Talk:Pu-erh tea

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[edit] Article Revamp

Based on the "To Do" list below, I've revamped the article, incorporating previous information and including much, much more information about the tea and reorganizing the topics more comprehensively. I've added regions, factories, a dissection of a cake, and lots of characters and pinyin. My pinyin may not be 100% correctly formulated (I don't know Chinese tone-shifting rules), and I welcome any changes by those with this knowledge. --Bearsbearsbears 08:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Necessary Sections / To Do List

1. Can we create a disambiguation page that would redirect "Pu'er" to "Pu-erh"? Or, better yet, considering that "pu'er" is the pinyin form, and this tea is from the mainland, rename this post entirely to "Pu'er Tea"? I don't mean to approach political issues regarding Wades-Giles and Pinyin, only to reflect the heritage of the tea. ~~2. It would be helpful to include Chinese characters wherever possible for names of places and concepts in pu'er, most helpful to include both simplified & traditional.~~

3. There are a lot of issues to cover about this tea that need flushing out, as this is a complex tea:

a) Pedigree by factory, tea mountain/region, year, and season: any understanding or even introduction to pu'er has to approach the idea of the factory (wine analogy: bottling company), tea mountain/region (vineyard/grape region), year (vintage), and season (spring pu'er, autumn pu'er, summer pu'er, are usually valued in that order, with an occasional strange winter production)

b) Tea Mountains and Regions: what are some of the major regions (Bulang, Bangwei, Nannuo, Banzhang, Lincang, Simao, Snow Mountain, Menghai, Mengsa, Yiwu, etc.), and hopefully some information about them.

c) Pu'er shapes: ~~What are they,~~ their history, their benefits for aging.

d) The Marketplace/Trends: Taiwanese businessmen who are pu'er fans forming small-batch operations; lots of fakes of new and old teas in the marketplace, particularly for aged tea, and particularly online; pu'er in the news, maybe?

e) Pictures! I have quite a few, but could use some help posting them.

~~f) Anatomy of a cake: neifei, neipiao, etc. (something akin to what's available on Hou De Asian Art but with more information)~~

g) Aging: what are ideal conditions for aging, what changes does aging bring about, etc. There is very little information about this process in English, so I suspect that no more than a cursory review of this information could be constructed.

~~h) Recipes - deciphering a recipe code.~~ Bearsbearsbears 22:51, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Great additions Bears! I can respond to a couple of your questions.

1) I've created the disambiguation page and a couple of other articles, one of which redirects here (Pu'er (tea)).

e) I can help you with pictures if you'd like to message me. Otherwise, there there are two guides which may be of use. The first guide helps you upload images. The second guide helps you place the uploaded images into the article.

Thanks for the help with the article, Scott5834 07:54, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Random stuff

The following line is removed. The facts are flawed. Over this time it acquires an earthy flavor due to the layer of mold that develops on the leaves (or tea brick if they are compressed). -- sltan

This article is completely lacking in sources and citations. Of particular concern for me is the line "Pu-erh tea has been subject to a number of health studies. A number of medical studies have substantiated claims that the tea helps reduce cholesterol levels and saturated fats in humans, and that it might also assist in weight loss." Is there any evidence for this? Or is it something that the manufacturers and marketeers would like to have us believe?

Pur-Erh should be classified under green tea. --sltan

I have found many references to the presence of mold in at least some varieties of Pu-Erh tea, so I have restored language in the article that mentions it (along with the fermentation and earthy flavor that are characteristic of this tea). Dr.frog 23:28, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Please post the references, it would be interesting. --Iateasquirrel 22:39, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, it doesn't matter, since the author that wrote "Judging quality" has clear the dust. Actually, the "special quality Pur-Er with mold" are merely myth created by unscrupulous traders to sell the inferior products.--Sltan 18:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks ;) But I'm not sure most of the "dust" has cleared. First, aging and ripening of most pu-erhs do require the presence of some mold species (A. niger). Second, a slightly moldy tea does make the tea taste smoother, as such some collectors (though less so now) will promote their growth by storing their tea in damp environments. Sjschen 02:34, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

It is not encourage to consume molded tea. Whether from the view of tea maker or food scientist, it is a dangerous and discourage practice. It is known that dangerous mold will growth whenever the condition is permitted. Due to mineral and nutrient contain in tea leaves, there is no way for one to make sure only Aspergillus niger growth on the tea, but also other harmful mold(which can cause cancer or other illness). --Sltan 14:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Mold can generate a host of crazy compounds being the chemical factories that they are, and no doubt some are bad for you. Still our bodies have evolved certain things to defend against stuff like that, and assuming we don't drink too much of it, it's really not that "bad". As for whether faster or slower fermentation produce less or more of the bad stuff I don't know. Besides, the same process also occurs whether in aged raw dry-stored teas or ripened teas, with all kinds of molds working on the teas. They have the same things in French cheeses if you know what I mean. Sjschen 15:31, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Black teas...

The problem with saying that puer cannot be processed from black tea is a confusion of terms. There are three main classifications of tea: Red, Black and Green. All teas begin as green teas, and can be adulterated to become black or red.

Red tea is what we call "Black Tea" in the west. It is tea that is partially fermented. True Black teas are processed in more intense ways, and Oolong is one of the black teas.

Pu'er tea can fall into two categories: Fermented Green Tea, (生茶）Sheng Cha and Black (processed,not red) tea, （熟饼）Shu Bing - this type of pu'er is less valuable as it has been adulterated to accelerate the natural aging process.

There is a third kind of Pu'er, known as 青毛 Qingmao or green hairs. These are the fresh leaves of what will eventually become real pu'er after a few years.

There are a few things that need addressing in this article: Pu'er is in no way related to Oolong tea The chemical aging process is more complex than mere mold or fermentation, and not fully understood. The initial processing is to wash and trample the leaves, then allow them to dry in indirect sunlight. The old caravans would soak the tea again in cold water to fit their mule packs better, and then the tea would pass through several altitudes and climate zones on the way to Canton (Guangdong). True Pu'er is never heated, but stored in underground cellars to age naturally.

I'll try and add something to the article when I can get something more solid. Regards, Jeff Crosby

[edit] Fermented vs. cultured.

Is the process that changes Green Tea to Pu-Erh best described as fermentation? My understanding of the process is that the tea is cultured -- more like milk into yogurt, than grapes into wine. Isn't "fermentation" the conversion of sugar into alcohol and carbon dioxide? Perhaps it is the established term and has a wider meaning than this and I am mistaken, but I imagine most people would have this idea of fermentation as well. Perhaps a line clarifying the difference in meaning would be helpful.4.158.141.210 23:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

This is tricky, the dictionary using Dictionary program on GNOME gives that fermentation is simply in the wider sense organic transformation of things to new things. I think in terms of Pu-erh fermentation is correct and it is often used, also some people say oxidation as the processes apparently occur only when Pu-erh is exposed to air. Why I think using fermentation is better; because oxidation can be used in terms of Oolong and Black/Red tea and its a somewhat different process. --Iateasquirrel 02:26, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

IMHO, the word "tea fermentation" is direct translate from the Chinese language. The word is used in the Chinese tea processing for thousand of year because the people have no idea about enzyme break down due to oxidization process, thus view the process similar to fermentation. While the word "oxidization" appear to be modern scientific discovery. Books produce by expert in China has pointed it out as oxidization process.--Sltan 14:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Two suggestions...Three Suggestions Now

Great article. Two suggestions: 1) discuss the Cantonese style tea that is half pu'erh and half chrysanthemum flowers (called "leihua"?); and 2) make a page for the Pu'erh County that the tea is from. Badagnani 08:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

The combination of puerh and chrysanthemum is actually called "Jupu" 菊普(chrysanthemum-puerh), or "Gok-po" in Cantonese (same words). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MarshalN (talk • contribs) 16:11, 17 December 2006 (UTC).

New Suggestion: Can someone add a section or more clearly point out where information is regarding how to store this tea?

[edit] Cantoneese

Can the characters for the Cantonese "bolei"/"bolay"/"bonay" be added? Badagnani 10:05, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know Cantonese, but I think those are mainly different pronunciation for the same 2 chinese characters. Sjschen 17:35, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Can we add "bonay"? I don't have any idea how they derive that pronunciation but it's used on the Foojoy package and elsewhere, I believe. Badagnani 05:34, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Sure, why not? The more the merrier! Sjschen 05:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Cantonese doesn't have its own characters, at least not strictly speaking it doesn't. The characters for puerh are exactly the same, they're just pronunced differently. However, proper Cantonese pronunciation for puerh is actually "po-lei". The Foojoy romanization is off. I'm not sure if that could actually be a Minnan dialect pronunciation.MarshalN 16:17, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see they don't block you when in HK :) I'm not sure where "bolay" comes from but it could be cantonese done using mandarin pinyin. It's not Minnan since I remember it as being pronouned "po-ee" or something. Sjschen 16:44, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I don’t know Cantonese romanization, but using English spelling I would say it’s “bow lay” (bow as in bow tie). As for “nay” instead of “lay”, I suspect that is because a lot of Cantonese speakers don’t distinguish between “n” and “l”, eg I prononuce “you” as “lay”, but others pronounce it “nay”. Obviously this is all without indicating the tones. To get a bit technical, the “b” in Cantonese “bow lay” is unvoiced and unaspirated, the same as in “Beijing”, some romanizations use "p", it's also "p" in IPA. LDHan 06:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for this invaluable help. Two comments: 1. Isn't it "l" and "r" (not "l" and "n") that are used interchangeably in Asian languages? I've never heard that "l" and "n" were interchanged in Cantonese. That's very interesting. 2. The "B" in "Beijing," I think, is definitely voiced (that's why it's a "b" and not a "p"), but a bit explosive like the letter "Paw pla" ("Bpaw bpla") in Thai. Badagnani 14:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Merging "l" and "n" is common in a lot of southern Chinese dialects, not just just Cantonese, see Standard Cantonese and Cantonese (linguistics). The "B" in "Beijing" as pronounced in Chinese is unvoiced and unaspirated, similar to the first sound in "Paris" pronounced in French, in fact most varieties of Chinese, including putonghua, do not have voiced intitial stops/plosives, the exceptions being Wu and Xiang. "B" and "p" in pinyin are used according to its own system of romanization and do not necessarily follow the spelling conventions of English or any other language.

Actually, I might be wrong about the Cantonese pronounciation of "bolay", I’m sure I’ve heard the first sound as unvoiced and unaspirated, but when I look up the first character it’s given as pou, ie unvoiced but aspirated. Then I realised it’s the same character as pu as in putonghua, which IS unvoiced and aspirated in Cantonese. LDHan 18:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I am a native Cantonese speaker, at least of the Hong Kong variety, and usually puerh is pronunced as "po-lay" with an aspirated initial.

It is true that sometimes P and B sounds in Cantonese are mixed, and the same can be said, to a certain degree, of L and N sounds, but more often than not one is the correct one and the other one is accepted as a substitute. They are not strictly interchangable. If you say "bo-nay" and want to talk about the tea puerh... people will look at you funny and think you have a weird accent, or simply unable to aspirate consonants. Do a survey in local dim sum restaurants and see how often you hear "po-lay" instead of "bo-lay" or "bo-nay" or "po-nay", and you'll know what I mean.MarshalN 10:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Six famous tea mountains

I've seen a couple of different versions of mountains listed as being the "six mountains". Which are you ones that we should note down? There is some interesting information about it here, but is there a more primary source for the information? Sjschen 19:47, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that the second list of Six Famous Tea Mountains is erroneous and needs to be investigated. I'll check my sources and see what I can find. Xiefeilaga 05:06, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On passing GA

Article is comprehensive, well referenced, and well organized. All images are relevant and well licensed. Good job! --Jayron 32 05:26, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Withering of leaves before maocha

I do not have a copy of Mr. Chan's new book, so I don't know what he says. However, it is my understanding that withering the freshly plucked leaves before the "kill-green" in the wok is NOT proper puerh processing and is NOT how they used to make things. It is one of the newer styles of making puerh that is quite controversial. Can someone tell me what exactly he said (as I don't have access to this very new book) and whether or not he says this SHOULD be how puerh is done? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MarshalN (talk • contribs) 16:16, 17 December 2006 (UTC).

I do not have the book as well, however what I wrote were taken from reading the samples pages at Houde and at Mr. Chan's picture site. From pane 3-5 here, we see "dehydration" by withering prior to "kill-green" in the wok in pane 6 and 7. It is possible that he has given additional information in the book that will state otherwise, but if that is the case, then the information given in the panes would be rather misleading. I've also read in a few sites that some sun withering is done prior to kill-green, which is why I am lead to believe that what I have read in the book pages is not entirely wrong. Do you have the sources that state that fresh tea leaves undergo kill-green directly without initial wilting? Sjschen 02:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Aside from other experienced tea friends -- people on Sanzui all seem to think that withering is not a good idea, as it basically makes the tea into an oolong before it gets pressed. Withering, aside from losing water content, will also mean that the tea is actually going through oxidation. Oolongs are made by letting the tea wither and oxidize over a number of hours, and then frying it, rolling, and finally drying the tea. Puerh, however, is not oolong. So that's why I'm questioning what's going on there.... perhaps the best is to caveat the withering bit with something like "this is still a controversial process that is not widely accepted as standard practice for processing puerh maocha".MarshalN 12:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, withering without first denaturing the enzymes through kill-green (KG) causes oxidation of the leaves. But then again I've never really considered pu-erh maocha as a "pure" green tea for several reasons. First is as there is the "pile and wither" process described above that I have see being bantered around. Second, aside from panned KG, there is also sunned KG (...用日光晒干的茶，主要作为沱茶、紧茶、饼茶...) which is traditionally used (...传统普洱茶工序：杀青(生晒、锅炒)...) to make pressed pu-erh. The low temp and slow pace of this kill green method probably allows for a little but still significant amount of oxidation. Third, panned KG at lower temps are considered better, but with this process of KG, not all of the enzymes are eliminated (...度较低，叶温多在80℃以下，多酚氧化酶钝化较少...), thus "well-performed" panned KG in pu-erh only retards oxidation in the leaf to the point where the leaves can remain relatively green until it's pan dried or sun dried. This is significant, since enzymatic oxidation may be occuring even with cakes that have been pressed and completed. Finally, there is the matter of smell. To me, pu-erhs of any kind never really smells either like "vegetal" green tea or "sweet" oolong. I also remember reading somewhere that grassy or vegetal scents are not a sign of good pu-erh processing. Furthermore, there is always a hint of light floral and "buttery" nuances in the scent of my raw pu-erhs that reminds me of a certain pouchong I've had, telling me that pu-erh is not all "green". If it's does not smell green, and is not considered good to smell green, or does not look green, can this tea really be green? This being said, maybe the raw pu-erhs I have are all not too good. Maybe there is a study out there on the oxygenase activity in the processing steps of raw pu-erh, which can clear some of this up. Overall this has turned out to be more complicated then ever, and yes I agree with editing the withering part to allow for a caveat. Sjschen 22:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

But I think the key is that there is a crucial difference between the oxidation that occurs before ANY KG happens (i.e. in wilting) vs oxidation that takes place AFTER some KG has occurred (i.e. sun drying). Whereas the latter is the accepted as part of puerh production, the first variety happens much quicker (producing redness in leaves, among other things) and is said to destroy important molecules that may hinder future aging potential.MarshalN 10:22, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

In this case I may have slightly misunderstood the terminology of the processes. Assuming sun drying for for all processes and no prior processing of the fresh leaves, my understanding is that that sunned KG involves ONLY sunning the leaves (sun->knead->sun), that panned KG involves only pan heating the leaves (pan->knead->sun), and that baked KG involves only baking the leaves (bake->knead->sun). Do you mean that all forms of KG will always be in the form of panning, or artificially heating the unprocessed leaves (pan->knead->*something*) ? Before this discussion, my understanding of maocha processing from fresh leaves is sunWilt->panKG->knead->sunDry which changed to coolWilt->panKG->knead->sunDry with Mr. Chan's book pages, but now I have to say I'm sure anymore considering these different and conflicting views. It is interesting to note that in Puerh teapot mag. No15. the article describing the traditional method states that some red colour from oxidation is a feature of the traditonal method, and that it involves "cool wilting" the leaves (steps 2-3). Do you think this information is erroneous? The mag is the same publisher and images as in Mr. Chan's book. Sjschen 17:41, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe the whole wilting business is actually a Taiwanese way of making tea in general. From what I understand, the proper way to make puerh in the traditional style is pan-cooking, kneading, and then sun drying. It should all be done quickly, rather than through a long period of time. There will always be some redness involved in this process, since there will be redness from the time the leaves were picked to the pan, if nothing else. Wilting, however, creates artificial fermentation that, from what I understand, is not desirable. Wilting, however, is an integral portion of Taiwanese tea making, and it does make the tea less bitter, more aromatic, and some say age faster. The price for this, claims skeptics, is that it doesn't age nearly as well. Who to believe? I think nobody, Taiwanese, HKers, mainlanders included, know what it takes for a good puerh to become a good puerh. We're all still learning. MarshalN 04:32, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cantonese spelling

There are today official variants of the Pinyin spelling system for regional languages in China.

Official Cantonese language Pinyin should be used in:

"In the Cantonese language, it is known as po-lay (or bo-lay) tea."

If there is a previously established English rendering (such as "po-lay") this should also be indicated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.6.244.110 (talk) 08:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Historical "Pu-er Tea Company" with trade route to India

This article:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2583137,00.html

mentions:

"... retracing an ancient trans-Himalayan tea route ... the 1,400-mile Tea Horse Caravan Road from Deqin in Yunnan province, southwest China, to the Tibetan capital, Lhasa ... on ... to Nepal ... a group of travellers following the ancient Pu’er Tea Company trade route, where tea has been traded for horses for more than 1,000 years ..." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.6.244.110 (talk) 08:45, 4 February 2007 (UTC).

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