Talk:Puerto Rico

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[edit] Racial Lies in PR

Anyone on the east coast of the US knows that most PR's are mixed mulattoes who have mixed with each other. Every now and then you will find a more black looking one or in very rare instances, a white looking one. As is the case with most of Latin America, being white is what they would love to be known as even if their appearances are very far from it.

Many PR's refuse to accept their 'blackness' and instead cling to a false ideal of whiteness and when all else fails - the long killed off PR natives. When you watch your local news, they say: "the suspect was either black or hispanic." Now we know that Mexicans and blacks are not often mistaken for one another, but PR's and Caribbean hispanics often are - because they ARE the same people! I have seen and experienced many Mexicans who ask African-Americnas if they speak Spanish. They were thinking that they were PR's.

PR's, like Dominicans and others are ashamed of their African blood. This is why the darker will always try to mix with the whitest one that they can find. Also if they can find a white person, that's even better for them! They are trying to (in their minds) breed out the black. It can't be done. The more shocking part is, the culture of PR is almost 100% African! This includes the so-called Spanish culture which is based on an African one. Yes, check it out my friend...

Of course this does not apply to all, but it does apply to most. As the article indicated, most PR's choose white. Listen to what they say and you will see that they always make a distinction between 'blacks' and themselves, but they can never say what they are, except for the made up term - "latino." That means nothing. They put ANY label on themselves but black. Wikipedia needs to get to the truth. In some countries and cultures, they don't want to tell the truth even if anyone with eyes can see it. In other countries, more powerful countries tell them what they are even if they do not agree, like in the so-called arab countries. The article needs cleaning or more refinement. It should point out that PR's do not look white, but they look almost enirely like African-Americans(light-skinned type in general) despite what 'official' numbers say.--71.235.81.39 04:10, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you come to PR and watch for yourself,the great majority of us puertoricans are white.--BoricuaPR 22:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

There certainly is a lot racial denial in Latin America. I agree with you that 80% of Puerto Ricans are not white. But I've heard that the Puerto Ricans who come to the US mainland are mostly the darker-skinned ones, which means that NY PRs are not actually representative of the island's population. So even if not 80%, it's still likely that a majority of Puerto Ricans are predominantly white. If you have genetic studies that prove otherwise, then post them. But until then, these are facts: 80% of PRs say they're white, and genetic evidence say most are mestizo. So you see, there's no reason for Wikipedia to go with your claim that they're black. SamEV 04:01, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

What I wrote is no claim, it is fact! There are very few PR's who be considered white. I am not talking about any white person who went to live in PR either. I know it is a fantasy of yours, but it is just that. You would not dare say that PR's are white to a group of skinheads or KKK members! If the 'darker ones' as you put it, are the ones moving to NY, then how do they afford to if in general, they are not the wealthiest? When I look at immigrants from other countries, it is the whitest looking ones (Lebanese, Argentines, Portuguese, etc.) who move here, not the darker ones. The whiter ones usually have money and want to live the life that is no possible in their lands. I will accept your mostly white claim ONLY if I see a KKK or skinhead group leader agreeing that you are white. White where you are from does not qualify in the US. If it did, then just about everyone would be white - or even black!--71.235.81.39 07:32, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

How absurd. Who died and made white supremacists the authority on race? You have pretty low standards. It's also very presumptuous of you to think you know what I'd dare or not dare say and to whom. But also, what makes you think I'd lower myself to talking to them?
White where you are from does not qualify in the US. Not with some, such as you. But it qualifies with the government and tens and tens of millions of people. That's good enough. Your personal approval is neither required nor requested. I think you'd be better off posting at Stormfront. I'm sure they'll welcome you with open arms there ... Most important of all, you're not what Wikipedia considers a reliable source and neither is Stormfront.
P.S. I'm Asian, Black, Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander, Native American, Some other race, Two or more races, and White.
Get the point? SamEV 23:23, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
  • My 2 cents: THe problem of PRs race choices has in the census has been talked about a lot. There are even some studies going around. THe fact is that most people choose white when they are actually mestizos or mulatos. A LOT more that 15-20% or PR is of black descent. The census is no longer very reliable and this has been mentioned by authorities. Charleenmerced Talk 14:55, 25 March 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced


Guys, stick to the discussion of improving the article. If all reliable sources point to the fact that 80% of Puerto Ricans say they are white, then that information is included in the article. If you believe that this is wrong, FIND SOURCES, and include the argument in the article. If you think this issue should be presented in an article, then consider including it in the Puerto Rican or Puerto Rican-American articles, again, with sources. Remember, we must always include all valid and duly sourced arguments in order to maintain a neutral point of view. However, arguments which are based on Original Research, cannot be placed in articles, including...
"As is the case with most of Latin America, being white is what they would love to be known as even if their appearances are very far from it."
"Many PR's refuse to accept their 'blackness' and instead cling to a false ideal of whiteness and when all else fails..."
"PR's (Puerto Ricans), like Dominicans and others are ashamed of their African blood..."
"...PR's (Puerto Ricans) do not look white, but they look almost enirely like African-Americans (light-skinned type in general)..."
If reliable sources are found which can evidence these arguments, then feel free to present them on this talk page first, then, when consensus is reached, include it in the article. Thanks. - Mtmelendez (TALK|UB|HOME) 16:57, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

You know, with all of the lies, it is hard to find a 'source' for the truth. How about looking at the people as a source? Also, the 80% white figure is not a valid source either as it says that most PR 'say' that they are white. Anyone can say that they are white or black. The politics makes them shy away from blackness and towards whiteness, as they feel that it will help them out in society. Let's get real, PR's are not Cubans, who I can honestly say that they do have what I and most would call white, as opposed to mulatto. Also, there is no mestizo in the Caribbean. In the meantime, I will try and find a 'source' to show the truth. The way these people think, it is like reading Islamc history and assuming that everyone is an arab because of the name.--71.235.81.39 01:27, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Here is one opinion from a PR [1]. I would consider him a source, as you cannot find opinions of one's self in a book.

Read, read, read! It will give you a good idea on both sides of the coin! [2] [3] --71.235.81.39 01:38, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


Comment: I see you obtained external sources to your claim. I've read all of them and believe only the second and third source seems to directly back up part of your claims. The first source is an essay on racial discrimination towards all Puerto Ricans and the "statehood fanaticism" syndrome of certain "isleños".
The sources are really good. I think that both the second and third sources are worth mentioning as a counter-argument to the "81% european ancestry" argument in the Puerto Rican article and the "80.5% described themselves as "white" in the Demographics section of the Puerto Rico article. However, I believe that a full counter-argument should be made at the Puerto Rican, Demographics of Puerto Rico and Puerto Ricans in the United States articles, since they discuss these issues in detail, much more than the Puerto Rico article. I personally think that the counter-argument should be more about Puerto Ricans' own racial identification and acceptance towards themselves, and less about whether they are predominantly "white" or "black". After all, the third source points out that: "in the 2000 census,... 42 percent of those identifying themselves as "Hispanic," "Spanish" or "Latino" also identified themselves as a member of "some other race" besides black or white. An additional 6 percent said they were members of "two or more races"[4], which doesn't necessarily mean that Puerto Ricans chose whiteness over blackness, but rather there is a large uncertainty between the community. I think this racial uncertainty within the Puerto Rican community should be the balancing argument (between white and black arguments) in the articles.
But remember: stick to information in the sources only, and do not stray beyond the boundaries of No Original Research. - Mtmelendez (TALK|UB|HOME) 15:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

The Culture paragraph looks broken, in particular, the sentence "A popular unofficial symbol of Puerto Rico would be the : "jibaro" which struggled under the introduction by US of new traditions, cultures and festivities unlike their own in the decades of the 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's. " - rstinejr, 8 Nov 2006.

Yes, it sucks. I will try to copyedit and clean it up. Joelito (talk) 00:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Someone is uploading Magic: The Gathering images in place of the designated images.

[edit] Comment about Puerto Rican Indians

This version lacks the cute line about the Indians thinking that Columbus et. al. were gods, due to their skin color, found in http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rico. :) Kyk 06:01, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I will read the article and see if I can incorporate it to the English version. Thanks for pointing that out. -- Maio 04:12, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Contrary to my opinion on the use of the word "mulatto" (see below), I do think these tales about the innocence of natives are in bad taste. We only have the Spaniard colonists' stories about it. -- 171.64.42.82 03:13, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
Even in Jr. High there we are taught that the Indians believed the Spaniards were Gods. -- Antonio Half a Meter Martin
Can't say I know more than you do...but since I LIVE in Puerto Rico, I guess that I COULD say my opinion. Basically it is true that we only have the Spaniards' versions, but don't know if you've heard it..but there's a story about a Spaniard named "Diego Salzero" (or something like that... The story goes that he made the Indians carry him on their shoulders so as to not get his feet and legs wet. The Indians, trying to see if they were "Gods" or not, let him fall and drowned him. When they saw he died, many were mad and that also started the "revolutions" of the Indians in PR. Also, I think the Spaniards, being all Catholic and doing the "Incisicion" (killing people that weren't Catholic in bizarre and barbaric ways)shouldn't have made themselves look like Gods or tell the Indians they were gods, if that's the true story.
                                      -RickRodz

The 1511 story about Diego Salzero was a fantacy story, created by the white Spanirds. It was originally a true story based upon the fact of the drowning of the Spanird Salzero and later it took on the twisted Christian revival of Christ to make it look the Taino thought that the Christians could not be killed. My people the Jatibonicu Taino of Boriken (Puerto Rico), had learned in an arreito gathering of Caribbean island Caciques (Chiefs) that, the white people were not gods as they had learned this back in 1492. The War-Chief Caonabo of the Tainos of the island of Haiti had killed the 48 spanirds that had built the Spanish fort called El Fortin Natividad back in December of 1492. Los Tainos de Boriken Viven! -JuanPerez

[edit] Statehood Fanatics

It appears some one with the IP address of 67.100.190.218 has posted nonsense about Puerto Rico. He/she has encouraged his POV for a political optiopn that the island has constantly rejected for over 108 years. Is there anyway to block this user from posting nonsense again? --XLR8TION 00:48, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Well,that person shouldn't do that but you know statehood has lots by really low margins

Statehood is only granted to a territory if approved by 2/3 majority of the House of Representatives and a majority in the Senate. People viting in favor of statehood have to realize that in order for a statehood petition to move forward in Congress an extremely plural majority (over 80% of the island's population) would have to vote for this status. If not, the statehood for Puerto Rico is simply a pipe dream. There are many ignorant people in the USA who don't know anything about the island or even that the island is under US control. Do you think with the rise of xenophobia against Spanish-speaking illegal immigrants with an economy that is way poorer than Mississippi, the poorest state in the Union, that the USA would admit a Spanish-speaking nation into it's fold? I don't think so. --XLR8TION 21:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Congress (with 2/3 of the House and a majority of the Senate) can make a state. The territory technically does not have to do anything besides have a republican form of government. Similarly, if every single Puerto Rican voted for statehood, Congress would not be required to grant the island statehood. Chiss Boy 19:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


Actually the political party that pushes for statehood is the mayority, however they have lost recently due to an union betwen the other two parties, the Puerto Rican status issues has become the main political focus of the island for the last year, racism and paranoia aganist imigrants probably isn't as strong aganist Puerto Ricans since they are already american citizens, but it might slow a status solution

Neither the NPP nor any organized group of statehood supporters have ever been able to claim any so-called "mayority" in the political stage of this island. In fact, the results of all plebiscites clearly show that those who oppose statehood have always been the absolute majority. Flybd5 15:16, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Yet those who support independence has had a very tiny portion of the vote. In each referenda, the largest grouping was for the status-quo, the second largest for statehood, and trailing third for independence. Chiss Boy 19:19, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

This country is so polarized that neither statehood nor independence are viable alternatives for which the population can choose from unless we take the ELA choice out of the picture. And even then I don't think a clear winner will be decided. Besides, a clear and overwhelming choice of either one is not a guarantee that they'll happen. I believe Guam has had numerous plebiscites with an huge majority favoring statehood, but Congress just ignores them.

Are making the Guam thing up? At least for recent history? Puerto Rican votes on statehood/independence/etc. make the American news; no mention of similar things in Guam come up. And Guam has a higher per capita GDP than Puerto Rico. It is not probable that Congress would "just ignore them." It might reject statehood on account of Guam's small population, and it's geographic size and location, but it probably wouldn't just ignore it. Chiss Boy 20:10, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
On GDP, GUAM's GDP was 2.5 billion compared to Puerto Rico's $78.96 billion in 2006, and the per capita GDP for Guam was a $15,000 compared to $19,100 in Puerto Rico. Source CIA FACTBOOK. And yes Guam has repeatedly pushed for an altered status, in fact using the ELA/Commonwealth status of Puerto Rico as a guideline towards statehood. However, the referendums have all been non-binding in Congress and any discussions of statehood tend to die in committee.Mad05963 09:24, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

So I believe that the real problem is not necessarily the status itself, but rather the political parties who routinely make false promises to their constituents, which in turn creates sort of like a "fanatic" base. If we take them out of the status equation, then the issue is not so controversial anymore and we can finally have some intelligent discussions and arguments about statehood, independence, or free association. Additionally, politicians would be forced to work on real concrete issues and problems, instead of patriotic (whether PR or US) soundbites and photo-ops.

That said, as far as the article is concerned, the politics section should only relate to brief and concise technical and historical data which is easily verifiable. The section is already pretty long as it is. - Mtmelendez 16:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Note

[moved from article] The article should point out how the United States' investment was not only little, but barely worthy of note. An example would be the U.S. Caribbean involvement in the Sugar industry and was a major contributor on disabling one of Puerto Rico's top economic source.

The article should also point out how Puerto Ricans only receive 1/4 of their Social Security (ex. SSI takes 100k, but a Puerto Rican will only receive 25k for his/her lifetime), how the ports are over-taxed by the federal government and other economic drawbacks that the U.S.A. exercises against the island, which does severely damage the island's economy, for undisclosed reasons. Example of the cause and effect of U.S. involvement: the elderly population is becoming unproportionately larger to the young population. The cause is due to the younger population seeking jobs outside the island, because the employment in the island is almost hereditary and nonexistent.

The U.S. does not collect Federal Income tax (from paychecks) because over 50 percent of the population would be entitled for a full refund, and further display of cruel and improper taxation would trigger an U.N involvement. Also, an increase in the bureaucracy for the sole purpose of collecting federal employment tax would be a strain on the delicate U.S budget; thus collecting is unrealistic. Personally, it would ultimate prove Puerto Rico is part of the American Empire as a colony instead of a Free Associate State (legal term for we own you, but will not do anything for you), which would violate U.N resolution for de-colonization. These and other issues should be explored in this article, which I'll happily post when my anger subsides.

Alexzandro Rivera

Inserting everything you have said would make the article heavily biased plus many of your remarks are your own ideas and conclusions. Furthermore, the U.S. invested heavily in Puerto Rico's infrastructure during the first half of the 20th century and continues to inject large quantities of money into Puerto Rico via grants, aid, etc. Joelito (talk) 16:43, 7 September 2006 (UTC)


NOTE also - Cuba was not ceded to the US in 1898, instead it became independent.

Nope. It fell under American control, and is still under American control (it is less than a state and is ruled by the Union (of American states)). Chiss Boy 19:25, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Puerto Rican citizenship

The government of Puerto Rico issued an official document certifying the Puerto Rican citizenship. This is a historic day. It is the first time since the establishment of the constitution of 1952 (Estado Libre Asociado de Puerto Rico)that it is officially recognized and a citizenship document is issued. The Puerto Riccan government announced that starting in about 45 days anyone born in Puerto Rico (there is pending those born outiside PR but parents are born in PR)will be able to apply for the official document that certifies the Puerto Rican citizenship. reference:[5] and [6] --vertical 16:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

  • I was asked for my opinion in regard to the Puerto Rican citizenship and here it is. Yes, it is true that it is a historical event (I expect this fact to be incorporated into this article) and it reaffirms what I have always believed. I have always stated that, even though Puerto Rico is not an independent nation, Puerto Rico is a "nation" with its own culture, traditions and variation of the Spanish language. However, it is interesting to note that every Puerto Rican born between December 10, 1898, after the United States and Spain signed the Treaty of Paris and March 2, 1917 when the Jones Act was signed into law by United States President Woodrow Wilson, was a Puerto Rican citizen. If I an correct, this action should create a tug-of-war between those who are willing to accept a Puerto Rican citizenship as stipulated and those who only want an American citizenship. It will be interesting thing to see what the reaction will be now that (according to what I have read) Puerto Ricans will be able to have a dual citizenship. Tony the Marine 01:50, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Occupation

Puerto Rico was not invaded by the US, it was liberated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.126.143.59 (talk • contribs).

As I have explained to you on your talk page, the U.S. invaded Puerto Rico. They had no intention of liberating Puerto Rico from Spanish rule. Furthermore, if PR was liberated how come it is neither sovereign nor a state? Joelito (talk) 20:56, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Because PR chose to become a commonwealth. If it wasn't liberated, how come it isn't on the UN list of non-selfgoverning territories?
To both of you, that depends on your views. Puerto Rico was freed from the shackles of Imperial Spanish rule--but then came under control of the United States. While under American rule, they accrued more rights than they probably would have if they remained with the Spanish. However, they were less free than they would have been had they won an independent country. Chiss Boy 19:37, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Not quite, Puerto Rico was awarded an Autonomous Charter in 1897 by Spain, which provided for greater sovereignty than it even has now, The Spanish American War however broke soon after the charter was to go into effect. The Charter gave Puerto Rico complete control over its economy, judicial system, and the right to form its own constitution, all of which are not available under the Commonwealth system.Mad05963 09:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not on the list because the nation who wields the most power in the UN is the USA. Puerto Rico was not given any political options from the date the US invaded the island (July 25, 1898) to the date it became a commonwealth (July 25, 1952). Whereas Cuba became independent (on paper) four years later in 1902, Puerto Rico was administered by the Department of the Interior. Liberation stems from the word "liberty." If liberty did exist after the 1898 invasion, then Puerto Rico would be independent now as statehood was not really a viable or attainable status in the eyes of an English speaking, Protestant majority country like the United States. --XLR8TION 21:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

So Virginia does not have liberty? PR was guarenteed all freedoms granted to US citizens, freedoms they didn't enjoy under spain, and no, the US doesn't just get their way in the UN, try reading the news for a change.
You are incorrect in both counts. Virginia is neither free nor sovereign, it is part of the USA and Puerto Ricans do not have all freedoms granted to US citizens (e.g. voting for the president). Joelito (talk) 23:26, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Virginia is most definitely free, by your definition no one is free, as there is always a soverign entity over their little piece of the planet. PR's lack of votes is by choice. PR has had many chances to get statehood, and will continue to have them, they have thus far FREELY decided to remain a territory due to tax benefits, etc. Should Bavaria be on the UN list of non-self governed territories? What about the city of Perth? Wake up and smell the common sense dude.
American states and the federal government are supposed to be co-sovereign. The federal government has sovereignty in some areas (defense against foreigners, trade with other countries, etc.), with the rest of the sovereignty going to the states. However, de facto, sovereignty has been going more and more to Washington, D.C.. However, the federal government is not legally able to alter a state's geographic boundaries, and otherwise interfere in state affairs without the state's consent over several topics, which the federal government can do to territories (generally used for Puerto Rico, the American Virgin Islands, Guam, American Samoa, the Northern Marianas, etc.). If Congress decides to merge Puerto Rico and the American Virgin Islands into one entity, they can. The same with removing the territories' governments and appointing new ones, along with removing citizen status, as one Wikipedian mentioned--all against territorial citizens' consent. These things definitely could not legally be done to states or citizens thereof. Chiss Boy 19:37, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
When a territory becomes a state there is no way it can secede from the Union. Therefore if Virginia is unhappy with its relationship with the USA, it can't do anything to change their status. They have to remain attached, unhappy, and not free to separate from the US. DO you call this freedom? Hawaii was only given two choices in 1959: Statehood or territory status. What about independence? No, it was not offered in the plebescite that Hawaiians voted in. Do you call this freedom when there is no freedom of choice? The US had many opportunities to rid itself of Puerto Rico, but when the FBI harasses pro-independence sympathizers, arrest and tortures many of them, and only scare many so that they won't join the independence party of they would be blacklisted from employment and housing, do you call this freedom or oppression. I say that the latter term would apply. If Bavaria or Perth wish to secede from their respected countries, than they should be placed on the UN list upon consulting with their federal governments. XLR8TION 01:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Whether a state has the right to secede is hotly contested. You should know this (if you are an American). Technically, Texas and Virginia (interestingly y'all decided to use Virginia as an example) entered the Union with agreements made that they specifically could secede if they chose. Obviously in the case of Texas in the War Between the States that was not honored. Also, during the War of 1812, some of the New England states considered seceding and reuniting with the British. Chiss Boy 19:44, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I call it a social contract that maintains your freedoms and documented by our constitution. You know what? Illinois was given two choices, Statehood or territory. What about independance? Not how the game works, but if we had pressed for it enough, I bet it would have happened. Freedom of choice doesn't mean freedom of all choices. You are not free to randomly murder children. Does this mean you aren't free? Of course not. Your argument utilizes logical fallacy and absurd notions. Puerto Rico is a vital part of the USA, and has been given enourmous latitude exceeding that given to many states. US citizens in Puerto Rico have the same rights and responsibilities as other US citizens. Want to move to Illinois? Come on over, you can work and everything, just like you were from New Mexico or Florida. Puerto Rico hasn't been oppressed, but liberated, joining the free world in 1898, and securing a place there with much more self determination than other members.

It is a fact that Puerto Rico enjoyed more political liberties and autonomy under Spain ( see Carta Autonómica 1897[7])in 1897 than during and after the US invasion (1898) which established a colonial regime which did not give self government nor voting representation in their congress to puerto ricans like Spain did in 1987. This fact is widely recognized by puerto rican historians. --vertical 16:52, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

And yet, if Puerto Rico stayed a part of the Spanish Empire, do you think that the island would become part of the country, and if so, at least until recently, the country was centrally ruled from Madrid. Puerto Rico would have MUCH less freedom than it would as an American state (which has been an option for it for some time--if the Puerto Ricans chose statehood, Congress would probably honor it). Also, in the short term, Puerto Rico was granted a degree of self-rule only few years after the Spanish American War. This makes sense after a war. Do you think that after an uprising, a Spanish Puerto Rico would immediately be given more freedom from Madrid? Chiss Boy 20:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Puerto Rico never joined the Free World in 1898. How ignorant can you be? The island's inhabitants were treated as property and the island itself was a spoil of a war that was caused by yellow journalism. Until the island joins it proper place in the family of nations, then it is not free. --XLR8TION 18:53, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Then vote for independence already and stop sucking in American money. Chiss Boy 20:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
It should now be abundantly clear to all other editors that you are trying to push POV here, namely that Puerto Rico is and should be a soverign nation. A POV which neither reflects reality, nor the declarations of the United Nations.
You POV that Puerto Rico was liberated is absurd. Your redundancy is tiring. Dossiers that the US Government had on Puerto Rican nationalists and furthermore US propaganda at the time show "America's New Colonies" with an eagle stretching its' wings from the Philippines to Puerto Rico clearly show that the US government had no plans on letting go their new colonial playgrounds. If you call being conquered by another foreign power liberation than seriously you are both diluted and ignorant. --XLR8TION 02:34, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
You've had several votes for independence (along with statehood and status-quo). YOU voted for the status-quo (with independence getting an miniscule amount of the vote). The United States is not holding you back from independence, if that is what you choose, Congress would probably let you have independence. Chiss Boy 20:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
The majority of Puerto Ricans enjoy being part of the USA, they have voted as such. Liberation movements are non-existant. As per the Eagle, it's our natural symbol, and the wings were welcoming our new children into Freedom.
  • Let me break down the comments of Mr. Unsigner.

1. To state "Liberation movements are non-existent" " without any prove is POV and false.

2. To state that "Eagle" is "our" natural symbol is also POV. Wikipedia is made up of thousands of users who do not consider the "Eagle" thier symbol.

3. "Natural" symbol? All birds are natural since they come from nature.

4. The "Eagle" is "not" the symbol of only the United States. Only the "Bald Eagle" species is. Mexico also has an Eagle as their symbol (Take a look at the Mexican flag).

5. The "Puerto Rican Spindalis" is the "national" bird of Puerto Rico and of the Puerto Rican people.

Stick to the facts and speak for youself and not for others. Do us a favor and sign your comments. What can we expect from someone who doesn't know the difference from the words "liberation" and "invasion"? Tony the Marine 14:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Again, that depends on your view. There was indeed an invasion, but the island was freed from Spanish rule (to be put under American rule--with a large degree of autonomy given in only a few years after effects of the war somewhat stabilized). Chiss Boy 20:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Don't be deliberately obtuse.
1. Liberation movements exist. There is proof that the independance party of Puerto Rico is in the minority. RTFA, it's there plain as day.
2. No it isn't don't be deliberately obtuse. Puerto Rico is part of the US of A. The Eagle is the national bird of the USA, and is thus the natural symbol to use to represent the USA.
3. See above, though I will repeat, don't be deliberately obtuse.
4. You seem to like causing trouble by picking nits with obvious statements. The cartoon in question features the Bald Eagle.
5. Puerto Rico, as part of the United States, has the Bald Eagle as their national bird. To say otherwise ignores reality. Their regional bird may be the Puerto Rico Spindalis, but hey, Virginia's regional bird is the cardinal. Just like Puerto Rico, however, Virginia's national bird is the Bald Eagle.


My fellow Wikipedians, Joel, vertical and XLR8TION, when I read this discussion, I couldn't help but to laugh at the notion that Puerto Rico was liberated as stated by the know-it-all User who is not registered and doesn't even care to sign his/her comments. How is it possible that in this day of age there are people who pretend to rewrite history to suite their own perspective? Does the unregistered no signer know that Wikipedia is based on proven facts and not on what is considered his/her own personal unhistorical point of view? Puerto Rico was not liberated, it was invaded and that is an undeniable fact. Does he/she call liberation changing from one master to another? Puerto Rico was granted many autonomist powers and possibly on its way to independence when it was invaded. Freedom? Sure, but a restricted Freedom. Did the United States hold a consensus among the Puerto Rican people and ask them if they wanted to become a United States territory? Did the United States hold a consensus among the Puerto Rican people and ask them if they wanted U. S. citizenship? Did the United States hold a consensus among the Puerto Rican people and ask them if it was alright for the United States Armed Forces to bombard the populated island of Vieques? Does the United States permit Puerto Rico to purchase prime material at a cheaper price from other countries? So on and so fourth. Our youth is sent to fight and die in the military battles of the United States, but they are not allowed to vote for the President responsible for sending them there in the first place. Is that Freedom of choice?

I don't know, but I believe that this unregistered user is trying to take everyone here for a ride. Either that or he/she is trying to start a senseless debate. If he/she continues to add the term "liberation" and delete the proper term which is invasion, I suggest that he/she be banded for continuously posting a POV which on a repetition basis and as such maybe considered vandalism.

Tony the Marine 03:45, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Your unilateral decision that the "proper term" is invasion is in itself as POV as is stating that the "proper term" is liberation. Chiss Boy 20:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Check the records before making accusations. I haven't changed the article since taking this to talk. I am following policy and being courteous. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I am a vandal.
Additionally, no youth from Puerto Rico is being "sent to fight and die in the military battles of the United States". Some US citizens from the US territory of Puerto Rico have volunteered for their country to fight and die for their country. But no one is out rounding them up and shipping them over.

I agree with you Tony., Apparently the poster is a ranting imbecile. I suggest that he be banned immediately because apparently it seems that he is a GOP-card carrying member of the Minutemen who hold animosity towards Puerto Ricans. --XLR8TION 14:33, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Whoa there, don't jump to conclusions about the guy simply because he disagrees with you about Puerto Rico. And why should a Republican Minuteman be banned (even if he did have animosity toward Puerto Ricans--which doesn't show in his comments. You seem to be seeing what you want to see about the user. He should sign some username, though. Chiss Boy 20:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I love Puerto Rico, and if anyone here needs to be banned it is you for making a personal attack.
Blah, blah, blah. To others on this topic, lets move on to more creative things. The notion of keeping the dolts entertained has become tiresome and boring. --XLR8TION 20:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Making personal attacks doesn't make you seem any smarter, or your point seem any more valid. I've brought up some counter points, if you'd like to debate this intelligently and civily, I am interested in your responses.
Stop dissing people just because they disagree with you. Chiss Boy 20:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


Ignore the troll. If he/she was actually interested in intelligent discussion he/she would present intelligent arguments and sign the comments. Smylere Snape 04:14, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I've made quite a number of intelligent arguments, and responded to all that have been posted here, no one has responded to mine. As per signing the comments, I'm new here and just learned how. 130.126.143.59 21:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Why's he a troll? Here's a clue: he isn't. He just has views contrary to yours, and you don't want to accept that. Chiss Boy 20:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
For the sake of discussion, does making a statement such as the one which started all of this fall under opinion, and as such, subject to WP:NPOV?Demf 13:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

13:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

No more than the word "invaded". 130.126.143.59 20:30, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
From the Wikitonary: Invasion Noun 1. A military action consisting of armed forces of one geopolitical entity entering territory controlled by another such entity, generally with the objective of conquering territory or altering the established government. By all historical accounts, the landing of US troops on Guanica was done with the objective of altering the established government, from a Spanish government to a military US government. Hence, the term "invasion" is accurate and does not represent an opinion. Smylere Snape 23:08, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Yet the term liberation is just as accurate: Puerto Rico was fighting against the Spanish--and the Americans removed the Spanish. Both terms are accurate, both terms are loaded. How about mentioning that the Americans removed Spanish rule, but then imposed American rule, and then in a few years gave some autonomy? Chiss Boy 20:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
The word invasion is not a value-laden term. It is a description of an act. Liberation is a subjective term, its meaning changes from the point of view of its user. Whether the intentions are for good or for bad, if you land troops in a foreign country without that country's permission it is an invasion. In the case of Puerto Rico, many believed that the United States would immediately grant the island independence and supported the Americans, but many also fought against the American invasion, look at the battle of Fajardo where local Puerto Ricans defended the town from American troops. To them this was definitely not a liberation, nor was it for Henry K Carroll, the U.S. official sent to gauge the island's disposition after the invasion, who noted the frustration of most Puerto Ricans against a military government which operated marshall law on the island. And those "few years" you mention were actually 50 years, half a century, before self government was granted under the Commonwealth constitution, and only after said constitution was approved by the U.S. Congress.Mad05963 09:50, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1954, is that there in the article although searching for 1954 did not give a hit

When were they freed??

Associated Press Newswires It's Been 50 Years Since Worst Attack On Congress

By JIM ABRAMS February 24, 2004 Copyright ©2004 Associated Press Newswires. All rights reserved.

WASHINGTON (AP) - A penny-sized bullet hole marks the desk used by Republicans when they speak on the floor of the House, a memento of the worst terrorist attack against Congress.

On March 1, 1954, four Puerto Rican nationalists opened fire from the visitors' gallery above the chamber. They sprayed some 30 shots around the hall and wounded five lawmakers, one seriously.

Amazingly, no one was killed even though some 240 members were on the floor at the time of the shooting, which happened 50 years ago Monday. Bullets penetrating the Republican desk barely missed Majority Leader Charles Halleck, R-Ind., who was hit by flying splinters.

It was a stunning act of violence in a body that, despite its openness to the public, had been relatively violence-free in its first century and a half.

There had been isolated incidents of lawmakers assaulting each other. President Andrew Jackson narrowly escaped an assassin outside the Capitol Rotunda in 1835. In 1915, a Harvard professor protesting U.S. policy toward Germany destroyed two Senate rooms with a bomb. A Vietnam War protester set off a bomb in a Senate restroom in 1971.

The first metal detectors at the Capitol did not appear until 1976. It was not until 1998, when a man with a history of mental illness shot and killed two Capitol Police officers, that the need to deal with security threats took on a real sense of urgency.

http://www.puertorico-herald.org/issues/2004/vol8n10/ItsBeen50.shtml 194.215.75.17 10:38, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


OK, I found it
President Carter freed the Puerto Ricans in 1979 after they had served 25 years in prison. Although the :Carter White House denied any connection, their release coincided with Fidel Castro's release of several :Americans being held in Cuba on espionage charges.

Or is it all an urban legend?? 194.215.75.17 10:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lakes

Xena91388 (talk • contribs) removed the statement that all of Puerto Rico's 17 lakes were man-made. All the lakes listed by the reference are man-made, but I was wondering about Laguna Cartagena, which is natural (as was Laguna Guánica). Also, depending on the definition of "lakes" what about the salt ponds (e.g., at Playa Santa and near the Cabo Rojo lighthouse)? Guettarda 16:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

  1. A laguna, by definition, is not a lake (look it up you'll find it). There's no question about what a lake is, and all of puerto rico's lakes ARE man made. You can not argue facts people.Cjrs 79 19:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, Laguna Cartagena is freshwater, has open water - sounds like a shallow lake to me. Guettarda 20:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
But it is not. If you look at the official website of the department of natural resources wild life it is described as a lagoon (it is much smaller than a lake)Cjrs 79 20:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Income

This sentence is quite difficult to deciever: Puerto Ricans had a per capita Gross Domestic Product (GDP) estimate of $17,700 for 2004,[1] which demonstrates a growth over the $14,412 level measured in the 2002 Current Population Survey by the Puerto Rican Legal Defense and Education Fund.[24] In that survey, Puerto Ricans have a 48.2% poverty rate. By comparison, the poorest State of the Union, Mississippi, had a median level of $21,587, according to the U.S. Census Bureau’s Current Population Survey, 2002 to 2004 Annual Social and Economic Supplements. -What is the "median level of $21,587?"- Household income? Can't be. Personal median Income? What is it compared to? To me this phrase sounds as if someone has compared Puerto Rico's GDP per capita to Mississippi's median personal income. An absolute no-no. GDP per capita mearues the economic activity in general and is not a measure of private wealth. The US for example has a GDP per capita of $42,000-yet the median personal income for those age 25+ was $32,140. While I think this is a truly great and informative article the section I mentioned above needs to bit of revising. Best Regards, SignaturebrendelHAPPY HOLIDAYS 07:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish African & Indian

I really wish people would tell the truth..there was much more than the Spanish as far as Europeans who migrated to Puerto Rico. and it's a lie that all Puerto Ricans are a mix of Spanish,African & Indio/Taino blood. --Ja§

A related but separate item, with some background comments on genetics. The first cited article (16)indicates that the gene pool was comprised of 45% European contribution, 37% African, and 18% Native American. The second article (17) on mitochondrial DNA (inherited from the mother only) found 61.1% as having Amerindian maternal mtDNA, 26.4% as having African maternal mtDNA, and 12.5% as having Caucasian maternal mtDNA.
These seem contradictory, but they're not. This suggests that many more European men than European women contributed to the island population. This makes sense as it is likely that conquistadors and other invaders, merchant sailors, adventurers, labourers and so on, coming to a new land, are more likely to be male. I'm not a geneticist and I don't have a citation, so I won't edit this into the page, but perhaps someone else would like to follow up (first added 10 January 2007) formatted today. Cooker 00:25, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
This article in the Puerto Rico Herald talks about the results of genetic analysis which strongly suggest that the vast majority of immigrants to PR were Europeans, and that many of those mixed with the Taino population. Unless someone can find documentation showing or strongly suggesting that there was a significant component other than Spaniards for immigrants to Puerto Rico during its Spanish colonial period, I see no support for a statement saying that "there was much more than the Spanish as far as Europeans who migrated to Puerto Rico." The evidence so far points to strong support for the statement that the vast majority of our gene pool indicates Spanish/African/Taino ascendancy. Flybd5 15:58, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Politics Section

The phrase "colonial-Commonwealth election" does not seem neutral to me. It would make just as much sense - and be far more objective - if "colonial-Commonwealth" was omitted altogether. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.89.1.82 (talk) 23:51, 21 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Very long article

This article is becoming too long (57 kb). Even I have some trouble reading it. I'm tempted to tag it, but let's discuss it first. I think the Politics section could be shortened a bit, especially since it has its own article. - Mtmelendez 16:37, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

That section is a mess. Please shorten it and maintain NPOV. Joelito (talk) 20:47, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Be careful what you wish for! Separate PR politics into its own page and it will burn a hole on the platter of whatever hard disk its stored on! hehehe Flybd5 13:30, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Talk

And I quote: "This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Puerto Rico article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject." Thanks. Cjrs 79 23:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling of Puerto Rico

In the first sentence is states that the spelling "Porto Rico" is archaic. In know that the U.S. spelling was changed in 1932, but was it ever spelt this way in Spanish or was this just a mispelling in English? If "Porto Rico" was an old Spanish spelling, when did it change? I know this may be just trivia, but it has been something that has bugged me for a long time. 72.66.124.154 13:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

According to this site, on 1932 May 17 "the Congress of the United States approves a law to change back the name of the island from Porto Rico back to Puerto Rico. The name had been used (spelled) erroneously as Porto Rico by U. S. Navy personnel." Another site (at Google Books) offers more background to this explanation, as well as mentioning that several other languages, but not Spanish, spell the island's name as Porto Rico. EdK 22:26, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Official Languages

There is nothing in the Puerto Rican Constitution about official languages. The only thing it states about languages is that for someone to hold office he/she must speak either english OR spanish. and i quote:'Section 5. No person shall be a member of the Legislative Assembly unless he is able to read and write the Spanish or English language and unless he is a citizen of the United States and of Puerto Rico and has resided in Puerto Rico at least two years immediately prior to the date of his election or appointment. No person shall be a member of the Senate who is not over thirty years of age, and no person shall be a member of the House of Representatives who is not over twenty-five years of age. ' taken from: http://premium.caribe.net/~amvr/constitu.htm Cjrs 79 17:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC)


On November 4, the second elections under Foraker Act were celebrated (registered voters 158,924). The Official Languages Act (under the Foraker Act) was instituted which declared that in all insular governmental departments, courts, and public offices, English was to be regarded as co-official with Spanish, and when necessary, translations and interpretations from one language to the other would be made so that all parties could understand the proceedings. The 1952 Constitution stated that no one could be a member of the legislature if they did not know both langauges, hence, the constitution unofficially endorsed bilingualism. [8]. --XLR8TION 18:18, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

EITHER NOT BOTH. They had to know one of the languages NOT both languages. Foraker Act was superseded by the constitution, which you can check on the actual congressional act confirming the constitution. Please check your facts. And, many of these things have been discussed before and are archived discussions, why can't you check those before editing on controversial matters? this is not the first time you've done that. take care. Cjrs 79 20:56, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Let's say that the Foraker Act had indeed made Puerto Rico's official language both english and spanish, then how could the governor's change the law by an act of the state legislature, and then why would some congressmen be so worried about the official language of the island when discussing a law allowing puerto ricans to decide their status in the past? If indeed the forakeract had stated that the official language were to be both languages, then this would be a settled matter. Another thing, many states issue their documents in more than one language that dones't mean that all of those are their official languages.Cjrs 79 21:01, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

On changing the Spanish Official language to the Spanish-English languages under Rossello:

"Many political analysts saw this move by the pro-statehood governor as a way to move the island closer to statehood, which despite many attempts and plebescites, never came about during his two consecutive terms."

I'm not much of a political analyst, but this statement has a lack of NPOV and sounds like original research. It wasn't cited so I removed it. - Mtmelendez (TALK|UB|HOME) 20:51, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Reverted edit by MTmelendez: This is not a violation of the NPOV. The Young Bill of 1998 reiterated the need for Puerto RIcans to be fluent by the age of 10. Furthermore, recently Kenneth McClintock said that U.S. funding should be cut off if English is not taught in Puerto Rican schools. It doesn't take a genius to figure this one out that this is a move by a radical minority trying to impose statehood on a culturally-distinct nation as Puerto Rico. [9]. The only party that has made English in an issue in Puerto Rico is the NPP(PNP), not the PDP nor the PIP. The NPP(PNP) only wants one thing: Statehood. --XLR8TION 22:07, 27 February 2007 (UTC)


To XLR8TION:
I will not revert your action, in order to fully discuss the issue here frist. I simply tagged the phrase with a verification needed so that we obtain reliable sources as to the assertion of the NPP's stance on the languages. After all, edit wars are useless tools for stupid people.

I strongly disagree with you on the NPOV issue. The reason I deleted it was because:

  1. The issue is controversial, and if we say that "Many political analysts" are saying that Rossello used his power to promote his statehood stance, then we should include sources. Otherwise, it should not be included because the issue could be inflammatory.
  2. If we just said that: (1) Hernandez Colon approved the Spanish-only law, (2) he was praised by some, including those of his party and the independence party, (3) the law earned international recognition, and (4) Rossello, being a statehooder, reversed the law; we could avoid NPOV issues while still stating the most important information.
  3. Stating that the reason Rossello changed the law was to promote his political stance is a POV, and its completely acceptable, as long as its referenced. On the other hand, others could argue that the reason Hernandez Colon changed the law in the first place is to promote his political stance on autonomy, since he has been rumored[citation needed] (tag added by myself) that he is an "free autonomist" (i.e. is PDP but prefers independence or complete free association than ELA; similar to, though not as noticible as, Churumba's stance) However, this argument is not included, since it is possibly controversial and not referenced. To be NPOV, both points of view should either be included or not included.
  4. The article could be nominated to FA status again, and these controversial and unreferenced issues will surely deny it FA status.

I hope this explains my actions. This issue should be resolved, maybe now, maybe in the future, maybe when it gets nominated for FA. - Mtmelendez (TALK|UB|HOME) 22:30, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Mtmelendez. I have a problem with the use of words such as some, many, certain.. without any reference. Cjrs 79 22:54, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge from Puerto Rican

There exists an unreferenced article Puerto Rican. It seems the content could be included here until such time that enough verifiable content could be collected to support an independent article. I propose a merge be conducted in 14 days from today. In the mean time, if knowledgeable editors could review the Puerto Rican article for accuracy, it would be appreciated. Alan.ca 11:01, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The Puerto Rico article is already over 50K, and there are dozens of articles that link to Puerto Rican. Perhaps a better solution is to move some material from this page to Puerto Rican and reference that page here. -- TedFrank 22:49, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:DAB

Per WP:DAB, I edited to use the otheruses4 tag. -- TedFrank 03:57, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spammiong of game

People dont come to Puerto ricio to see about a German game but those trying to promote that game naturally would love to see it spammed inot the top of this page. We now have a disambiguation page so there aare no furthwer excuases for spamming in this unnotable game here, SqueakBox 22:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Again, see WP:DAB#Links_to_disambiguation_pages. "There is rarely a need for links directly to disambiguation pages—except from any primary topic. In most cases, links should point to the article that deals with the specific meaning intended." I understand (perhaps incorrectly) that to mean that one shouldn't link to the disambiguation page when there is only one other use. If your claim is that the other use is non-notable, then feel free to issue an AfD claiming a violation of WP:N, but it won't go very far, given that that claim is objectively incorrect. If you think a different template is appropriate, please make that argument with reference to the WP:DAB policy. -- TedFrank 22:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
And now that the disambiguation page is a real disambiguation page, I've changed it back to the {otheruses} tag, which should end the disagreement. Thanks to User:Dhartung for his work. -- TedFrank 14:01, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge-mania

Image:Mergedisputed.svgOk, guys... I'm confused. It seems there's a quite a few Puerto-Rican articles currently under proposal to merge. However, the merge proposals don't make any sense:

There is no central discussion on these changes, which there should be, since the proposed changes in one merge or article significantly affect the merge of the other articles. So what's it going to be? Are we going to leave them "as is", or are we going to merge all or some of them? - Mtmelendez (TALK|UB|HOME) 14:48, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I think only the second item (Puerto Rican-American to Puerto Rican should be merged. PR in the US should be its own article, as well as Puerto Rican. Charleenmerced Talk 20:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced

Puerto Rican and Puerto Rico should not be merged. Joelito (talk) 22:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Puerto Rican and Puerto Rico should not be merged I agree also, But I don't really see anything in Puerto Rican-American that merits its existence, it isn't even a term in use by either people in the island or in the United States.Mad05963 10:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

How about merging Puerto Rican-American with both Puerto Rican and Puerto Ricans in the United States? - Mtmelendez (TALK|UB|HOME) 14:54, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

This is great information about Puerto Rico on Wikipedia. It gives me great pride that I come from such a wonderful place. There was information that I did not know about Puerto Rico and by reading this it gave me a clear understanding of the history of Puerto Rico. There are many singers, actors, actresses etc. that come from Puerto Rico and I am proud that us Puerto Ricans are being recognized for our talents. Tengo mucho orgullo de mi Puerto Rico. Puerto Rican food is delicious, I can eat it everyday. Sometimes eating it too much is not healthy but I enjoy it. Since I am doing this for a class assignment I would like my fellow classmates to learn a little bit about my origin. I hope they like Puerto Rico as much as I do.{T.Acevedo, English 110}

Glad you liked it. You know, many editors put alot of time in making the article as it is. You can help! - Mtmelendez (TALK|UB|HOME) 00:04, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Questions on PR-US relationship

Do Puerto Ricans have any representation (vote) in the US govt.?

Vote, no. Voice, yes. We have a resident commissioner who has voice but no vote on

Congress.

  • Further comment - Puerto Ricans living in the United States can vote in regular elections.--Charleenmerced Talk 21:45, 2 April 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced

Were they subject to military draft?

Yes, we are subject to military draft.

Do you go thru customs or immigration control when travelling between PR and US?

Customs.

Do US citizens have an automatic right to live in PR or own property there as they would in the US? Fourtildas 18:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, exactly as in the US. Joelito (talk) 20:17, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
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