Talk:Puerto Rico/Archive 1

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Contents

Cleanup

This article has been listed on Wikipedia:Cleanup for the following reasons:

  • article is a mess
  • 99% population is in school???
  • article needs to be trimmed / lenghty text
    • some sections are too long and need to be made concise
    • sections should only be written as a short summary, as prescribed by Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries
      • section details should be explained on other articles
        • e.g. politics section

-- Jiang, Maio (early 2004?)

This article is a mess

The sections should be short summaries, with the details being explained in the subarticles. The history and politics sections need to be trimmed, with content being moved to the appropriate articles, which are lacking. --Jiang 21:56, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I already moved part of it to Constitution of Puerto Rico. --Jiang
Working on it as I write this. God this is gonna take so much time. :'~( --Maio 04:12, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I finally added some things to the "culture" section! (jibaros, mix of races, influences, etc.) That section really WAS short. I hope it's a bit better now..although it still needs a lot of work to do!

Question regarding the Demographic section

The article mentiones that settlers in Puerto Rico include Dominicans, Panamanians, and Santomeños. This article (and other sources that copy directly from it) is the only place I have heard Santomeños referenced - could any light be shed on this group? --User:RB McLeroy 00:54, 3 Jul 2005

Santomeños (spanish word) refers to people from St Thomas and St Croix, two small west indies islands east of Puerto Rico that are part of the Virgin Islands. This mention has no relevance and should be eliminated since in numbers they are non existant or too insignificant, as well as the mention of people from Curazao (never heard of this) As frequent shopping /medical tourists/visitors is correct to mention them but as settlers is not correct. I agree with the mention of Dominicans, Cubans also must be included as inmigrants since both are the most relevant groups of inmigrants in the last 50 years. I would not add any other group to the list in order to minimize confusion and misleading info --User:vertical123 02:58, 27 Nov 2005


Well, have to say that people from Curazao might be people from Curaçao (Dutch Caribbean island) the Netherlands Antilles, and since in numbers they are also non existant or too insignificant.

Shouldn't the Chinese be included also?

Puerto Rican cities

There are some links to Puerto Rican cities in Wikipedia:Wikipedians/Puerto_Rico which must be moved here or in one of the pages linked to from here or removed. Is it enough to have only a list of municipalities and no list of cities? -- Paddu 20:11 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)

There are no "cities" in Puerto Rico per se at the administrative level, all of them are considered municipalities (78 in total). There is no real consensus on which municipalities should be considered "cities", although San Juan, Caguas, and Ponce are always mentioned among them. For example, from the list at Wikipedia:Wikipedians/Puerto_Rico I can tell you that neither Culebra, nor Cayey, nor Lares, nor Salinas, nor Vieques are considered cities. Some history books mention 9 cities, while others mention 11, 7, etc. About a decade ago municipalities became autonomous, and some of the municipalities self-proclaimed to be cities. For example, the official name used in the Mayor's Office of Guaynabo is "Guaynabo City" (in English, not Spanish). --Maio 21:15, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC)
Thanks. Removed the list from Wikipedia:Wikipedians/Puerto_Rico. -- Paddu 05:34, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Largest City

When the term "largest city" is used, I believe there should be an explanation that it's meant to mean largest by population and not largest by area. It used to be there but someone deleted it. Is it common knowledge that largest city means largest in population?

Cjrs 79 16:24, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yes. You never hear of Mount Isa, Queensland, Australia referred to as the largest city in the world, do you? Taco Deposit | Talk-o Deposit 23:34, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

Merger needed

Jose de Diego and José de Diego need to be merged. I tried to do this but unfortunately the facts are contradictory so I had to give up hopefully someone here will know actually when he died etc.

Jose de Diego died in 1918. -RickRodz

Incorporated vs unincorporated

The article states that Puerto Rico is an incorporated territory of the US. In the article Incorporated territory Puerto is listed as unincorporated organized territories. I am confused. 143.50.221.28 11:59, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, that article lists PR as "unincorporated" and explains how it has that status. I'll be bold and make the change and link to that article.
Jonathunder 02:35, 2004 Nov 19 (UTC)
How can Puerto Rico be an organized territory if it has a constitution? according to organized territory it's defined as not having a constitution but an organic law.
Cjrs 79 04:14, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)
The article on organized territory is a little misleading--the statement there: An organized territory differed from a state in that although the organic act allowed for limited self government, a territory had no constitution and ultimate authority over the territory was held not by the territorial government but by the United States Congress. is more of a historical description applicable to those territories that became states. That article needs to be updated to clarify that these historical distinctions are not entirely applicable to contemporary territories. As currently applicable, "organized" simply means that the U.S. Congress has passed an Organic Act that establishes sefl-government. In some cases, as with the U.S. Virgin Islands and Guam, it is the Organic Act itself that is considered to be the territorial constitution. American Samoa is somewhat anomalous in that it has a constitution, but no Organic Act, and as such is technically "unorganized". Hope this helps. I'll take a shot at updating the organized territory article. older≠wiser 14:04, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)

Mona

Actually the island of Mona is not inhabitated year long except for employees of the Puerto Rico Department of Natural Resources. People can visit the island for hiking, camping, etc, by getting the required permits. But you can not, in any circumstance live in the island, no matter what your economical satus is. Also, at any given time there can't be more than a 100 people in the island, if i remember correctly. So, if anyone has anything else about this subject please let's discuss it so the neccesary changes can be made to the article. Cjrs 79 20:51, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)

Talk Page

Comments like the following are better suited for the talk page and not for the main article. "(The information does not say avg. it say pop. Percent. stop trolling)" Cjrs 79 15:50, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, Was the dna Averaged or not? the article does not say it is. -from a contributor "

Don't know what you mean by "averaged"? The researchers took a 'representative sample' from the islands population...I guess you might have to speak to someone in the field to get a more detailed explanation. F.P.S.

Controversial

This article is not controversial anymore, can we delete the controversial issues tag in the top of this page?? Cjrs 79 01:22, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

Anibal Salvador Acevedo Vila

Can someone direct me to a webpage where his middle name appears? I have never heard that he was salvador.Cjrs 79 19:59, May 8, 2005 (UTC)

It is, indeed... but I can't quote an article stating it... :-( 136.145.192.75 15:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

NPOV or Censorship?

Neutral point of view should not promote ambiguity, ruling class policy or political capitulation. This is not about politics, but about facts as they should be stated, not as “officials” and travel catalogues promote them. This is part of the reason why a project like the Wikipedia exists, to help us, the people, define the world as it is, and as we see it and live it -- without government, political and corporate oversight.

The comment about the use of the word “territory” as being “very non-NPOV" was very inaccurate. The U.S. State Department freely uses the terms commonwealth, freely associated state, possession, territory, dependencies, protectorates or dependent area as any insular, unincorporated area, including Puerto Rico. One should not be confused by the use of “commonwealth” as part of it’s “official” name to think that it is also a defacto and exclusive category to define Puerto Rico's political status. This is very wrong and misleading. It is, however, a political maneuver that many unread people gleefully accept.

I’ve seen too many references given to the CIA World Fact Book as if it were truly just that – a “fact book.” This is dangerous in the Wikipedia context. The CIA is a foreign intelligence agency under the employment of the United States Government. Yet, you’re telling me about “neutral points of view?”

“The initiatives taken by Puerto Rico and the United States had so far failed to set in motion Puerto Rico’s decolonization process.” This is from an official statement of the Special Committee on Decolonization of the United Nations, June 13, 2005. “Decolonization” means transference of a territory out of colonial political state.

Now you tell me who’s more neutral, the CIA or the United Nations?

Also, considering the immense history of this little island, the intro is as brief as it should be.

"who’s more neutral, the CIA or the United Nations?" Notwithstanding the long history of accusations, one of the CIA's primary missions is to gather and present factual information. The UN does not have that as one of its missions, in fact it's a political organization, and most of its pronouncements are crafted through negotiation and for political purposes. So while the fact book shouldn't be our sole source, in the absence of very solid evidence to the contrary, it is likely to be more authoritative on points of fact than a UN political statement. Stan 15:56, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Really? On WMDs the UN was right and the CIA was wrong. After the Iraq debacle, I don't think the CIA stands as a very credibe source. Guettarda 16:20, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Mona is uninhabitated through large parts of the year except for employees of the Puerto Rico Department of Natural Resources. People can visit the island for hiking and camping by getting the required permits."

With all the vital and important information that should be placed in the "brief intro," what the heck is this doing there??? This is pure fluff and has no business being there. Is there a mention of surfing in California beaches in the intro to the United States? Not even in the intro of California is there such fluff! I don't understand the reason/agenda in watering down the entry to Puerto Rico. If you're going to be the custodian to this entry, please catch up on some real history books about the island -- written by Puerto Ricans, not the CIA!

And regarding the comment above, CIA vs. United Nations, that is a monumentally naive statement. Please, pick up a book or two and read about what the CIA has done -- and openly admitted to -- with their "factual information." "Conduct covert action at the direction of the President to preempt threats or achieve United States policy objectives." That is part of their mission statement. Even if the United Nations does not have an "information gathering" mission, I think I'll side with them on the issue of "unbiased observation."

I don't mean any disrespect to anyone, but please keep in mind that this should not be about pushing an agenda, but informing. The perspectives should not be watered-down because they may cause "controversy." This is really lame. The whole world is controversial, it is what it is. The purpose of this project (Wikipedia) is not to make everyone feel warm, happy and fuzzy inside -- it is to serve as an open source of information where as many perspectives and sides can contribute to any given subject, given a reasonable degree of fact mixed with general opinion. This is what produces a people's encyclopedia.

And regarding the whole issue of "colony" and "territory" vs. the "official" semantics: I will gleefully bow before the powers that be -- that's not my issue. But once again, in the context of open source of information like this, the custodian of this entry should demonstrate a little more responsibility in his administration. To this end, he should include that the 'United States controls interstate trade, foreign relations and commerce, customs administration, control of air, land and sea, immigration and emigration, nationality and citizenship, currency, maritime laws, military service, military bases, army, navy and air force, declaration of war, constitutionality of laws, jurisdictions and legal procedures, treaties, radio and television--communications, agriculture, mining and minerals, highways, postal system; social security, and other areas generally controlled by the federal government in the United States,' somewhere before or after "People can visit the island for hiking and camping by getting the required permits." And these are facts that the CIA can confirm for you, should you have any doubts!

You're right, the idea that Puerto Rico is a colony is not a neutral point of view -- it's a joke. It's really sad to see this wonderful project censored by a small few who obstinately yield to the policy objectives of a government -- this should not be the place for that, and I submit that you are corroding this project by doing so.

Thank you, for inviting me into this debate. My name is Michael Guzman. I have residency in both New York and Puerto Rico (born and raised in PR). Sorry I haven't had time to registering, but I will if it will make the "community" happy. This project, as a whole, is truly evolutionary.


Puerto Rico's executive branch

Since I don't want to start an edit war I will like to debate here the argument of whether or not the chief of state of Puerto Rico is the president of the United States.

  • The United States of America does have ultimate power in any issues regarding Puerto Rico. But it is Congress not the president who has ultimate power over Puerto Rico.
  • As far as I am concerned all executive decisions are carried out by the Governor of Puerto Rico.
  • The Constitution of Puerto Rico grants all executive power to the elected governor, and only the governor, of Puerto Rico.
  • Puerto Ricans do not vote to elect the President of the United States. Can a chief of state, in a democracy, be someone for whom the inhabitants cannot vote for (or against)?

Because of the arguments above I believe that the President of The United States is not the chief of state of Puerto Rico. --Joelito 7 July 2005 23:06 (UTC)----

All of the above assertions are correct. The President of the United States has the same relationship with Puerto Rico as it does with any other state of the union. The President has no special powers over the island. Congress does have powers over the island, but i believe that they do not extend to more than it does in any other state. I think this last assertion is debatable and I think some people may reach a different conclusion. i am going to delete themention of the President as chief of state. Cjrs 79 July 8, 2005 16:14 (UTC)

He may not have any power, but he is the official head of state. The CIA says he is. Matjlav 16:16, 20 July 2005 (UTC)


Ok, let me try to explain it. The President of the US is as much Head of State of Puerto Rico as he is of any other US state, so if we include that in the Puerto Rico article, you would have to include it in the articles for each of the states. The CIA includes it because they have to. If they were not to include that in the article then people would think PR is independent. I see how this might be difficult to understand for someone not fmailiar with the status of Puerto Rico, Guam, US Virgin Islands and American Samoa, but it is what it is. Presindet of the United States, is the head of state and goverment of the United States, Governor of Puerto Rico is the head of the executive and goverment in the Island, as any other governor is in their state. Federal and state (also territorial goverments) are different levels of administration. I hope this makes it more clear. This is a very nice discussion by the way. Cjrs 79 01:37, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Let me add this. I read in your profile, Matjlav, that you are interested in Monarchies, well I understand your comment then. The Queen is head of state of different nations that have their own governors, well here is absolutely not the same. The President has no representative in the states that perform his reserved powers, moreover the President of the US has almos no power over states, except with the National Guards and thru the Department of Justice. If the President doesn't like a law in a state he can't veto it, or call the governor and tell him what to do, which a Chief of State could do, but he can't. I hope this makes my comment even more clear. Cjrs 79 01:41, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Demographics

So, who has said that: "Puerto Rico has sometimes been said to have a "White" majority, an extinct Amerindian population, persons of mixed ancestry, Africans and a small Asian minority"

I remember in school always talking about us puerto ricans been all of mixed ancestry, spanish, african and taino. Any comments? It is true that many puerto ricans see themselves as whites, but if you ask them they will also accept their mixed ancestry, and when the say white they just mean the color of their skin.

Cjrs 79 03:43, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

I agree that most Puerto Ricans consider themselves of mixed ancestry and studies have supported this belief [1]. The reason Puerto Ricans are said to have a white majority is because the answers for question #6 of the 2000 Census [2] ("What is this person's race"?) did not include Puerto Rican or even Latin. Since the right answer for the question was not found Puerto Ricans answered they were white beacuse the other options where really far from the truth. --Joelito 13:06, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Most Puerto Ricans are white, due to the constant spanish immgration long after the colony was turned over the the US , people who live on the Island will say the same also. the whole mixture thing is debated but many have said that Puerto Rican people living on the island still are of white or mostly white decent. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by XXGustaXX (talk • contribs) 20 Sep 2005.

white (mostly Spanish origin) 80.5%, black 8%, Amerindian 0.4%, Asian 0.2%, mixed and other 10.9% https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/rq.html#People changed the article because it is inaccurate to what the CIA really says they DO put mixed as a race. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.60.161.63 (talk • contribs) 20 Sep 2005.

I agree with the comments by XXGustaXX. The populations of Puerto Rico and Cuba were filled by numbers of Canary Islanders, Catalans, and other Spanish ethnic groups fleeing Spain before the Spanish-American War and the declaration of the First Republic. Due to mainly econoomic reasons, the lower economic classes on the island emigrated to the USA while the whte rulling classes remained due to attainment of wealth and property. Why would one leave the island to go to live in a mainland housing project as many new immigrants did so. That is why "nuyoricans" tend to be more mixed whereas Puerto Ricans on the island are more European. When Alba Reyes became the first Mr. Puerto Rican Universe of color to represent the island internationally, this made news. All her predecessors were fair skill, with clear European features. Cuba's population once had a huge abundance of Europeans, but due to the Cuban Revolution of 1959 the elites fled to the USA leaving the lower classes to hang and spend time with Fidel. Furthermore with Cuba's presence in Namibia, Angola, and Ethiopia, Fidel transported thousands of Africans orphans to Cuba, mainly to the Isle of Youth. Many mainland Cubans have viewed this as the "Africanization" of Cuba.

Also, please aware that Puerto Rico did not have the ecological resources to support a sugar plantation economy like Jamaica, Hispaniola, and Cuba. Water and rivers are needed for the irrigration of sugar. There are really no navegable rivers on the island as most rivers tend to be streams. --XLR8TION 20:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

External links

I was recently looking at the list of external links on the Puerto Rico article and comparing it with the external links from other countries' articles and Puerto Rico's is way too long. Where do we draw the line on which are worthy of keeping and which are just propaganda or advertising?. I believe advertising links are unworthy of being in an encyclopedia.

I propose that only official sites be kept in the external links section. If no objections are drawn I will proceed the deletion/cleanup process.--Joelito 17:46, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Cjrs 79 21:42, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

Religion

Since there is apparently differnet views over Puerto Rican religion I have decided to start this talk.

My opinion on the matter is that Puerto Rico is in its majority Roman Catholic. I believe that many people are trying to promote their own beliefs by creating paragraphs on religions in the main article. Some are even bold enough to state that their religion and not the Roman Catholic is a majority.

Also is there a need to have paragraphs for small religions in the main Puerto Rico article? Shouldn't this be mentioned in a sub-article titled Religion in Puerto Rico? From what I see the majority of the religion portion of the article is dedicated to minor religions while the major religion is mentioned almost as a side note.

Finally, I urge everyone to remember that this is an encyclopedia, and as such only facts should be written. If no proof or reference can be found to back up a claim it should not be posted in ANY article. Joelito 18:27, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Second. Couldn't have said it better myself.Gator1 19:09, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Just see the facts on religious change in Latin America, and do provide an independent scientific poll to prove Catholics are still in the majority! The only poll I know of, by Pablo Ramos, got 38% Catholic, over 50% Evangelical (The San Juan Star, April 12, 1998). Are there independent ways to verify? For example, only 20% of first marriages are Catholic ceremonies, according to El Visitante, the Catholic paper. I did not think it fair to question my objectivity; in debates, ad hominem arguments are improper. AAG 21 oct 05.

  • I will still question your objectivity because you still haven't posted a source we can verify. Particularly useful for this would be an internet source. Furthermore only one poll claims that protestants are a majority over catholics (while the CIA Factbook and all other resources state the contrary) and trends in Latin America usually don't correlate with trends in Puerto Rico . Finally, 20% of first marriages being Catholic says little about the number of Catholics in the island. Joelito 13:01, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Roman Catholics remain as a wide majority in Puerto Rico. Protestant church is growing but is not the main church, also recent interest in Eastern religion has been noticeable with the first visit of the Dalai Lama (2004) to Puerto Ricovertical123 02:59, 27 Nov 2005 (UTC)

A non-sovereign Nation

Puerto Rico has all the atributes of a Nation: common language, common history and religion, a strong identity as puertoricans, a rich literature with poets and writers that wrote about 'being puertorican' in their stories and poems. Puerto Rico had all of this 200 years before the US invasion in 1898. When the US took power of Puerto Rico and Cuba, who were the last colonies of Spain, both were young nations already. One got it's indpendence and the other remained a colony until 1952. With the constitution of Estado Libre Asociado in 1952, Puerto Rico gained self government and entered voluntarily ,thru a plebiscite, in a political association with US that it is still debated today. vertical123 01:09, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC)

For quick reference: International Olympic Committee, National Olympic teams of the Americas, National Olympic team of Puerto Rico : http://www.olympic.org/uk/organisation/noc/index_uk.asp?id_assoc=9 --vertical123 02:09, 14 Jan 2006 (UTC)

Yes Puerto Rico is a non sovereign nation with a very unique culture (that is influenced by both U.S and Latin American influence) but having an Olympic team doesn't stop you from being a colony, and it should not be used as tool to inspire chauvinistic patriotism and fear of status change, or to hide the fact that it still is a territory under the plenary powers of congress, which happens quite a bit during election time.

Chief of State

I am very sorry to say this but, the chief of state has, and MUST be listed in Puerto Rico under The President of the United States: George W. Bush, you cannot change that fact, as quoted from the CIA World Factbook:

"Executive branch: chief of state: President George W. BUSH of the US (since 20 January 2001) head of government: Governor Anibal ACEVEDO-VILA (since 2 January 2005)"

Link: https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/rq.html

I do understand that from the above discussion how Puerto Rican's, Guam and other US Territory residents feel about the way who controls the country, but you cannot change real facts by giving YOUR own personal touches and expressions. Sorry guys this is an online encyclopedia which does present facts and not made up by people who feel like it can't be true by posting their own views to make themselves feel better, if you want Puerto Rico to be without a Chief of State then please make your own website as you wish, but please do not mislead people into your own personal views.

Please do not remove it from the table, as this would cause a revert war, I am going to report this article as disputed if it does get reverted, Thanks! - K.

Here we go again. It is not about how we personally feel. We are a teritory of the US, and our relationship with the president of the US is the same as the relationship of the president with any state of the union. How many times do we have to explain this? How many times do we need to discuss it? Please sign your comments... Cjrs 79 22:11, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

States do not include the president as chief of state.. why should Puerto Rico include it? In no document, constitution or law does it name the president of the US as chief of state of any teritory.. nowhere... Cjrs 79 22:50, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that there are two choices: use a COUNTRY infobox like those for independent nations (Jamaica, Cuba, etc.) or a STATE infobox for subdivisions of a country (like Hawaii, Florida, etc.) The COUNTRY infobox is now used on the page, and if it remains, then the President of the United States should be indicated - otherwise the page would be misleading the reader into thinking that Puerto Rico is an independent nation. If however, it would be inconsistent to indicate the President of the U.S. on the Puerto Rico page when the same is not done for the 50 states, then the COUNTRY infobox should be replaced with a STATE infobox, which only indicates a governor. Denvoran 22:55, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, well what do we have here? It seems that even the "CIA" World Facts makes mistakes. Anyway what can you expect from the CIA. They even sumed up the complete history of Puerto Rico in one paragraph. First of all, they forgot to mention that when Puerto Rico was invaded, it was already a "nation" with its own language, culture and traditions which Puerto Ricans til this day refuse to give up. Second, they state that American citizenship was "granted" to the Puerto Ricans. I believe that granted means that the Puerto Ricans asked for it, when the truth is that it was imposed upon them (Puerto Ricans had no say in the matter) by the Jones Act of 1917 with the intention of drafting the men to serve in WW1. Puerto Rico is a commonweatlh associated to the United States, therefore President Bush is not our president nor our chief of state. He is not our president because Puerto Ricans are not allowed to vote in the elections and he is the President of the "United States" nor is he our chief of state because Puerto Rico is not a "state". Nor is English our language, or the Star Spangled Banner our national anthem or the American flag our flag. I suggest that "K" study our constitution or history or at least check out other websites before relying on one website.

Another thing, what's the big deal about the infobox? Is there an infobox for a commonwealth? If so then that would be O.K. However, since there isn't and since Puerto Rico is a nation (according to the definition of nation and according to the United Nations) and since it isn't a "state" of the United States, and as I stated before President Bush is not the president of Puerto Rico, then let the infobox stay as country. Unlike Hawaii and Florida, Puerto Rico is a nation which may someday gain its independence. Thank you

(Oh don't forget continous posting of false or misinformed information is considered vandalizing) Tony the Marine 06:05, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Bitterness...
Anyway, in some ways Puerto Rico and the District of Columbia are in the same boat. Using your argument, President Bush is not the President of Washingtonians because they do not vote for that office either. (Imagine that - the president of a country is not the president of the residents of its capital city.) Nonetheless, he is the President of the United States - a republic which includes 50 states, a federal district, and a handful of territories - Puerto Rico among them. A lot of peoples in history and, yes, in the present day are under the "rule" of leaders they did not elect. Is it fair? no. Is it right? no. But it was and is reality, and an encyclopedia should reflect reality as closely as possible, and not be slanted toward a certain point of view of "how things should be". Other realities that should be reflected in this article are that English is in use and is an official language in Puerto Rico and that the flag of the United States of America is flown all over the island, and not just over the isolated doors of an embassy or consulate, as is the case in places that are not part of the U.S.
As for the infobox, it can and should be amended to more appropriately reflect the status of Puerto Rico and not use the format that is used for independent countries.
Finally, there is a movement in Hawaii to restore its independence, and Florida was actually part of a nation - the Confederate States of America - that once fought for independence. So with that and my first point about D.C., it seems that Puerto Rico isn't so special after all... Denvoran 07:31, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Don't even dare to compare Puerto Rico with Washington D.C., unlike Washington D.C. we are a "nation" that was invaded. We have a governor not a president. Spanish is our official language not English. Not even the Federal Government of the U.S. has adopted English as the official language of the United States. The flag of the U.S. is flown on federal buildings, but the Puerto Rican flag is the offical flag of our people. That's why my people always carry their flag in thier cars and everywhere. Denvoron, do your homework and some people may get offended when the delicate subject of Puerto Rican politics is discussed. Another thing don't insinuate that I'm bitter, that's rude on your behave, I'm proud to be a Puerto Rican. Tony the Marine 08:00, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

It appears that anything I write will elicit an angry response, but here I go anyway...
Please note, "Tony the Marine" (a military officer of the United States of America?), I wrote in some ways Puerto Rico is like the District of Columbia - and I meant the situation that the respective residents do not vote for the U.S. President - and nothing else. Why do you use quotation marks around the word "nation"? Is it because Puerto Rico is not a nation in the sense that others are...? Yes, Puerto Rico has a governor, and it is part of the United States - which has a president. If you hate the English language so much, why are you using it? I have seen the flag of the United States flown all over the place in Puerto Rico, and not just on federal buildings. "Your people" can be proud of who they are, but it is their choice to be offended or not when a fact is stated - I have no control over how others decide to react to whatever I contribute to Wikipedia. I'm sorry if I incorrectly assumed that you are bitter, but isn't it rude on your behalf to tell me to "[not] even dare" , to "do [my] homework", to "[not] insinuate". I haven't told you to do anything! Denvoran 17:20, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
This is all irrelevant. Whether Puerto Rico is autonomous, independent, or not autonomous is really irrelevant here. What is relevant is that there is not such thing as a President of Puerto Rico while there is a Governor of Puerto Rico. But in the interests of maintaining neutrality and accuracy, please note that you are confusing nationhood with statehood. While the Puerto Rican people may be classified as a nation, Puerto Rico is clearly not a sovereign state. The foreign and defense affairs of PR are clearly the responsibility of the United States. When a foreign head of state is to visit PR, there is no such thing as a state visit in San Juan. There are no embassies in PR, only consulates. The President of the United States is still "the President" in PR since PR is clearly US territory. An infobox on Washington DC would likewise carry the name of its mayor, not the POTUS. However, on the other hand, I don't think WikiProject U.S. states should apply here because there is real autonomy. A good way to see whether an entry should go by WikiProject Countries or a domestic-centered WikiProject is whether it has its own CIA factbook entry and internet TLD.--Jiang 08:34, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Bush is not listed here because he is President of the United States, not President of Puerto Rico. We only list local level officials in all entries, whether this be a head of state of a sovereign state, or a governor of a dependency. For example, Queen Elizabeth II is not listed in Bermuda because she is merely "Queen in Bermuda" as Bermuda is a crown dependency of the United Kingdom and she is sovereign in Bermuda because of her status of Queen of the UK, but she is listed in Canada because she is "Queen of Canada" as her realms are all considered seperate kingdoms on equal status with the UK. Likewise, President Bush is merely "the President" in PR, but not "the President" of PR. This is done for every other country that is not a sovereign state. --Jiang 06:29, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

The exclusion of George W. Bush from the infobox is not meant to imply that PR is not part of the US, not any more than the listing of San Juan as the capital and the listing of the population as 3,916,632 instead of 297,700,000 is meant to imply that PR is not part of the US. This is an entry on Puerto Rico, not the United States. If the concern is over whether the US maintains sovereignty, then that should be addressed in the lead section, not by adding irrelevant entries in the infobox. This is simply following wikipedia convention. --Jiang 07:03, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

  • You know, I think that the best thing would be to create a new infobox for territories, commonwealths and such. I mean the whole discussion really has to do with the proper use of the infobox. Denvoron, I have nothing against you, you do make valid points, I guess it all depends on the perspective of the issue. No, I don't hate English, it is my first language, however it just isn't even an official language in the United States (by law) or some states, for ex. Arizona, that's all. Another thing Puerto Rico was a nation with it's own language, customs, traditions, political structure, currency and autonomy in 1898 when it was invaded even though it wasn't independent. Yes, once a Marine always a Marine. However, I realize that the real issue is about the infobox more then anything. Any thoughts?. Tony the Marine 18:45, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
    • I agree with Tony. Puerto Rico is not an independent country, nor is it a state of the USA. It has status similar to England Scotland and Wales in the United Kingdom and also similar to Native American Indian Tribes in Continental USA, which are also called "nations." Many nations in the British Commonwealth, such as Canada have relationships with Britain quite differnt from that of Puerto Rico to the USA, with respect to how much they are governed by the mother country, and how much independence they have. User:AlMac|(talk) 04:34, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

First of all we should be using a State infobox or like others said we should create a commonwealth/territory infobox, since Puerto Rico is part of the United States and not its own country (that is fact), I do suggest you guys to compare (the infobox) of the other US Territories like Guam, Northern Mariana Islands, American Samoa and others. Please look at their infoboxes why do they state that there is a "Chief of State", how come Puerto Rico doesn't have it?

Plus Tony the Marine please do not say ALL of the people of Puerto Rico or buildings do not fly the US flag, since that is a flat out lie, you cannot represent the majority of Puerto Rican's, it looks like you are the 10% left that belive that, sorry... game over. I live here and I see the US flag every day, and everwhere I look, go outside and take a look at all of the stores, buildings, universities, goverment buildings, even inside the governors office, peoples cars, they have the US flag and they are flown proudly around the island. So please do not say that you are proud to be Puerto Rican since you are showing the oposite of yourself. Thanks! -- Guest

  • First of all K or Guest or whatever name you wish to use (since you use various names) don't get personal with me on this issue and call me a lair! I reafirm that not all Puerto Ricans display the American flag and I do not mean that out of disrespect. Let me tell you that I served and fought for the United States and for the flag. Did You? You're making this into a political issue and I'm stating the things the way they are. Another thing who do you think you are to imply that I am not proud to be a Puerto Rican? I have done more for the Puerto Ricans in Wiki then you will ever do. Don't insult me. I'm out of this dicussion, but let it be known that I'm not a vende patria, are you? Tony the Marine 23:51, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
"Chief of State" is not the name of an official title. It is a CIA World Factbook creation. If you look at every country article, you will see official titles being used. Ive removed the entries. Refer to Bermuda, Anguilla, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Montserrat, Gibraltar, Turks and Caicos Islands, Falkland Islands, Saint Helena, Pitcairn Islands, British Indian Ocean Territory, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands, and British Antarctic Territory. Nowhere is Elizabeth II listed as "Chief of State". It's always the local head of government that is listed. The State infobox is inappropriate because certain entries (eg admission into the Union) do not apply, while others (eg TLDs) are no available.--Jiang 02:22, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Jiang, Puerto Rico is not "its own" country, it is a US Territory, how many times I have to repeat this again and again. Plus Tony the Marine, Puerto Rico's official languages are Spanish and English, and NOT Spanish as you stated and affirmed to other wikipedia users. -- Guest 02:26, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

"a country is a geographical territory" (refer to the article definition). It is not a sovereign state. The two are not synonymous. PR can be considered a country, and the infobox should be applied following wikipedia convention to apply such boxes to fully autonomous entities and dependencies.--Jiang 02:30, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

There is no way you can escape this issue without presenting facts with credible information. Why is nobody paying attention to the other articles that are US Territories too? Looks like only Puerto Rico is being eyeballed by you guys. Does the IMF, World Bank, UN, and other organizations classify us as a soverign state? No. Get your facts straight and show it to us... -- Guest 02:35, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I have already removed the fake title "Chief of State" from the other article. We are apply wikipedia:WikiProject Countries here, not "WikiProject Sovereign states". Whether PR is a sovereign state is irrelevant.--Jiang 02:37, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Looks like you don't have credible information to show us, since you are saying that this issue is irrelevant because you participate in that project. So what? Do I care? NO... I suggest removing Puerto Rico from the WikiProject Contries, since we aren't sovereign country/territory or whatever you call it. I am not turning this into a political issue, but like many times I have mentioned show us REAL facts and not asusumptions made by you. -- Guest 02:41, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

you're still beating around a dead horse. Decisions in Wikipedia are made through community consensus. The consensus, as demonstrated through convention lasting since at least late 2002/early 2003, is to apply the template to all countries, regardless of whether they are sovereign states. Is French Polynesia a state? Is Hong Kong? If you believe that the template does not apply, then you have to explain why it does not apply and persuade all of us that it does not apply. The burden is not on me to prove that PR is a state (I never claimed it to be), but whether certain conventions need to be followed. Why does PR deserve a deviation from the established standards?--Jiang 02:47, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Well since I am the person who first eliminated the President from the Infobox I guess I must at least have a say in this. Official Languages: Spanish and English. Infobox: Never says PR is a nation, clearly states PR is a territory. Yes, it is a country infobox. Big Deal. President? Irrelevant. Puerto Ricans do not vote for him. Puerto Ricans vote for a governor, ultimate power resides in the Congress of the USA. Only real power of the President lies in the armed forces. CIA Factbook objective? No. The CIA obviuosly has an agenda.

US Flags? Yes ? Proudly? Subjective. Everywhere? Exageration. In goverment buildings? Of course, PR is a territory after all. In universities? Only in administrative buildings of public universities. In cars? Yes. 40% or more favor statehood. In stores? Haven't seen one in Sears yet.

Has this been debated before? Yes. Next time please study the history of the problem so as the same errors are not commited again.

Finally for whom do you think wikipedia is written for? Peronally I write in wikipedia so that my kids(my students) and their kids can learn a little about every topic. I don't write so that people spend endless hours debating trivial matters. I write so that kids have an easy to access medium from which they can begin to learn. They will make up opinions on each subject in due time, as have many of us. Please stop the political, ideological, senseless debates and concentrate on writing/adding good educational articles. Why not write a Culture of Puerto Rico article or a paragraph on transportation in Puerto Rico instead of debating whether there is a chief of state or not. Or whether the infobox is appropiate for a territory. SO, LETS GET TO WRITING Joelito 05:33, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Guest is just a PNP supporter..what could be more point of view than that? His statement that American flags are everywhere is ridiculous. If it were like that, 60% of Puerto Ricans wouldn't be voting against statehood (including Democrats and I0ndependistis). If not, why would people be screaming Tito! Tito! and not Hopkins! Hopkins!!

We have no vote as far as the President of the United States. We do not have a President. Get over it, Guest.

Antonio Boricua =para Siempre Martin

Ummm I have to points to make. Firstly, the people in the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Bermuda, Jamiaca etc. do not vote for the monarch, nor do Belgians, Swedes, Danes, the Dutch, Spaniards, Monegasques, Norweigens or the people of Luxembourg and Liechtenstein, yet they have all accepted their monarchs as the chief of state. And Denvoran, the District of Columbia does vote in presidential elections as of the 23rd ammendment to the constitution, DC gets exactly as many votes as if it were a state, and it has since 1961, get your facts straight. And there is no President of Puerto Rico, the Chief of State of Puerto Rico, is the president of the United States, whomever it is at the time. It is far different then Canada, where Elizabeth is the Queen of Canada, George Bush is not, the president of puerto Rico, simply their chief of state. Mac Domhnaill 20:24, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

"chief of state of Puerto Rico" is not an official title or position, ex officio, de facto, or otherwise. puerto rico is not a state. it cannot have a "chief of state".--Jiang 23:52, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

The Head of Government in Puerto Rico is the Governor and it's official title is Governor, this is clearly established in the constitution (1952). The national flag is the Puerto Rico flag. The US flag represents a political association as much as the EU flag is represented in all countries of the European Union next to the national flag and regional or province flag. Puerto Rico is recognized as a country by the UN (see:http://unstats.un.org/unsd/cdbdemo/cdb_da_itypes_cr.asp?country_code=630) with 630 as the country code (Palestine < named as: Occupied Palestinian Territory> is another non sovereign state listed as a country by the UN as of 2005). --Vertical123 02:03, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Puerto Rico is part of the United States, and the head of government of the United States is the President. This is fact, whether one agrees with it or not. The relationship between the countries of the European Union with each other and with Brussels is entirely different than the relationship between Puerto Rico and Washington. Each member of the European Union maintains its own sovereign government, is responsible for its own defense, maintains its own borders, issues its own passports, has its own postal service, etc. None of these are true of Puerto Rico. Just because the United Nations assigns a "code" to Puerto Rico does not make it an independent nation. And even so, no single country recognizes Puerto Rico as an independent nation, has set up diplomatic relations with it, or sends an ambassador to Puerto Rico, etc. In contrast, each member of the EU has full representation in Brussels, sends ambassadors to each of the other member countries, and recognizes the others as independent countries. As far as I understand, each EU member controls the extent to which it relegates powers to Brussels (e.g. they can decide whether or not to adopt the Euro currency) and each member could unilaterally withdraw from the Union. This is not so with Puerto Rico, as only Congress exercises control over the relationship between the federal government and Puerto Rico, and Puerto Rico could not unilaterally withdraw from the United States. Finally, Puerto Rico is not Palestine. Though some might argue otherwise, Puerto Rico is not "occupied". There is no controlled "border" between Puerto Rico and the mainland United States; indeed, travel between the two is unrestricted and, of course, requires no passport. About half of the population of Puerto Rico favors statehood, with only a small minority desiring independence - while Palestinians overwhelmingly demand independence from Israel.
Denvoran 19:21, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Puerto Rico is not part of the United States, the United States is the 50 states, 48 mainland and 2 outside mainland(alaska and hawaii) with the capital of the nation as a federated district. The federated states and their capital district cannot separate from the union and their self determination is not possible (they have no option for independence or commonwealth or association with another state),they are part of the US nation. Puerto Rico is not part of the US since it is recognized by the UN to have self government and to reach a compact of association with the US called Estado Libre Asociado in 1952 (this compact of association voluntarily concedes the US government sovergnty over some areas like inmigration and self defense among others). It is also recognized by International Law and the US government that Puerto Rico has the right to self determination since it has not adquired full sovereignty (only self government with a constitution). Palestine is also a non sovereign state which has observer status at the UN but it's self determination is also internationaly recognized.--Vertical123 22:15, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Puerto Rico is an associate member of the UN Economic Commission for Latin America (ECLA) as a non sovereign state.--Vertical123 11:35, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

The assertion that the States cannot separate from the Union is incorrect. The right to do so is guaranteed by the Constitution. Tomertalk 13:39, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, the federated states of the US and it's capital have no right to self determination. Can you please name the article of the US constitution that, as you say, guarantees separatism? (Let's not forget there was a Civil War fought in that nation.) .--Vertical123 11:00, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. I haven't really thought much about it since I was about 15 years old (which was longer ago than I care to think about)... found this while I was reading. It doesn't support my statement, but others might find it as interesting a read as I did... Tomertalk 23:49, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

International Community View

I have added a little more texture to this debate by editing the section that addressed Puerto Rico's status as a state in the international community by addressing UN discussions on point. I found that the description of the "jargon of international law" was a bit incomplete as written. The changes I have made might help to clarify why Puerto Rico's classification remains polemic. Similarly, I have discussed the referendums in more detail, since they are the staple of politics on the island, and help illustrate the barriers to reaching a consensus for deciding Puerto Rico's political status. HLS Group 3 04:54, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

For quick reference:UN Special Committee on Decolonization 6th & 7th Meetings:Special committee calls on United States to expedite Puerto Rico self-determination process http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2005/gacol3121.doc.htm "Reiterating that the Puerto Rican people constitute a Latin American and Caribbean nation that has its own unequivocal national identity, the Special Committee would call upon the United States Government to assume its responsibility to expedite a process that will allow the Puerto Rican people fully to exercise their inalienable right to self-determination and independence, in accordance with Assembly resolution 1514 (XV) and the resolutions and decisions of the Special Committee".--Vertical123 02:28, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

For quick reference: CIA factbook, countries with a constitution list (Puerto Rico is listed between Portugal and Qatar): [3].--Vertical123 01:00, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

The paragraph regarding resolution 753 I think is not true, after resolution 1514, Puerto Rico was put back on the lists of colonies.--24.152.251.248 07:47, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Proposed new opening

for discussion: The opening of this article ( ... Supporters of maintaining the status quo (i.e., Commonwealth status) insist that upon attaining this status, Puerto Rico entered into a voluntary association with the U.S. "in the nature of a compact", but opponents of Commonwealth disagree: according to them, Puerto Rico is no more than an unincorporated organized territory of the U.S., subject to the plenary powers of the United States Congress. According to several status polls, nearly half the population believes that Puerto Rico should join the United States as a state.) is not NPOV, it is not accurate since the constitution of Puerto Rico clearly states the relationship as a compact between the people of Puerto Rico and the United States ( official translation into english: Article 1 Section 1. The Commonwealth of Puerto Rico is hereby constituted. Its political power emanates from the people and shall be exercised in accordance with their will, within the terms of the compact agreed upon between the people of Puerto Rico and the United States of America.) This is not the opinion of a political group or ideology like the opening suggests. We can all argue whether this compact has been fully respected by the US or not, that is another story. I propose substituting this paragraph, my preference, with the name-history or meaning of Puerto Rico (from borikén to san juan to it's final name Puerto Rico) as it is standard opening in wikipedia articles or working with the current paragraph, not my preference but can work with it, into an accurate NPOV opening.--vertical 08:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not entirely clear on what you want to do here. If I'm reading it correctly, you want to change the current opening to say ... something other than what it says currently... but I'm not entirely clear on what you want to change it to. I agree it's currently inaccurate (although that's an entirely different animal from NPOV) and should be corrected, but what's this about borikén => sj? Tomertalk 07:06, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
If you look at Israel or Taiwan, to name 2 examples, there is no political 'controversy' as an opening, PR has a political theme in its opening(an inaccurate one). I am proposing some sentences that explain the origin of the name. Borikén or Borinquen was the name of Puerto Rico before the spaniards arrive, it is a taino word, after the spanish colonization the name of Puerto Rico was Isla de San Juan Bautista and it's capital was named Puerto Rico (english: rich port)...at the end, San Juan was named the capital and Puerto Rico became the name of the entire country.>User:Vertical12315:06, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the lead is odd. We're agreed on that. Do you have a proposal for what it should be changed to? I've got some ideas...look for them in a day or so... Tomertalk 10:53, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Anon users major edit

An anon user has proposed the following edit:

Demographic Controversy

Because Puerto Rico is part of the United States race is defined by the same way it is in the mainland United States by the US Office of Management and Budget. Due to racism in Puerto Rico a large number people who would be black/African American in the mainland US mark their US Census forms as white. The racial mixture of Africans and Europeans in Puerto Rico is almost the same as in the mainland United States. Unlike Halle Berry who has has one black parent and one white parent stated: "When I was younger, living in an all-black neighborhood the other kids thought I was better then them because of my light skin and straight hair, then we moved to an all-white neighborhood and that was a culture shock. I'd been used to being around all black kids?I'm black, I realized very early in my life that I wasn't going to be this mulatto stuck in the middle, not knowing if I'm black or white." http://www.dvdwolf.com/Biographies/B/Halle_Berry.html Many in Puerto Rico do not have a white and black parent and are very similar to the racial heritage of many black/African Americans in the mainland United States. Yet, a large number of Puerto Ricans will mark white on the US Census forms.

Puerto Rico

Official 2000 US Census has for the US territory of Puerto Rico

White 3,064,862 80.50%

Black or African American 302,933 8%

American Indian and Alaska Native 13,336 0.40%

Asian 7,960 0.20%

Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander 1,093 0%

Some other race 260,011 6.80%

Two or more races 158,415 4.20%

Total 3,808,610


http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAFFFacts?_event=Search&geo_id=&_geoContext=&_street=&_county=&_cityTown=&_state=04000US72&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010


Race

Source: U.S. Census Bureau, 2000 Census of Population, Public Law 94-171 Redistricting Data File. Updated every 10 years. http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/meta/long_68178.htm

Definition:

The concept of race as used by the Census Bureau reflects self-identification by people according to the race or races with which they most closely identify. These categories are sociopolitical constructs and should not be interpreted as being scientific or anthropological in nature. Furthermore, the race categories include both racial and national-origin groups. The racial classifications used by the Census Bureau adhere to the October 30,1997, Federal Register Notice entitled,"Revisions to the Standards for the Classification of Federal Data on Race and Ethnicity" issued by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB).

American Indian and Alaska Native. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America) and who maintain tribal affiliation or community attachment.

Oddly, 90% of all people from Mexico have American Indian origins. But, they do not maintain tribal affiliation or community attachment. This could be a major reason they are not classified as American Indian in the United States. It is the only race category on the US Census where a person must maintain their tribal affiliation or community attachment to be classified by the race they are. Mexico by race Population: 103,400,165 (July 2002 est.) Amerindian/mestizo (American Indian/Native American) 90% white 9% other 1%

White. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "White" or report entries such as Irish, German, Italian, Lebanese, Near Easterner, Arab, or Polish.

Black or African American. A person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "Black, African Am., or Negro," or provide written entries such as African American, Afro American, Kenyan, Nigerian, or Haitian.

Asian. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam. It includes "Asian Indian," "Chinese," "Filipino," "Korean," "Japanese," "Vietnamese," and "Other Asian."

Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Hawaii, Guam, Samoa, or other Pacific Islands. It includes people who indicate their race as "Native Hawaiian," "Guamanian or Chamorro," "Samoan," and "Other Pacific Islander."

Some other race. Includes all other responses not included in the "White", "Black or African American", "American Indian and Alaska Native", "Asian" and "Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander" race categories described above. Respondents providing write-in entries such as multiracial, mixed, interracial, Wesort, or a Hispanic/Latino group (for example, Mexican, Puerto Rican, or Cuban) in the "Some other race" category are included here.

Two or more races. People may have chosen to provide two or more races either by checking two or more race response check boxes, by providing multiple write-in responses, or by some combination of check boxes and write-in responses.


It has some obvious problems (POV, grammar to begin) and it has been removed. I do not beleive that it is vandalism and is clearly a good faith edit where the user put a lot of thought and hard work nto it. I think it should be discussed before all or any of it goes into the artcile, but it should not be wholesale reverted without discussion. Thoughts or edits?Gator (talk) 16:33, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Stop revertign adn start talking. Please.Gator (talk) 16:42, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Come over here and we can discuss your edits, and find a way to include them in the article. Banes 16:44, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok, you're not understanding how this is supposed to work. We are hear to discuss your edit and I ahve no doubt that we are all opened minded about your edit. It just neds to be discussed is all. What you ened to do is actually come here and talk with us about the edit. Why you think it shoudl be there. Why it's NPOV and all that. Putting a peer reviw tag and not saying a word is not the way to go. Thus, I have removed the tag adn willc ontinue to do so until you actually talk. No harsd feelings, you're clearly new here, but this is how it's done and w're willing to condider your edit, but it need sot be discussed and a consensus needs to be gained.Gator (talk) 16:58, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I was hoping that he would start the discussion, but I guess I will. The biggest probelm isee with the edit is that it's POV. The racism thign needs to go and the whole Halle berry thing is irrelvant. I think the basic controversy regarding how PRs c lassify themself and the defintional problems that arise is interesting and notable if ot dealt with somewhere else int eh article. In short, this needs to be edited down quite a bit but should be part fo the artcile in some shorter NPOV form.Gator (talk) 17:05, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, here's how I would edit down:

Demographic Controversy

Because Puerto Rico is part of the United States race is defined by the same way it is in the mainland United States by the US Office of Management and Budget. A large number people who would be black/African American in the mainland US mark their US Census forms as white. {[citation needed}}. The racial mixture of Africans and Europeans in Puerto Rico is almost the same as in the mainland United States.[citation needed].

Race

Official 2000 US Census has for the US territory of Puerto Rico:

White 3,064,862 80.50%

Black or African American 302,933 8%

American Indian and Alaska Native 13,336 0.40%

Asian 7,960 0.20%

Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander 1,093 0%

Some other race 260,011 6.80%

Two or more races 158,415 4.20%

Total 3,808,610

[4]

It's just a quick job, but maybe this?Gator (talk) 17:14, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

People should get to see how people that have almost the same European and African mixture are called white in Puerto Rico but, not in the mainland US.

This is interesting because if one is of a European mixed heritage of English or German or Irish and African, in the mainland US they are typically black. Especially when that mix took place a while back. But, for some reason if a person has a European Spanish mix with African suddenly in this US territory they are considered white.

Abolition of Slavery in Puerto Rico http://www.loc.gov/rr/hispanic/1898/slaves.html


On March 22, 1873, the Spanish National Assembly finally abolished slavery in Puerto Rico.

By that time many historical black colleges and university had already been founded in the mainland United States.

see map

http://wps.prenhall.com/wps/media/objects/264/270568/African_Slave_Trade.GIF

Thank you for commenting, but lease stop adding the peer review tag, it's not appropriate. Ok......not sure what your point is. Do you have comments on the edits I made to your edits. How do other people feel about this?

This info should be added under the demographic portion for Puerto Rico, because it is in fact inform that people talk about. NPR a while back talked about race issues in Puerto Rico.

  • First, Puerto Rico is not 'part of the US' (please see US supreme court insular area cases for more info),it is a Commonwealth associated to the US which is classified as an unincorporated teritory.

second,US census pop does not include PR, PR gov.uses the US census and it's use is highly controversial and the classification is a joke in Puerto Rico since PR is not an inmigrant nation the classification used by the US is totally out of touch with reality and only fits in US social structure . The US census is a dress that doesn't fit PR or any Latin American country since it ignores mixtures of races and goes by a historic segregationist view (White is white, Black is Black) , Latin America is basically a Mullato set of countries with different degrees of shades and racial mix. The terms WHITE, BLACK ,HISPANIC are terms used by the US government but outside of the US have different meanings and are looked in another context. Latin America's racial profile is one of mixed races and the shades are many, that is one reason why Colombia doesn't have a color profile in it's census. It is useless since there is no minority affirmative action and where the question is Colombian (a)y(b)No. The same thing happens in Puerto Rico where there is a homogenous ethnicity that goes from european spanish descent to taino indian to african all rolled up in one with many degrees and shades apart. If you understand this you understand demographics in Puerto Rico. Adding this paragraph is inaccurate,misses the point and is a US racial pov.--vertical 17:58, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Peurto Rico is part of the United States.

The US controls: interstate trade, foreign relations and commerce, customs, administration, control of air, land and sea, immigration and emigration, nationally and citizenship, currency, maritime laws, military service, military bases, army, navy and air force, declaration of war, constitionality of laws, jurisdictions and legal procedures, treaties, radio and television--communications, agriculture, mining and minerals, highways, postal system, Social Security, and other areas generally controlled by the federal government in the United States.

The major difference between Puert Rico and the 50 states are the local taxation system and exemption from the Internal Revenue Code, its lack of voting representaion in either the houses of the US Congess and US Senate, the ineligibility of Puerto Ricans to vote in the presidential elections and its lack of assignatioin of some revenues reserved for the states.

  • Please read the Constitution of Puerto Rico 1952, UN resolutions regarding Puerto Rico 1953 -present, read the Insular Cases (US Supreme Court cases regarding unincorporated territories including Commonwealth), read US Law 600. You are ignoring all of the basic facts. Your opinion in this matter is inaccurate.--vertical 19:02, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

The Tren Urbano

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tren_Urbano

In 1993, the Federal Transit Administration (FTA) selected the Tren Urbano as one of the Turnkey Demonstration Projects under the Intermodal Surface Transportation Efficiency Act of 1991. During 1996 and 1997, seven design-build contracts were awarded for different segments of the Tren Urbano Phase 1 system.

The construction project was plagued by delays, contractual disputes between the government and companies involved in the undertaking, as well as investigations into possible mismanagement of funds. The project cost has been estimated around USD $2.25 billion. The rail system was officially inaugurated on December 17, 2004.

The US Bureau of the Census does do the Census for Puerto Rico

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAFFFacts?_event=Search&geo_id=&_geoContext=&_street=&_county=&_cityTown=&_state=04000US72&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010

  • Puerto Rico is not 'part of the US'

This is not debatable, it is a fact.

see :the insular cases, which are US supreme court cases, decided that unincorporated territories belong (since they are a non sovereign) but are not part of the US. See Downes v. Bidwell (1901) and Balzac v. Puerto Rico (1922) Also Puerto Rico has the right to self determination recognized by the US and United Nations.

To say that Puerto Rico is part of the US is to ignore basic facts from the US form of government and also ignores the political status of Puerto Rico since 1952. This issue is a yes or no. No gray areas.--vertical 18:46, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

The insular cases merely established the legal precedent that fulll constitutional rights do not automatically extend to all areas under American control. That is differne then saying that territories were not a "part fo the U.S." whatever that means. It just means that, in this case, PR is not completely a part from the U.S. the same way Ohio is. YES, there is a gray area, this is hardly black and white, because what does one mean when they say that PR is not "part of the U.S.?" People attach different meanings to that phrase. PR is clearly less than a state and is therefore, not completely "part of the U.S." but that does not mean that is can't be partially part of the US and partially outide the U.S. (it's included withint eh jurisdiction of the U.S. First Cuircuit Court of Appeals, has its own U.S. District Court, federal law applies to the islands, those born their are U.S. citizens...etc. These line of cases establish this gray area. It's not even close ot blakc and white, that's a fact.Gator (talk) 19:01, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Vertical clearly have a strong persoanl POV on this, so there's no point in arguing.Gator (talk) 19:06, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

It is not my opinion, it is the US Supreme Court opinion and the one that rules over the Puerto Rico-US relationship. It is clear, it is simple, this is not open for interpretation. US is the 50 states and the district of columbia. The unincorporated territories including the Commonwealth belong (since they are not sovereign) but are NOT PART OF the US. Read the US supreme court cases. This is a fact.--vertical 19:12, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I've read those cases, they do NOT establish that PR is not a "part of the U.S." they merely decline to extend all contitutioanl protections to PR automatically. You're misinterpreting the case law, somethign that I,a s an attorney, am frequently accused of doing. It's clear that by your defintion of "part of the U.S." PR is not a part of it, but for me and many others, the definitions of "part of the U.S." is a little broader than yours, making PR is a gray area. PR is clearly not independent (which is why you and the members of your party are pushing for that) but are not a state either. They're a territory,a commonwealth (whatever that means) which puts them in this gray area. Not black, not white, but gray.Gator (talk) 19:30, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok, Let me explain to you the way constitutional law professors explain this to undergraduate students, since it can get confussing if you are not familiar with PR-US relationship laws. Your hands are part of you, your ears are part of you, your legs are part of you, your watch belongs to you, your earing belongs to you, your nose is part of you. part of something that forms a body vs possesions that belong to you. The body is the US (50 states with a federated capital) the possesions are the territories (some have no autonomy like Palmira Atol in the pacific which is incorporated, others have a smalll amount like Guam which is an unincorporated territory by an organic act also Virgin Islands which are not self governing and then we have unincorporated territories that are not ruled by an organic act , have a high degree of autonomy,self governing and the relationship is agreed upon a compact or treaty like in the case of Puerto Rico which recognized by the UN as self governing states with a constitution).--vertical 19:22, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Trust me, con law professors are not Jesus Christ and not all con law professors (I hope) would explain somthing as compelx as this as simple as the way you put it. That's just one way of defining a "part of the U.S." and it's a bit simplistic and narrow. It's clearly not the way the US Supreme Court definesit or it would have no jurisdiction over the islands and would deal with disputes re: PR the same way they do with the Netherlands. PR is in a gray area. Some possesions andterritories are more to the black side adn some are more to the white side, but it's still gray. Stop trying to simplify this. Oh and the UN doesn't determine what is and is not a "part of the U.S." so that holds little to no water.Gator (talk) 19:30, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

This is determined by the US GOVERNMENT... you need to do a lot of reading. This is not an opinion, this is not a point of view. This is a fact whether it fits or not your point of view or mine.--vertical 19:40, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok ok, we'l just never agree. You say white and I say gray. We'll never convince each other so, have a nice day.Gator (talk) 19:43, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I've named verifiable sources of the Insular Areas that still rule to this day. I suggest you read again Downes v. Bidwell (1901) and Balzac v. Puerto Rico (1922). United States is the 50 states and the capital district (that is why they do not have recognized SELF DETERMINATION like dependencies have, they are part of the Union). This is not a gray area, it is what it is. Puerto Rico is a non sovereign state and the right to self determination is recognized by the US and by the United Nations. Puerto Rico belongs since it is not part of and it is not sovereign (US insular cases)--vertical 20:03, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

What more is there to say, I said we would never agree and yet you continue to argue and push your POV. Let it go.Gator (talk) 20:06, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

The point of this article addition is to show the demographic issues in Puerto Rico. The US Bureau of the Census does do the official Census for Puerto Rico, because the island is not a country and is under full US control.

The US Census shows a very huge white population on that island. Yet, if these people spoke English and had the same European African mix, there would be no debate that the majority of the islands population is black/African American. But, just because they speak Spanish suddenly the population on that island is confused to what race they are.

As far as the Halle Berry thing, it is not irrelevant. It is very relevant. It shows how odd Puerto Rico is when it comes to race vs. language. How does language in Puerto Rico determine that one is not black/African American? Where on the mainland US if Puerto Ricans live there and spoke English as a first language they would be black and during legal segregation in the United States these same Puerto Ricans would have had to ride in the back of a bus and go to black public schools.

That article should be added to the Demographics portion of this Wikipedia. Because of the fact that the article currently posted is not a full truth.

This is what Wikipedia says so far

During the 2000 US Census Puerto Ricans were asked to identify which racial category with which they personally identify. 95.8% answered with only one choice. The breakdown is as follows: [12]. 80.5% described themselves as "white"; 8% described themselves as "Black"; and only 0.4% described themselves as "Native American." These #s demonstrate that racial terms are relative, not absolute, and highlight the potential for confusion when they are used in a definitive and distinct way.

That statement alone says there is an issue that people who are actually black are listing themselves as white on the US Census. There's no why in the world that the US teritory of Puerto Rico is 80.5% white. Anyone who travels there can see that with their own eyes. They look the same as typical light skin African Americans, who even have wavy hair too.

On second thought, the article adequately covers the same issues without being POV (with the same statistics) I say leave the entire thing out.Gator (talk) 21:29, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

The Anon. article should not be incorporated into the demographic section. Also, your racial statements ,and I quote Gator:if these people spoke English and had the same European African mix, there would be no debate that the majority of the islands population is black/African American. But, just because they speak Spanish suddenly the population on that island is confused to what race they are-end of quote, reflect a huge ignorance of the entire history of the spanish caribbean, latin america and therefore Puerto Rico. This is an international project, to view demographics from a limited US racial point of view is POV. We are not here to distort the facts to accomodate an ideological or racial agenda.User:Vertical123

Hold your horses buddy. I NEVER said that and DO NOT insuate that I am a racist! Check again, do better factr checking before opening your mouth and STOP throwing race around and putting things in people's mouths! That may have been in the edit( that I did NOT write and I am arguing that it should now not be included), but those were never my words and I think you knew that. You're out of control. Gator (talk) 13:25, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Not at all. Spanish and Portuguese slavery in many ways was more harsh than the English and French system. They Spanish and Portugese were known to work their salves till the death and then restock. Like the English and the French. They also forced their slaves to speak a European language, this one being Spanish. They also forced their slaves to become Christians and to drop their African religions. Like the English and the French, the Spanish also had offspring by they African slave women.

Oddly though the former English colonies and the former French colonies ended slavery sooner than did the former Spanish and Portuguese colonies. Brazil abolished slavery in 1888 and Abolition of Slavery in Puerto Rico was 1873.

There were a few articles written that talked about not many people wanted to be black in Puerto Rico. If I find them I'll let you read them.

Both Vertical and Gator have valid points, however, let's stick with facts. I have a question for Gator? How can you suggest that Vertical is an independist? Vertical has not declared to be one so therefore this is a point of view by your part. For all we know, Vertical could be a PPD voter, PPDs' do not want statehood nor independentism. I will say my experience as Puerto Rican, I left Puerto Rico in 1989, and there was no racial division between Whites and Blacks at the time, and trust me, just look at Menudo's photo, there are two VERY blond, caucasian Puerto Ricans there, so there are very Caucasian and very Black people, not just half and half like some have suggested here. But no division as far as I know. About Latino Blacks in the United States classifying themselves as "White", where did that come from? That should be disputed. There are no official numbers as to what percentage of Black Latinos rank themselves as White in the census. Furthermore, all Black Latinos Ive met in the States identify themselves as Latino, or Hispanic, and when I signed up for college, I read the phrase "Black Hispanic" under the "race" question. I hope this helps end all further discussions about this controversial issue. Both of you make good points as far as the political status, however. Let's keep the article to facts and not change it until Puerto Rico's status is resolved later in 2006. God bless you both! Antonio Sancho Panza Martin

Logical assumptions based on contribution history and POV re: PR's status. Doesn't take a genius to put 2 and 2 together.Gator (talk) 13:25, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Do you really think the status will be resolved in 2006? I'm rather skeptical on that... Somehow, I doubt we'll see even the first status referendum (change of status: yes/no) this year. The declaration by the presidential task force was too non-committal in my opinion. —Nightstallion (?) 11:31, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Gator, most PPD voters are absolutely against statehood yet not for independence...Vertical can say that and still be a member of the PPD. About Nightstallion's question, I don't know if the status will be resolved in 2006, but I sure hope it it resolved soon, and Puerto Ricans are granted what they vote for. Antonio Pshychochic Martin

[Copyright material removed; provide a link. Short quotes may qualify as fair use, but this is unacceptable in Wikipedia. Guettarda 15:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC) ]

One thing you have to bear in mind here is that race is a social construct. American ideas about race are still heavily influenced by the "one drop rule" - people with trivial African ancestry can be African American. Similarly, while in Jamaica mixed Indians are considered Indian, while in Trinidad they are not. I had a friend who was "white" in Trinidad and "black" in Canada (but taken for Cuban in Miami). In census data, race is based on self-identification. That self-identification is based in part on how they are perceived by their communities. It isn't the job of any outsider to tell people "what race they really are" (except in places like apartheid-era South Africa or Nazi-era Germany). Guettarda 15:55, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Activists Shine Light On Racism

By Iván Román Orlando Sentinel

October 21, 2001

......With this tribute to their African ancestors on Columbus Day -- the commemoration of the clash of two worlds -- the Puerto Rican Alliance Against Racism began its Journey Against Racism 2001, a month of events to educate people about racism that many here deny even exists.

Some would call it a seemingly impossible task -- to snap out of denial a society that intentionally or unwittingly cloaks its prejudice under the guise of extolling the indigenous, African and Spanish racial mix that molded the Caribbean.

.......Having 81 percent of the people in this multiracial society call themselves "white" on the 2000 U.S. census is but one signal of the level of denial. Some claim it may just be a rejection of the rigid racial categories that have shaped U.S. history and society.......

......But the activists think otherwise. Some joined the alliance because their own mates denied their race or heritage. Some hate that most students in Loiza, the town with the largest proportion of black people, need special academic help. The area is one of Puerto Rico's poorest,........

Here's a link to the full article

http://www.puertorico-herald.org/issues/2001/vol5n43/ActivistsShineLight-en.shtml


Guettarda, Puerto Rico is part of the United States. This island has never been in idependent nations since Europeans arrived there. It was only independent when Native Americans lived there.

Puerto Rico was ceded to the US in 1898 as a result of the Spanish-American War. This was after '400 years of colonial rule that saw the indigenous Native American population nearly exterminated and after African enslaved people were brought to the island as free labor.

Puerto Ricans were granted United States citizenship in 1917.

Popularly elected governors have served this US territory since 1948.

So, in fact since Puerto Rico is part of the United States its people are the same as those in the rest of the United States. People from Puerto Rico are more ethnicly and culturely alike to the mainland US than what Hawaii was when it was the Territory of Hawaii. In In 1900 Hawaii was granted self governance.

On July 6, 1898 Hawaii was formally annexing as a United States territory. Because they were born in a United States territory, they were legal U.S. citizens.

Hawaiian's spoke Hawaiian. Puerto Ricans speak a European language (Spanish). Hawaii was populated by Native People (Pacific Islander) and later white Europeans and the later Asians.

The population of Puerto Rico is made up of former black African enslaved people, white Europeans and Native Americans.

The population of the mainland US was mostly made up of black African enslaved people, white Europeans and Native Americans until the early 1900s. Mainland US spoke in its history only European languages after the country was formed (English, Spanish and French). Today the main language is English.

So, if a person is black in the US they should be black in Puerto Rico. Not, white as the US Census shows.

3,064,862 (80.50% White ) of the island's 3,808,610 say they are white.

But, you are right. No one can tell a person what race they want to be. With that said. What if Almost all of the black/African Americans said they were white?

Currently the 2004 estimate from the US Bureau of the Census says there are 34,772,381 Black/African American living in the US. What if 30 million of them say they are white on the Census. Does this change the fact that their genetics show they are black?

It would be interesting to see what percentage of Puerto Rico's population would be black if genetics were used.

I think the edit Demographic Controversy should be added to the article on Puerto Rico, because it is a truth that's not talked about. When someone comes to Wikipedia they come to read important facts on subjects. If someone were to do a report on Puerto Rico and use Wikipedia as the current article is written. Those people would not see the Demographic Controversy that exist in this US territory.

So, who will let me know to what extent this edit can be added to the main article on Puerto Rico?

Feedback on adding the "Demographic Controversy section

Well, despite having "racial' comments beign wrongly attribuited to me, I've expressed my opinion as "against: as has Vertical, but what the consensus here folks?Gator (talk) 17:01, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with you Gator, in my opinion veritical's POV is purely biased and totally wrong. My 2 cents --70.45.65.85 01:38, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

The demographic section is fine as it is, I would add that demographic in the country of Puerto Rico belongs without any doubt to the same context as demographic in Cuba and the spanish caribbean region including the northern part of Colombia, Venezuela, Panama and Dominican Republic. The only difference between Cuba, the spanish caribbean and Puerto Rico is the political status, For example Cuba and Puerto Rico had the same level of social structure development since both were the last colonies of spain in latin america, the brotherhood of these 2 nations can be find in many historical writtings from Hostos to Betances to Jose Marti, the difference is that after 1898 one became independent the other a colony and in 1952 a commonwealth but both have the same racial structure of foremost Spanish descent, Caribbean Indians and Africans (In Puerto Rico the mix is higher than it is in Cuba with Cuba being less mulatto and with less indian traits while in Puerto Rico indian traits are much higher than african). Racially Puerto Rico is extremely similar to Venezuela (I've been there several times and it is like being in San Juan) Both have a strong spanish blood mixed with caribbean indian as second and african to a lesser degree . Dominican Republic due to its separation from Spain much earlier than the countries of Cuba and Puerto Rico and the fact that shares the island of Hispaniola with Haiti the demographic goes in the opposite direction , African descent , Caribbean indian and Spanish blood in order of importance.--vertical 17:28, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I am well aware of Puerto Rican history. Puerto Rico's culture and perception of race is undeniably different from that of the US. Whether they were por-Statehood, pro-Commonwealth, or macheteros, the majority of people I spoke to asserted Puerto Rico's uniqueness and nationhood. If the comment "So, if a person is black in the US they should be black in Puerto Rico. Not, white as the US Census shows" were true, then you could say "since January 6th is a day of no special significance in the US, then it should be a day of no special significance in Puerto Rico". Race is a cultural construct. The culture of Puerto Rico is distinct from that of the US. Why should it be any more surprising that race is defined differently in Puerto Rican culture? You can't buy lechon asado on the side of every major road in Oklahoma. And while Mexican-Americans in Lansing, Michigan call everyone capron, I wouldn't advise calling anyone that in Puerto Rico.

To look at the proposed section line by line:

Because Puerto Rico is part of the United States race is defined by the same way it is in the mainland United States by the US Office of Management and Budget.

This is unnecessary - at best it's worth linking the word "race" to an appropriate article on the definition of race in the US.

Due to racism in Puerto Rico a large number people who would be black/African American in the mainland US mark their US Census forms as white.

This assertion is made as a "fact". Since it deals with people's motivation for making a decision, to be asserted as a "fact" it needs to be based on research and questionaires, etc. So, at best it would have to say "According to X [source given]..." But more than that, in my experience it isn't that 80% of the people in Puerto Rico feel that they can escape racism in Puerto Rico by calling themselves white. To begin with, no one is supposed to know how you identified yourself on your census form. Most Puerto Ricans I have spoken to assume that they have white, Taino and African blood. But US census forms require you to pick one single race. In a society which does not have the one-drop rule, and in which there has always been a continuum between the racial groups, it makes sense for people to pick the thing that they are most.

The racial mixture of Africans and Europeans in Puerto Rico is almost the same as in the mainland United States.

This is misleading. To begin with, most Puerto Ricans are white-taino-black; most mainlanders are white.

Unlike Halle Berry who has has one black parent and one white parent stated: "When I was younger, living in an all-black neighborhood the other kids thought I was better then them because of my light skin and straight hair, then we moved to an all-white neighborhood and that was a culture shock. I'd been used to being around all black kids?I'm black, I realized very early in my life that I wasn't going to be this mulatto stuck in the middle, not knowing if I'm black or white."

This is (a) a mainland anecdote, which is greatly at odds with Puerto Rican perceptions of race, (b) an unencylopaedic anecdote - information about the perception of race in Puerto Rico should be based on reliable academic sources.

Many in Puerto Rico do not have a white and black parent and are very similar to the racial heritage of many black/African Americans in the mainland United States. Yet, a large number of Puerto Ricans will mark white on the US Census forms.

Of course, because in the US, with its one-drop rule perception of race, people of mixed black and white ancestry are black. Puerto Rico has a difference culture. They are Puerto Ricans, but if they have pick a race, well, they'll "trade up" rather than "trade down" and unlike African Americans, since they don't have a cultural identification of Africanness, they can do it without seeing themselves as "selling out".

The concept of race as used by the Census Bureau...

This most definitely does not belong anywhere near the article. Link to the appropriate article. Guettarda 18:18, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


Feedback on adding the "Demographic Controversy" section

I agree that Puerto Rico has some things in common with Cuba. But, the biggest difference is Puerto Rico is a US territory. Colombia, Venezuela, Panama and Dominican Republic were also former European Spanish colonies and may also suffer from the same identity crisis. Meaning people feel better of themselves if they consider themselves white and not black. That's something that is common in the western hemisphere. It could be because being black in the western hemisphere is views as a negative thing.

As far as American Indians being higher than Africans in Puerto Rico is not in fact true either. History has shown that when the European Spanish, French and English first arrived in the new world and return many of the native populations on the Caribbean had died off and many of the rest were killed by the Spanish and French.

Example document supporting this:

.....1493, during his second voyage, Columbus founded Isabela, the first permanent Spanish settlement in the New World, on Hispaniola. After finding gold in recoverable quantities nearby, the Spanish quickly overran the island and spread to Puerto Rico in 1508, to Jamaica in 1509, and to Cuba in 1511. The natives fared badly. Many died in one-sided armed conflict with soldiers and settlers, or in forced servitude in mines and on plantations. Others died of diseases to which they had no immunity. By mid-century, the native Ciboney of Hispaniola and western Cuba were extinct, and other tribes, including the Arawak of Puerto Rico, were nearly so. ....


http://www.nps.gov/fora/spain.htm

Most white Spanish people who are of mixed heritage in Puerto Rico are mixed with to a larger amount with Africans, who were the largest population by the time the islands were repopulated with the new comers


Saying Puerto Ricans have higher Indian traits compared to their African triats could also fall under "being black" is negative and bad. No one wants to be black when given the choice in the western hemisphere it seems, when give a choice to mark something else on a Census form.


Dominican Republic people also say the same thing like people from Puerto Rico.


The Census for Dominican Republic shows the following:

Ethnic groups:

white: 16%

black: 11%

mixed (black and white): 73%

Population: 8,950,034 (July 2005 est.)

http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/dr.html

That really means 84% of the people in Dominican Republic are black.


Haiti Population

black: 95%

mulatto: and white 5%

Population: 8,121,622

http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ha.html


The issue of being black pops up in the former Spanish and Portuguese colonies more than it does in the former English and French colonies. In the former French and English colonies if a person has any African blood they are considered to be black. Wonder why in the former European Spanish and Portugese colonies there is a fear to be called black and wanting to be called white instead?


It seems that a main reason why someone may not want to add this topic to the Puerto Rico article could be, because they do not want people do know anything about the Demographic Controversy that is in fact a topic. Just as the article states above that was in the Orlando newspaper. It exist and it is in fact true.

......


Yeah, that's the reason, you got me....Gator (talk) 19:23, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Gator1, I'm not sure I understand your comment. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]]).

To begin with, the Dominican Republic data shows exactly what the problem is with US census categories - the fact that there is no "mixed" category. As for the Taino thing - recent studies have shown that the majority (~53% in the sample population, iirc) of Puerto Ricans have Ameridian blood. With regards to English and French islands - for one, it is false to say that not all people of mixed blood are black - I know many white Trinidadians (both "socially" white, and people who consider themselves actually white) who have African blood. Puerto Rico was not a plantation colony, not during the slavery period - most settlers were Spanish or Mediterranean peasants, who intermarried first with the Taino population, and later with the African slave population. The African population intermarried with, and was largely acculturated into, a mestizo population which identified as Spanish. African slaves never made up a substantial proportion of the population of Puerto Rico or Santo Domingo - the number of slaves imported is dwarfed by the number of free European immigrants.

This was not the case in the British and French islands because the population was overwhelmingly African, and there was no white peasant class. This was not the case in Barbados, where the "poor whites" (Redlegs) did intermarry with the African population to some extent (but remained "white"), and in populations of Barbadian origins who relocated to St Vincent, St Lucia and Grenada. Trinidad was different - there was a wealthy mulatto class there, which is some cases "married up" enough to become socially white. While a Trinidad white friend of mine commented once that her grandmother knew every family, and which ones were "real white" and which ones were "passing", the younger generations did not know, and no longer cared. Guettarda 22:49, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Guettarda

You say that recent studies have shown that the majority (~53% in the sample population, iirc) of Puerto Ricans have Ameridian blood.


So, you're saying that less have black African blood?


That does not even seem logical. Since Puerto Rico was over run by the black Africans that the Spanish brought there as slave. There were hardly any Native Americans/Indians left by the time the black Africans came to that island. History is documented showing this. Plus, most white Spanish men and white Spanish people in the New World thought of Indians as savages. If the Indians didn't die from diseases, the Spanish, French Portuguese and English killed them off.


Why is there such a disregard of the large number of black Africans that were in Puerto Rico? Is there some shame at being black there?

And if 53% of Puerto Rican have Amerindian blood, how on ether are over 80% white? That just sounds foolish.

It sounds more like denial than acceptance of the black Africans that over populated most of the colonial European's Caribbean slave colonies.

After all most black/African Americans in the mainland came into that country from the Caribbean slave markets.

Mulattos might also constitute a significant portion of the population of Puerto Rico, a commonwealth territory in association with the USA.

However, recent genetic research indicates that, in relation to matrilineal ancestry as revealed by mtDNA,

Female

61% have inherited mitochondrial DNA from an Amerind female ancestor

27% have inherited mitochondrial DNA from a female African ancestor

12% showed to have inherited mitochondrial DNA from a female European ancestor


Male

70% of all Puerto Rican males have inherited Y chromosome DNA from a male European ancestor

20% have inherited Y chromosome DNA from a male African ancestor

10% have inherited Y chromosome DNA from male Amerindian ancestor

Because these test measure only the DNA along the matrilineal line and patrilinel lines of inheritance, each test only measures the one individual out of thousands, perhaps millions of ancestors.

They cannot tell us exactly what percentage of Puerto Ricans have African Ancestry.


Now, don't you think it's odd they can tell how many have European and Amerindian blood?...Yet, for some reason they can't tell how many have African blood? This seems mighty strange or intentional.

I not trying to make a fuss. But, I'm just saying that there is more information showing most people in Puerto Rico are not white like the Census shows.

I think this is a good topic and this information should be added to the article on Puerto Rico. Only because a person might need this information for research.

References

I would like to create a concensus on how references should be inserted. As of now there are very different notations which in turn creates broken or unusable links. I propose that either invisible references or notes be used. If anyone agrees or has better ideas please post below.

Also can we stop the demographic, political non-sense. The Puerto Rico talk page looks like a kindergarden debate which will never be resolved if people are not objective.Joelito 23:20, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Joelito, I dont see anything wrong by persons showing what they think about, I find it very interesting reading these comments as it helps me gain more knowlege, this is what wikipedia's for, right? So please stop being to pushy, if you dont like it, then dont read it. It looks like you want the world to revolve around you, sorry to burst your bubble, it aint that way. So please let people express themselves and by not telling them what to do because you don't like it. My $0.02 cents.
Have a great night, and keep commenting on this subject it is very interesting.--70.45.65.85 01:43, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I think we should be objective. I also think that Wikipedia is a great source for the world. People might be doing research on the demographics of Puerto Rico and what is stated currently in the article does not give the clear total truth.

I think this the portion above should be added to the Puerto Rico article.

So, when will we find out what portions of this addition can be added to the main article for Puerto Rico on Wikikpedia? Who will pass on this answer?


--That article is an essay, an opinion, a pov opinion. Get official academic or gov. resources from Puerto Rico, that opinion essay pasted in the pro statehood webpage from a us. paper columnist does not qualify.

Economy

I have deleted the following paragraph: "Official economic reports tend to ignore the significant economic influence of the "Black Market" on Puerto Rican culture. Many transactions between individuals and also with businesses go unrecorded to avoid payment of Puerto Rico income taxes (25% of income over $50,000 as of 2004). Also, the illegal drug trade is a significant but undocumented source of income for the islanders. In "Pay to the Order of Puerto Rico", by Alexander Odishelidze, almost one-third of the illegal drugs that enter the United States do so via Puerto Rico, with this black market trade directly employing 100,000 to 125,000 individuals, and engaging approximately 500,000 people in collateral businesses that sustain the trade."

The reasons for the deletion are lack of references and also the only reference given is by an author considered to be biased and very POV [5]. Also I find it difficult to place a paragraph on the drug market economy in Puerto Rico when the Economy of Colombia, a country notorious for drug traffic, does not mention its drug market economy. I do not mind re-adding the article once it is properly referenced (eg. verifiable data). I know it says that the paragraph mentions that Odishelidze's book presents this information but I would prefer that the book not be mentioned in the paragraph. It looks like advertising. The proper way is to place a note or reference on the book. Joelito 04:05, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Did You Know?

I have been watching the did you know section and have noticed that it is getting a bit large. I really like this section because most of the information presented was unknown to me. I propose that the section be remade so it resembles the did you know section in the wikipedia main page. Interesting facts could be replaced every week. I propose the creation (or modification) of a template to replace the section as it is now. I have made a modified did you know template which can be found here. New suggestions could be made at either a talk page or at the Wikipedia:WikiProject Puerto Rico. Also an archive of the interesting facts could be kept at either a talk page or at a newly created article. I would like to create a consensus before making any modifications to the section so I encourage everyone to please go see the template and comment on the suggestions I have presented above. Joelito 17:41, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Looks good! (We can also easily format the current version to match the one in your user page example). My only concern is that I don't think there would be enough trivia out there to be able to come up with a new one every week. Although that doesn't mean that we can't have Did you know - Puerto Rico created and have all the facts listed there while the main PR page only contains a small subset of these. --Stux 18:08, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
We can due it monthly. I doesn't have to be weekly. Smylere Snape 00:41, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

That's how I like it. We Puerto Rican brothers working together for a common cause. Joel, do what must be done! Tony the Marine 03:01, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Is it really appropriate to compare General del Valle with Patton, McArthur, et al? Sure he was a great man, and brave, but I don't think most historians would place his contributions on the same levels as these others. Not to diminish his contribution, you could do a whole hell of a lot and not be on, say, Eisenhower's level. If nobody objects I may come back and reword this. --ThirtyOneKnots 20:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Merge suggested

Discussion here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Did You Know - Puerto Rico. One of the things being suggested is to merge the DYK article with the DYK template used in the portal and have one common store of facts. Those interested may want to participate in the discussion... ++Lar: t/c 02:45, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

1858 Census, Reference

Can anyone provide a reference for the following text: "A census conducted by royal decree on September 30,1858, gives the following totals of the puerto rican population at this time, Whites 300,430 (many of the inhabitants, classed as white, have, both in their features and manners, definite traces of the Indian race), Free colored 341,015, Slaves 41,736, Unclassified 127, this cenus also clearly verifys puerto ricos diverse Ancestral heritage" ? I have searched but have yet to come up with anything. A reference would be great. Joelito 01:51, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


Motto - John is his name

What an unusual motto. I suppose it relates to John the Baptist and not Juan Ponce de León? Can someone write a little something about the history and significance of it please.

The seal dates back to 1511 and it indeeds relates to John the Baptist which was the original name of the island and is also a quote from the book of Luke. More information may be found hereJoelito 15:46, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I'm no expert in Spanish, but I was convinced that American Spanish lacks interdental fricatives and that therefore all these [ð] in the IPA version of the Spanish name are, at best, very odd. Even more so since in Castilian, it would be [estado] and [asoθiado], if I'm not wrong. I'll rectify if nobody can explain why this should remain as it is. JREL 16:49, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I believe the pronunciation presented is one that reflects how an English speaker would pronunciate Puerto Rico. The pronunciation is not made to represent how someone with knowledge, albeit small, of Spanish would pronunciate Puerto Rico. Joelito 17:03, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough, but the text reads "(Spanish: Estado Libre Asociado de Puerto Rico, IPA [es'taðo 'libɾe asosiaðo de 'pweɾto 'riko])", clearly conveying the impression that the IPA there stands for the Spanish name. I doubt that English speakers would bother much about the full name in Spanish... we'd much rather stick to Puerto Rico, wouldn't we. Mind you, I'm neither American nor Spanish-speaking, so my authority on this is limited.
I think it does make sense to include the IPA of official names in official non-English languages -- it certainly seems to be the practice in most articles. However one could question this practice for Spanish, where pronunciation is so clearly encoded in the spelling. JREL 20:46, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I, myself, have questioned IPA for Spanish pronunciations for the reason you described but I have opted to maintain the pronunciation for the sake of standarization of the articles. Joelito 22:05, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I've replaced the dental fricatives with stops... and added the stress in [asosiado]. Hope that's correct. JREL 09:06, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Consistency on Pedro Albizu Campos

"He would eventually die by what he claimed was a conspiracy set in place by the U.S. Federal Government.", says the article.

The wording seems to reflect that he claimed his death was a conspiracy after he died. How can this be so? How can he say his death is due to a conspiracy if he is not dead yet? This sentence needs, at the very least, re-wording, but it should also contain some sort of reference. It is also a controversial sentence...

Hari Seldon 12:29, 28 April 2006 (UTC -6)

I have added a reference and changed the sentence to "He would eventually die in prison while serving time for seditious conspiracy to overthrow the U.S. Government in Puerto Rico". I hope this fixes it. Anything else that can be improved?Joelito 17:41, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
You write that he died in prison, but the source you quote says he has been pardoned in 1964 en died in Hato Rey in 1965. Otto 12:03, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
You are correct. My mistake. Thank you for correcting the information. Joelito (talk) 14:32, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

ASSERTING UNREF and FACT templates

  1. Giving this topic a quick read, there are a number of statements that are borderline POV
  2. I've spent time on the Island at the naval base at Roosevelt Roads, and I can't believe this assertion in the article:
/* Politics */ Assert FACT TEMPLATE (Citation needed) in This effectively raises costs of goods to two or three times that paid in the United States.
Ludicrous, it's all taxes? Aside from the fact that the cost of living 'market basket' per 'economists' is highly unlikely to be 2X or 3X costs in NYC, LA, Boston, Chicago, San Francisco which costs in the USA: Median, Average, Modal? These all vary widely region to region.
  1. It is doubtful that average housing costs are anywhere near half of any of those listed cities. If things are so bad why aren't we getting more Puerto Ricans as immigrants? That wave peak in the fifties or early sixties iirc.
  2. Prices here 15 miles north of Boston vary widely two towns over, as do they 30 miles north in lower-middle New Hampshire, or 30 miles west in sparcer populated areas of Massachusetts. I'll grant you that things requiring water or which take a lot of water to produce (Coca Cola, other soft drinks) are relatively expensive as they are on all the Caribean Islands—for that is a function of scarce local resources and warer is nearly always scarce at that latitude, but there are offseting cost savings as well.
  3. Shipping costs to an out-of-the-way location have nothing to do with costs? I have relatives on St. Thomas, and most prices iirc, are fairly similar, and if anything, more expensive in St. Thomas and the other US Virgin Islands.
  4. No doubt there are rural mainland towns one can call 'typical' in the US where one might make those numbers fit, but the statement needs supported by an authorative source, such as the US Dept. of Commerce. For my part, I suspect the typical town is not very typical at all.

FrankB 03:39, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you that 2 to 3 times is almost certainly an overstatement. However, it cannot be denied that Puerto Rico's imports suffer from double tax. Taxes are paid in the U.S. port where the goods are rerouted and then Puerto Rico's 6.6% arbitrios (taxes) are also paid upon arrival. The Roosevelt Roads base did not pay these arbitrios hence things are cheaper at the base (same thing happens in Fort Buchanan). I will look for a reference for the sentence or I will remove/rewrite it all together to avoid controversy. Joelito (talk) 04:01, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Removed text

Because past processes for self-determination in Puerto Rico have not had Congressional support, the political parties in power have manipulated ballot options to favor the alternative of their predilection. The other political parties tend to resist and voice their concerns over the legitimacy of the process. Ultimately, every vote fails as either non-binding upon United States Congress or because viable and appropriate status options have been excluded from the ballot.

This is very opinionated. Any opinions in the article on the electoral process should represent multiple perspectives and be referenced. -- Beland 01:50, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Incorrect census information removed

Puerto Ricans living on the island are not counted among the Hispanics residing in the U.S.; in fact, they are not included in the U.S. population count at all, although all Puerto Ricans are statutory U.S. citizens. Puerto Rico also is not included in the Current Population Surveys that the Census Bureau conducts to update its decennial census.

This is quite untrue, something which should be patently obvious by the fact that census data for PR is reported in other sections of this very article! Census 2000 results can be found at http://www.census.gov/census2000/states/pr.html and yearly updates at: http://www.census.gov/popest/estimates.php -- Beland 01:57, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I think this sentence, "Puerto Ricans living on the island are not counted among the Hispanics residing in the U.S.; in fact, they are not included in the U.S. population count at all, although all Puerto Ricans are statutory U.S. citizens." was true though. Joelito (talk) 02:00, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Ah, I think I see the difference. You mean that Puerto Rico was included in the U.S. Census, but that its population is reported separately from some "national" figure. The wording here would definitely have to be clarified, and I'm not entirely sure one demographic category out of all the categories people in PR would fit into (being Hispanic, which not everyone there is) would bear singling out. Anyway, is there a reference for this claim? -- Beland 00:38, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Honestly, I do not consider the fact relevant enough to be included so we can leave it out. Joelito (talk) 01:08, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Puerto Rico uses the service of the US census, that is all to it. US population does not include PR neither PR are counted as hispanics since PR is not a state neither an incorporated territory. It is a self governing commonwealth. I agree with Joelito. Keep this data out.Vertical123 (talk) 12:20, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Food

The topic should not be listed in this article. Someone keeps adding it and it makes it seem much more of a vetnarary description. It is not helping this article. Since food is much more a biological necessity it is well-known we all need it to survive. An internal link to the topic of "Puerto Rican Gastronomy" should be created, but I say that the section does not belong in this article. It is extremely poorly written and makes it seems that all Puerto Ricans eat rice. For example, I do not. Many Puerto Ricans such as Puerto Rican Jews and Muslims also have set dietary guidelines by their religious beliefs/peers. --XLR8TION 13:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Rice is not from Africa. It is of Asian origin. Most beans and legumes were product of the Americas. You apparently are poorly educated in the history of food origins. Your contributions will be deleted until you learn how to write in legible and do not utilize cerebral mistruths that your brain churns out. Logical reasoning is important in order to prevent future generations of people like yorself from roaming the planet--XLR8TION 14:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Rice was brought to Spain by the Moors in the 8th century. --iMeowbot~Meow 00:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Rice originally is from the Euphrates region of Iraq, which is the cradle of civilization. Due to trade between the Middle East and the Zaghreb (north Africa), the Moors brought rice to the region, and eventually to Spain. Iraq is part of the Asian continent. --XLR8TION 03:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

LANGUAGE

There is already a section on language. To the editor submitting a seperate section on language, please refrain from doing so. The topic is redundant and is poorly written. Dialect differences does not signify a change to language. Puerto Rican Spanish is not a pidgin language, therefore please do not paint it as so.--XLR8TION 14:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Besides, the Spanish language article mentions the language's origins. There's no need to reiterate it here. Xoroa 14:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't figure out how to take it out! It dosen't appear on any edit screens. Very confusing. CharlesMartel 15:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)CharlesMartel

It was removed already. It might reappear but as note to experienced editors on the topic, it should be removed from article. --XLR8TION 15:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Racist language, expletives, or any other hate-related language will not be tolerated on this site. Your entries will be deleted and your ISP will be blocked. Please refrain from hate-filled language.--XLR8TION 20:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

To the supposedly college educated moron who is editing pages on the internet without any valid point, your educational attainment only shows that you either went to one of two colleges: Clown or Barber. Addressing people as "son" signifies an deficiency in your vernacular and also addresses the issue that your oafish methods are juvenile. Your ignorant, unbiased POV will be ignored from this site. Please move to a site like MySpace where you can express your POV and find some time to chat with others in your ilk. --XLR8TION 11:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed) - CobaltBlueTony 16:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

99% of the population is in school

In the education part of the artical, it stated "About 99% of the population attends elementary school and 67% pursue further education". ......now I find that hard to believe that almost everyone in Puerto Rico is under the age of 11. Some one needs to clarify and fix this obvious mistake. --User:Darijo101 1:30, 8 Jul 2006

Clearly you misunderstand the sentence. It means that 99% of people have attended or are attending elementary. Joelito (talk) 15:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Metropolitan Areas of Puerto Rico

Greater San Juan is not the only one,theres Ponce,Mayaguez,Aguadilla,Arecibo and maybe Humacao..I think I read it from the Census..

Here is the information. [6] I must say it is totally ridiculous. It includes more than 25 municipios in the San Juan-Bayamón metropolitan area. Even Yabucoa is included, LOL. I will study with more detail how they obtained the data and what parameters they used for classifying the metropolitan areas. For now, I am very skeptical on the information available in this link. Joelito (talk) 04:03, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Well it sounds funny for us but by US standards its correct.I'm pretty sure they're counting Yabucoa as part of the Caguas Metropolitan Area...instead of counting Caguas as part of the Greater San Juan area...

No they are not counting Yabucoa in the Caguas area. It is in the San Juan-Bayamón area which makes, to me, this information unreliable. Joelito (talk) 23:19, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

They don't have Humacao as a Metropolitan Area,I think they should have it...and Yabucoa should be part of the Humacao Metro Area..

The San Juan MSA is large because the San Juan urbanized area is also quite large. Every municipio containing a significant proportion of the continuous urbanization would be included plus additional outlying municipios. --Polaron | Talk 03:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

And it looks like some areas have merged as of the December 2005 definition. Here is the current list of metropolitan areas and their 2005 populations:

  • San Juan-Caguas-Guaynabo (2,579,799)
  • Aguadilla-Isabela-San Sebastián (330,291)
  • Ponce (264,433)
  • San Germán-Cabo Rojo (143,429)
  • Yauco (122,652)
  • Mayagüez (112,545)
  • Guayama (84,180)
  • Fajardo (80,138)

The San Juan one does seem overly large. --Polaron | Talk 03:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

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