Talk:Pronunciation of Ancient Greek in teaching
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[edit] NPOV
This article makes no mention of the fact that the so-called reconstructed pronunciation of ancient Greek has been disputed by advocates of the historical Greek pronunciation since the time that Greece became and independent state. The so-called reconstructed pronunciation of Latin is also the subject of dispute because like the reconstructed pronunciation of Greek it is an ethnocentric theory (centred on the modern pronunciation Germanic launguages such as English) invented by mainly English academics which totally ignores the pronunciation of Greek and Latin as spoken by native born speakers (eg. native Greeks and Italians and the tradition of the Church).
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ancient_Greek_phonology --Thrax 19:07, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
There's no reason that the discussion of the actual historical pronunciation (Caragounis vs. everyone else) should be mentioned here. It's a different topic. The warning label is completely inappropriate. --Macrakis 21:16, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
- I agree with Macrakis -- Andreas 14:07, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Italian pronunciation
I do not understand what it means when it says "X is pronounced like germanic ich, that is an aspirated c". I would take an "aspirated c" to mean a [k_h], whereas I would take "germanic ich" to mean "German ich-laut" i.e. [ç]. It seems to me that the [k_h] reading makes more sense given Italian doesn't have a [ç] (or [x]), which would make sense given the reading they apply to theta and phi. —Felix the Cassowary (ɑe hɪː jɐ) 11:02, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I would suggest that IPA symbols be included in the Italian pronunciation. I think that Phlix has some problems with the phonetic nomenclature. Italian does not have [θ], [x] or [[ç], nor does it have aspiration, it does not even have [h], so that it would be difficult to teach how to pronounc aspirated consonants. Andreas 23:06, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
- The following was posted on my talk page; I'm copying it here for continuity:
- Hi i'm the authoe of that stuff, well, i do not understand what you do not understand, it is simple how do you pronounce in german "ich" wel,l that is the sound in italain of X. It is somethin like k aspirated, i hope you will now understand Philx 19:59, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
- But that doesn't say anything that wasn't said before, and it's just as ambiguous. An aspirated k is a velar stop followed by aspiration, whereas the German "ich" is a palatal fricative. Do you have a microphone, so that you can record the sounds, Phlix?
- —Felix the Cassowary (ɑe hɪː jɐ) 00:25, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
- well italian has't got aspiration so it is difficult for me to explain that, in italian there aren't aspirate words,so i can't put an example i do not have a mic however,ich germanic is very close to how X is pronounced in italian.
EVXARISTOS, in modern greek , this is the most close example of X is pronounced in italian, i hope Some Greek guy will help me on this.in italian to pronounce it will be written efxharistos. Philx 11:58, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Section on Renaissance scholarship
The short section here on Renaissance scholarship is much better than the corresponding bits we currently have over at "Ancient Greek phonology" (or whatever that page's current title is at the moment ;-), especially the mentioning of scholars before Erasmus. On the other hand, that page now contains the detailed summary of Erasmus. I'm tempted to merge some of this material in some way so that it goes together in either the one or the other article (not talking about merging the whole articles, of course). What do you guys think? -- By the way, it might be good to have source references for those scholars. Who's got any? Lukas 16:45, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Italian pronounciation
The article says:
- ζ is a voiced sibilant [z] as in Italian zolla or English zebra.
This cannot be (entirely) true, since the z in Italian is pronounced as /dz/ or as /ts/, while the English z is pronounced /z/. This is in contradiction.
--JorisvS 14:42, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Original research
The following is original research and should not put into Wikipedia, see Wikipedia:No original research.
- Since long-element υ diphthongs are rarer, the author of these lines does not know whether there is a standard pronunciation in French schools. I have not been able to find any reference on this topic (all French language Greek methods or grammars that I have looked up seem to ignore such diphthongs), and as far as I can remember, I was never taught a way to pronounce ᾱυ, ηυ or ωυ during my school years, and had to invent my own. However, due to disregard of vowel length, diphthong ᾱυ is often confused with similarly written diphthong ᾰυ and pronounced [o]/[ɔ]; similarly, the author of these lines has heard many persons pronouncing ηυ like ευ, i.e. as [ø]/[œ].
Andreas (T) 15:28, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
- You are probably right; while I still think that my memories are relevant, I understand that Wikipedia policies prevent including them. Still the proposition "I have not been able to find any reference on this topic (all French language Greek methods or grammars that I have looked up seem to ignore such diphthongs)" is NOT personal research, I have indeed looked up several common methods and grammar that present traditional French Ancient Greek pronunciation; I am rephrasing this part right now. 145.242.1.212 10:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Self-reference
"The author of these lines:" This is not exactly self-reference according to WP:ASR, but quite so. If something cannot be backed by sources, it should just not be mentioned. Andreas (T) 14:08, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
