03:09, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Family connection with Rimsky-Korsakov

Mllefifi removed the following, on the basis that Rimsky was married only once, and not to a Davidova:

He had some interesting family connections to Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov. Rimsky married in turn two of Tchaikovsky's nieces, the sisters Vera and Natalia Davydova. Tchaikovsky's brother Nikolai adopted his great-nephew Georges-Léon Blumenfeld, who was also Rimsky-Korsakov's nephew by marriage (his mother was Vera's and Natalia's sister Tatyana).

I obtained that information from John Warrack's book "Tchaikovsky" (Hamish Hamilton, London, 1973; ISBN 024102403). However, on closer inspection, I discover that although the text has many references to R-K, it says nothing about him being related by marriage to Tchikovsky. The info is contained in the Davidov family tree shown inside the back cover. It seems that Vera and Natalia Davidov did both marry a Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov, but not the Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov. The composer R-K did indeed marry only once, to a woman named Purgold. I must take Mr Warrack to task for allowing this false impression to be so easily gained by not disambiguating the Rimskie-Korsakovy. Ah well, there goes another bit of "history". Thanks. JackofOz 20:10, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Broken links

Is there a reason for there being links to files which don't exist in this article? I've removed the link to a file which was intentionally deleted, but there doesn't seen to be any reason for having the other ones here. Unless anyone objects, I'll come back and delete the other broken links later. Caillan 03:19, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

It's been nearly 24 hours now. They've been removed. Caillan 01:02, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Russian vs. Ukrainian

What is the evidence that he was "strictly speaking Ukraininan"? I've only ever heard of him being Russian. He did not to my knowledge speak the Ukrainian language nor identify in any way with the Ukrainian people or their culture or history. JackofOz 07:02, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Try looking at the wikipedia list of 'Ukrainian composers' sometime. P.

Thanks for the smart reply, Pfistermeister, but it seems you're not as smart as you like to make out. That entry of itself proves nothing. It seems he was erroneously added to the list of Ukrainian Composers by anonymous editor 72.144.92.64 on 30 October, without an edit summary. I wasn't aware of the edit, till now, thanks to you. I'm removing him from the list and removing references to his Ukrainian-ness from the article. If somebody can produce documentary evidence to prove otherwise, we can revisit it then. Editors (whether anonymous or identified) who don't provide edit summaries cause more trouble than they're worth. JackofOz 11:14, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Antidote, you'll notice I reverted your edit. Firstly, Ukraine was simply a part of Russia in T's day, not a separate nation as it is now. So even if he had strong Ukrainian links (which I hotly dispute), he would still have been considered Russian. But I've never read anything to suggest that T had any knowledge of the Ukrainian language, culture or people. Some of his forbears may have come from that part of Russia - although his father certainly didn't and his mother was of French extraction - but he was born in Russia, as a Russian, speaking Russian, identifying as Russian in all respects. That makes him Russian and nothing but Russian, in my book. It may be OK to state that he had some Ukrainian ancestors, and French (d'Assier), but to assert that he was, even in part, a Ukrainian composer is just wrong. I'll stand corrected if you can produce some documentary evidence for your claim. JackofOz

Hi Jack. His father was a Ukrainian mining engineer which I can show you here [2]. Note that there are other sources, I just chose the one I could find the fastest. Also it says here [3] that Tchaikovsky had Ukrainian heritage. His mother was of French origin but only partly. [4] Indeed, Russia was part of Ukraine but since Ukrainians are considered a separate nationality here (though there might be little difference in language and culture) it's probably appropriate to add the fact that he was Ukrainian too. Also, since we're in the debate of who's who in nationality terms. I'd like for you to take a look at the Nicholas Copernicus article, and like to hear your view on the nationality debate that is going on there. Also, I need help populating List of Ukrainians, so if you can help, please join me. Thanks. Antidote

Nothing I've read suggests his father was Ukrainian in the sense of identifying as a member of that community and speaking that language and honouring that culture and heritage. His ancestors may have come from that part of the country, but he himself was thoroughly Russianised. But whatever genealogical heritage he had through his father is irrelevant to Tchaikovsky's nationality. He was Russian through and through in all the ways that matter. His mother was half-French, so does that make Tchaikovsky a French composer, or even a partly French composer? No. Was Tchaikovsky's half-sister Zinaida a German just because her mother was of German origin? No. Is George W Bush an English politician just because some of his ancestors came from there? Of course not. Pyotr Tchaikovsky did not speak Ukrainian (which is not a dialect of Russian but a separate and distinct language, albeit related to Russian), and at no time ever identified himself publicly or privately as Ukrainian. Just because some Ukrainian websites now claim Tchaikovsky as their own does not make him their own. There are 23,000 Google hits for "Tchaikovsky Ukrainian composer", as compared with 307,000 for "Tchaikovsky Russian composer". See also [5] which supports my stance that "no one would argue seriously argue that Tchaikovsky is a Ukrainian composer". I'd be happy to say that Tchaikovsky was a Russian composer with mixed Russian, Ukrainian and French ancestry, but I would not accept that he was "a Russian-Ukrainian" composer. JackofOz 09:53, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm ok with just a mention that Tchaikovsky was ethnically Ukrainian, culturally Russian, and an enthusiast (as well as ancestrally) of the French. It doesn't have to be in the header either. But I don't see why we should take him off List of Ukrainians. Antidote 22:13, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

If you leave him there, you have to also put him on the same list for French people. He was no more Ukrainian than he was French, namely, not at all. His blood lines do not translate to his nationality. Aaron Copland or George Gershwin were not Russian composers just because they had Russian ancestors. JackofOz 01:12, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

This discussion has taken on a quite bizarre quality. Can someone kindly tell us whether or not the composer of the 'Little Russian' symphony was actually born in 'Little Russia' - that is, in the Ukraine? Thanks. MD

Tchaikovsky was born in Russia. Votkinsk, north-eastern Russia; in the Urals. His father was an inspector in a mine there, and right now we're not sure whether or not the father was originally from the Ukraine. Antandrus (talk) 02:40, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Russia is a nation-state; the Urals are a geographical feature, and the Ukraine, in Tch's time, was a region. So I'll ask again: can someone kindly tell us whether or not the composer of the 'Little Russian' symphony was actually born in the Ukraine? Thanks. MD

No. Votkinsk is in north-eastern Russia. It's on the railroad line NE of Kazan and at least 1600 km from the Ukraine. Antandrus (talk) 03:01, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Good. We're getting somewhere. Now, if Tch had been born in the Ukraine region, then there'd be a sense in which he was irreducibly 'Ukrainian', whatever his 'ethnicity', and however 'Russian' his legal status and cultural affiliations were. But since he was born *nowhere near* that region, then we can forget all this twaddle about what language he spoke; what his cultural commitments were; how 'Russianised' he was; or where his parents came from: in the world of sane people without irrational axes to grind, Tchaikovsky *simply wasn't Ukrainian*. Hope that helps. MD

Antandrus, you say "right now we're not sure whether or not the father was originally from the Ukraine". I'd prefer to say that we're quite sure he wasn't from the Ukraine. My reference ("Tchaikovsky", John Warrack) says: "The first historical Tchaikovsky of whom we hear is Fyodor Afanasyevich, a Cossack officer who left .. a widow and 2 children. One of these, Pyotr Fyodorovich, became a civil servant and rose to be Chief of Police successively in 2 towns in the Vyatka Province, some 600 miles east of Moscow. His wife Anastasia Stepanova [sic; should be Stepanovna] Posokhova, had been orphaned in the Pugachev rebellion. She bore her husband no fewer than 20 children before his death in 1818. The youngest, Ilya Petrovich, born in 1795, chose a career in the Department of Mines." Then there is mention of Ilya's first wife being of German origin, and his second wife (the composer's mother) being of French origin, but no mention of Ilya himself being of Ukrainian origin. Maybe Pyotr's great-grandfather Fyodor Afanasyevich, being a Cossak officer, was Ukrainian. And maybe his grandmother Anastasia had some Ukrainian connections if she had been orphaned in the Pugachev rebellion. But this is all supposition. In any event, Pyotr's father and grandfather were both Russian. This whole Ukrainian thing is a complete red herring, and we really have to get over it. Life is too short. Those Ukrainian websites that have claimed Tchaikovsky as "a Ukrainian composer" have done us all a great disservice. It is just not true. JackofOz 03:13, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

OK. I looked through all my sources (Grove, Slonimsky, Oxford, etc) and I can't find anything about his father being Ukrainian either. I remember reading it somewhere, but it may have been in this Wikipedia article. Funny how that goes. Antandrus (talk) 03:19, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Antidote, I really hope we're not going to have this tiresome debate all over again. If you or anybody wants to assert any connection with Ukrainian heritage, ancestry, descent or background for Tchaikovsky, please provide credible documentary evidence for it. JackofOz 08:21, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm fairly certain i showed a source that stated that Tchaikovsky had Ukrainian heritage (the #3 above somewhere) - however, his ancestors COULD have been of Russian ancestry from Ukraine. To be honest, I don't know for sure and you rightfully changed it to "Russian mother". Antidote 01:49, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I re-checked those sources before I posted the above. [2] refers to "Tchaikovsky's Ukrainian heritage" but gives no other information. I discount it as an unsubstantiated claim that has no foundation. [3] says his mother was half French, but the word "Ukrainian" does not appear there at all. I strongly suspect this whole urban myth arose because he wrote the "Little Russian" symphony, Little Russia being another name for Ukraine. The Ukrainians have taken him to their hearts - and fair enough - but they've gone too far in claiming him as "a Ukrainian composer". Mendelssohn wrote a Scottish and an Italian symphony, but that didn't make him either Scottish or Italian. I remain convinced Tchaikovsky had no significant connection with Ukraine, but am open to persuasion if evidence can be produced. JackofOz 02:08, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion of information about his love life

This is an aspect of Tchaikovsky's life that is of paramount significance in his music and his personal life, and that has been systematically suppressed during his life and since his death, thus your contention of irrelevance is simply incorrect. What I find troubling is that this is the second time this user has deleted information about an artist's homosexual love life from an article. Norman Douglas was the other, and in his case too his homosexuality was a major force in his life (it got him exiled) and his work. Any reason not to revert? Haiduc 12:25, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Go for it. To omit his homosexuality is to utterly misunderstand Tchaikovsky. JackofOz 13:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Before you 'go for it', please look at my correspondence with Haiduc on this and Norman Douglas, just so you can weigh up the arguments. I emphatically did not 'omit (Tchaikovsky's) homosexuality'. The reversion merits a serious discusssion, not just a knee-jerk reaction based on Haiduc's completely unjustified implied attack on my motivations --Smerus 14:20, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

PS but I agree with JackofOz that there are no Ukrainian connections--Smerus 14:31, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

An attack no, but an accusation yes. My response is at [6] Haiduc 14:38, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Exchange Haiduc/Smerus (posted at Haiduc's request, see below)

I could not help but notice that you have discarded the information of Tchaikovsky's lovers. Quite apart from the discussion of whether or not they belong there is the ingenious rationale you present for deleting such information from any article in the encyclopaedia where you might come across it, "These names irrelevant in WP unless signficant in their own right or had a particular impact on the subject's career: and distort balance of article."

In the present case we're dealing with an aspect of Tchaikovsky's life that is of paramount significance in his music and his personal life, and that has been systematically suppressed during his life and since his death, thus your contention of irrelevance is simply incorrect.

What I find troubling is that this is the second time you have deleted information about an artist's homosexual love life from an article. Norman Douglas was the other, and in his case too his homosexuality was a major force in his life (it got him exiled) and his work. So while the deletion of irrelevant information is certainly a worthy goal, your consistent application of your novel doctrine to purge critical information about artists' homosexuality from their articles is not. Haiduc 12:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Dear Haiduc,

I am sorry that you find this troubling. I did not delete, or dispute, references to Tchaikovsky's love life, only to the list of lovers. These are irrelevant to an encyclopaedic article on Tchaikovsky. The names of these lovers, to be absolutely specific, have absolutely no "paramount significance in his music", although of course his sexaulity as a whole does have some such significance. Indeed the article as a whole at present has precious little on what makes Tchaikovsky an encyclopaedic subject, viz, his music and his own musical development, which I hope to remedy in due course. That of course is not your fault.

I appreciate and in fact share your concern that subjects' sexuality should not be suppressed, especially where their sexuality and its consequences are a major feature of their biography. But that is not an excuse for overstating the case. Norman Douglas's long exile was his personal choice - although, indeed, for the offence for which he might have been prosecuted, a brief spell abroad was a typical action to undertake, he had no problems when he came back to London where he lived from 1944-1950. (Dates appproximate, I am in plaster and can't get to my reference books to look them up). Similarly it is just not the case that Tchaikovsky's homosexuality has been 'systematically suppressed' - it has certainly been common knowledge since I began as a teenager taking an interest in musical history 40 years ago.

I can assure you that I do not only pick on homosexuals for my deletions on grounds of irrelevance, and it just happens to be a complete (but delightful, given that these two are generally unappreciated or underrated) coincidence that Tchaikovsky and Douglas are interests shared by you and me. I am not seeking to cross your path or attack your interests, only to place those whom I value in a full and balanced context that will enlighten other readers. I do hope that this may serve to set your mind at rest.

with best regards, and thanks for your comments, --Smerus 13:54, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

First off, my apologies for jumping to conclusions. There is so much sabotage of this information in the Wikipedia that I have probably become hypersensitized to these things and over-react. That being said, assuming that our readers will want to have their reading dis-encumbered of information about the love lives of the personages featured here, specifically that they will not give a damn who T's lovers were and only come here to find out about his music, is a far leap into thin air. I think the discussion here reduces to your sense of propriety vs. mine, and absent some absolute arbiter I think that we should opt in favor of greater inclusivity. If what you seek is really to "place those whom I value in a full and balanced context that will enlighten other readers" then how do you arrive at "full" by deleting?! If you think it is not "balanced" then please by all means balance, but not by a process of procrustean editing, please. Haiduc 14:36, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Haiduc, I am not going to make a big thing of this. As I suggest, the article needs to be extended to say more about Tchaikovsky's musical development, and within this improved article I expect the sort of comments about which we are debating will fall into a more appropriate context. There is a real issue however in naming Tch's lovers. Many people in WP had lovers of either or both sexes - discussing the subjects' sexuality may be (but not always!) relevant to their careers, achievements and problems - listing the names of their lovers is not relevant in the same way unless they had a particular impact in the story. Oscar Wilde/ Alfred Douglas? Of course! Wilde/others? Yes that they existed, but mention by name is usually likely to be superfluous. Similarly in Tchaikovsky's story, there is nothing to my knowledge that indicates his passions for any of his male lovers by name can be identified in any particular pieces of his music, or any aspects of his musical development. His breakdown over his marriage seems to me however to be clearly relevant to his music, especially his last pieces. Keep thinking. --Smerus 15:06, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Neither do I wish to belabor this. I think we are close to going in circles here. Wilde had Ross. Tchaikovsky is of interest to history for more than his music, and he is of interest to different people for different reasons. At least we know now what the essence of our divergence is. Would you be so kind as to post this exchange atthe Tchaikovsky discussion page so that others may contribute? Haiduc 15:48, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tchaikovsky's death

I have tidied this up to cut reptetitions and make it more to the point. This has involved chopping the details (only) of the legend about his blackmail as there is no documentary evidence for them. --Smerus 11:14, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Mostly reads well, but the formulation will leave readers with a false impression of the alleged blackmail episode. It is significant that several reputable individuals with plausible access to such nowledge contributed to the theory, and important to mention the "honor court" aspect. Haiduc 11:44, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article

The article focuses too much of Tchaikovsky's homosexuality and says very little about his musical career. There should be more detail on his compositions and the context of them.

Rintrah 06:00, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I summed the information on his homosexuality and found that there was no more than a paragraph or two. Considering that it had some bearing on his life and music, I don't believe that it's too much to include in his biography.

If you would like to add to the music section, go ahead. I know that I lack the musical education to properly discuss his works, and I suspect that some other people do as well. If you would like information on individual works, you may note that most have their own pages. Ladlergo 17:15, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Polish?

Thank you for citing the claim that Tchaikovsky believed he was Polish. I will look the book up to verify. I'm also working on getting my hands on genealogical lineage made by his family.--tufkaa 20:30, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I believe the name Tchaikovsky originally comes from the Polish language, but to say that he was therefore Polish is to say that George Bush is English because he has an English surname, or that Pierre Trudeau was French because he had a French name. In any case, the name Tchaikovsky had become thoroughly incorporated into Russian, and by the time the composer was born, it would have been regarded as a normal Russian surname. JackofOz 03:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

If I remember my graduate courses in Russian well enough, the ending -ский (-skij) in Russian surnames was a borrowing from Polish -- to distinguish members of Russian nobility, assuming I'm not mistaken. Native Russian surnames typically end in "-in" (e.g., Borodin, from "boroda" = "beard") or "-ev/-ov" (e.g., Korsakov, Prokof'ev, etc. Russification of other cultures often involved application of these endings to the "foreign" names. "Tchaikovsky" thus is made of "чаек/чайка" (="seagull"), plus the native Russian surname ending "-ov", plus the Polish ending "-skij"). Of course, some Russian surnames lack these typical endings, as with Glinka's name; other Russian surnames end like patronymics (-evich, -ovich). Mademoiselle Fifi 17:24, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Brother was Modest, not Modeste

His given name was Модест = (in English transliteration) Modest. It sometimes appears as Modeste, presumably via French transliteration. I believe this is inappropriate in an English-language context, as it looks like it's pronounced as a 3-syllable word, when it's merely 2 syllables. We don't say "Modeste Mussorgsky", so why "Modeste Tchaikovsky"? JackofOz 01:30, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed tag

Can someone explain why we really need this tag? It seems to me that it's present merely to appease people who are denial about Tchaikovsky's homosexuality. If it's actually disputed by musical historians, I'd like to see some references. Ladlergo 14:53, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

As a musicologist specialising in Russian opera, I can assure you that it is not--at least, I have never heard anyone in my field seriously contest this. There are things that need cleaning up in this article (the first paragraph, for example, will set any post-Taruskinian musicologist's teeth on edge), but the controversy over this particular issue is plainly absurd. --Clareite 09:46, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Amen! Seconded!!--X4n6 08:57, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Removed tag and expanded discussion of his homosexuality. Haiduc 10:34, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, Tchaikovsky was quite the handsome Cossack. a good picture of him in the article. --70.59.155.91 03:40, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

It seems to me that the images of him (Image:Der junge Tschaikowski.jpg and Image:Tchaikovsky.jpg) are in reverse order that they should be…isn't the photographs of him in older age more associated with him than the drawing with black hair at age 34? — $PЯINGε rαgђ 20:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No Evidence of Homoexuality

There is virtually no evidence for his homosexuality. Please, offer a citation from Holden or Paznansky that will hold. Trancesurfer 00:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Please look at the thread above (Talk:Pyotr_Ilyich_Tchaikovsky#Sexuality) -- we've all covered this ground before. There's numerous references listed there. Tchaikovsky's homosexuality is better documented than that of any composer prior to the 20th century. The writeup in the New Grove online -- it's in section 3 of their article -- is pretty thorough. Antandrus (talk) 01:10, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

What I want to say, is that those authors in their 'proofs' that he was a homosexual, speculate. In reality, there is no proof. 'Little evidence of homosexuality' is the only phrase on the Russian Wikipedia page that includes the word 'homosexual'. Unfortunately I don't have an easy access to Russian books at this point. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Trancesurfer (talk • contribs) 10:18, 6 February 2007 (UTC).

The lack of reference to Tchaikovsky's homosexuality on the Russian Wikipedia page is more indicative to the Russian state of mind than Tchaikovsky's life. THD3 21:50, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

There isn't much reference for Russians as I understand it; if you are going to make the bold statements using his brother's claims, you better have those texts in the original. Since there isn't a homosexual interpreter (a man who is preoccupied with the composers sexuality, and ironically, so little with his music) for them to translate from Russian to English and further overanalyze the texts, they get a far better picture from those five thousand letters of the man himself, and what was actually important in his life and music. Hence, there's little support for his homosexuality. All in all, his orientation is irrelevant; had it been of much importance, he would have lived in the open like many of his time. But the statement, from nil of fact, of “its importance to his life and music” comes from someone (please excuse the expression) that knows shit about the man and music all together. Where is the citation for that ridiculous claim? Or does it too come from the Transsexual and Queer encyclopedia? Trancesurfer 06:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I wanted to make a note here that Trancesurfer has only made edits to this talk page and the main article page - it is likely that the account was created either as a sockpuppet or agenda-pusher. If that's not the case, my apologies - however, please keep WP:NPOV in mind, on all sides. —Keakealani·?·!·@ 07:42, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I accept your apologies. Trancesurfer 09:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Trancesurfer, it's one thing to say "show me documentary proof that Tchaikovsky was known to be homosexual". It's quite another to describe any such claim as "ridiculous". It might not satisfy your idea of what is suitable to place in a WP article, but it has been very widely, virtually universally, accepted in the musical world for over a century that this was the case. OK, given the taboo on talking - much less writing - about this subject in Russia at the time, it's theoretically possible that the world has got it wrong all these years, and that he was straight. But the evidence is there for those with eyes to see. It may be indirect, but it's still valid. No reputable biographer has ever doubted this. If Wikipedia made no reference to his homosexuality, we'd be a laughing stock. With great respect, you place yourself at risk of being the David Irving of the Tchaikovsky story. JackofOz 05:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I would like to know what do you mean by "proof" of homosexuality.

[edit] Ken Russell's film

I have added some balance to the comments on this. Perhaps we could be informed in what respect Russell's film is poorly researched. It seems to me fair and emotionally truthful - even quite resrained about T's (disputed, according to the above) homosexuality. Also for the musically literate it is notable for its famous coup de theatre in the first reel, showing the actor's hands playing the first concerto's keyboard correctly and having no cut where we would expect the usual one to the actor's body (I believe the Richard Chamberlain trained as a concert pianist). Straw Cat 02:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bibliography

The following is a list of books referenced from a previous debate regarding to Tchaikovsky's sexuality. The debate turned into a flame war and was removed, while this list contains great reference information:

Anthony Holden "Tchaikovsky: A Biography" (Random House, 1995)
"The Diaries of Tchaikovsky" Translated from the Russian by Wladimir Lakond (W.W. Norton, 1945)
David Brown "Tchaikovsky Remembered" (Amadeus, 1994)
John Gee & Elliott Selby "The Triumph of Tchaikovsky" (Vanguard, 1960)
Herbert Weinstock "Tchaikovsky" (Da Capo, 1943)
Alexander Poznansky "Tchaikovsky Through Other's Eyes" (Indiana U Press, 1999)
Wilson Strutte "Tchaikovsky: his life & times" (Paganiniana, 1981)
David Brown "Tchaikovsky: The Crisis Years" (W.W. Norton, 1983)
Gerald Abraham "Tchaikovsky: A Short Biography" London, 1945
Catherine Drinker & Barbara von Meck "Beloved Friend" New York, 1937
Edwin Evans "Tchaikovsky" London, 1906
Edward Garden "Tchaikovsky" London, 1935
Michel Hoffman "Tchaikovsky" London, 1962
Richard Pipes "Russia Under The Old Regime" London, 1974
Modest Tchaikovsky "The Life & Letters of Peter Illych Tchaikovsky" translated by Rosa Newmarch London, 1906
John Warrack, Tchaikovsky" London, 1973

Originally posted by X4n6 08:55, 3 July 2006 (UTC). Reposted by -asmadeus 15:55, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

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