Talk:Proto-Indo-European religion

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[edit] The sumerians?

I've noticed, several times, that the world tree + slaying of snake/dragon-myth(s) were very common among the sumerians. If people are sure that the axis mundi-myth is protoindoeuropean; doesn't that mean that the sumerians were indoeuropeans too? But the fact, though, is that they weren't at all - rather Dravidian, or something. Another alternative - the indoeuropeans (and the semitic people of akkad) copied the sumerians, and thereafter spread the myth? Or mayby the myth is just fundamental for most pagan people...//Charlotte

Considering we have an article on this, and one on Proto-Indo-European (although that is currently part of Indo-European languages), I think it might be wise to make an article series on the Indo-Europeans: their culture, religion, language, etc. Any thoughts? -Branddobbe 08:48, Mar 9, 2004 (UTC)

I have made an article on Indo-European which I have intended to be a neutral article giving links to both the language article and the religion article. What do you think? Wiglaf 10:37, Mars 9, 2004 (UTC)

Wiglaf, I've rewritten the first paragraph, splitting it up into a few, trying to provide a sufficiently balanced point of view, indicating both the difficulties in reconstructing such a primeval religion along with the positive evidence for it. I hope you like it. Martijn faassen 21:35, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I like it. Wiglaf 08:37, Mar 30, 2004 (CET)

We the Indo-Europeans, closely subsequent descendents of the original Takers, created our wheat-goddess that rewarded us with plentiful harvest and our thunder-god that punished us with lightning bolts, thus ensuring our destiny forever battling nature. We ate from the Apple of Discord and spread our totalitarian agricultural "civilization" to unsuspecting peoples who had previously let the old spirits govern their lives. Our legacy includes writing, commerce, cities, automobiles, recorded music, wealth, famine, democracy, politics, science, genocide, philosophy, logic and mathematics, which we will one day gladly forsake for the old spirits.--Georgopoulos, 22 June 2004

The articles on Danu(both of them) suggest a relationship. The same goes for Ymir/Yama. - JeffBobFrank 05:44, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Missing the thought-process here

The results are less interesting than the techniques for arriving at them would be, which are scarcely offered. The inclusion of Eos-Auroroa-Eostre (!) shows how easy it is to stray into fantasies in this kind of speculation. Can this entry be improved, or is the idea basically flawed? --Wetman 12:35, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

hm, certainly you accept Eos-Aurora? The Eostre connection is tenuous, of course, but not extremely far-fetched, in my view. dab (ᛏ) 09:22, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Why is Zeus, rather than Uranus, associated with Dyaeus Pita? Uranus and Dyaeus Pita are both gky gods from whom the other gods are descended, and both are married to an earth goddess. - JeffBobFrank

Presumably the name "Zeus" is related to "Dyeus" and "Uranus" isn't.
'Strue. The genitive form of Zeus is "Dios", that of Ouranos is Ouranou. BTW, I'm going to remove some of the mythology stuff that belongs to comparative religion rather than Indo-European myth. The Dogandpony 21:52, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plthivi Mh2ter (Tkon)?

Who are Plthivi Mh2ter and Tkon. I've never heard of them, and google searches for Plthivi or Tkon don't shed any light on the matter. I assume that Plthivi is a theoretical Proto-Indo-European name, but the only sources on the web that seems to mention her is this one (or ones that are identical to this one though I'm not sure who copied whom). Tkon gets lots of hits, but none of them seem to have anything to do with an earth goddess. Are there any sources for this page?--Heathcliff 03:23, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

yes, they are the reconstructed forms of Sanskrit "prthivi mata" and Sanskrit ksham / Hittite takkan, Greek khthon, respectively. tkōn should properly be dgh'ōm, a very early ("Indo-Hittite") form the more familiar PIE form would be gh'ðōm. You can only find so much specialist information with google, sometimes you have to resort to books :) dab (ᛏ) 09:17, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Obviously. That is why I ask for a source. You seem to be knowledgeable about these matters; could you please provide sources for this information?--Heathcliff 22:26, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
do you mean the gh'ðōm or the dgh'ōm form? the former is in Indogermanisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch (or any etymological dictionary of the languages mentioned above). The form before thorn-metathesis will be in any introduction to Indo-European studies. There is not really much controversy here. Accounts of how the metathesis took place exactly, or whether it should be called a metathesis, will vary, but the basic facts are pretty much universally recognized. dab (ᛏ) 11:00, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
I'd just like a source for the information on this page. You seem to know a lot about this subject, you could just let me know where you got the information if you want. If it's universally recognized, I don't see why providing a source should be to much trouble. Could you please provide at least one source on proto-indo-european relgion that supports to information on this page? Thank you for mentioning Indogermanisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch, but it's hard to get useful information out of dictionary. I have yet to find anything in it on Plthivi, Dghom, or Tkon. Also the Wilipdeia entry on it says it is outdated, and a review of it on Amazon makes the following claim:
In no case can the materials in Pokorny's IEW be taken as raw data. Onomatopoetic words are over-represented, and unfounded etymologies or improbable semantic groupings are not seldom. Using this material for statistical purposes, or browsing it with an interest in general semantics, or picking roots or words in order to compare them with words of other language families, is bound to be very misleading.
Is it still considered reliable?--Heathcliff 13:12, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
look, exactly which point do you want to have referenced? I'll quote a coupe of works on IE myhtology, but are you interested in a particular point? Do you want information on a particular form, or rather on mythological implications? When I say the gdhom word will be in any introduction, I'm serious, it's one of the most widely discussed and best understood words, there is no way a basic introduction will miss it. I am not working on this article full time, you know. I don't know if you are disputing something in particular, or if you're just curious, but can't be bothered to go to the library yourself. dab (ᛏ) 10:16, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
A source on the dghom word would be fine since that is what I've been asking about, but more general information on the infortmation on this page would be useful as well. You say that gdhom would be discussed in any introduction. That's great, that's exactly what I'm looking for: could you please name just one of these introductions? Also I was interested in your opinion of whether or not Indogermanisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch was reliable. Do you have an opinion on this? If you have IEW could you look and see what page gdhom is on and let me know. I still haven't found it, but it may just be spelled differently.--Heathcliff 12:57, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I don't want to sound impatient, but you did realize the IEW article points to the Leiden online version, didn't you? Here is a link for you, [1] (I'm sorry, but you'll have to scroll down yourself). Pokorny is quite reliable, and to be taken seriously. He doesn't have much Anatolian material, and doesn't accept laryngeals, so you'll need additional resources to come up with a "contemporary" opinion (e.g. Rix' lexicon of the PIE verb, and Mayrhofer's Indo-Aryan dictionary), but it's a very good place to start. Concerning introductions, there are a couple of good ones, but I'd recommend the one by Oswald Szemerényi (English translation 1996). dab (ᛏ) 12:57, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I do not need a link to IEW. When I said I could not find dghom (or any of the other spellings you've used) in IEW it was because I had looked. What did you think I was talking about?? Thank you for citing Oswald Szemerényi. I'll see if I can find his book.--Heathcliff 19:44, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
and I gave you a link, directly to the lemma g'hðem-, g'hðom-, I mean, what more can I do? They transliterate the palatal as g^ rather than g', but that can hardly be the problem, no? (c.f. PIE) dab (ᛏ) 10:27, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, your reply made it sound like it was a link to IEW, you didn't mention it was a link to the page itself. I have to say at this point I don't see the reasoning to lead to the conclusion that the Proto-Indo-Europeans worshipped an earth goddess who is a fore-runner to various bronze age godesses. It seems a linguistic link between the words for earth as been used to reconstruct a theoretical proto-indo-european word for earth and that the idea that Mother Earth was worshiped as a godess just seems to be slapped on at the end. But I don't actually know that this is the case. There may be ample evidence of a proto-indo-european earth goddess. I've just got to find it one way or the other. I've found a couple of books that aren't nearly as outdated as the two you suggested, and I may order them since I haven't found them locally. Perhaps then I'll be able to get some answers to my questions. It may be some time before I can get back to this page, but hopefully I'll be able to add to it and provide some actual sources.--Heathcliff 13:00, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

btw, "Plthivi" is really an epitheton. it means as much as "She who is flat", more or less "the wide expanse", but female. Dghom otoh is the proper word for "Earth", but not particularly when imagined as a female goddess, just "Earth". I suppose gods needed to be addressed obliquely, so it would be blasphemous to address a libation to "Dghom" (*speculation alert*) dab (ᛏ) 11:03, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Plth2vih2 Mh2ter (Dg'hōm) is believed to have been the name of (Mother) Earth, see Prthivi. 
Another name of the Indo-European Mother-Earth would be *Dheghom Mater, as in Greek Demeter, 
Albanian Dhe Motë, Avestan Zamyat, Slavic Mat' Zemlija, Lithuanian Zemyna, Latvian Zemes Mate.

I wonder whether *Plthivi really is a more plausible proto-word than *Dheghom Mater, considering the latter has a lot more attested cognates. 惑乱 分からん 15:53, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proto-Indo-European religion vs. Indo-European religion

I've noticed that Indo-European religion diverts to here. Wouldn't it make more sense for these two articles be seperate from each other in the same way Indo-European languages is a seperate article from Proto-Indo-European language? This page would continue to deal with the reconstruction of hypothetical common roots between individual attested belief systems, wheras Indo-European religion would be a more general article on the attested belief systems themselves. Would this be a valid (from a "scholarly" point of view) distinction to make? --86.135.217.213 04:04, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

No - as per Indo-European, "Indo-European" is sometimes used in the meaning of "PIE", e.g. "the Indo-Europeans domesticated the horse". There is no such thing as a "Indo European family of religions", except you mean the various religions of Indo-European speakers, linked to from this article (is Celtic Christianity or Germanic Christianity an Indo-European or a Semitic religion??) -- the term "Indo-European religion/mythology" typically refers to the subject of this article, the religion/mythology of the Proto-Indo-Europeans. dab (ᛏ) 09:40, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] god vs. God

Satanael, we have the convention to use uppercase God for the monotheistic entity, and lowercase god for polytheistic male deities. Please use lowercase god here, since PIE religion was clearly polytheistic. dab (ᛏ) 13:54, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Did I use God with a capital "G"? If I did, then it wasn't intentional and was an "editorial"(pun intended) oversight, as I'm quite aware of the fact that PIE religion was polytheistic. :) Satanael 15:12, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Books

I was wondering, do anyone here know the best books to buy to get a general overview of Indo-European scholarship and studies, its religion in particular, and as well as of the current discussions in the field. Those here who edit this article, as well as the other articles on the Indo-European topic seem pretty knowledgeable in the field, and I'd like to atleast get an overview of the general consensus, especially when it comes to the different gods of the various Indo-European mythologies and the deities within the PIE pantheon from which they originated. It would be nice if, atleast one, contains info that show how various deities and spirits are connected to other Indo-European cognates and counterparts, and if it contains any archaeology(as I'm going to study anthropology, I consider at least some archaeology a must). I'm particulary interested when it comes to deities such as Dyeus, Perkwunos, Paxuson, as well as any info on the god of death, as well as any possible cognate to Celtic Cernunnos. And preferably not any of those heartattack-providing 100$ tomes. I've looked around for a number of books, but I'm not sure what the best ones to get are. I realize that this may be asking to much, but as I'd really like to know more about it, I would appreciate any help. Thanks in advance. Satanael 22:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

A Tripod site does not constitute adequate referencing, no matter how good it is. Satanael's question (in Books, above) is a very good one and I would also be interested in having it answered. I know Jared Diamond's 'The Third Chimpanzee' is where I was first exposed to my basic knowledge of PIE, but that isn't an appropriate resource either--it's a book about evolution. Placing the request for sources at the head of the document is far more likely to attract someone who knows what they are doing. Certain editors seem to want to keep it at the bottom of the page, presumably because they view this page as "their own". Fine, whatever. Have fun. The Dogandpony 06:31, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Precisions about modifications that I have made

Beside *Peltawi, I have added her another name *Dheghom *mater (*dhghom) [cf, "Indo-european vocabular" by Xavier Delamarre] and other gods, sun-god and moon-god(dess).

"Poseidon" as the "husband of the earth" or "lord of earth" is absolutely not sure. Another etymology would "master of the waters". Greek "potis" means "husband, lord, master" and eveng "god" as the feminine form Potnia for goddesses in mycenaean religion. Then "potis-don" is the "potis" of the don. "don" may refer to indo-européen *danu, "river". Then "potidon/poseidon" would be "the master of the rivers", "the master of the waters", become "the god of sea". As the old Neptune in Roma was not originally a god of sea but the god of the lakes, sources and waters.

[edit] Merge

I started to merge this article 2 Aryan religion, but after realizing how active it is, decided to discuss it 1st. Aryan religion (970) gets far more google hits than Proto-Indo-European religion (561), which is rather a clunky name. Indo-European religion (981) does slightly better, but I prefer Aryan religion because it is short and sweet.

Either which one, they should all go to the same spot. Sam Spade 16:09, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Erm... they're clearly different things. The term Proto-Indo-European specifies the language and culture of the common ancestor of various languages; Indo-Aryan is a subgroup of this. The Indo-Iranian term Aryan is already overloaded in Zoroastrianism, Vedic civilization and C19-20th definitions of race. Conflating it with the Proto-Indo-European religion implies a sense of identity that isn't proven or even appropriate to this religion. Generally, using the term Aryan is outmoded or minority, with similar problems to the romantic use of Achaean as a Greek dialect. Read thoroughly the article Aryan, especially the sections on Linguistic Terminology and beyond.

Even if they were the same, I don't think you could make a decision on definition based on a Google war. Perhaps Aryan religion could have a more explicit link, to Proto-Indo-European religion with an explanation of its difficult usage.

--Mark 19:46, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

As the above editor said, they are two different things - Aryan religion is a descendent of Proto-Indo-European religion. Suggesting they should be merged is like saying that Proto-Indo-European language should be merged with English language because there are 85,900,000 google results for "English Language" but only 15,100 for "Proto-Indo-European language". --Krsont 18:15, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

there should be no "Aryan religion" article. Either the intended meaning is "Proto-Indo-Iranian religion", or "Indo-Iranian religion" (including historical descendants). The article fails to show evidence that the term is in use at all. I'll make it a dab page. dab (ᛏ) 19:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources?

It amazes me that we have such a complex article devoid of all references (not including a side note reference). Can some of the original contributers of the article come forward to provide sources? It's sort of decrediting the article to leave it referenceless.--The ikiroid (talk/parler/hablar/paroli/说/話) 22:15, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Merge

I think this page should be merged with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesir-Asura_correspondence

[edit] How shall I read "Hors and Messiatz"

Please, can somebody check and correct this Russianized form of the Proto-Slavic deities, if they really existed (I am a Slavist but have never heard of them, however, it is possible that they were preserved until latest among Eastern Slavs). In the article, the Russianized name of the moon is wrongly put as "messiatz", whereas it should be *měsęcь. At first, it reminded me of Messiah! Messiatz (mesjac) means 'moon' in modern Russian. The Proto-Slavic form of the word was, *měsęcь. There is a generally accepted "scientific" phonetic transcription for Proto-Slavic language, which is based on the modern Czech and Polish orthographies, including two Cyrillic letters (ъ, ь). This transcription contains no TZ, IA and double SS!!! There is no need to discover America, therefore, because it has already been discovered! I was able to recognize *měsęcь in this MESSIATZ, however, what HORS is and how should it be read I have NO IDEA!

people keep adding ill informed stuff here. It's quite bad. I've removed this particular instance, but feel free to correct other dubious passages yourself. dab (ᛏ) 10:35, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Hors is not a Slavic name, but probably Sarmatian or Scythian. While Mjesec is simply the name of Moon in (most) Slavic languages, and was not a name of a true diety of Proto-Slavic pantheon, the name of Hors is mentioned amongst gods of Primary Chronicle, and in Tale of Igor's Campaign. He was probably adopted in East Slavic pantheon from their Iranian speaking neighboors. --Hierophant 18:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Hors is in russian "Xopc" (Khors) [bulgarian Хърс] and indeed seems to come from iranian.

Voir aussi http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A5%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%81 Messiatz is a russian deity as here: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/m/myesyats.html "Myesyats" is on this site. I have probably written the french transcription. Myesyats is also in this list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_god

[edit] About the Serpent...

Under mythology, there's a large paragraph that lists many of the different god vs. serpent stories. It's followed by this little bit:

"The myth symbolized a clash between forces of order and chaos (represented by the serpent), and the god or hero would always win.[4] It is therefore most probable that there existed some kind of dragon or serpent, possibly with multiple heads and likely linked with the god of underworld and/or waters, as serpentine aspects can be found in many chthonic, aquatic Indo-European deities..."

I might be a bit confused, but this part in bold seems to me a claim that dragons-type serpents actually existed in real life in ancient times! I could be reading this wrong, but that's what it's saying to me. Would anyone like to clarify (and hopefully clear up the meaning of the text as well)? T. S. Rice 03:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Well, since more-less the entire article deals with theoretichal reconstruction of hypothetical pantheon, it seems natural to me people reading it would assume the quoted paragraph refers to existance of belief into, not the existance of acctual dragon or serpent. --Hierophant 06:32, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I suppose that makes sense. Text might best be changed itself, though... T. S. Rice 04:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't avoid reacting on that certain paragraph either - the Axis mundi-myth is, atleast in my eyes, clearly meant to be interpreted as symbolic; and symbolic only (slaying of dragon = creating order/control. Great sea/water = subconsciousness etc.)! Maybe it would be a good idea to change the paragraph, to prevent further misunderstandings? //Charlotte

[edit] Explain some listings

Could someone please illustrate specifically how the theology and practices of the Armenian Orthodox UNIQUELY reflect the Armenian interpretatin of PIE religion?

Could someone please illustrate specifically how the theology and practices of the Greek Orthodox UNIQUELY reflect the Greek interpretatin of PIE religion?

Could someone please illustrate specifically how the theology and practices of the Roman Catholic Church (in, let us say, Boston, Massachussetts) UNIQUELY reflect the "Italic" interpretatin of PIE religion?

Could someone please illustrate specifically how the theology and practices of the Russian Orthodox UNIQUELY reflect the "Slavic" interpretatin of PIE religion?

Were these listings just a matter of mindless inclusion. Let's see the actual parallels here. Dogface 20:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

No church is just the official hierarchy, theology and established practice it presents itself to be. Popular Christianity shows extreme variations betwen various nations and/or ethnic groups (those who are Christian, of course); the choice of saints, popular beliefs & prayers, various symbols/practices at established rituals such as baptism/marriage/funeral, etc. Many of these are Christian continuations of rituals and tradions of earlier, pre-Christian religions and mythologies, which survived Christianization and blended in nicely into the symbolism and practice of this new religious system. While I am too tired to give you an example for every question you have asked, just consider the fact that one of the many titles of the Roman Catholich pope is pontifex maximus, which was also the title for the high priests of pagan Rome. If such a syncretism of religions can exist at the very level of the highest priests, then surely much more of it exists at lower levels of popular beliefs and folk religions. Thus, Christianity of various nations in the Old World is as much of a continuation of older pagan mythologies as they temsevles were a continuation of some common PIE religion. --Hierophant 21:54, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
"Too tired" to give examples? That's a spectacularly MISERABLE attitude to bring to an encyclopedia. Yeah, sure, make all kinds of claims, but examples? Who needs examples in an encyclopedia? That's SILLY! Examples and sources in an ENCYCLOPEDIA? The very IDEA!? What a silly though--giving specific examples to back up claims made in an encyclopedia. No, no examples should be given. Just flat claims. That's all that's needed. Yup, that's it. No examples are EVER needed in an encyclopedia. All you do is cite a single title and then indulge in a lazy rhetorical trick, but you're "too tired" to give any real examples. I think you've pretty much proven my point. Dogface 14:40, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I was too tired because I wrote that late at night and I was sleepy, but somehow I still managed to write you down an anwser in a decent tone without getting all cranky about it; which, apperently, some of us are unable to do even when they are completly awake. Read the following articles (and a few books would not hurt also, I sugest Uspenskij studies in particular): Christianization, Christianized myths and imagery, Christianised rituals, Christianised sites, St Elias, St George, St Nicholas, Slavic mythology, Perun, and in fact most other articles about major Slavic gods. There. Happy? --Hierophant 17:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
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