Talk:Punch and Judy

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[edit] Modern Punch Toned Down?

Having grown up in Germany I was only ever exposed to the German Kasperl but the shows I've seen lack any wife beating and child murdering. It might be intresting to note that the modern Punch has (atleast in Germany) been toned down quite a bit.

I'm just not sure how or where to add it.


I'm not convinced by this "toned down kicker sentence". More than "toned down", it seems to be precisely opposite in meaning to the sentence it is replacing. —Paul A 07:03, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)


The original version of this sentence is one of the great treasures of Wikipedia, and in my opinion should have a preservation order on it. It has been on BDAODN for a very long time, where the original poster said he couldn't think of a better way of putting it. I can't either. DJ Clayworth 17:36, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Agreed -- the current version just seems to lack the punch of the original. (ducks vegetables) Reverted. --Aponar Kestrel 17:35, 2004 Jul 26 (UTC)
Absolutely. For the sake of not being sure that you can "perform appalling acts..." I'm making it "featuring as it does a ... psychopath who visits appalling acts of violence...", but I can't really think of anything better than the general sentence as it stands. It's hilarious; so is Punch and Judy. It's non-PC; so is Punch and Judy. The comment is a WikiClassic™ and must be kept. Wooster 17:51, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)
... I see no problem with to perform an act, whether of a play or otherwise, but to visit an act sounds wrong to me. Changing to to commit an act, which is hopefully dialect-neutral. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 19:50, 2004 Aug 18 (UTC)
Ta. Visit sounded (to my ear, but my language can be a bit old-fashioned) better than perform, but I knew visit wasn't quite right either. I thought changing it would probably provoke someone into getting the word I meant.  : ) Wooster 17:32, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC) Postscriptum: Just checked some online dictionaries, and I reckon that to perform an act doesn't quite ring true for British usage. You could perform an action in the UK, and visiting sth. upon s.o. is definitely considered older usage. Commit sounds far better (just try running perform a crime through your head!)--once again, thanks.
A WikiClassic™ indeed :)

classic or not, i must ask if it truly qualifies as a neutral point of view. it seems very one sided against poor mr punch, really.

[edit] Strongly vote to keep restored line!

Featuring, as it does, a deformed, child-murdering, wife-beating psychopath who commits appalling acts of violence and cruelty upon all those around him and escapes scot-free, it is greatly enjoyed by small children. quercus robur 23:36, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Strongly seconded. PeteVerdon 02:51, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
And thirded. JHCC 03:28, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
4thed. Wooster 11:25, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Fifthed. One of the best lines on Wikipedia. Slight revisions at most (i.e. I don't think you can "commit cruelty upon" someone). Silence 21:52, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a prose repository, If Dickens himself were writing for wikipedia his posts should still be deleted for if they violate NPOV Makenji-san 23:37, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Shame however that you have unilaterally chosen to delete the piece of text in question despite 5 votes otherwise quercus robur 01:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
You are correct, I overstepped my bounds, I have reinstated the line, although I am highly tempted to put a NPOV tag on the page. Makenji-san 23:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
What's POV about it? The tone may not be neutral, but the facts in the sentence are all clearly established. J•A•K 00:30, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
It's not POVed so much as it's original research. If we wanted to adhere to Wikipedia's standards exactly, a source would need to be cited showing (or arguing) that (1) "it is greatly enjoyed by small children", (2) Punch is a "deformed, child-murdering, wife-beating psychopath who commits appalling act of violence and cruelty upon all those around him and escapes scot-free", and (3) there is a causal relationship between 2 and 1. Ideally, one of us should try to get that line published somewhere, so we can simply cite the line from outside of Wikipedia and be a-ok—but that's probably not a feasible option.
However, I'd say that there is a very strong case for letting the rules slide slightly just this once, on the basis of Wikipedia:Ignore all rules. Sometimes Wikipedia is actually benefited by not removing an unusual, but delightful, bit of text; having interesting and creative writing is less important than being properly encyclopedic, but when the interesting and creative writing isn't dramatically unencyclopedic, one might as well keep it and get the best of both worlds. Plus it will benefit plenty of people (by brightening up their day a bit), and won't hurt anyone (I expect we'll get much more objection from rules-lawyering WP editors than from people who are genuinely offended on Mr. Punch's behalf :)), and that's all that really matters in the end. The true purpose of "WP:NOR" and "WP:NPOV" isn't to cripple us from ever putting interesting and diverse text in our articles, but to prevent bias and avoid edit wars over which POV to use. That doesn't apply here, so a little leniency is best, in my view. Let the line stay. -Silence 00:52, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Hear! Hear! quercus robur 11:24, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
I vote keep. Klosterdev 04:00, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Strongly Vote Against Line

It's just stupid, its not clever, it's lame.

It also doesn't even make sense. The cruelty of the puppet isn't why children enjoy it. That's a stupid assumption.

All this line does is make wikipedia look like it's written by 12 year olds.--Capsela 03:35, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

The line should stay. It is funny and it is true. I've observed many Punch and Judy shows and it does feature such horrors as outlined and also frequently amuses little kids. But do the horrors amuse? Kind of hard to see what else there is in the show really. When I was a kid, I always found it funny because of them. It's been long historically established that comedy and tragedy are seperated by a very fine line. As Steve Coogan said, "the best comedy is when you don't know whether to laugh or cry". Philip --129.11.76.215 07:31, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I suggest an alternative. Put an "although" in front of the line. Geez, let's get a grip here people. Come back to reality from cyberspaceland. --Capsela 17:19, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

That was tried, once. It resulted in the sentence being "precisely opposite in meaning" (see above discussion) and was generally disagreed with. Small children do in fact enjoy Punch and Judy shows because of the cruelty and violence, not despite it. I'm actually astonished you could think that the latter is the case instead of the former. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 18:13, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
The line is a violation of NPOV. How the fuck do you know what goes on in the minds of children? Are you a psychic? Do children enjoy puppet shows without violence? Do they laugh at shows without violence? You don't know shit. And wikipedia is full of morons like yourself. This whole encyclopedia is polluted by garbage points of view, propagated by loser nerds who have nothing better to do than try to be clever online.--Capsela 15:59, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Your comments are in violation of WP:CIV & WP:NPA. Besides, I think you are looking at this out of scope. We are talking about puppet murder here. I for one would like to see more puppet murder, I don't feel that our kids get enough as it is. Kids like violence, I've personally observed children laughing at slap-stick antics on classic and modern cartoons where characters are hurt.Cfpresley 19:31, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mr Punch?

That's news to me. So they're one of those celebrity couples where she's remained Miss Judy instead of Mrs Punch?

Does either puppet have a first name, as far as anybody knows? -- Smjg 11:03, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Judy is normally a first name, so she's Mrs Judy Punch. We never know Mr Punch's first name.
In that case, for consistency it should be called Punch and Punch. Does anybody call it this in practice? -- Smjg 13:50, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Of course not. That would be stupid. PeteVerdon 11:25, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


When is Punch ever called "Mr. Punch"? It's Punch and Judy, after all. As far as I know, Punch is his first name (a belief backed by his supposed origin in Pulcinella).
I think Punch is a first name -- and that we have no idea what Mr. would be. The Mr. should be eliminated......... I will do that

[edit] no mention of the golliwog?

He usually narrates the whole show(at least he does in the show on the front in Llandudno)

A 'Golliwog' as such has never been part of the mainstream show - although individual performers have introduced all sorts of puppets into their own shows. The black character in Punch and Judy has never really found a valid role once 'Minstrel shows' were banished from respectability. There's no real reason in why any of the characters (the Doctor or the Policeman for example) can't be played by a black puppet. Glyn Edwards 17:13, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed NPOV comment

Removed a line about "Punch and Judy politics"; I couldn't find a way to make it NPOV. Mostly because, as far as I can tell from its Google hits, it's a fairly vacuous insult and therefore an example of itself.  –Aponar Kestrel (talk) 12:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pulcinella

"The figure of Punch derives ultimately from the stock character of Pulcinella."

This is only historical speculation, and has never been confirmed (in fact, it is a theory based entirely on the fact that Pulcinella was later called Punchinello). 24.17.154.203 06:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Professor DeWitt and Sarasota Jungle Gardens

Although there seems to be considerable consensus about including information in this article about a Punch and Judy show by "Professor DeWitt", a member of the college of professors, whose performance has become an annual tradition at Sarasota Jungle Gardens, for more than a decade (at this classically old-style Florida vacation destination in the USA)—one editor keeps taking the various insertions out. It might be helpful to explore this proprietary behavior by one editor who presumes a commanding and exclusive role over others. Wikipedia is based upon consensual co-operation among editors. Repeatedly removing information for which others seem to have established a consensus to keep, seems rather _________________ (fill in the blank—that is the way to do it). The obvious difference in opinions deserves an explanation for objection and a willingness to explore a rational common ground that is acceptable to all for inclusion—rather than initiating a heavy handed edit war. 13 June 2006

correction: Professor DeWitt has been invited to perform every year at Sarasota Jungle Gardens for over sixteen years. He also has performed at Broadstairs, Covent Gardens, Margate, and other traditional locations -- that's the way to do it, please. ------ June 16,2006

Don't know about "considerable consensus" on this - but this entry seems just a commercial plug for someone's gig and the related venue. This article is about Punch and Judy and isn't a listings opportunity for performers. It is also the case that Prof DeWitt is not a member of the Punch and Judy College of Professors although he may be a member of one of the other organisations. Colin Phelun 21:49, 16 June 2006 (UTC) June 16 2006.

How does one check to see who is a member of the college... ? June 16, 2006
The College enquiry line is enquiries@punchandjudy.org and they can resolve any issues concerning membership of their association. Colin Phelun June 17, 2006
As a Councillor of The College I can confirm that Prof. DeWitt is not one of our members. We did issue a media statement in support of his stance when there was a complaint about his show reported in the UK Press last Summer but we made it clear that he wasn't a member and we hadn't seen his performance. This can be seen on the media page at www.punchandjudy.org. Membership of our organisation is based on the policies of the Inner Magic Circle and criteria for membership are posted on our website (follow directions on the Site Map). We correct false claims as to membership wherever we find them. I also support the view that this article is about Punch and Judy and not a place for individual Profs to advertise. Glyn Edwards 10:40, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree with your stand to support the inclusion of another character in the show by Professor Brad DeWitt -- if Hitler can be lampooned, so can the contemporary parallels. I do not understand, however, If the article is about punch and judy, Why would it be a problem to mention the existence of a punch and judy show in USA for over sixteen years at a traditional tourist location -- similar to ones in UK? Isn't this an indication of its universal appeal? Excluding the individual professor is easy to understand if none are ever mentioned, that is more appropriate on the site for the venue. BTW Seems to me that there is a strong POV bias to Britain in the article, yet the origin is Italy, and the shows occur around the world, wouldn't it be appropriate to demonstrate the popularity? Perhaps that is the rub. ---- June 18, 2006
And then again perhaps the rub is that the anonymous author pushing for inclusion is indeed Prof. DeWitt wearing the cloak of invisibility? Seems pretty likely. At the moment there are no plugs on the page for individual Profs and that's a pretty level playing field. It's also consistent with Wikipedia policy on advertising and vanity issues. I'm sure Brits would enjoy seeing mention of the Punch show in other countries - but not as a thinly disguised ploy by performers plugging their act (or making false claims about their credentials) Colin Phelun 16:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Interesting point. I expect a section on the Global Tradition would be a good idea. I know of enthusiasts and performers in Australia, Canada and the USA as well as Punch-nuts in Japan, Iran, Hog Kong and India. It would need to be global NPOV and not an opportunity for self-publicity though. Glyn Edwards 20:52, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
"Colin Phelun" is too suspicious -- and -- incorrect. The first entry for 18 June is mine -- where it ends with the POV bias as a rub. I thought the philosophy of Wikipedia also included taking editors as well intended, you are making a rather plain expression of distrust. (I find that people who do that are often projecting what their own behavior might be...) I took your word for it that you are in a position to claim that this professor is not in the college. I looked up the press release for details of the complaint and response in order to learn more about the information provided by "Glyn Edwards". I clearly accepted the opinions that there ought not to be any identification of professors in the article, only then asking about the inclusion of more information about venues in locations outside of Britain and frustration about the bias in the article. I see no effort to insert any of the struck information back into the article, and attempts have been made at discussion. If your intention is to inform, it ought to be cordial rather than inhospitable—otherwise you seem to imply that being a bully is appropriate for an editor involved in creating an article built in consensus. I believe that if you have a great deal of information on this topic you should take a leadership role instead of discouraging participation. Editors with cryptic names are just as anonymous as those without—how can that be an issue? Thanks for the willing consideration by "Glyn Edwards" I look forward to that section and perhaps a listing of venues where enthusiasts can find a Punch and Judy show wherever they might travel or live -- and I know of a good entry for Christmas time in Florida, too. ---- 18 June 2006