User talk:Purifiedwater

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Hello, Purifiedwater, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Again, welcome! --Tone 14:40, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Lowercase Band Names / "sometimes typeset as"

Hi there,

I noticed you're going through the articles of bands whose names are officially rendered in all lowercase and changing the article title so that it's "correct" English. I don't doubt these are good faith edits, but I think you should slow down for a moment:

  • Musicians' names aren't just "trademarks" (as you keep citing WP:MOSTM) -- it's the name they've chosen to identify themselves by, and there's often a particular reason they've chosen to do that (maybe a personal reason, maybe it's symbolic). Admittedly, often it's just pretentious narcissism -- but unless they explicitly say that's the reason why, then we shouldn't assume it's just a meaningless flourish if they've made it a point to render their names like that.
  • Your solution of saying that the lowercase name is "usually/sometimes typeset as" is misleading -- band names like the pillows aren't just "usually/sometimes typeset as"; it's the most common form of the name and the name the band officially identifies itself as. "Usually/Sometimes typeset as" gives the impression that a handful of fans occasionally choose to write it like that out of laziness (for example). And the "to fit the logo" bit for the pillows is completely misleading: people write "the pillows" to match their official name, not the logo; the logo merely reflects the official name.
  • And as Matt Yeager noted on the matchbox twenty talk page, why are you ignoring the "three main principles" regarding proper nouns on WP:NCON? Using the lowercase form is how the subject chooses to identify itself, and I don't really see why WP:NCON should be overruled by WP:MOSTM (for instance). Purifiedwater 19:04, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
(Expanded on a point and corrected a mistake. I'm sleepy, sorry. :-)) I do get the sense, though, that where you and the editors who are in favor of keeping the lowercase differ is that you don't believe that different capitalization constitutes a different spelling. In all honesty, I don't think any of the guidelines cited thus far were specifically written with cases like matchbox twenty or the pillows in mind, so there is debate to be had here. What do you intend to do about k.d. lang, actually? That might be a good litmus for this... Purifiedwater 19:23, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I presently have no intentions to do anything about that particular article, since I'd like to focus on actual content as opposed to style issues for a while (i.e. that new discography page for The Pillows). But I'll certainly answer the points you have raised:
  • Dragons flight already addressed the "are band names trademarks?" issue quite well, the only thing I'd like to add is, that while few bands embody the "band name = brand name" idea as strongly as Kiss, the basic ramifications remain the same (action figures and comic book tie-ins or not). Trying to determine some sort of threshold would only introduce glaring NPOV issues.
  • You can certainly imagine that after a band has reached a certain critical mass in terms of popularity (which it more or less has to, in order to be notable enough for Wikipedia in the first place), it is bound to attract a high amount of media coverage outside of official or fan-driven circles. Enter all the MTVs, Amazons, NY Times' who drop stylized typography just like Wikipedia does by and large (not just through WP:MOS-TM). Hence non-absolute phrasings along the lines of "sometimes" or "usually". They also avoid putting an overly strong emphasis on the official typeset, in order to not pertain to brand management after all.
  • As I already wrote in my reply for Matt Yeager, I do not believe WP:NCON was written with formatting issues in mind. WP:MOS-TM evidently was, so from the perspective of someone who considers that guideline applicable to band names, The Pillows and Matchbox Twenty were pretty clear-cut cases.
Anyway, I need some sleep now as well, so have a good night then. - Cyrus XIII 02:56, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

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