Talk:Pugachev's Cobra

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No actual tactical importance?

Well, I'm only a flight sim affictionado, so I know nothing about nothing, I'm sure, but performing a hook correctly seems, at least in flight-sim land - to succeed in putting your nose on the target, after which you can shoot at him.

I'm obviously not an expert, but I do believe that shooting and hitting had some trifeling tactical significance. :-) Kim Bruning 21:05, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I think the reference to little tactical use is refering to the Cobra and not the Hook. The Hook is tactically very useful and can be used by many aircraft to fly in one direction but shoot in another. LWF 03:24, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Changed "asstatic" to "aesthetic", as it was probably supposed to be. :) Stealth 16:58, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

"made more neutral" for some definition of neutral. :-P Take with a grain of salt. :-) Made Hook a redlink too, I wonder if there's much written on that subject? Kim Bruning 22:04, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Why did you change "horizontal plane" to "plane of an opponent"? It's much easier to understand to talk about horizontal and vertical plane imho, especially to a reader not familiar with the subject. Also it would be nice to elaborate on what makes the hook more useful. - Dammit 17:47, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Because horizontal and vertical is basically silly. If an enemy is in the plane 45 degrees to your aircraft, you roll to align your aircraft, and then pull the same maneuver. If it's at 32 degrees, or 15, same story. If the plane you're turning on just happens to coincide exactly with the vertical plane, congratulations, you've just performed a cobra maneuver that's actually effective in combat. <innocent look> Though granted, that would ony be by happenstance. Kim Bruning 12:14, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Ah ok, got it.. I was thinking it was meant more along the lines of retaining speed, but what you said makes sense too. - Dammit 13:56, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't quite comprehend what it is you're trying to illustrate. Couldyou differentiate between "plane" as it is in geometry and "plane" as a reference to another aircraft? Thanks. -- Oceanhahn 02:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Geometric planes. --Henrickson 09:18, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi I hope I'm posting this sort of thing correctly. This article piqued my interest; I love flight simulators and recently watched the movie "Top Gun" again. Though I understand that film is a Hollywood blockbuster and is not the best representation of actual combat, ACM, or flight in general, it seems to me that "Maverick" attempts something similar to a Cobra. He attempts to bring planes in close behind him, (first Jester early in the movie and then later a MiG-28) and then hits the brakes and tilts the plane upward. After a split second, he re-applies thrust and tilts the plane downward again. Again, I realize that "Top Gun" is not a fantastic source, but could his maneuver be described as a Cobra? I'm just a college student who's interested. Swatkid2 16:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that was the Cobra. Jigen III 10:12, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Propaganda?

Compare german wikipedia (de:Kobramanöver):

"soll es im Luftnahkampf dazu dienen, mittels plötzlicher Reduzierung der Fluggeschwindigkeit den verfolgenden Gegner zum Überholen zu zwingen um so selbst in eine günstige Schussposition zu gelangen"

(english:) "in dogfight, the manoever should force the persecuting enemy to overtake through sudden reduction of one's own airspeed and bring oneself into a good position to shoot."

Sounds reasonable. Here's another tidbit from aicn (about a movie done with usaf support):

(about the new F22) "It's a stealth jet and, most importantly, it can stop suddenly and hover (think of it rising its nose at a 60 degree angle and just stopping) which would allow the jet to take out enemy fighters as they scream past, unable to stop or turn in time. It's supposed to be a pilot's dream of a machine."

Now the english WP says

"Many Western experts on ACM believe this maneuver has absolutely no value in actual air combat."

No mention of any advantage. Sounds very illogical. Furthermore, when one counts it that until the F22 comes out, no westerner aircraft was able to perform the manoever, this line suddenly sounds like western propaganda ("oh, it's not any good anyway"). Anybody with more details about this? Thanks! Peter S. 02:20, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that anybody will agree that in a dogfight using cannons the Cobra has combat value, however as can be read in the article about dogfights, the general trend is that air combat nowadays is fought out with missiles (although that doctrine is criticized too). On top of that, the exit speed of the Cobra is very low, limiting the chances of actually doing something right after the enemy aircraft passes.

In a war like both Gulf Wars and Yugoslavia the sides were so unequal that the Cobra would be of no use, the few fights that did occur were with AWACS support, with long range missiles on one side and generally with few aircraft. However should anything like World War II ever happen again, with huge amounts of fighters on both sides, the Cobra might prove useful after all. The more airplanes are involved, the more likely close-range aerial combat is to occur, which is where the Cobra can prove its use. - Dammit 12:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, very insightful. Peter S. 13:50, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Come on guys! we all love the corba but it has little importance in dog fight.

Reason 1: when you are defensive, your are trying to shake off the enemy behind you. Cobra can't achieve this unless your enemy is very close to you, in fact, in his guns sight. How often does it happen?

Reason 2: Your enemy can do the excat same thing, then you can just wait to be shot down.

Readon 3: We all know that corba makes your plane's attitude and airspeed very vunerable(stalled flight)and modern ACM flys in fomation, corba makes your plane an easy target for your enemy's wingman.

However, it is a spectacular airshow maneuver that shows off the plane's maneverability.

p.s. planes in airshows are not loaded. Low wing loading makes the plane a lot more manueverable.

Question to Peter S.: I think a lot of western aircraft can do cobra. Didn't the F-14 do that in "Top Gun"?

En51cm 23:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)J.Mak 11/9/2006

You have to realize that Top Gun is not an accurate representation. The tactics used are awful, and the planes are not represented accurately. On another note, the F-22 has recently been shown to be capable of doing the cobra.LWF 23:28, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

"Today, the German Luftwaffe performs the maneuver with cold-war era MiG-29's"#

The German Luftwaffe sold all their Fulcrums to poland 2 years ago.

As J.Mak said, the Cobra as such is quite useless in dog fight. Similar maneuvers, like tail slide and Harrier's VIFF are similarly of little use. And using flaps and/or air brakes to reduce your airspeed to make pursuing plane overshoot may work in books and movies, but seldom in real life.

Why? Well, the first rule in aerial combat is to maintain your energy. Either as speed, or altitude, or preferably both. Maneuvers which bleed off your speed quickly - like Cobra or VIFF - are big no-no. They MAY work in that the other plane pursuing you does indeed overshoot - but you are left with too little energy to give chase, and you are sitting duck to anyone else looking for target. Jets are not dragsters - their acceleration is quite slow and it takes time to build up your airspeed again, unless you sacrifice altitude.

So why these maneuvers are done? Well, even though the maneuver itself has little actual use, it does indicate about aircraft's agility, controllability in high AoA and engine reliability, response and power. A plane which can execute Cobra is bad news in a dog fight, even if the maneuver itself makes little sense tactically.

Is Su-27 only fighter capable of executing Cobra? No. I should think that pretty much every fighter flown since 1975 can and has executed Cobra-like maneuvers. This includes F-15, F-16, F-18, Mirage 2000, Gripen etc. As said, there's a video of F-22 doing a Cobra. Such extreme maneuvers are part of the test flight programme. Reason why the Russians are only ones so far who have performed it in air shows is simply safety - Cobra is quite demanding for the engines and risk for turbine stall is non-trivial. Western fighters have performed the maneuvers in high altitudes to make sure there's ample time to relit the engine or make a safe ejection if someone goes wrong. Russians seem unconcerned about this possibility - either they have better inlets and engines for high-AoA maneuvers, or they are simply crazier, pick one. --Mikoyan21 22:06, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually the F-22 and F/A-18E/F Super Hornets have been doing Cobra's quite a bit at airshows recently. --Evil.Merlin 14:52, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hornet Cobra

The F/A-18 Hornet and Super Hornet can also perform the Cobra, here is video of it, I'm adding them to the list.

Hornet Cobra Video

http://www.139f.com/portal/show/1306635.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.197.203.139 (talk) 22:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Actual Importance

Although it is true that when doing the Cobra maneuver the high energy bleed rate would put the pilot in a very vulnerable position, it is not the maneuver itself that matters. The point-and-shoot maneuverability and "supermanouverability", if properly utilized in air combat, can yield very high tactical value. The key to success in combat with all-aspect missiles is to shoot first. Supermaneuverability allows a pilot to gain a shot opportunity earlier than with conventional maneuverability. Whet the Cobra maneuver clearly demonstrates is enhanced controllability in the pitch axis. 145.99.155.65 21:17, 2 April 2007 (UTC)