Talk:Psalms

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"Only a portion of the Book of Psalms claims David as its author. Other inspired poets in successive generations added now one now another contribution to the sacred collection, and thus in the wisdom of Providence it more completely reflects every phase of human emotion and circumstances than it otherwise could." -- who said this? If we're going to use a quote, we should include the source. -- Zoe

Also, michtam and shiggaion had "q.v." after them, which I removed. Can someone define them, please? -- Zoe

Psalms are used heavily in the Catholic and Orthodox hours, but I don't know if there is a wiki article on the hours (not sure what it would be called). I'd presume this is true for Anglican monastics as well.

Contents

[edit] Book of Psalms

Hi, I've just thought: wouldn't it be better to move the current page's contents to Book of Psalms, 'cause there are many psalms and this article deals only with some of them (as is honestly stated in the preamble). 62.118.157.5 20:40, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Probably not. The Psalms are different from the book. However, to agree with one of the above authors, we really should have an article on the Divine Office. -- Penta 19:44, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Numbering Standard

There appears to be a systemic bias to the Hebrew numbering. Can we establish a standard (both for here and for individual Psalm articles) that will show both Greek and Hebrew? For example, Psalm 22/23 instead of Psalm 23. We could also expand the table to show exactly where, for example, Hebrew Psalm 116 divides to make Greek Psalms 114 & 115. JHCC 16:58, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

If I am not mistaken, the accepted standard in academia is to cite Psalms either with the Hebrew alone, or with the Hebrew first and the Greek in parentheses. At least this is the method used in the literature I have seen. When citing Psalms 1-8, this is not necessary. --Jadorno 03:04, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Liturgy of the Hours

I changed the text regarding the Liturgy of the Hours to read "two or four week cycle." I believe this reflects more accurately the options available according to the General Instruction of the Liturgy of the Hours.

True, the General Instruction lists a four-week cycle (General Instruction 126). However, the original Liturgy included seven hours: vigils, lauds, terce, sext, none, vespers and compline. This practice was altered by the Second Vatican Council; the three daytime hours (terce, sext, and none) were combined into one hour of “midday prayer.” (General Instruction 76) The four-week cycle reflects only the "current psalmody," utilized by those who pray only one hour of the daytime prayers. [Vigils/lauds (morning prayer), terce/sext/none (midday prayer) and vespers/compline (evening prayer)]. (General Instruction 81)

The original practice of praying seven hours is retained in many monasteries under the direction of General Instruction 76. Those monasteries that utilize the seven-hour cycle (including the Abbey of Gethsemani, where I was a monk) pray the Liturgy in a two-week cycle, utilizing the “complementary psalmody.” (General Instruction 81) Reference here.

Thus, the Liturgy of the Hours may be licitly prayed in either a two or four week cycle, depending on whether the individual or community praying the liturgy utilizes a three or seven “hour” day. Essjay 05:23, May 25, 2005 (UTC)


You are right about what was the traditional number of hours: seven. But the arithmetic will seem strange to you. In your list you omitted the hour of Prime, and what you call Vigil was in fact called Matins. To keep the number seven, in line with Ps 118(MT 119):164 “Seven times a day I praise you”, Matins and Lauds were counted as a single hour.
The whole psalter was distributed in a one-week cycle, as I well remember. But in 1964, well before the actual revision of the Liturgy of the Hours (previously called the Breviary), Prime was suppressed and permission was given to recite only one of the hours of Terce, Sext and None. This involved omitting the psalms assigned to three of the shortest hours, so that the complete Psalter was no longer read during the years of this provisional arrangement..
The revision, as you know, distributed the Psalms over a four-week cycle. Some contemplatives preferred to say the whole Psalter each week. They had been doing so even during the years since the suppression of Prime, by using one or other of at least two new arrangements of the Psalms, different from what had been in the Roman Breviary. I know from experience that contemplative Benedictine nuns in Buenos Aires do use one of those arrangements, covering the whole Psalter in a single week.
I think it is quite possible that some religious use a two-week arrangement of the Psalms, but I have no knowledge of such an arrangement. Your description of the practice in Gethsemane Abbey does not make it clear that they do actually have a two-week cycle. You speak of the “complementary psalmody” of the Liturgy of the Hours. This consists merely of nine Psalms (119, 120, 121; 122, 123, 124; 125, 126, 127), with alternatives allowed for two of them. These are used by those who wish to celebrate more than one liturgical hour between morning and evening. Each of these Psalms also appears at least once within the hours that are obligatory for non-contemplatives. If Gethsemane Abbey does have a two-week cycle of the Psalter, this cannot be because of using these complementary Psalms in two of the three daytime hours. If the Abbey does have such a cycle, it must come from having at some hours, perhaps especially (cf. General Instruction of the Liturgy of the Hours, 70-73) at the hour known as the Office of Readings or the Vigil that may prolong it, more than the three psalms or canticles that are allotted to each hour in the four-week cycle. It is definitely so for the Argentine Benedictine nuns’ one-week cycle, and doubtless, for reasons of mathematics, it is necessary even for a two-week cycle – unless indeed the complementary psalms are not used for the extra two daytime hours, as is the case in the one-week cycles of which I know.
If you can obtain confirmation of actual practice of a genuine two-week cycle, the text of the article can be modified to say that contemplatives use a single-week of two-week cycle.
Lima 13:56, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Sorry for my carelessness. The reference you give in the article does state clearly that that the Trappists use a two-week cycle, without explaining how the Psalms are arranged within it.
Lima 14:00, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)


If you look here, you will find a table of which psalms are sung at which service in the Cistercian Office. This is from the Trappist monastery New Melleray Abbey and clearly shows a "genuine two-week cycle". JHCC 14:12, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've put the messages in proper chronological order. Please excuse this further instance of carelessness.
Lima 14:53, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Psalms in Islam

The Psalms, known as Zabur in Islam, are according to the book revealed by Allah the Holy Qur'an, one of the holy books revealed to humanity. To muslims, they are as important as the Torah and the Gospels. In Islam, it is considered that David is associated with the Psalms in the same way as Moses to the Torah, Jesus to the Gospels, or Muhammad to the Qur'an. Still according to the Qur'an, the Psalms are the holy book of the Sabians who are considered as of People of the book in the same way as Jews and Christians. icewizard 07:00, June 17, 2005 (GMT)

I think you should wikify and add this text to the article. I would do it myself, but as a personal rule, I never add anything to an article that I don't know about on my own. Essjay · talk 08:21, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
I put it here because I haven't done much research to densify the article. I didn't do much research in the Holy Qur'an to give a plain explanation and association between the Psalms and the Zabur. I understood it is true, but if I can, I will make a nice section for this in the article when I have enough references. By the way I found a new resource on the internet with the website http://www.al-kitab.org/zabur.html icewizard 02:36, June 18, 2005 (GMT)

[edit] Categorization

I like the idea of a [[Category:Psalms]], but I think that it is being misapplied here. SimonP is incorrect when he says that the other categories are subcategories of [[Category:Psalms]]. In fact, psalms are a subset of Jewish texts (the Talmud is not a psalm) and a subset of Old Testament books (the Song of Songs is not a psalm). There is religious music and chant which is not psalmody. However, categorizing Psalm 151 or Psalm 23 within [[Category:Psalms]] is perfectly correct. JHCC (talk) 13:38, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

JHCC, I think you hit the nail on the head with regard to how this article should be categorized. Wesley 16:15, 11 July 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Book of Psalms

Is there a reason why the name of this article does not start with "Book of"? All the other articles in the Old Testament category start that way. If there are no objections, I'll have it changed.

See the very first topic on this page. And not all of them start this way: Ecclesiastes and the Song of Solomon at least do not start with "Book of".
In my view, in this particular case the title you propose would be ambiguous. The other books of the Old Testament are not usually bound seperately, but Psalms is. "Book of Psalms" could easily refer to a Psalter. "Psalms" by itself is clearer, I think. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:41, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
I concur with the two preceding comments. JHCC (talk) 21:14, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Those were both my comments above. Please don't assume the indents are incorrect. I just think paragraphs are more readable when there's a space between them. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:54, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Sorry about that. I misread the edit history and thought that the first paragraph was from an anon who hadn't signed their comment. Forgive me, brother; your way is better than mine. JHCC (talk) 13:41, 25 August 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Chapters

The current statement "It is incorrect to speak of these [the psalms] as chapters, since their individuality antedates by at least 1500 years the division of the other books of the Bible into chapters" seems a bit dogmatic. So what if the chapter divisions follow more ancient practice? I'd propose: "The Psalms are often referred to as chapters, though their individuality antedates by at least 1500 years the division of the other books of the Bible into chapters." --agr 03:59, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Dogmatic? It's simply correct. In actual practice I'd dispute your "often" anyway, since I can't say I've ever heard it in any church I've ever belonged to. It's always "Psalm 23" or "the twenty-third Psalm", not "Psalms, chapter 23". The point is that these are not chapters as in the other books i.e. thematic or narrative divisions whenever devised, but that each psalm is an individual composition. TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:01, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
The fact that Psalms aren't referred to as chapters in the churches you attend doesn't make the usage incorrect. A Google search on "psalms chapter" (quotes included) turns up plenty of examples. (Google says there are about 276,000; I didn't check all of them). Here is one example from the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops: http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm23.htm where it actually says "Psalms, Chapter 23". The Wikipedia articles Bible and Chapters and verses of the Bible refer to psalms as chapters. And quotations from the Book of Psalms are invariably given in standard chapter and verse form (e.g. Psalms 23:4 "Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, ..."), where the chapter number is the Psalm number. If you have some authority for your position, please cite it. I'd accept "The Psalms are sometimes referred to as chapters,..." if you are more comfortable with that. --agr 10:57, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
"Some authority" for what part of "my position"? That the Psalms are individual compositions is a longstanding tradition dating from Judaism; I'm certain there are numerous references for this and the Psalms represent themselves that way. If you meant the use of "chapter", then I was just reporting my own experience in the Reformed, Catholic and Orthodox traditions. I have no more references for it than you do for yours. (A Google search cannot be made to stand as a statistical usage analysis.) But yes, "sometimes" is perfectly acceptable: I never said they're never called "chapters". And of course the standard chapter:verse notation style is very convenient however the divisions originated, which is why it's become universal. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:40, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
I think we ought to be able to agree on a text. How does this strike you? "When the Bible was divided into chapters each Psalm was assigned its own chapter, enumerated according to the Psalm numbers. Psalms are sometimes referred to as chapters, though their individuality antedates the chapter assignments by at least 1500 years." --agr 23:19, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ashkenazi Transliteration

I've made a perfunctory effort to excise some of the transliteration yielding Ashenazi pronunciation ("Shabbos" changes to "Shabbat," "Shachris" to "Shachrit"). Probably a good idea throughout Wikipedia's Judaism-related pages, except where such pronunciation is appropriate (e.g., in reference to Yiddish or particularly Ashkenazi concepts). -- Light is Sown (12/13/05)

[edit] What about the music?

very little is said in the article about the musical aspect of the psalms. when was it written? was it handed down aurally? are there many versions? do the jewish, christian, etc, versions differ musically? i'm asking because i don't know.

There are Cantillation marks in the Hebrew text that are quite old, but it is far from certain that they reflect the original music of ancient times. The Hebrew text of the Psalms suggest several different musical forms. There is a long tradition in Western music of setting Psalms to music, with many different compositions for the same Psalm. Also see Gregorian chant. --agr 11:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
And in Eastern Christianity, the Psalms are often sung within the system of the Octoechos. The exact melodies and styles of singing vary by local chant tradition. I'm not sure whether this is really worth presenting in the article, because there's very little that's specific to the Psalms in the way they're sung. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:19, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Psalm forms

I have added a heading for the main psalm forms in anticipation that three of my students will add the articles that they have written on them. Others may fill in the other categories as necessary. RGW 02:38, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Creating a Wikipedia page for every psalm

Is the above task feasible? Several psalms (like Psalm 82 and Psalm 14) redirect to the Psalms article page (while others, like Psalm 119, do not). It might be useful to create a sourced analysis of every psalm, historical context, author, debate over author, and other such things. I can gather the resources to do it. Is it a good idea? Gracenotes T § 00:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Why not do one and we can see what it looks like?--agr 01:16, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Over time, the "See also" section will become too long if it includes a link to every Psalm that has a wikipedia page (eg Psalm 119. May I suggest that the links to these Psalms be replaced a single statement, along the lines of, "For wikipedia pages on individual Psalms, please see. Or better still, perhaps we can start a "list of" page, ie: List of Psalms? Bernard S. Jansen 10:09, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I've half answered my own question. If you go to now, you'll see that all the Psalms are listed in order. I've done this by 'piping' the category tags (some had already been done). I still think that links to individual Psalms should be removed from the "See also" section. Bernard S. Jansen 06:05, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kathisma table

I moved Kathisma table in the Eastern Christian section to its own page at Kathisma. MishaPan 00:24, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

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