Talk:Progressive rock

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
This article is part of the Rock music WikiProject, a group of Wikipedians interested in improving the encyclopaedic coverage of articles relating to rock music, and who are involved in developing and proposing standards for their content, presentation and other aspects.
If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.

Contents

[edit] La Bourée?

"Jethro Tull recorded a version of La Bourée by Bach in which they turned the piece into a "sleazy jazzy night-club song" (in Ian Anderson's own words)."

First of all, it's spelled "bourrée." But secondly, "La Bourrée" just means "the bourrée," and the bourrée is just a Baroque dance form. Bach wrote tons of them. Someone who knows more about Jethro Tull than I do should find out which bourrée in particular they did the sleazy jazzy night-club arrangement of.

Check sundaybaroque.org. I can't get the site to load at the moment, but they played the piece recently and even mentioned Jethro Tull having made it particularly well known. --Scottandrewhutchins 18:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Got it: It's the fifth movement (of 6) from Suite for Lute in e minor BWV 996 (BC L166). --Scottandrewhutchins

[edit] External links to useful sites

A few weeks ago a link that i posted a long time ago to a progressive rock related site was removed. I didn't want to make a big deal out of it, because i think this was an understandable reaction after this page being spammed with irrelevant links. Now the spam has calmed down, i'd like to reintroduce this link, as i think it is a useful community for progressive rock bands and fans. The name Bazaar could be misleading: it is certainly NOT a commercial site (neither is it some kind of obscure personal site). Also i think more external links should be allowed on this page (well, of course not some obscure fan page about Yes or something) as long as it's highly relevant (informational and about progressive rock).Bill Larivière 17:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

sorry, but WP:EL#Links_to_normally_avoid, forums, blogs, etc... should be avoided... they're just random online communities, and really contribute essential information to the subject...

[edit] Miscellaneous rewrites

I realize everyone has their own pet bands they want to talk about, but I had to add a line about the band Asia. I remember prog fans' huge anticipation of this mixing of King Crimson, Yes, and ELP, and having to listen to the album over and over because I simply could not believe my ears. Due to its visibility and stunning reorientation, Asia alone could represent the early 80's turnaround.

Fair enough... but the fact that you wrote "suprised and disappointed" is POV writing... what, no one in the world was not disappointed by it? plattopustalk 16:01, May 6, 2005 (UTC)
I knew, but it's a tough one. I assume there are subtle pov philosophy debates on wikipedia, so maybe someone will edit my words in a way that will capture in a few words a reasonable representation of who thought Asia was going to be what, and what they considered Asia to be once the group appeared. After all, even "much anticipated" is still pov, and I assume everyone acknowledges you're always caught within pov.

Hi, I wonder if it wouldn't be more wise to mention first what prog rock IS and only than mention elements that are common to prog rock but not necessery. If there are no objections, I'm going to change the phrasing a bit. -Marduk 18:16, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I removed the last paragraph from the article because he was too problematic in my view:

"Today, progressive rock continues to be created and admired by a solid core of enthusiasts, but seems to be paid little attention by the mainstream music press and receives virtually no radio airplay. The genre can no longer convincingly claim to be progressing rock music at the rate it once did, and those innovations that are being made are usually ignored or derided by the commercial world at large, and by progressive rock enthusiasts themselves."

1. 'Today' is not encyclopedic.

2. "The genre can no longer convincingly claim to be progressing rock music at the rate it once did" - progressing rock? come on, that sounds awful.

3. I think it is enough to say that it's peak was in 70's, with decline in 80's and reincarnation in 90's, and that the article says. It seems to be enough to me. -Marduk 18:29, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I edited this section a lot -

"Critics have often derided the genre as pompous and self-indulgent. This is because, unlike such stylistically consistent genres as country or hip hop, progressive rock is difficult to define in a single conclusive way."

1) I don't see how the reputation prog-rock has as pompous and self-indulgent has anything to do with it being "difficult to define stylistically", and I really fail to see how anyone could think there was a connection there. The largely negative reputations of albums like Brain Salad Surgery and Tales Of Topographic Oceans and whatnot doesn't have much to do with them being difficult to define stylistically, because they aren't. I agree that as musical genre categories go, prog rock is one of the hardest to define boundaries for, but prog rock has a reputation as being pompous and self-indulgent because a lot of is pompous and self-indulgent. Defining stylistic genre boundaries is neither here nor there.

2) country and hip hop are not particularly "stylistically consistent" anyway. like zappa, radiohead etc being "prog" or not as mentioned in the article, there are a lot of artists where if you wished you could have (and people do have) long debates about whether or not they were definitely "country artists" (Songs Ohia, Will Oldham, etc) or "hip hop artists" (Boards of Canada, DJ Shadow, Portishead, etc).

I also changed "virtuosity" to the less loaded "skill", removed something about the intricate harmonies "requiring repeated listening to grasp" (which is arguable, and what does "grasp" mean in this context anyway?), and a couple other minor things. hope there are no problems.

--Jamieli 18:47, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Duplicate wikilinks

It's worth mentioning that the WP:MOS dictates that wikilinks should only appear on the first instance of a term in an article (as well as in captions, etc). I've removed a lot of unnecessary links, but if you find any more it'd be a good idea to remove them. plattopus (talk) 06:44, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The most important feature of prog

In my opinion, #1 feature of progressive rock that differentiates it from other music genres is the harmony. Progressive harmony does not use traditional 5/7-tone scales, it rather uses the complete chromatic scale with no limitations. This is the key point. Music can not be treated as progressive if it is composed in major/minor/blues/rock/whatever-traditional key. I guess, this point would much purify and simplify the definition.

This is very hard to quantify. Like most musical genres, prog is predominantly diatonic. There is a greater degree of exploration into augmented and diminished scales than in most music, but this is also true of jazz and 20th century classical music. There is a greater degree of chromaticism in the chord progressions than in vanilla rock, but I can point you to medieval music of which this is also true.
I would very much disagree. I don't think there are any prog bands who solely use a chromatic scale. At best, perhaps a third of prog bands use chromatic scales from time to time. I don't think any reasonable definition of "progressive rock" would exclude Yes and early Genesis; the former abandoned traditional harmony on the first half of side 3 of Tales and Genesis never did.
The # 1 feature of prog bands might arguably be that they modulate a lot. Yes rarely stays in one key for a whole piece. But you can still divide their pieces into sections, and those sections are almost always major or minor Western keys. Lawrence King 11:01, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The #1 feature of Prog Rock is that there is no #1 feature, apart from a desire to be, or a perceprtion by their audience that the music is somehow "progressive" (whatever that means). :0)

I have performed in-depth Post-graduate level analysis on around 120 Progressive Rock albums over the last couple of years, and have come to the conclusion that Progressive Rock bands experiment with all of the basic parameters of music - which you could view as the defining feature in itself - but the one that stands out most is form.

To verify this conclusion through experience, if you listen to any individual Progressive Rock band that is generally accepted as such, the one linking factor is the expansion or conscious attempt at destruction of standard rock song form. This is as opposed to "jam" bands, or bands that claim to write "free-form" music, whose pieces generally display a lack of understanding of the concept of form rather than a conscious decision to fight against it or develop it. Such bands do not indicate any real level of composition, relying more on improvisation - which may be a fine line in some cases, e.g. Can, but to any reasonably competent musician, the difference is reasonably clear.

Another area of form that can be verified simply by listening, is the incorporation of formal elements from classical music in a significant and representative number of Progressive Rock groups. For example, this might be to base a piece of music on a classical piece - obvious example being ELP. This might also be to use classical-style harmonies to invoke a feeling of classical music, and even contrapuntal or leitmotif devices - an obvious example here being Gentle Giant.

There are some sites that go as far as to claim that Yes produced symphonic structures - but I have yet to verify this. The word "structure" may be viewed as synonymous with form, for the purposes of this discussion.

Agreement (or disagreement!)?

MarkCertif1ed 09:30, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] politics in progressive rock

I added the following line " Besides, as regards many early 1970's progressive rock bands (notably German ones) lyrics are very often concerned with politics (left-wing) and social issues." I see it's been removed, but yet I think it should be there, as the article in fact overlooks this very important aspect of progressive rock. Take such German prog bands as Eulenspygel, Floh de Cologne, Hanuman, Lied des Teufels, Coupla Prog, Electric Mud, Embryo, Hoelderlin, Necronomicon, Out of Focus, Profff. Wolf, or other European ones, such as Italian Jumbo, or famous English artists such as Henry Cow or Robert Wyatt. Many of the early 1970's German progressive rock bands were more or less directly related to the 1968 student movement. In fact, progressive rock was not just about dragons, fairy tales and princesses. I think one should not just focus on such maninstream bands as Yes or Genesis. Progressive rock was more than that. - Wolvin

Not in the eyes of 99% of the Earth's population. Of the bands you mentioned there, only Henry Cow is what I would call a "notable" band, so the political views of those other artists barely warrant mention on an article that also includes such mainstream heavyweights as Yes and Genesis. --plattopus (talk) 17:40, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)

My personal opinion is that the political angle could be removed from the page. After all, even if some English prog bands were political, they were less explicitly political than their contemporaries in the folk scene, or even the psychedelic scene (Jefferson Airplane had more politics on one album than King Crimson and Yes had in their entire careers). Henry Cow was political but is hardly "mainstream" English prog.

Was Europe different? I wouldn't call Magma political in any comprehensible sense, and when PFM became political their music went downhill. However, I don't know the German bands you mention. So I reworded the paragraph in question to show that English bands' politics, if expressed at all, was done through their fiction. (See Bill Martin's book for an excellent analysis of why this sort of political critique is more valuable than straightforward Dylanesque politics.)

In fact, if I had to name the three most political English-speaking prog bands, they would probably be Henry Cow, Renaissance, and Rush. Guess what? These bands are Marxist, traditional English conservative, and Ayn Randist, respectively. Two out of three are on the "right"!

I vote to remove the reference to politics. At most, we need a page on German Progressive Rock bands, and then we could refer to the fact that prog bands wer usually not explicitly political and say "except for German prog <link>". How does that sound? Lawrence King 08:48, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Rush is not "Ayn Randist", nor are they right wing. Neil was influenced by her writing for a period of time, but is not correct to call Rush a right wing, "Randist" band. His use of her influence haunts them to do this day, but if you read anything he wrote post-1976 you can see that he is far from an Objectivist or Ayn Rand disciple.


Well I think that if 99 % of the Earth's population might not have heard of Eulenspygel or Jumbo et al., it would be justified to claim that 99 % of them have not heard of "progressive rock" at all. So should we scrap the whole entry altogether? Where's the dividing line between what is known enough to be mentioned in Wikipedia and the rest? Is it enough to say "I don't know so it's not known"? Because a band was not a success in the States does not mean its non-existence. It looks like anything that's not English-speaking is obscure and should not be at least mentioned. I think it should. The other thing is whether the issue of politics should be left out. Well, it's an important issue and deserves a mention in the context of lyrics. Where these lyrics politically-oriented or not? Were I a novice wanting to consult an encyclopedia I would certainly want to find the answer to this question. Why is it justified to say that lyrics were about religion then? I don't know many outstanding prog bands that were religion-oriented. If ELP's Tarkus is against war, isn't it political or regarding social issues? I think that I mention a phenomenon that "did" exist and should not be obscured. At least as a note - I did not elaborate on that, did I? I think that adding an article on German prog is a good idea and as soon as I have some time I'll try to start one. However, I believe that at least a small mention, in the present form, should be left in the main article. - Wolvin


Okay, I'm fine with keeping the current version.

I think Wikipedia articles sometimes end up with "a little of everything". The current article's list of "lyric themes" looks like a bunch of people tried to think of every topic that prog songs ever dealt with. So we have "science fiction, fantasy, history, religion, war, love, and madness". Why not add supermarkets ("Selling England") and whales, too?

My opinion is that an article on a SUB-genre should focus on what makes the SUB-genre distinctive, so this article should focus on how prog rock differs from rock in general. And the fact is, that in the English-speaking world, the most distinctive thing about prog lyrics is they use a wider vocabulary and they much more often focus on fantasy, science fiction, and English romanticism. Songs about "war" and "love" are far more common in commercial rock than in prog! They certainly don't belong in this list. I agree with you that religion doesn't belong here -- I can think of one KC song, one ELP song, and a few very early Genesis songs that dealt with religion. And "madness"? I can think of two Pink Floyd albums; what else? (Sidepoint: I don't consider Floyd to be prog. They're psychedelic. People bought their albums because of the sound effects, not because of the key changes.)

If someday we have separate articles on German prog, Italian prog, etc., we can revisit this question. By then this article will be long enough that it will need to be broken up anyway!

Anyway, I'm ranting now, so I'll sign off. Lawrence King 09:30, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Italian Progressive

I noticed that there are no references at all to the great Italian branch of progressive rock. I am not versed in the matter, but am almost sure that no article about progressive could be considered complete without references to the great Italian bands. There isn't any reference to fussion either, there should be. Just remember that at the very origin of both fussion and progressive, it is not possible to draw a perfect distinction between both kinds of music. --Paiconos 18:04, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I added a mention of the European prog scene, which is certainly very important both yesterday and today. If you visit Usenet you will see that modern prog fans in the UK and USA are often discovering the 1970's Italian and French bands!
But the pages for PFM, Banco, and Le Orme are empty. Your turn!
Lawrence King 09:18, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)


I'm trying to find informnation on an Italian
prog rock band from at least '66. predated
King Crimson by a few years - the only other thing
I know is that the singers first name in Vincenzo
and had a #1 album in 1970 on the classical opera
circuit.


Goblin deserves at least some mention on this page, even if it's not listed among the major bands.Scottandrewhutchins 15:38, 19 June 2006 (UTC)Scottandrewhutchins

Not really, there are already lots of examples. The redundant examples should really be restricted (see comments by other users somewhere on this talk page in in html-comments in the article source). There's a list of progressive rock artists en bands where the band can and should be added. Regards --LimoWreck 17:11, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I haven't read the full article yet, but one group that was very popular among my 1970s prog friends was "Area" (who called themselves an "international pop group"). Others were "Banco Del Mutuo Socorsso" and "PFM." One German group that also made an impact in our universe was SFF (Schicke Fuhrs and Frohling).ZincOrbie 14:02, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hold on a minute!

Who added all the Mars Volta crap? They're an obscure band that don't deserve to be the most-mentioned group in the article.

Perhaps not, but they definitely deserve a place somewhere... since they're currently the only progressive metal band who could be called "popular" in the mainstream.
What? Tool appears to be enjoying a lot more publicity than Volta. They also have garnered significantly greater success in the way of airplay. And Dream Theater are becoming increasingly "popular" as well, their last album made the top 40.
They are not all that obscure. In fact, they are the only progressive rock band on the radio/tv for quite some time.
And who the hell switched Ween for Radiohead?
Glad I'm not the only one who noticed it. Remove?
I concur (if this is a democracy....) Lawrence King 19:11, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Why was the image changed?

Just wondering why the first image was changed from a Yes concert photo to a Tull album? -- plattopusis this thing on? 17:38, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

OK, it appears to be a JT fanboy making the changes (see his/her edit history, especially in the sandbox), so I'm going to revert it. -- plattopusis this thing on? 17:46, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

Sorry about that image change... I'm new to Wikipedia, and was just experimenting around. -- Rantinghuman 16:24, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Why no Mike Oldfield?

I guess it already got debated, but... why no mention of Mike Oldfield? [1] -- 6 18:53, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If it already got debated it would be on this talk page... and it's not, so it probably hasn't. He deserves a mention somewhere, no doubt... probably just a case of noone actually taking the time to include him. plattopustalk 10:43, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)
I came to this discussion page to suggest the same thing. I'm listening to Tubular Bells at this very moment. Patrick Lucas 03:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Too many bands listed as examples

Recently there have been a whole lot of extra bands listed as examples. I think this is inappropriate, because this article is not intended as a list of prog bands. It is intended as a description of progressive rock.

For example, the following paragraph is absurd:

The point of this paragraph is that one feature that is common in prog is concept albums. This point is completely clear once the reader reads two examples. Why do we need 13 examples, including one that claims to not be an example after all?

I don't have a proposed solution. If Wikipedia had formal editors they could prune this down, but if I did that folks would take it as an attack on their favorite bands. Any suggestions? Lawrence King 07:03, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Do what I did to the progressive metal article: remove all but the most important of examples, and create list of progressive rock artists. plattopustalk 08:48, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
I just went ahead and yanked out a bunch of examples from the Characteristics section. I edit anonymously so there's no-one for people to get mad at :-). I tried to keep the most important examples but in some cases the decision process was admittedly pretty arbitrary. I also made a number of other changes, hopefully improvements. Feel free to discuss them further, but it's probably best not to add much stuff back in without discussing it here first.
I kept all the bullet points that were there before in some form, but arguably some of them could be removed or consolidated (I did do the latter to a certain extent). More merciless editors than myself should feel free to chip in with (at least) suggestions.

I love the results! Lawrence King 05:27, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

I've added/changed a lot since then. This has included some fairly merciless editing of other people's contributions (I've either nuked them or worked them in in ways their authors never intended [grin]; I think they only thing I left alone was when someone added Steve Howe to the list of famous soloists). Let me know what you think (and that applies to whoever is lurking too).

[edit] Break this page up into multiple pages?

...can someone please explain why in the section on progressive rock progressive metal groups are mentioned so much? In fact, to quote the article on progressive metal, "these bands are usually happy to be known as progressive, although the music bears very little resemblance to the original progressive rock form"... and yet it contradicts itself by mentioning the likes of Green Carnation and Dream Theater as examples of progressive rock bands that have made some long songs...

Also, the mars volta I don't think could be considered post-rock by any means, in fact, again, the page on themself doesn't mention post-rock so I think the mention of them being should be removed? (80.3.96.40)

I agree. Muse isn't a post-rock band either.
This page is sort of depressing to me, because every time we prune it, the stuff comes back. At least once a week someone feels it's necessary to add in their favorite bands.
In my opinion, the facts are these: From about 1969 until the late 1970's, everyone agrees what is meant by "progressive rock". After this, there is a great dispute. Therefore this page should separate these out. The fact is, that the heirs of progressive rock clearly include the 1990's prog revival (Spock's Beard), and prog-metal, and groups like the modern King Crimson. But these groups are nothing like each other. They are different branches from a single tree: different genres entirely.
Primus, for example, clearly are influenced by the 1980's Crimson. But if you say they are "influenced by progressive rock" that statement would be ambiguous.
So how should the article be structured? I think ideally there should be separate articles for each post-1980 genre, and then this article should focus on pre-1980 prog. After all, the entire reason that any post-1980 band has claimed the "prog" title is because of similarites to 1970's prog bands. All of the "characteristics of prog" listed on this page were in 1970's prog (in varying quantities). In 1972 King Crimson radically changed their style and a new "characteristic" was added to prog; but Spock's Beard radically changed in 1998 they would have no longer been considered "progressive". In other words, the genre is fundamentally defined by the 1970's bands, even if you personally prefer other bands.
But I don't believe for a moment that I can persuade everyone that this is a good change..... Lawrence King 08:45, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Me again (no usename), you have convinced me, obviously I am not objecting to the mentioning of progressive metal bands, but not in an article about progressive metal rather than progressive rock unless its in the context of music that has debateably been influenced by progressive rock. I just don't see the benefit to either progressive metal or progressive rock to have the former used wrongly in this article. To be honest simply deleting references to progressive metal bands would I think be sufficent and then a short piece at the end linking to other progressive styles. Waiting to see if anyone objects...

Keep in mind that we should be using summary style. Just to throw something out there: what about having an article progressive music that explains all the different ways that term is used, with sub-articles with titles like progressive rock and progressive metal. The articles on individual genres should focus primarily in describing what the style is like (i.e. what makes progressive rock different from other kinds of rock and other kinds of progressive music) and then a separate article on the history of progressive rock that could explain all the little permutations and varieties over the years. Of course, that's a lot of work, but that's what I think you oughtta work towards. Tuf-Kat 20:44, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
Oh, we already have progressive music. I thought it redirected to progressive rock. Still, there could be better interlinking and use of summary style among these progressive genre pages. I think it's clear that 80s and 90s progressive stuff is notable and should be covered in the appropriate article(s), so it should be made clear which article covers which topic. Plus, I think with an entire history of progressive rock article to play around with, there will be less pressure for this article to explain every last little variety of prog. Tuf-Kat 20:48, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
That does sound like a good idea. And a lot of work.
Here are the main divisions that I see. Is this unreasonable? Some of these already have pages, but these would all have to be referenced within some sort of index page. Or maybe a template?
(1) Psychedelic music
(2a) 1970's prog rock, main current (Crimson, Yes, ELP, etc.)
(2b) 1970's prog rock, Canterbury bands (Camel, Caravan, etc.)
(2c) 1970's prog rock, avant-garde and astringent bands (Henry Cow, etc.)
(2d) 1970's prog rock, European bands -- or should these not be separated by nationality?
(3) prog / jazz fusion (Mahavishnu Orchestra, Dixie Dregs)
(4) prog pop (ELO, Alan Parsons, later Kansas, later Renaissance)
(5a) 1980's post-prog bands (80's Crimson, Peter Gabriel)
(5b) 1980's commercialization of prog (Genesis, Tull, Asia) -- is this the same as 4?
(5c) 1980's prog revival (Marillion, etc.)
(6) 1990's prog revival continued (Spock's Beard, etc.) -- is this in the same category as 5c?
(7) progressive metal
(8) modern bands that are arguably prog (Radiohead, etc.)
[I retitled the current section because hopefully it will attract more attention that way.] Lawrence King 00:29, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I don't think we need all that many articles. My advice is to keep it as simple as possible for as long as possible -- terms that are widely used with a clear meaning, like Canterbury Scene, should have an article; stuff like "1980s post-prog" probably doesn't need one. In other words, give progressive rock a tight focus, moving the chaff to history of progressive rock, letting that article grow until it gets really long or a particular section begins to overwhelm things, then make, as needed, articles like history of progressive rock: 1980s post-prog (since I doubt there is a whole lot to say about 80s post-prog beyond history and a few identifying characteristics -- that's not really a discrete genre in the same sense as the Canterbury Scene, I think, so it should be laid out as a part of "history" and not as a discrete genre in itself). I think a template is a great idea, as it can help keep things orderly and make it clear which article is on which precise topic.
I don't suggest making any new articles at this time, except for a history of progressive rock, possibly along with e.g. French progressive rock (this is a potentially thorny issue, as the history of progressive rock must be neutral and not focus unduly on American and British stuff -- the hypothetical French progressive rock article is not a ghetto to avoid going into the subject on the main article; also note that there is a French rock article, and I am not sure if we need to make more of a distinction than that at this time, it might better to put all kinds of French rock in that article until it becomes unwieldy). I'm not sure if these rambling comments make much sense, but maybe some others will come along with other thoughts. Tuf-Kat 01:11, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] WAAAAY too many Wikilinks

There are lots of redundant links on this page and I see that far from cutting down on them, someone has been actively adding more. There are at least five links to Yes including two in the same paragraph, three to King Crimson again including two in the same paragraph, five to ELP, even two to Bach, which once again are in the same paragraph! There doesn't need to be more than one, maybe two apiece, and definitely not within a paragraph or two of each other. Could someone deal with this? If not I might do it in the next few days when I have more time. PurplePlatypus 21:02, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Done. Andy Mabbett 21:45, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gentle Giant in intro?

I'm not too sure about adding GG to the intro. They are important, but I don't think they belong on the same list as the other seven bands there. Commercial success is a factor, and there they probably rank close to King Crimson but miles behind the other six, but I also think the other seven (especially Crimso) are all probably more influential. Seems to me there are other 70s bands that are at least as important as GG (Van der Graaf Generator? Mahavishnu Orchestra? PFM who, I'm horrified to say, don't even have an article!) - where do you draw the line? PurplePlatypus 07:34, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I actually didn't add them based on commercial success (while they were pretty successful). I think GG is a great example of one extreme of prog rock and how extreme it can be. As I said, I think they were quite influential in the genre (Ian Anderson's favorite band at the time and Jethro Tull shows how he was influenced). Obviously I'm biased because I love GG, but I believe they're one of the more notable prog rocks bands, if only for their eclecticism. --Comics 19:16, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, I had a pretty good idea what your view would be :-). What I'd really like, though, is to hear from a couple of others on this topic. Personally I just don't think they comparre to the other seven in influence, even if they were themselves a key influence on one of those seven (and I don't know enough about either Tull or GG to really say - I'm more of a Yes, Floyd and Crimso guy). Think of the above query as a highly informal RfC (in the originally intended sense, not what RfC seems to have turned into).
I should clarify that by mentioning commercial success, I wasn't trying to say that was the only reason you put them in; I was trying to say that wasn't the only reason I was suggesting removing them, a somewhat different point. Sorry if I was unclear about that. PurplePlatypus 19:27, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
No, you're absolutely right. They don't have nearly the scope and influence of bands like Yes, Rush, Pink Floyd (all of which I love). Personally I think they're the extreme example of progressive rock and how they blended classical and conventional instruments and musical conventions. Arguably, they are the most prog of all the prog rock bands. I could go either way, though, don't get me wrong. I'll still be able to sleep at night if someone wants to revert my addition.  :) --Comics 22:30, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

You'll never find a better reason to remove Gentle Giant of the list than you're own preferences in prog rock. I'm a Crimson guy too, but I couldn't deny Gentle Giant's unbeatable progressive quality. As some people say in his section, they are probably the most "progressive" rock band, and that is reason enough to keep Gentle Giant in the list of "major acts" in history of progressive rock. Since this is an article about traditional progressive rock bands, I will add a comment about Focus. They are a "major act" too, indeed. quinceps 20:51, 06 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kansas

The last thing we need, obviously, is another person wondering why his or her favorite band isn't included. But Kansas is (as with all prog histories) relagated to one of the second-generation, mid-70s, almost irrelevant prog acts.

So here's my thoughts on more prominent inclusion:

1) Kansas started *recording* in 1971. The early songs were intensly progressive and bewlildered midwest audiences. They are absolutely a first generation prog band. (This is a change I already made to the history.) Kansas, which tours and records today, still plays one of the songs recorded in 1971 ("Belexes").

http://www.cuneiformrecords.com/bandshtml/protokaw.html

2) Kansas is one of the top-selling prog acts of all time, with over 30 million albums to date.

3) In...I think it was 1980...Kansas was the #1 concert attraction in the world.

4) "Dust in the Wind" is one of the most famous acoustic guitar songs in all of rock, not just progressive rock. Homer Simpson sang "Dust in the Wind." Bill and Ted did. Will Ferrell in Old School. The current Subaru ad campaign. I could fill the page...

5) I'd argue the most well-known prog song of all time is "Carry on, Wayward Son." Thoughts?

6) MTV had several Kansas videos in rotation. They were all punishingly awful.

I have never understood why the prog elite doesn't give Kansas props. But I'll tell you, all those other artists listed do.

Bill

PS: I agree on Gentle Giant - hugely influential. Certainly more so than Kansas.

Bill, I'm not so sure I agree on all your points. I must say, to begin, that I'm not a big fan of Kansas and don't personally think they're actually especially prog if you compare to many of the other bands at the time. I would classify them more in the Classic Rock realm with maybe a few touches of prog here and there.
Secondly, I don't think they were part of the first wave. All the most prominent names in prog. had their roots in the mid to late 60s, around the time The Beatles were calling it quits. The first prog albums were released in the last year of the 60s and first of the 70s. I'm thinking of the first King Crimson, Yes, Jethro Tull, Gentle Giant, etc. albums. Kansas only released its first album in its current incarnation in 1974, and they were sort of coming in late in the game, in many ways. The height of their popularity was much later, as well. --Comics 18:49, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Bill, I don't dispute that Kansas deserves a reasonably prominent mention; some of their early stuff is more prog than Comics seems to be giving it credit for, and they were certainly one of the genre's most commercially successful acts. However, I don't think they fit the first wave for pretty much the same reasons Comics just gave, and I certainly don't think they're as influential as the other bands in that section. I've reverted the change (along with an unrelated edit by someone else that I just don't think was very good), and will put in a bit of a compromise momentarily. PurplePlatypus 04:42, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
No, I agree that some of their earlier stuff was more on the prog side, but this is not what they're known for. All of their successful material really doesn't fit into the prog category, IMO. Kansas does deserve a mention, though. Comics 04:57, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm actually with bill on Carry On, Wayward Son qualifying as prog - in fact, it's proggier than a lot of other prog bands' best known songs (ELP - Lucky Man, Floyd - Money [7/4 time notwithstanding] / ABitW2, Yes - Owner, almost every Rush or Genesis song the average person has heard of...). About the only other major prog band with as representative a song among the ones that actually get airplay is Yes, with Roundabout. And there are tons of less well-known album tracks that are clearly prog. These are not on obscure albums, they're on the same albums as Carry On and Dust. PurplePlatypus 06:27, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, that's a great song. I wouldn't say that Money is not a prog-ish song, though. It's definetly unconventional. Roundabout is probably the most popular true prog song ever. Lucky Man is not prog (though it's excellent). Comics 19:49, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your collective responses - this is my first experience with Wikipedia, and I am glad. To address the comments -- PurplePlatypus, in terms of influence, do you mean at the time, or over time? I agree that Kansas was not as influential to prog bands at the time. But for all the prog bands that came after, they have been hugely influential. Just ask any of the newer prog artists. Thank you for bringing up the songs other than Kansas's big hits. There are tons of very progressive songs on Kansas albums. They just weren't radio hits. A lot of people judge Kansas, but are not ulimately familiar with the material. -- Comics, I don't see how whether or not you like Kansas as having any bearing on this discussion. I can't stand Yes, but I have enormous respect for them. If you don't think the original Kansas was part of the first wave...well, perhaps I'm wrong. But I believe they are, as evidenced by the album recorded in 1971. If you haven't heard it, then what is the basis of your opinion? Is your definition of first-wave when a band was making music, or influencing other bands? Or fame? Outside of prog, no one has heard of King Crimson. Or ELP. And these days, the average person has not even heard of Yes. Which is a shame. But comparing the popularity of "Wayward Son" and "Roundabout" is...I dunno, man. I don't think anyone except a prog fan even remembers that song. Maybe I'm just showing my age. But "Wayward Son" is the only prog song to enter into the mainstream culture, and it still is, being used constantly to this day. It's even a popular ring tone on cell phones - I'm willing to bet the only prog tone. My biggest question for you, though, is what makes "Roundabout" proggier than "Wayward Son"? Please, be detailed!
I was citing my opinion, just for the sake of the discussion we were having. It has no impact on the article itself. Unless you can prove that Kansas received any popular attention before the mid-70s, then I don't think you have much of an argument. Sure there were probably a ton of underground and lesser-known bands in the 60s and 70s playing prog-style music, but by first wave we're talking about bands with a huge imapact and significance on prog itself as well as influence on other bands which followed. In the Court of the Crimson King broke barriers and caught everyone's eye in the late 60s. Kansas didn't really appear on the map until a good amount of time later in a significant form (unless you can prove otherwise). Most articles barely even mention Kansas before their 1974 album. It was minor. I won't get into debating Roudabout vs. Wayward Son. It's a matter of opinion and of no relevance here. Also, please sign posts with ~~~~ so that we know who you are. Comics 02:52, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
This is my worst fears about Wikipedia realized. It's not so much an encyclopedia as a Star Trek convention where zealous fans argue over their favorite episodes. You didn't answer the points I raised. But that's because you don't have to. You'll just keep modding down any changes I make (or anyone else you don't agree with). Your stated metric for the greatness of a prog band is determined by...when they got popular? With whom? You? With the artists? If your metric is popular attention, then bands like ELP, King Crimson and Gentle Giant don't even belong here. And bands like Rush, Kansas and Yes which have outsold them a hundred times over are...the greatest prog bands? Please consider establishing an objective criteria for listing these bands in your history and stick to it - you know, one other than what you happen to think is cool for no particular reason. In writing these entries, you take on a responbility to the people who read them. Please take that responsibility more seriously. And if you're going to say something as astoundingly stupid as one song is "progier" than another, then be prepared to back that up with something other than, "Oh, well that's not important."
Look, Wikipedia is not the place for personal debates on ideas. What we're discussing here is whether or not Kansas deserves to be mentionned in the first wave. I did not say that importance was determined in terms of popularity, I said that the groups which were a part of the so-called first wave were what influenced and really started the prog rock movement amongst fans. I think that Kansas was a minor player in this for the comparative reasons I have stated above. You mention that your worst fears about Wikipedia have been realized because of fanboys. You implied in your first message that you were essentially a firm supporter of Kansas which is why you were pushing for them to be recognized as part of the first wave. Furthermore, you claim that I did not address any of your points, but you also fail to address or acknowledge what I said in response to you. There was a reason why I didn't get into a debate of Roundabout vs. Wayward. You're obviously new to Wikipedia, but you have to understand that this is not the place for such debates as it matters not in the context of the article. I actually think Wayward son is a great song, as I noted, but I don't believe that it's especially proggy, and is more in line with classic rock style material. Just to quickly state my point so that you don't argue I'm coping out again, I based the "more proggy" comment based exactly on the criteria defining prog rock in this article. "Use of unusual time signatures, scales, or tunings." Wayward Son is far more conventional in this area. "Prominent use of instruments unusual in rock music, including electronic instrumentation." There is some synth and piano in Wayward, but Wakeman takes all this a step further in Roundabout. Also, the pedals that Squire uses on his bass are pretty unique. "Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies." Anderson is a countertenor, to begin with. Also, his harmonies with Squire are often extremely unique in the way they're constructed. Wayward is more conventional, once again, with some standard backing vocals on the chorus. "Lyrics that convey intricate and sometimes impenetrable narratives" again, Roundabout moreso. "Solo passages for virtually every instrument." There are several solos from varying instruments in Roundabout. Wayward does have a guitar solo and a shortish piano solo, though. "A coordination within the rhythm section of the band (typically consisting of the bassist and the drummer)" Well, Bruford/Squire are probably one of the best examples of countertempos in prog rock. Going completely against the rest of the band. Not so in Wayward. My argument is that Wayward has some prog elements, but I would suggest it's far more in line with classic rock. No doubt Kansas has some very prog material, but once again, they are not especially notable for it and sort were somewhat late in coming into the scene (other than the fact they were recording in 1971, which isn't really relevant. There were many bands recording that kind of music at the time, no doubt. Kansas should be put in the 2nd wave. --Comics 03:15, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
I am concerned about the lack of meaningful, epistemological metrics here other than fandom. I remain convinced that your rationale for "important" prog bands is that if you don't already like it, then it's not good prog. Take your hilarious comparison of "Roundabout" to "Wayward Son". Your observations are detailed, dogmatic and demonstrate an astounding ignorance of the song you are denigrating. For example, "Wayward Son" has 3 guitar solos, not 1. And there's no piano solo. I can't fathom how you appointed yourself the ultimate master of progressive rock. Kansas was not especially notable for progressive rock? Wow. According to whom? Oh, right, according to you. Regardless, I will try to consider your opinions. After some thought, I will agree that Kansas should not be listed in the first wave. I also think it's important not position them as a result of it, though. Kerry Livgren was influenced by earlier bands like Procol Harum, not later ones like Yes. Bill Evans--209.30.84.149 04:30, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

It's blatantly untrue that Comics didn't use meaningful metrics, and it seems to me that the charge of substituting fandom for reasoned discussion is at least as applicable in the other direction. It also seems to me that you've accused Comics of using only fandom as a rationale, and admitted that he didn't, in virtually back to back sentences; you might want to give that a rethink. It's also simply not the case that he did anything that would reasonably be described as "denigrating" Carry On. Indeed, you seem to be sniping with very little provocation; nothing Comics has said strikes me as anywhere near as unreasonable as you've made it out to be, which is not to say I agree with all of it. PurplePlatypus 09:15, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, there is a short snyth solo at 3:05. At this point I'm going to walk away from this. You appear to be doing exactly what you claim is wrong with my comments. This is exactly why I did not want to get into this debate regarding Roundabout vs. Wayward. It doesn't result in meaningful discussion. You are being as much of a fanboy in regards to Wayward as I am with Roundabout, the difference is that I admit it. However, we were discussing the merits of having Kansas listed as a first wave band, which I disagree with for all the reasons I have mentionned. As a new user you appear to be slightly unfamiliar with how Wikipedia works and how consensus is achieved. I don't think I know everything about prog rock, but I was stating my irrelevant person opinion on two songs. At least we achieved consensus regarding the first wave, which is what really matters. Wikipedia is not a chat room. I thank PurplePlatypus for understanding what I was getting at. --Comics 15:10, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure why Kansas keeps being excluded. Rush's work is a lot popppier than Kansas, but it's allowed to remain. Next you're going to say Boston is an important prog band, but Kansas isn't.Scottandrewhutchins 15:36, 19 June 2006 (UTC)Scottandrewhutchins

It is a complete nonsense even to discuss whether a certain band should be included or excluded!

We can go to specialist Progressive Rock sites to explore the various bands of the genre - in an encyclopaedia article, we are concerned merely with defining what it is. There are a handful of well-known and slightly less well-known UK bands that are very widely recognised as initiating (and thus, defining) what Prog Rock is - and only those NEED to be mentioned at all.

Others should only be mentioned in connection with a specific and demonstrably important contribution to the genre IMHO.

MarkCertif1ed 09:37, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

I just did another fairly large cleanup of the Characteristics section; a lot of stuff seems to have been added since I last checked it that detracted from, rather than added to it. Some of it was just more of the usual accumulation of mostly unnecessary examples - I expect that someone, who will quite possibly continue to be me, will need to do that every month or two until the end of time, but oh well.

But more egregiously, some of the contributors of these bits - I haven't checked but I assume it was more than one person - didn't seem to pay much attention to the context they were adding their comments to. For example, in two different cases people listed something as an "exception" to a trend it was actually very much a part of. Someone listed highly allegorical Rush songs as though they were exceptions to the allegorical trend (Pink Floyd's The Final Cut would have been a much better example), and someone said ELO was an exception to the trend of not using actual orchestras by calling them a "mini-orchestra" (a description that could apply to any of a dozen other bands mentioned on the page - hardly a unique feature of ELO, quite aside from its poor fit to the context!).

This is a wiki and anyone can contribute as much stuff as they like, but please, you best serve your readers and fellow contributors by making sure it fits the context you're adding it to (and that it isn't just restating something that's already in the article, another problem I saw a bit of). PurplePlatypus 11:01, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I noticed it when my friend was editing on my computer. I do think that there should be a variety of examples, but nothing overboard (I.E. listing half of Rush's catalogue when they only had a minor period of pure "Progressive Rock"). I also agree that Brain Salad Surgery is a solid example of the artistic movement in prog rock. Deckiller 23:40, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tool?

Does Tool really belong in the same category as Genesis and Pink Floyd? A Perfect Circle, maybe--but Tool? I find that categorization hard to understand, especially in light of the Opiate EP. Their music is way too similar to metal. If anything, they would better qualify as Nu Metal, except for the lack of hip hop influence. But the heavy, rhythmic bass; the hard drums, the distorted guitar, the screaming, the loudness, the dark sound, the themes of abuse and disillusionment, and the fan base make them seem much more similar to Nu Metal than Progressive Rock.

All it says is that there is debate on whether they belong in the category (near the beginning), and that they have cited King Crimson as an influence. Both seem fine to me, though granted, the latter might best be moved to the Influences section rather than where it is now. Neither reference states outright that they are prog, and in face the first rather goes out of its way not to. PurplePlatypus 22:31, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
(And having said that - clearly Tool isn't much like Genesis or Floyd, but change your examples to King Crimson and Van der Graaf Generator and suddenly it's not so clear. Prog is a huge category that, as the article notes, doesn't have any universally present defining features and is routinely applied to bands that don't sound very much alike.) PurplePlatypus 22:38, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


hey hey what about the mars volta? they apply to almost all of the themes of prog rock except that theyre a modern band but theyre definately more prog than tool... just sayin is all

I'll defend Tool on this subject manner. Tool is more of a progressive rock band than many people give them credit for. Their sound is hidden under many of the things you discuss: the screaming, loudness, distorted guitar, etc... Though it's harder to find a progressive sound until their last album Lateralus, Aenima includes many progressive sounds. They have been categorized, much of the time, with bands in the nu-metal category, but... as Maynard has said about that, "I don't really see the connection. Because there is some intensity in some of our songs, I think these bands pick up the surface noise, and that's their influence." You should listen to Tool more and pick up on their sound. I know that Pink Floyd was considered very dark for their time... much like Tool. Their live shows definately add to the "progessive rock categorization," I mean... King Crimson even opened for them on tour, THE progressive rock band. willsy 7:38PM February 25, 2006

[edit] Rick van der Linden dies January 22, 2006

Sad news from the Netherlands. This morning Rick van der Linden passed away at the age of 59 after battling the consequences of a massive stroke for two months. Rick was an influential member/arranger/composer and keyboardist of the Dutch progressive rock band Ekseption. Ekseption website: [2]. AvB ÷ talk 13:25, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] European

The article describes european prog as influenced by jazz fusion while american prog as influenced by rhythm and blues. but jazz comes from the u.s. someone comment please Lue3378 02:56, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I think you're right. Classical music, European folklore music (Celtic, Slavic), etc. - That's the real "native" European influence on progressive rock. quinceps 19:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Not exclusively. It's dead easy to hear the influence of the UK pioneers (especially Genesis and Pink Floyd) in many early European (non-UK) Prog bands - e.g PFM's early albums are so clearly inspired by Genesis that discussion is almost unnecessary, and so many of the more psychedelic Krautrock bands virtually cover "Saucerful of Secrets" or "Set the Controls..." that it's beyond funny.

Jazz fusion was particularly influential on the "Canterbury" scene, of course - and it's evident in King Crimson and Genesis to a lesser extent. Psychedelia was as equally influential as rhythm and blues - early King Crimson are essentially a glorified hard/blues rock combo with a jazz influence, much like a psychedelic/garage band but with compositional structuring, and Pink Floyd were... Pink Floyd (both R&B and psychedlia combined, but again more tightly structured than a casual listen would belie).

I guess it depends on how European Prog is defined - can you be more specific?

MarkCertif1ed 13:43, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 21:13, 16 February 2006 141.150.215.100 (→Reviews)

+ * Gagliarchives South Jersey's Finest Progressive Rock 15 Years Running. Would that URL belong into "Reviews"? If I understand that webpage correctly, that is some prog streaming site, maybe that would deserve a seperate heading? --BNutzer 21:16, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Blood Brothers

I've listened to the Blood Brothers for a while in the past and I don't see a progressive sense in their music. Can someone inform me on why they're on the list, because their sound is more hardcore punk than anything. willsy 7:28PM, February 25, 2006

[edit] contemporary section needed

this article needs a section detailing contemporary prog bands. a few are listed under "influences"

[edit] Page cleanup

I'll copy/paste this note (made by User:PurplePlatypus as comment in the article source) here too, so it's also visible here:

A NOTE TO ALL CONTRIBUTORS

PLEASE RESIST THE TEMPTATION TO ADD MORE EXAMPLES, ESPECIALLY TO THE LIST OF CONCEPT ALBUMS. This is a general-purpose encyclopedia article, not an attempt at an exhaustive list. Really, at this writing ( 22:02, 21 March 2006) there are still too many examples even after a pretty good paring down by Hipred; there is absolutely no need for more. Please make sure any additions you make add useful information to the article without making it read like a laundry list. Your favorite band does NOT need to be mentioned at every turn, though by all means add ONE reference somewhere if you think someone important has been overlooked. Thank you.

Anyway, I think User:Hriped cleaned up the article well. There is room for quite a few notable examples as illustrations, but indeed, not every band needs to be added. The traditional, notable, "big" bands illustrate the points well enough. For people who really want to spam their favorite bands, that's not what wikipedia is for, or you might find some lists on wikipedia that list some artists or albums --LimoWreck 22:25, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I've begun to wonder if the best solution might be rewrite the characteristics so as to eliminate the prog rock band examples that follow each one. I am not saying get rid of all examples everywhere, but I think that the place for examples is in the history section or in the actual articles on the bands and albums themselves. The only helpful reasons for having the examples is to clarify or prove the characteristics. As for the latter point, if the characteristics are accurate, then that point that should be proven in the history to begin with.
As for the point of examples somehow clarifying the characteristics, well, currently, the "Extremely wide dynamic range" characteristic and its explanation is succinct and unambiguous. It manages this quite well without citing any bands or pieces. Sure, we could add examples to it for the sake of having examples, but all that does is make the paragraph longer and invite a shopping list of every example a fan can think of.
Also, since progressive rock characteristics are not mutually exclusive, authenticity lies in showing how prog bands exhibit many of the characteristics at once. I think that we could avoid definition bloat if we took that into account, by listing relevant characteristics when we write about the bands rather than mentioning bands when we are listing the characteristics. Moroever, I think it strengthens this article if an album (or band) article explains how the album (or band) shows prog rock characteristics X Y and Z, and then cites Progressive rock as the authority, instead of the current trend of using this article as a place to namedrop a band to "prove" that it is prog.
Maybe I'm crazy to advocate for a clear, unadorned list of prog rock characteristics, but if I am, then thankfully the article on Schizophrenia is able to list each of its five symptoms without putting in 2-9 examples of each person's favorite schizoid man (or woman) after each one. ;-) --Hriped 05:44, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, well, the problem is -as with any musical genre- , you can't really give a strict definition of the genre. As you said progressive rock characteristics are not mutually exclusive, but not all characteristics will be found in most bands, or you might find characteristics in bands that traditionally aren't categorized as prog, or you might find some entirely different characteristic in some prog bands, etc....... So, as I see it, I think giving some examples of the "traditional" well-known prog-bands is the best we can do to clarify the examples ... These are the bands that influenced most other prog artist anyway, and when new artists show some characteristics, these are mostly based on those "traditional" examples. So maybe it's best to include some examples to give a generenal image of the prog.rock scene (as is done now) ? Of course the characteristics should be discussed in articles on the band itself, but removing those examples completely here might make the general picture too "general", too "abstract" ... The examples you left now actually are what made prog.rock what is today and has been the past decades, so as long as they're notable and limited in number, they are important in showing what prog.rock is. But that's just how i see the thing ;-) --LimoWreck 13:08, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Whoa! What kiddies are rewriting history!

All I can say is there is barely any mention of The Moody Blues! It was their producer who discovered King Crimson (real history, lads) and thus also McDonald and Giles (who also lack mention), and most later acts, god love them. Listen again to "In the Court of the Crimson King" closely. Hear the Moody Blues' influence. If you can't, then you haven't listened closely (not that you really need too, it's that obvious.) I know this article reeks of falsehoods when the grand-daddy of prog rock is considered a bit player! I lived through this stuff, kids. I know it. Fix it! It's no wonder wikipedia is a laughing stock of information.

Further: Mars Volta gets a mention? Listen closely. They have Led Zeppelin to thank for their sound, not the Blues or Crimson. Use your ears. This whole article is slip-shod.

The Moody Blues first made big waves for "symphonic classicism"--in other words, classical arrangements that accompany rock, rather than rock that aspires to be classical. Around the start of prog, the MB's overt focus was on topics like transcendental meditation--similar to the Beatles and Beach Boys, who were also using elaborate-but-not-prog arrangements, at that time. As much as Crimson may have sounded like the MBs to some, the difference in approach and composition is as plain as "Cat Food" (too experimental for the MBs) and "Ride My See-Saw" (too straight-ahead rock for Crimso).
It is true that the MBs, the Nice, etc., predate prog rock. Consequently, what needs to be fixed is the Symphonic rock article, which a.) misleadingly focuses on later prog rock bands rather than the innovators of symphonic rock, and b.) treats symphonic rock as an offshoot of prog rock, when c.) symphonic rock (bands + orchestral arrangements) actually predates prog rock. --Hriped 04:31, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

It is a little unfair to take bits and pieces from the Blues and Crimson, to say how different they are. These songs you mention were only parts of albums. They were never meant as singles. That is why both groups got very little radio time when I was growing up. Because both were album-oriented (and perhaps too experimental for radio). I want to say that I love both bands. Both deserve BIG kudos. Fans of one will be attracted to the other by virtue of their similarities, just as fans of, say, reggae, will be attracted to ska. Of course there are differences, otherwise I wouldn't be, or need to be, a fan of both.

I do see your point, and I have raised this in symphonic rock, where the Moody Blues aren't even mentioned! But that is my point. Both articles are giving little, to no credit, to the Moody Blues as a seminal band. Both from an empirical and chronological perspective, the Moody Blues influenced psychedelic, symphonic, AND progressive rock. (Back then, they were closer than you think. Almost synonymous. Musicologists and historians only began labelling and classifying these genres, in retrospect). This should be rectified to properly reflect this.

I admit to keeping the borders a bit blurry between symphonic and progressive rock , but that's how I, and many others (even TSO considers itself both prog and symphonic), grew up thinking of prog rock in the '60s and '70s: 1) Album-oriented, making some "progression" or journey through a, albeit loosely-weaved, story. 2) Musical complexity above and beyond other rock. Both the Blues and Crimson quack like ducks, and certainly swim in the same pond. And both belong equally to these articles. I lived through this time, was an original fan of both groups, and no amount of historical revision is going to change what I experienced first-hand.

I do appreciate your perspective, and I thank you for responding to me. Just don't give the Moody Blues such short-shrift in this article, is all I'm asking. It's not much. They're too important, historically, for that.

Oh, and I DO know my cat food. I have some connoisseurs at home. :) Be well.

[edit] Punk vs Progressive

This article says that punk music of the 70s led to progressive's downfall. Is there any proof for this, any verifiable written source, or is this people passing on popular opinion today? From what I understand, punk remained an underground phenomenon for a long time, and progressive acts were still successful into the 80s. I don't know if this is good as a source, but this is what makes me wonder: an interview on the Mark Prindle review page: http://www.markprindle.com/unterberger-i.htm (It's the answer to the second question.) I would appreciate any info about this.

Please sign your posts on talk pages per Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks! Hyacinth 20:20, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
The idea that punk destroyed prog is indeed a popular myth. Nothing destroyed prog. Prog just evolved into something different. Actually it evolved into a lot of different things.
The prog acts of the late 70’s and early 80’s were doing just what prog acts had always done. They were gathering influences from all the other music around them and incorporating it into their own music to keep prog ever progressive and new. But when prog bands started incorporating elements of punk and new wave, prog evolved to such a point that there was a division among prog fans.
Some prog fans could not adjust to the new era of more mechanical, futuristic progressive rock that was being played on progressive rock stations. Hence the myth that punk or other forms of music killed prog. If anything, these things sustained prog and took it to its next phase. But those who wanted a return to the more organic sound of early prog split off from the main progressive movement. Thus you had the main progressive movement, represented by progressive radio stations, and a certain faction of fans who were all about making prog into a stationary genre for bands like Marillion and Pendragon.
The actual progressive rock movement may still be very much alive and still evolving in the underground of today’s music, but you would never recognize it if you heard it. While the genre of prog, which is a different musical theory, never got killed. Rather it got born in rebellion against punk and new wave influences in an attempt to preserve the old sounds.
I know this from actually being there and witnessing the evolution and split. Unfortunately, you can’t sight what you heard on the radio nearly 30 years ago as a reference. While you can sight an infinite number of prog articles written by people who either weren’t there or didn’t know jack about prog, since it was never popular with the mainstream press. Thus most of the articles that exist perpetuate these myths, and under Wikipedia’s rules I don’t know what you can do about it.
It would be nice if you could sight the music itself as a reference. Good albums to try would be Split Enz “Time and Tide” 1982, King Crimson's "Discipline" 1981, Flash & The Pan’s “Lights in the Night” 1980, Godley & Crème’s “L” 1978 and even The Tubes self-titled album from 1975 to see that prog was absorbing the surrounding music and evolving into something that sounded nothing like classic era Genesis or Yes.
The music itself speaks volumes about what actually happened back then. But that’s a bit beyond the ability of a written encyclopedia. It would have to be demonstrated on an external site and linked to the article. Perri Rhoades 22:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Rewrote this section as its was just wrong. Punk did not destroy prog, prog was more sucessful then ever, taking album sales and tours, during the punk period and also the influence of prog on new wave bands (we constantly here about how prog bands like Rush absorbed new wave influences but what about the other way around?) shows prog survived better than punk , the article I reffed backs this up. I removed the Martin Smith quote because, well who is he? Is it the bass player from ELO? If it is so what? It could be used to show the misinterpertation of the suituation that is constantly trotted out I guess. Prog progressed, punk didn't although some punks did. Punk's not dead? Yes it is and prog is alive and kicking 30 years after the obituaries were written--KaptKos 08:08, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
It's not about who killed who. Prog isn't dead, put Punk rock's not dead at all too. It's about the genres that get attention in the media, on tv and/or radio, and by the general public. Prog had it's best days during the 70s... They did have massive following next decades, but they weren't the dominating genre... Punk still exists, prog rock does, metal exists; but they don't shape the musical landscape nowadays. Stop thinking black/white, genre xx vs genre yy... --LimoWreck 20:50, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I think you're missing my point and my point is that media attention has absolutly nothing to do with it its what the music listening public pay attention to that counts, the media started the misconception that punk killed prog and the music listening public ignored them in their millions and still bought prog records and went to prog gigs and the vast, and I mean vast, majority of the music listening public didn't buy punk records or goto punk gigs (they didn't buy or see prog either (Disco anyone?) but thats beside the point). But despite this this misconception is still, to this day, trotted out like its recieved wisdom, as in this article until now, and its just plane wrong as evidenced by the contined development of prog (Mars Volta ,Radiohead,Muse,Dream Theatre,Sigur Rós,Tool and on and on) compared with punk (Greenday?) And metal dosn't shape the musical landscape? Metallica are one of the biggest bands on the planet and have been for the last 15 years, I think metal shapes the musical landscape as much as any other genre. The black and white view was the one I removed from the article and backed up my take on things with references which I might add this article is, otherwise, completely lacking in--KaptKos 09:50, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, you're missing the point completely, nice WP:POV --LimoWreck 17:34, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Don't be glib, what point exactly am I missing? How is it POV to remove unsourced material and replace it with sourced detail? Or are you talking about my comments above which are an explaination of my changes not justification, which is the source? --KaptKos 06:49, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Don't confuse sources with POV/NPOV. It's not because this source says something, it is NPOV and can be added to the relevant article... --LimoWreck 17:27, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

But of course you can't be accused of this after your last edit? The source I used uses emperical evidence, album sales, the web cite you are using is pure POV, (no need for boldface). So critical opinion in England determines which genre is at the forefront of rock? Hmm, didn't realise its so, how can I say it? Black and white? --KaptKos 21:50, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bold sentences

I removed bold sentences from the characteristics section, according to Wikipedia:Manual of Style, as it should be reserved, within the article text, only of sub-entries (i.e., in a city article, relevant monuments which have no separate entries; names of characters in a comic book series, etc.). Attilios


[edit] Rewrite

Strange rewrite... The original section wasn't that bad; some changes seemed OK, but some statements seemed overdone, which off course results in their removal... Maybe try a less radical rewrite ? --LimoWreck 23:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


Well, my idea was just to rewrite the info that was already there so that it read better. I didn’t venture to take out anything, even though I knew it was a bit much. Apparently by making it more clear what was being said some things promptly got zapped. And I heartily approve. I like the zapped version. Now if only someone would look at the "Characteristics of progressive rock" section and give it a good culling down to Wikipedia standards. Perri Rhoades 00:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
that's sometimes the problem when rewriting for better readability... we tend to state things a bit too clear, so they're a bit exagerated ;-) --LimoWreck 08:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Don't Forget about Queen

With songs like Bohemian Rhapsody and March of the Black Queen, these guys hae also made a mark in the genre with their own creative style. I had to add their name into one of the lists present in the article I hope no one doesn't mind. 70.48.75.159 13:08, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

If they're not going to accept Kansas on the main list, they're certainly not going to accept Queen. Scottandrewhutchins 15:08, 28 June 2006 (UTC)Scottandrewhutchins

Queen is not a traditional prog rock band, add them in the seperate article List of progressive rock musicians if you like; however, this short list is limited to the few traditional prog rock names. This article is already bloated by redundant irrelevant names --LimoWreck 15:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok thats fine by me but you don't have to give me a warning about vandelism since I said what I did on here and its only one word. 70.48.75.159 21:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

sorry about that, I saw this talk page too late... lots of people try to spam their favorite bands in different music related articles, both well-known bands as hobby bands; so those were a natural reaction (one gets really tired by it sometimes)... I'll remove those warnings ;-) --LimoWreck 23:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Queen produced some Progressive Rock by any definition - at least 3 albums of it by my reckoning - but they are not famous for being a Progressive Rock outfit, and 3 albums is a tiny part of their output. They are hardly representitive of the genre. ProgArchives lists them as "Prog-Related", and that will do nicely. You can go there to explore their back catalog, and any number of Queen sites to get a flavour of how they are perceived more generally. This article needs lists like it needs a section on Mariah Carey. MarkCertif1ed 13:47, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I must say that I have a major problem with Queen being mentionned on the same line than Genesis and King Crimson as examples of 1970's prog rock bands. I propose that it is removed. --Childhood's End 13:59, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] When did ProgRock Begin?

I would argue for the inclusion of The Nice as an early band in the progrock genre. Then there is Camel, and how many others have escaped mention? What about MagnaCarta? William R. Buckley 20:38, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Keith Emerson was a member of The Nice, their style is typical progrock, what are your doubts about? --Doktor Who 13:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I did not express any doubts. I expressed an expectation. I was listening to The Nice in the mid-1970s (i.e. 1975), and well know that their music is typical of progrock. So, why are then not listed among the groups that define the genre? The fourth paragraph of the article mentions Jethro Tull, etc, as being genre-defining groups, and these came to be long after The Nice were no longer together. Neither is MagnaCarta mentioned, though they originated in the mid-1960s. My point is that progrock started well before 1970. William R. Buckley 15:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Some of the Blues Magoos' pieces like "Pipe Dream" and "Love Seems Doomed" (both 1967) are stellar examples of proto-prog: frantic tempo changes, quirky vocals and quasi-classical phrasing in places. The lyrical content is more in tune with the psychedelia of the day, but the songs themselves would prick up the ears of many a prog fan. I don't think they could be included as an early prog rock band, but some of their material may merit that designation. Twalls 20:34, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Prog Rock evolved out of the various popular music scenes of the mid-late 1960s - it's evident in the music.

The roll-call is too long to list in its entirity, but the Byrds, the Beatles, the Doors, the Nice, the Pink Floyd and the Moody Blues are all key players in its development. Although none produced bona-fide Prog Rock albums at the time, all laid down some of the foundations.

You'd need an article to explain this properly... :0)

MarkCertif1ed 09:43, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ambient noise

In the following sentence:

The Mars Volta make heavy use of ambient noise on their album Frances the Mute.

ambient noise redirects to ambient noise level. So, can we fix this without starting an edit war? There are a few articles relevant to background music, noise, ambient music and so on, let's discuss which is the most appropriate.--Doktor Who 14:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Guidelines for inclusivity

I recently discovered the genre of Prog Rock though I have been a prog rock person for about 30 years. I find it very difficult to know how to include or reject an artist from this cathegory. I could find even artists like Neil Young included with some of his pieces. Could someone name a single band or two who epitomizes this genre? Would it be someone like Pink Floyd or King Crimson and so that others would be measured by how much they depart from their model, similar to how one pomeranian differs from the ideal at a dog show? Progress is such a subjective word and genres are a kind of fixed classification; it is almost an oxymoron. It sort of makes the music to the moniker a moving target, yet I know what you mean. My current bitter sweet affection is toward Porcupine tree as well as unearthing Robert Fripp. There is something about this music that differentiates people. Some people vibrate to the surreal while others can only stand on simple reality. IAMIS 01:30, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, imho, we need music genres and styles in order to use less words when we are dealing with and describing such huge numbers of musical works and musical forms; we need words to say that the artist x is similar to artist y, that guitarist a sounds different from guitarist b, and so on; such words are meant to inform-educate-teach, they are not meant to pigeonhole for snobism or hate. I would argue that the term subgenre almost means nothing, we just need a little number of words related to genres and a larger number of words to describe styles, techniques and feelings.--Doktor Who 14:45, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I am in agreement with using genres. It is in the concept of a genre being "progressive" that confuses me. Can it progress or evolve to where it no longer resembles what it once was? Is it then split? Or maybe there could be a better descriptive to fix the style in place. There must be something else it has in common. If not then maybe it is only possessing an illusion of being progressive. In some ways "surreal rock" could fit as to me much of it is to ordinary rock as a Salvador Dali painting is to a still life painting.

We're not here to invent new terminology (see numerous Wikipedia policies, in particular WP:NAME, WP:V and WP:NOR). As the article itself notes, "Progressive rock" is the established name for a certain more or less well-defined genre of music whether or not one thinks the term "progressive" is strictly accurate. There is no question in my mind it is the correct name for this article; calling it anything else would go against both the letter and spirit of at least one of the above policies.
As to whether it can "progress" to the point where it is no longer recognizable, again, the article already notes that this is both possible in theory and may have in fact happened in practice (for example, to King Crimson). PurplePlatypus 05:36, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

It was fashionable to label music as progressive - Progressive Blues compliations were 10 a penny. Progressive Jazz had come and gone in the late 1940s-early 1950s. It was only a matter of time before Progressive Rock came into being. As for how it progresses (or doesn't!) in a literal sense, that's all in the music - as I've tried to indicate through my revamp of the Typical Characteristics.

MarkCertif1ed 09:46, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Characteristics section

I violently disagree with the restoration of the bloated monstrosity that was the old Characteristics section. Far from being "useless" or "not saying anything", the version I stripped it down to contains the same information with far less non-contributing, pointless verbiage, and the advantage of being able to actually find it. Most of the points made in the version that has just been restored are perfectly clear after a single sentence; the further elaboration and especially the bloated, fanwanky lists of examples contributes absolutely nothing.

Or such is my view, anyway. What do others think? What does all that extra verbiage actually add to the article that my version lacked? What important information that is worth all the extra length did I remove? I submit that the answers are "nothing" and "none", but if anyone sees a good reason to keep the old format, I am willing to give them a hearing. PurplePlatypus 20:57, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I really agree that the reduced section is really unreadable. Is this an encyclopedia, or just a shortlist ? An article has to contain text, explaining things; it shouldn't be a mere summary of some things. This article doesn't clarify anything anymore; it doesn't give a good feel of the characteristics, nor doesn't it shows how each characteristic is more or less relevant in the genre. The redundant crap had been removed from the previous version, and that version really was worth reading and informative. --LimoWreck 21:09, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Not disputing exactly, but merely asking for clarification - could you give a specific example of useful information in the long version but not in mine? Because it's the long version I find "unreadable". It's impossible to retain it, and I don't agree that the old version makes relative importance clearer (quite the opposite; there is a lot of pointless trivia in it). PurplePlatypus 21:19, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Eg, the short version:
  • Unusually intricate melodies and harmonies for popular music.
  • Long compositions, sometimes running over 20 minutes.
    • long compositions? What's special about them. Are those 20min long monotonous dance tracks ? Show a few typical examples (not many) to give me an idea or directions
  • Pieces made up of shorter parts that in some cases could be songs in their own right, similar to the use of movements in classical suites.
    • some typical examples are nice, just explain it a little
  • Use of unusual time signatures, rhythmic techniques, scales, or tunings.
  • Virtuoso solos, often lengthy, and sometimes for instruments that are seldom spotlighted this way in other styles of music.
  • An extremely wide dynamic range.
    • what is this short phrase about?
  • Prominent use of instruments unusual in rock music, and/or unusual vocal styles.
    • what's so unusual? Flute is something remarkable indeed, and electronica and the relation with electronic music too
  • Musique concrète, that is, the use of sound effects in compositions.
  • Inclusion of classical pieces on albums.
  • Highly literate and/or utterly opaque lyrics, which concern "serious" themes like war and religion far more often than typical pop themes such as sex and dancing.
    • listing some of the topics is more clear than just mentioning it's serious. What are serious lyrics ? Are you going to lyrically compare them to Jimi Hendrix or punk bands later on, they seriosly protested against war, right ?
  • Concept albums, sometimes also called "rock operas", in which a theme is explored throughout an entire album. Some such albums have an outright plot; most such storylines are either psychological dramas, or science fiction or fantasy tales.
    • show me some archetypes
  • No assumption that every piece must have lyrics at all; instrumentals are much more common than in other forms of rock or popular music.
    • When people read about a genre in and encyclopedia, they want some explanations insteads of a criptical list; and some archetypical well-known examples to show them some directions... --LimoWreck 21:21, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
      • by the way, I appreciate the idea of trying to keep this article "under control"; but I really think this version of the article does try to bring some nuances, without containing too much baloney. It is essential however not to include new redundant examples of people adding their pet progrock band, as having more than two (sometimes try when trying to differentiate a little) is completely unnecessary indeed... --LimoWreck 21:31, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Hello, I must tell that I am not entitled to talk here, becouse I never read such articles (music genres) from the beginning to the end, unless the article is very short. Sometimes I try, but suddenly a strong headache stops me. I believe that my humble duty is to come here from to time to time in order to check and fix inconsistencies or wrong info regarding physics of - technology for - electronics in music, as I did in analog synthesizer, but my favorite activity is to write about artists and their discographies. So, sometimes I think that this article and similar ones are too short, sometimes too long;
in this case actually there are some rebundant or wrong info in that section, but I'm not so bold to come here and edit, not for now, sorry. If we are going to split in a separate article this section, I will be happy to give my aid. --Doktor Who 21:40, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Ah, what is electronica mentioned above by LimoWreck? Do you mean electronics and relevant techniques applied in music?--Doktor Who 21:44, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Some responses to individual points made by Limowreck:

  • Long compositions, sometimes running over 20 minutes.
    • long compositions? What's special about them. Are those 20min long monotonous dance tracks ? Show a few typical examples (not many) to give me an idea or directions
Do the examples actually make it any clearer, though? Notice that the version you reverted to didn't actually contain any more information other than examples than mine - less, as a matter of fact. And the examples only help someone understand this point if someone is already familiar with them, in which case they don't need the article. Also, as far as "what's special about them", that's well covered in the other points, which pretty much rule out "20min long monotonous dance tracks". People are not going to read each individual bullet point in a vacuum. (Whereas they might very well read each lengthy paragraph in the previous version that way!)
  • Pieces made up of shorter parts that in some cases could be songs in their own right, similar to the use of movements in classical suites.
    • some typical examples are nice, just explain it a little
What needs explaining? What about this isn't clear from the single sentence I've given? I'm not saying my word choices can't be improved upon (I'm very unhappy with some of them, as a matter of fact) but in this case the point seems to be totally clear without any further elaboration needed.
  • An extremely wide dynamic range.
    • what is this short phrase about?
That's what the wikilink is for. If that isn't enough, one could always add a short explanatory note just like I did for the sound effects point. Like I said, I'm not saying every decision in my version was perfect, I'm just defending the general direction I took.
  • Prominent use of instruments unusual in rock music, and/or unusual vocal styles.
    • what's so unusual? Flute is something remarkable indeed, and electronica and the relation with electronic music too
Actually, the electronica point has always bothered me, because I don't see that connection at all. Certainly I thought it recieved too much emphasis in the previous version of the article. Having said that, I agree that mentioning the flute specifically might strengthen this point, along with a similar summary, if it can be done in just a few words, of Gentle Giant's approach to vocals. (Note that I was the one who added both these points to the previous version of the article! You don't need to tell me they're significant.)
  • Concept albums, sometimes also called "rock operas", in which a theme is explored throughout an entire album. Some such albums have an outright plot; most such storylines are either psychological dramas, or science fiction or fantasy tales.
    • show me some archetypes
Yeah, this is one I actually kind of agree with. This could be split into a couple of slightly more detailed points and it would probably be to the article's benefit. (This is also the home of some of those word choices of mine that I didn't care for.)
  • (Overall point about explanations and examples)
I'm not certain the previous version had the explanations you're attributing to it, except of fairly trivial points that distract from, rather than contribute to, getting the "big picture". (I'm actually guilty of adding some of them, like the stuff about Larks Tongues and the AA suite.) Examples, yes - it still has far too many, in fact. And what exactly do the points about political commentary and exchanging members contribute? Despite having contributed a bit of text to both, I've never really liked either of them. At the very least, those should be removed or severerly cut back. PurplePlatypus 21:46, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, I sometimes have the feeling some points are too verbose, others may be too short. The problem with musical genres is you can't really summarize things in a few words... you can't summarize it in a short list... and indeed, those more extended characteristics will have simplifications and shortcomings too. Progrock may be a loose, wide genre... Besides the traditional Genesis, Crimson, Yes,... people may place krautrock, the RIO-movement, early electronic artists, Magma's Zeuhl, Ian Carr and Nucleus' jazz-fusion,... under the krautrock "umbrella". A little more extensive explanation may try to bring some nuances, or give an indication about the importance of the point or show some typical examples; it should avoid giving the impression that the genre can be strictly definied as a number of well-defined typical characterstics. Instead of just a short summarization, many people like some "examples" of illustrations with an encyclopedia article, and some occasional trivia. The "political song" section in the article seems strange too, but well, as long as it was in such a short form ;-) It is a difficult exercise indeed to find a balance between clarity, avoid bloat and more extensive phrasing and clarification... I have seen versions of musical (sub)genre articles (mostly in another language wikipedia) that were merely an short introduction and a list of characteristics and bands; and to be honest, I didn't really "feel" what the genre was about by just seeing anything reduced to a theoretical general list ;-)--LimoWreck 22:26, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

The Characteristics section can have meaningful examples without being verbose. One-line 'characteristics' may very well be clear, but examples make them tangible - a key difference. The ones there are good, but several can be chopped in the interest of readability and the language can be streamlined in each. Twalls 22:23, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Limo, but one thing I think we can admit is that prog rock is a genre that naturally lends itself to verbosity and overcomplexity. :) Twalls

Even on talk pages ;-) Well, I think your "streamlining" was +/- OK. Something PurplePlatypus might hopefully like too. At least some of the more redundant examples are removed, but some typical "illustrations" are left. Regards --LimoWreck 02:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Good points. Yes, it could stand some more competent and thorough streamlining. I didn't fully understand the point about the use of orchestras - the original author seemed to be saying that it was rare for prog rockers to use orchestras, so I think that might qualify as a negative attribute - making itself unnecesary. Tot straks, Twalls 03:43, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The orchestra/choir stuff was originally added by me, replacing something that was in the article even earlier that implied that they were common, which certainly wasn't true (at least in the 70s). I probably replaced / elaborated it rather than simply deleting it to minimize the number of people I'd piss off, rather than because I generally thought it belonged in the article. (I've gotten BOLDer since then, as the events of this afternoon illustrate :-). Feel free to zap it. PurplePlatypus 04:53, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification on the history. It's not a bad point. We may just want to move it down to the end or zap it and work it in somewhere else. In contrast, many non-Prog classic rock acts and artists during the "Baroque pop" era (Left banke, Merry go Round etc) actually did/do use choirs/orchestras in places. Twalls 20:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Links

Why a link to French progressive rock has been removed and a link to Italian prog can stay here?--Doktor Who 13:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

At first glance:
  • the Italian prog site is dedicated to the italian progressive music of the 70's , a specific phenomen which is discussed in the article: The prog rock scene in italy: italian language, italian bands.
  • AmarokProg, in french, is just another general progrock site, Tout sur le Rock Progressif. Nothing that special, just a collection of the wellkown international bands. There already are way too may progrock review sites linked by the way --LimoWreck 14:03, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't have the time to check again right now, but I am sure that on a site named The Gibraltar encyclopedia of progressive rock as well as on progarchives.com you can easily find some further interesting groups belonging to European and also American (not US) regional scenes that don't seem to be mentioned here.--Doktor Who 17:27, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
GEPR has indeed lots of them, and is generally seen as one of the biggest references, yes. That's why the link is at the bottom of the article ;-) --LimoWreck 17:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pink Floyd?

Is it really undisputed that Pink Floyd is a Prog Rock band? Shouldn't they be along with Frank Zappa and The Moody Blues as a band that there is some controversy about? Many prog fans reject them altogether as a prog band because of their lack of virtuosity in comparison to most other bands that are characterized as progressive rock. Does anyone agree with me?

doesn't matter; WP isn't a vehicle for spreading personal opinions. They are frequently and traditionally qualified as prog band, so they're included here as well. --LimoWreck 17:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The Moody Blues were never regarded as prog-rock because they were too middle-of-the-road -- 1970s teenagers could discover that their parents liked them, so they were definitely uncool. Frank Zappa isn't prog-rock, because of the central, bitter humour that consumes much of his work. Prog-rock was always earnest, or so it seemed to its teenage followers. FZ didn't seem earnest. Arguably 'Hot Rats' is prog-rock, but an artist cannot be considered prog if he released 40+ other albums that weren't prog-rock. As for virtuosity, Pink Floyd were just as skilled as most of Yes and King Crimson, possibly excepting Howe and Wakeman. Personally, I don't regard actual virtuosity as a qualification for prog-rock; so long as the musician seemed to his audience to have high aspirations and to be capable of playing whatever he wanted, that was good enough for us fans! Gavin Wilson 20:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
There's no central, bitter humor in ELP? I beg to differ. --Scottandrewhutchins 18:38, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Helium and Mary Timony?

How about it? Prog or not?

Doens't matter. Not relevant --LimoWreck 16:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Groups that belong to the genre.

This subject is the place to list bands that should be listed.

I vote for the inclusion of Ozric Tentacles into the ProgRock article. While OT incorporates much from other genres, they clearly have a prog orientation. This comes out clearly in their (latest ?) release, "The Floors Too Far Away." William R. Buckley 18:33, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

You can add them to the list of prog bands page, but not here. They're not a well known or key band in the movement. --Scottandrewhutchins 18:38, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree that many prog bands exist, and that it is probably a bad idea to include every example within the body of article text. My primary point is to provide an example demonstrating that prog is alive and well in 2006. William R. Buckley 10:53, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
You're actually right that the article doesn't demonstrate that. The contemporary bands mentioned are mostly either prog-metal or only "influenced" by prog. Narssarssuaq 15:07, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

If you want lists of Prog Rock bands, go to a Prog Rock fansite like GEPR or ProgArchives :o)

MarkCertif1ed 13:49, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] All the talk about "complex song structures"

...needs to be more descriptive. The article glosses over what ultimately makes a progressive song progressive: linear songwriting (as opposed to verse-chorus, cyclical, narrative, etc). I mean, look at the word. Line. Straight. Moving in a straight line. From one part to another, no cycling back. Progressing from one part to the next. Simply saying the structures are "complex" quite frankly doesn't cut it. Ours18 06:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

You're right. I don't think prog is necessarily "complex" in song structure. Especially in the cases in which the music tends to move in a straight line, the structure is not really complex: "A, B, C, D, etc..." Certainly, the structure has many themes quite different one from another, but the structure isn't likely to be solid, mainly because it doesn't have at least one idea which is somehow present during all the piece (listen to Focus's masterpiece "Eruption" and compare it in structure with Dvorak's "From The New World" Symphony). So prog rock's main features don't include complexity in structure. quinceps 21:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, it could be rephrased. If there is a better term somewhere out there. Narssarssuaq 20:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

This is important - I'm working on it... :o) MarkCertif1ed 09:47, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The use of sound effects in compositions, otherwise known as Musique concrète

Are we sure this is used significantly more in prog than in other music? Narssarssuaq 15:09, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

No - and sound effects aren't necessarily known as Musique concrète. The entire page is in need of a re-write by someone who knows a little bit about music.

Since I only know a little bit, I volunteer... :o)

MarkCertif1ed 13:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Focus

They don't mention dutch progressive rock band Focus at all. I'm talking about one of the few 70's rock bands still active in the 2000s (Focus 8 was released in 2003 and Focus 9, their last album has been released recently). Although this band wasn't as popular in North America as Pink Floyd, Yes or KC, there are Focus's works in the seventies, such as Eruption, Hocus Pocus, Sylvia and House of the King, Harem Scarem, etc. which are very important in the history of Prog Rock, because of their originality (like Jethro Tull, Yes, Gentle Giant, etc. the band was recognized for its unique sound). Thijs Van Leer's yodelling has not equal in rock, not to mention that Pierre Van Der Linden's style at drums was very influent.

I'm not giving further details because there's no room for lots of data concerning just one band in this article, but I'm just reminding you about this facts - I don't know exactly where should we put the information, though. Quinceps 06 December 2006 20:54 (UTC)

[edit] Snobby

The opening paragraphs of this article are incredibly snobby as they currently stand. Major rewriting is required if this article is ever to aspire to encylopedic standards. Sorry, just felt I had to say that... quercus robur 01:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Could you point out more precisely what you dislike? I don't see a lot of problems, most of it seems NPOV. Narssarssuaq 01:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I decided to actually edit out the bits I was unhappy with rather than just complaining about it, go back in the edit history a bit and you'll see what I meant, all that stuff about fans of progresive rock music being serious listeners who are a cut above people who listen to mere pop music!!! I should have just jumped in and edited boldly from the start rather than moaning and complaining on the talk page, but had been imbibing a few fine ales which no doubt affected my critical reasoning!!! quercus robur 09:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I think it's much better - thanks! However, the sentence "Progressive rock acts often combine elements of jazz and classical music,folk and world music influences with rock formats." doesn't work quite well as a one-sentence abstract of what it's all about. Narssarssuaq 10:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Oh dear.Its back to how it was, including stripping out requests for citations that I added. Well I'm not getting into an edit war over it, hence I'll stick a cleanup tag on, someone else can sort it out. quercus robur 21:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Quercusrobur was right. Some bits are very snobby. It's unfair the fact that his/her edition somehow was "undid". There are some very popular bands classified as prog rock (e. g. Dream Theater, LTE, etc) which attracts a kind of audience not quite different from Commercial Pop & Rock fans. Yet we must consider that some progressive rock acts, such as Gentle Giant and KC's music actually may be appreciated by some serious listeners. quinceps 23:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Reverted back to quercus robur's version, as there seems to be some concensus in favour of that. Still, we should add a few (better) sentences on what prog really is about at the very top. Narssarssuaq 04:16, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Prog Rock is snobby - and why not ;o)

It has allusions to the highest forms of music, so there is bound to be some "snobiness" among its fans. That's not to say we're all snobs - it's just that many of us don't care if we have that label or not, since there is much in the music to be "snobbish" about!

MarkCertif1ed 09:49, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I added this phrase to the opening paragraph:

"As such, progressive rock can be seen as an approach to songwriting as well as a genre of its own."

I felt it would be neccesary to mention this in the opening paragraph, since it helps reinforce the idea that bands can be considered "progressive" while playing music in other established genres, like Tool who write progressive songs in the nu metal genre. Is this OK?

User:PearlTheater 00:13, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it's spot-on. Narssarssuaq 15:55, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

It's a bad idea.

Progressive as an adjective is different to Progressive Rock as a Noun.

Some of ABBA's arrangements are progressive - listen to the Suite that closes "ABBA - The Album".

Are you postulating that ABBA may be considered progressive in the same way that King Crimson may?

Didn't think so!

MarkCertif1ed 13:53, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Krautrock

This page needs a separate section on krautrock. The german scene is a key part of the history and development of progressive rock.

86.142.34.226 19:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia needs a separate page on Krautrock for that exact reason. That and the fact that Krautrock is as different as Amon Duul, Kraftwerk, Can, Faust, Guru Guru... :o) MarkCertif1ed 13:54, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article Update discussion

Hi

Please allow me to introduce... myself...

I'm Certif1ed, noted for exceptionally long and tedious reviews of Progressive Rock on the site http://www.Progarchives.com - and equally long and tedious forum replies packed with a plethora of musical ramblings and rants.

I also write music - but enough of this over-glorified self-promotion - anyone would think I was into Progressive Rock or something...


On to the article - the reason for this talk post:

Enlighten me, please - what's dubious about the phrase;

"Another common structural feature lies in extended instrumental passages that are part composed, part improvised, giving the form strong links to both jazz and classical music"?

The way I've phrased it?

Does it need fleshing out a bit more?


Maybe I should explain the links to classical music a little more - I'm trying to avoid examples unless absolutely necessary, but I guess a few won't hurt. It's easy to hear quasi-symphonic formal structuring in the music of Yes, and Gentle Giant's improvisations around the old forms are nothing short of stunning. I might also mention the Enid and a whole load of others - who anyone even remotely familiar with Prog Rock should already know inside and out.

Then there are the bands who incorporated snippets or whole pieces of classical music - surely I don't even need to mention ELP, Renaissance, et al - and we mustn't forget the bands that actually used avante-garde compositional methods or who had direct influence from it: 50% of Can studied under Stockhausen, Zappa, famously, had a soft spot for Varese (and was himself, a bona fide composer), and Shub-Niggurath composed using "Cells" or cut-down note-rows based on Serialism.

I think that the actual content is not only correct, but also the consensual perception of Progressive Rock music by the great unwashed... but I'm open to suggestion, and will happily expand the subject matter so that it makes more sense.


Secondly, what's dubious about "While the Ionian mode is still prevalent even in progressive rock" ?

If you check out most pieces by the pioneering bands, you'll notice that not too many of them wandered off this track into more "exotic" (read "older") modes - this seems to be a relatively recent phenomenon, although it's true to say that acts such as King Crimson (notably) and jazz-fusion bands (by necessity) did use them.

Examples of non-Ionian mode pieces, please - preferably well-known and representational pieces rather than marginal.

Here, I think the actual content is again correct, but probably conflicts with the general perception.


Finally, what is the general feeling of the completely re-vamped Typical Characteristics section?

I'm quite happy that only two items were flagges as dubious - I was hoping for a halfway house so that the article is readable (and understandable) by non-musical folk and also satisfies the criteria of the more serious Prog Rock fan (of which there are a great number, if GEPR, ProgArchives and such sites are anything to go by!).

Does it sum up Prog Rock in 6 nutshells, or is it too retentive and rambling - even for Prog?

It certainly kills the laundry lists of examples!


Do you like the progressive structure of this post? :o) MarkCertif1ed 10:54, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tell the story, as well as definitions and lists?

I'm beginning to think that definitions of prog rock and lists of bands and albums on the time line don't really tell the story as well as it might be told. It's almost as if the article is treating prog rock in the same way as blues, or something else relatively static. To me prog rock is about experimentation and change.

Prog rock did not spring fully formed, and I find it strange that King Crimson is seen as the start, when this doesn't seem to be what the time line says, either. I would see like to see how prog rock started. Perhaps the start was with "Tomorrow Never Knows" on Revolver (Beatles) or a Syd Barrett era Pink Floyd song (lengthy 40 minute songs on stage in London, Astronomy Domine, Arnold Layne as a single, or perhaps See Emily Play?). I would also like to know a little more about how the bands influenced each other, and how prog rock developed over time.

I know that other editors of this page know a lot more about what prog rock bands and songs are out there than I do, and I would like to know what people think of this approach.Trishm 11:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm in agreement here - but remember that Progressive Rock has become known by defining characteristics like any other genre of Rock music - it does not always progress in a literal sense. even though, on the whole, that is exactly what it did between c.1969-1975.
From the bands that define what Prog Rock is (Crimson, Genesis, Tull, Yes, ELP, etc.), it's quite easy to work backwards and see the progression from "Heavy Rock", Folk, Psychedelic Rock and everything else that wasn't Soul, fused with more established pre-rock styles that had an air of authenticity or artistry - ie, "Classical" and jazz - especially "Progressive Jazz" that developed in the late 19402/early 1950s and culminated in "Bitches Brew".
It'd take a while to go through all the important bands in its development - The Byrds, the Beatles, CSN/Buffalo Springfield, The Nice, Pink Floyd, John Mayall's Bluesbreakers, the Pretty Things, the Who, Jimi Hendrix, the Doors - and I've hardly got started (but I'm working on it!).
The next idea is good - I hadn't thought of exploring the cross-semination, and it'd be a devil of a job to research - but it's quite apparent that "In the Court..." was a major player. Again, we'd need to be careful to avoid "laundry lists" - and you'd need to check sources very carefully. This would be a tricky thing to speculate on, even with in-depth analysis of the music - do you have good sources (ie musicians from Prog bands) with whom such links could be verified and even expanded upon?

[edit] Added references to Southern Cone bands

The article originally only mentioned three "New World" bands. A better term should have been North American, since the New World does include the rest of the Americas. As such, I've added references to a few of most imaginative prog bands from one of the hemisphere's most vibrant prog scenes: Argentina's.

    • Please insert your own username here - I've edited this post because you made it look like I wrote it!

I also don't believe this article needs any more references to bands - you can always go to Prog Archives or GEPR to research the area of Southern Cone bands, or follow a simple link from this article. References removed. :o)

A NOTE TO ALL CONTRIBUTORS PLEASE RESIST THE TEMPTATION TO ADD MORE EXAMPLES, ESPECIALLY TO THE LIST OF CONCEPT ALBUMS. This is a general-purpose encyclopedia article, not an attempt at an exhaustive list. Really, at this writing ( 22:02, 21 March 2006) there are still too many examples even after a pretty good paring down by Hipred; there is absolutely no need for more. Please make sure any additions you make add useful information to the article without making it read like a laundry list. Your favorite band does NOT need to be mentioned at every turn, though by all means add ONE reference somewhere if you think someone important has been overlooked. Thank you.


MarkCertif1ed 21:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

  • In that case, if we're choosing to avoid a major scene in this hemisphere, we should use North America instead of New World.
Please insert your username!

I don't think that "major scenes" should be avoided at all - that's not what I was saying.

Examples are meaningless to everyone but those people who already know the bands cited. What is needed is a general article section that discusses the scene as a general thing, with a link to an expanded article that will contain further links to specific bands.

If it's a major scene, then it should have its own page - linked to from this one - and if the band in question is a good representative, then it too should have its own page.

BUT it should be made a part of the discussion in the article, rather than another list.MarkCertif1ed 08:55, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The terms prog or prog rock

I do not remember these terms being used in the 1970's or 1980's. It seems to come from the streamlining of words and expressions that is common practice in the internet era.. It also at times seem to be used to describe bands of more recent vintage 69.117.59.34 21:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC) (Ed Kollin)

As the article says, "It is commonly associated with symphonic rock and art rock, although the term progressive rock in today's usage often embraces a significantly wider spectrum of music than these styles". Maybe your point could be made more overtly in the article. Narssarssuaq 11:38, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, the term Progressive Rock was not in general usage until the mid 1970s - pretty much after the whole "movement" had finished.
I think this needs discussion in the aticle itself - AFAIK, the term "Progressive" was first applied to jazz in the early 1950s (possibly late 1940s), and then to blues in the late 1960s.
For examples of usage when applied to Blues, look no further than DECCA's "World of Progressive Blues Power" collections, and Johnny Winter's album.
There is a one-off usage of the term "Progressive Rock", again, by DECCA, on their collection "Wowie Zowie" (1969), which features Genesis, Savoy Brown and Touch.

The terms "Prog" and "Prog Rock" are fairly recent developments, but are held to mean the same thing as Progressive Rock - which can be very confusing, as "Classic" Prog Rock (pre 1976) and modern day "Prog" are completely different, on the whole. Indeed, most modern "Prog" seems to be a watered-down interpretation of "Classic" Prog - unless anyone can point to concrete examples that prove this conception inaccurate.MarkCertif1ed 08:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No At the Drive-In?

This seems a little off. Relationship of Command is probably one of the best examples of prog/post-rock in the 90s, and TMV's Deloused in the Comatorium definitely qualifies no questions asked.

Good article but needs to be more complete. Kyuss is another example of 90s prog leanings. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.114.13.77 (talk) 23:33, 24 February 2007 (UTC).

More examples are the last thing we need. Could you explain the phrase "Kyuss is another example of 90s prog leanings" - are you talking about a band? Is this band an excellent and representative example of 90s prog rock? Why? Thanks! MarkCertif1ed 08:26, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kudos for a Good Article.

This is a short note to all who have added to this article. Upon reading it, I find it to be very informative and enjoyable. There does seem to be anticedent commentary regarding quality and accuracy issues, and I would like to see that these are resolved, with corresponding notes on the Talk page, just so we know that all points are addressed. Bottom line, all have done a very good job. William R. Buckley 05:46, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, it's good. The next step should be to add more citations. See also WP:OR. Narssarssuaq 09:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
We're getting to it I think. Indeed, a few more citations would improve, or perhaps simply removing some unsourced statements here and there. I would also like to trim down the references to various bands and sub-styles and keep the most notable ones. --Childhood's End 13:49, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../p/r/o/Talk%7EProgressive_rock_26c9.html"