Talk:Prunus salicina

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Since this plant is originally from China, you might talk to the folks at the Wikipedia:China-related topics notice board to get the Chinese name, etc. Also, it looks like the German Wikipedia has a couple of more nice photos (see [1]). Finally, I looked through a couple of my reference books on Japanese poetry, but couldn't find any examples of the use of Sumomo in Japanese poetry. I would assume that it is used both as a subject of waka (tanka), and as a kigo for renga and haiku, but that's just my guess. If you know more, you should probably add it to the article. BlankVerse ∅ 14:28, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sumomo is not a particularly popular subject in Japanese poetry. It is popular in Chinese poetry. --163.139.215.193 12:32, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] removal of several language references

I have removed names in various languages. First, the Chinese character 李 refers genus prunus in general (see zh:李属) so detailed information about it, especially about sirnames, does not belong here. For Japanese and Korean, they are linked from 'in other languages'. If those names are not common in English, they should be dealt in dictionaries rather than encyclopedia. --Kusunose 10:32, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I also have removed the korean language link, as it linked to genus prunus and no artile about prunus salicina (자두나무) is created yet. --Kusunose 10:45, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Restore Asian info., which is extremely important. Character "Li" may refer to "Prunus" genus but it also refers to this very species. More info. is better than less & editors worked hard to add this by User:Badagnani

More is better only if it's relevant. Names in several languages are relevant so I should not remove them, sorry. As for Asean surnames, I don't think they are relevant. This very species is called 日本李, Japanese plum. According to Chinese Wikipedia and English Wiktionary, 李 refers plums in general; Chinese article zh:李 links to plum (genius Prunus subgenius Prunus) and states 'Prunus salicina (Japanese plum 日本李)', zh:李属 links to geneus Prunus, wiktionary:李 says its primary meaning is plum. --Kusunose 06:03, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's in dispute that, in ancient Chinese poetry, when 李 is mentioned it is Prunus salicina that is being referred to (not "ume" or any of the European species of plum, which are usually larger and sweeter). The name "Japanese plum" is now used to name P. salicina because, like tofu, it was adopted by the Japanese people and spread around the world by them; thus it is now named "Japanese plum" (even by the Chinese). Badagnani 16:40, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I'll bet "日本李" in the Chinese article zh:李 is a word-for-word translation of the common English name of the plant, "Japanese plum". I believe Prunus salicina is called just "李" or "中国李" in China. Some articles in Chinese Wikipedia are poorly translated from the English version. Correct me if I was wrong. --163.139.215.193 15:23, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I think this is correct too, but I'm not from there. It would be good to get some input from people in China, but unfortunately Wikipedia has been blocked to all Internet users there for several months now. Badagnani 20:12, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I've deleted the "日本李" reference in the Chinese name under etymology. There isno other source for this but zh.wiki, and the context in that article (zh:李) seems to indicate that it is a translation of the English common name. --Sumple (Talk) 09:27, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

That is likely the case; the Chinese appear to have adopted their Chinese-language species name for this plant, "日本李" (instead of using Latin names, because that would require using the roman alphabet), from the English name rather than the Latin name. So in Chinese there is the common name 李 and the species name "日本李." Badagnani 09:59, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

What? There is no other source other than zh.wiki which says that this is the species name. --Sumple (Talk) 11:05, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I did a google search for "Prunus salicina" with "李", and the following results appeared:

zh:李 says "Prunus salicina" is 日本李;

zh:李属 (i.e. Prunus) says "Prunus salicina" is 李 or 中国李

eFloras - Chinese Plant Names says "Prunus salicina" is 李

every other of the first three pages of reuslts call it either "李" or "中国李".

As I said, I think zh.wiki's 李 article is in error as judged by the overwhelming balance of sources, and I am editing accordingly. --Sumple (Talk) 11:11, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Our sister project has "日本李" and I trusted them on that. The overwhelming majority of Chinese speakers (i.e. PRC) and botanists cannot use more than one Chinese name for this species, and "日本李" seems to be it. What do the primary Chinese botany sites have for the species name? eFloras can't be right because the genus and species names can't be exactly the same; the species name has to have some modifier. We are not talking common names, we are talking the scientific/species name. The article already says that its common name is 李. Badagnani 11:19, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

eFlores does not say the genus and the species are the same. The genus Prunus is called 李属 ("Li-related"), and the species is called 李 (Li).

And yes, this happens a lot in Chinese scientific names. Mao (猫, cat) is in 貓屬 (Mao genus, or "Mao-related", felis), which is in 猫科 (Mao family, or "Mao-category", Felidae).

Again, only zh:李 says it is 日本李. All other sources, including zh:李属 , say that Prunus salicina is simply 李 or 中国李. --Sumple (Talk) 11:28, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

It makes sense, but still there is the question of why the writer(s) at Chinese Wikipedia used 日本李, other than using the English common name. I really would like to know what source they used for this. We always have to use the best, most authoritative sources for our articles. Badagnani 11:35, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

No sure, but I thought I'll just give you a few more links: this is the google search I did [2], and here's an academic journal article that calls it 中国李 [3], and here's a link from the Department of Forestry that uses 李 [4].

My theory is that whoever wrote it on zh.wiki just directly translated from en.wiki. Given the small size of the community over there, and the probable lack of botanical experts, it's stayed that way ever since. --Sumple (Talk) 11:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree with Sumple. --163.139.215.193 17:15, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Subheadings

Why reduce the font size of the subheadings? I don't think that looks good. Badagnani 23:42, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My edits re cultivation

Badagnani: "Large variety" is intended to be "many different". Maybe it should be "Diverse varieties" to make it clear.

I mentioned "other species" because I'm not sure that all the fruits that are called li are Prunus salicina. But - you are right. This is about Prunus salicina, notli.

Thanks for your comments re: Australia. Yes it was rather ambiguous. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sumple (talk • contribs) 04:00, 26 January 2007 (UTC).

I did a Google photo search for P. salicina and some of them looked like plums I've seen in the grocery store which I'd assumed were all domestica (i.e. the European sweet variety). Some looked like what I would call prune plums, others like the red-colored slightly tart ones. I don't recall seeing these marketed as Asian, Chinese, Japanese, or whatever, though. I'd thought that the salicina fruits were tiny, like ume fruits. So, it could very well be that some of the plums we get in supermarkets in North America are salicina cultivars. Badagnani 04:04, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

You've made a very astute observation. You are correct; the juicy, lightly-flavored fruit that is commonly sold as "plum" in the United States (or at least the western United States) is actually a cultivar of Prunus salicina, the Japanese/Asian plum. The European plum, Prunus domestica, produces the rather dry fruit with a concentrated flavor that is generally known in the United States as "(Italian) prune." Ebizur 07:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, there are several varieties of plum we get here in the U.S. (I don't know which is which species):

• • The small, egg-shaped ovoid kind with mild, sweet flesh that is labeled "prune plum" (is it also called "damson plum"?)
  • The large, round, nearly black kind that has a reddish-tinged flesh and is sweet, but with a slight tartness, particularly in the skin
  • The medium-sized kind that is fairly bright red speckled all over with yellow flecks, that is sweet but has a lot of tartness, particularly in the skin
  • The kind that is medium or medium-small, round with a slight point, which is a medium light red all over and with a sweet taste
  • The green kind (usually with a slight point at the end) Badagnani 08:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand how many of these varieties could be P. salicina, as I always thought the Chinese li was a very small/tiny fruit. I guess it's like dogs: you can have both chihuahuas and great danes? Badagnani 08:04, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think there is probably a great variety among salicina cultivars, just as there is great variety among domestica cultivars. But I am almost certain that most of the extremely watery/juicy varieties that are marketed as "plum" in the United States are salicina cultivars, or at least heavily mixed hybrids of salicina and domestica. Most of the fruits that I have eaten knowing they were from a Prunus domestica tree have had very flavorful, relatively dry flesh. The salicina fruits seem to not have much flavor, but are very juicy. Ebizur 08:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

As for those green plums with a slight point at the bottom end, those are called green gage, and I am almost certain that they are an unusually colored cultivar of European Prunus domestica. Note how their flesh is relatively dry and flavorful. Ebizur 08:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

My favorite is the red kind with gold specks, because it's very tart (while also sweet). I'd say that I don't like the kinds with the dry flesh, so the ones I prefer must all be P. salicina, if what you say is correct. I'd say that the very large black kind (with reddish flesh) is watery, but the gold-flecked red kind isn't very watery, with biting tartness yet sweetness.

I think that the red kind with gold specks and the black kind with watery, reddish flesh are both cultivars or hybrids of Japanese Prunus salicina. Please check out the information on this website for more details. Ebizur 08:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

By the way, if you can find it, the French jelly company St. Dalfour has just come out with French prunes--they come in a glass jar and are huge, with pits inside. They're touted as the world's best prunes and I agree. Not sure which species or cultivar they are, though. Badagnani 08:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The plums that are used for drying (to make prunes) are all cultivars of European Prunus domestica. Japanese Prunus salicina does not have a sugar content high enough to allow drying without first slicing the fruit open, removing the pit, and flaying the flesh of the fruit. I'll have to look for those French prunes from St. Dalfour, though; their jams are always wonderful, so I suppose their prunes should be good, too! Ebizur 08:28, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The "Sorting Prunus names" site says that the Agen plums St. Dalfour uses are P. domestica. They go for $3.50 a jar, containing about 15 prunes, but I can't help but eat all of them within 1-2 days. The same goes for the newly available Marcona Spanish almonds that have just shown up in the stores. Badagnani 08:36, 28 March 2007 (UTC)