Talk:Progressive Adventist

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[edit] Need for this article

The intent of this article is to contribute to a more complete picture of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Certain other subgroups within Adventism have quite a strong representation in Wikipedia articles already. This is fine because they are sufficiently notable, but an overemphasis on any particular view will lead to a skewed perception of what the Adventist church really is.

Let's work towards making the "mainstream" view(s) the most prominent. Of course, contributors may disagree about what "mainstream" is, and there is a natural tendency for people to think of their own view as "mainstream". Don't forget that we have the talk pages to discuss these issues! Some minority positions are notable, but let's not try to pass them off as mainstream (whatever that is), or as official teachings of the church. --Colin MacLaurin, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Good idea, this article is definitely needed. Does anyone know of any statistical data that shows what fraction of the SDA church is "progressive" and what fraction is "traditional"? That would be really interesting to know.
From my own personal experience, it would take someone VERY brave to admit that they thought EGW was wrong about some things. It it was a minister, they'd be risking their job, no less. And yet, in >20 years of attending an SDA church, I can't remember a single sermon which taught about the sunday law... which probably shows what the ministers really believe deep down... Tonicthebrown 15:54, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I did find a survey on beliefs of Adventist science educators in North America regarding creation and the Bible, and have incorporated it into the article. I do not know of any other surveys regarding beliefs, but I would also be very interested to know. It would also make the article less "weasely", i.e. instead of saying "some Adventists are progressive" we could say "x% of pastors believe in doctrine X". --Colin MacLaurin 05:38, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Tonicthebrown, regarding your earlier comment, I have done some research and found that there have been some changes in the church regarding the authority of Ellen White's writings. Must research has been done since the 1970's and 1980's, when critical books such as The White Lie and Prophetess of Health came out. Herbert Douglass' Messenger of the Lord reflects a modern position more than I might have expected. Certainly Alden Thompson's Inspiration had a strong conservative reaction, but that was back in 1990 or so. Graeme Bradford's Prophets are Human is endorsed by the South Pacific Division President. But I must admit that I was surprised to find Clifford Goldstein call her "fallible" (although he did qualify the statement somewhat). Examples such as him demonstrate that there has been a shift in thinking in the church.
Bradford wrote his book because he was concerned that unrealistic views of her prophetic gift would not stand up to scrutiny, possibly leading to a complete rejection of her writings, "throwing the baby out with the bath water", as exhibited by Walter Rea. Books such as his have a pastoral concern - they are positive, not critical in tone. Personally, I know of no Adventist scholar or pastor who does not believe that Ellen White had the prophetic gift, although I am sure they do exist. Colin MacLaurin 10:48, 29 October 2006 (UTC) (spelling edited)

Let me just comment, incidentally, that although I am the original creator of this page, it doesn't necessarily mean that I hold to the positions mentioned therein. To take a sample, I believe that Ellen White had the gift of prophecy, I believe in a young-earth creation, I believe in a historicist interpretation of apocalyptic prophecy, and I have never spoken in tongues in any sense of the term! (Just thought I'd clarify that as I've taken the risk of being open about my name and personal details). -Colin MacLaurin 19:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC) I am very loyal to the church, and strive to be positive towards people who disagree on some points, even if others use strong or critical language. -Colin MacLaurin 09:56, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Did Ellen White label progressive Adventists as superficial conservatives?

Here's the Ellen White quotation sourced for the term "superficial conservatives" in the article. It does not link progressive Adventists, described in this article, to the term superficial conservatives. To assert this is highly POV. Also, the language is very loaded.

"The work which the church has failed to do in a time of peace and prosperity she will have to do in a terrible crisis under most discouraging, forbidding circumstances. The warnings that worldly conformity has silenced or withheld must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith. And at that time the superficial, conservative class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work, will renounce the faith and take their stand with its avowed enemies, toward whom their sympathies have long been tending. These apostates will then manifest the most bitter enmity, doing all in their power to oppress and malign their former brethren and to excite indignation against them. This day is just before us. The members of the church will individually be tested and proved. They will be placed in circumstances where they will be forced to bear witness for the truth. Many will be called to speak before councils and in courts of justice, perhaps separately and alone. The experience which would have helped them in this emergency they have neglected to obtain, and their souls are burdened with remorse for wasted opportunities and neglected privileges." {5Testimonies 463.2} [emphases added by e.Shubee]
Colin MacLaurin 07:54, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
The amended paragraph read, "Progressive Adventists are members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church who consider themselves to be theologically progressive relative to the denomination. They have also been referred to as superficial conservatives[1] because of their affinity to mainstream Christianity and are also labeled cultural Adventists[2] since they feel an attachment towards the Adventist church for cultural reasons, instead of strict theological conformity."
"... Most progressive Adventists still identify more with conservative Christianity than liberal Christianity."
The article itself admits that progressive Adventists have an affinity to mainstream Christianity. Ellen White said that they have sympathies for mainstream Christianity. Progressive Adventists virtually confess to be apostates. Ellen White calls them apostates. True Seventh-day Adventists have many "avowed enemies" that belong to conservative Christianity, not liberal Christianity. Ellen White thought of conservative Christianity as a superficial, conservative class of Christians. --e.Shubee 14:08, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
The label "progressive Adventists" is just as loaded as the phrase "superficial conservatives." The meaning ascribed to these terms merely weigh the assessment of mainstream Christianity from two opposing points of view. Progressive Adventists believe that progressing toward mainstream Christianity is a good thing. Other Adventists take the opposite point of view and say absolutely not and agree with Ellen G. White who wrote, "Babylon is the church, fallen because of her errors and sins, because of her rejection of the truth sent to her from heaven."[3] --e.Shubee 14:57, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
The aim of progressive Adventists is not to progress towards the Christian mainsteam - it is to seek truth (like all Christians). On many points, this may take them towards the Christian mainstream. But on others, it will not - for example most evangelicals are Calvinists, but progressive Adventists do not want to become Calvinists! Eternal hell is presumably still more popular than conditional immortality, but I don't believe any progressive Adventist would believe in eternal torment in hell. The comparison was simply for illustration - one could also make a comparison that more conservative Adventists may have points in common with conservative evangelicalism, or fundamentalism. This is not an insinuation of alliance. There is no evidence that Ellen White is referring to progressive Adventists in this quotation. Regarding terminology, the term "progressive" appears to be the preferred self-label (just read Spectrum or Adventist Today). -Colin MacLaurin 15:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
You are correct in saying that progressive Adventists don't have a written or premeditated plan to join the Christian mainstream and that they are just, coincidentally, moving in that direction. On that point Ellen White said that the superficial conservatives were moving in the direction of their sentiments.
An obvious synonym for "cultural Adventists" is "nominal Adventists." Consider the following prophecy, which parallels Ellen White's expectations about the superficial, conservative class of Adventists:
"I saw the nominal church and nominal Adventists, like Judas, would betray us to the Catholics to obtain their influence to come against the truth. The saints then will be an obscure people, little known to the Catholics; but the churches and nominal Adventists who know of our faith and customs (for they hated us on account of the Sabbath, for they could not refute it) will betray the saints and report them to the Catholics as those who disregard the institutions of the people; that is, that they keep the Sabbath and disregard Sunday." Spalding and Magan Collection, p. 1.
It is clear from this passage that the "nominal church" can only be the superficially conservative but apostate protestant church and that "nominal Adventists" are prophesied to join together with other nominal, superficially conservative, cultural Christians to persecute true Adventists. Consequently, my edit was fair. It is true that Ellen White thought of conservative Christianity and nominal Adventists as a superficial, conservative class of Christians. --e.Shubee 17:46, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
In my opinion, progressive Adventists could not be described as "nominal" because they are not "nominal Christians", but by contrast are very active and care deeply about their faith! I recognize that you are probably mean "nominal" in the sense of not being completely (traditionally) Adventist, but I do not think the term is the most appropriate. Colin MacLaurin 08:47, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some ideas and thoughts

This is a very interesting article and long overdue. I have a few thoughts that I would appreciate discussion on and eventual incorporation into the article.

  • Both historic and progressive Adventists consider themselves to be representing true Adventism. The progressive Adventists tout the notion of present truth as justification for their adjustments of viewpoint. The historic Adventists believe they are holding to a set of beliefs more true to what the early church believed. I think a case can be made that historic Adventists usually follow 1920s and 1930s Adventism and the progressives have the same spirit of discovery as the contemporaries of Ellen White.
  • Ervin Taylor, editor of Adventist Today, makes the comment that sociologically and historically Adventism should be fundamentalist. He argues that the event that "saved" us was the need to accredit the union colleges in America. It became a requirement that feeder colleges to medical institutions needed to be accredited, which meant that a large number of professors at the union colleges were required to take PhDs in secular universities. This allowed a widening of ideas and a greater degree of open-mindedness. In conversation with Ervin Taylor when he was at Avondale, I asked him if he was concerned that our institutions offering PhDs could result in a move towards fundamentalism, he replied that he is concerned.
  • This will be an ongoing discussion, but progressive doesn't seem the right word. I am struggling to find the right word, the article is correct, liberal suggests a rejection of evangelical belief, left-wing is meaningless in the context of a church (it could mean anything from liberal to concern for the poor). I guess I am concerned that some of the beliefs expressed on the page a representative of a large spectrum of Adventist scholars. For example, Alden Thompson has done a lot to advance understanding of thought inspiration, but I would be uncomfortable calling him a progressive. Again, I don't the correct term. -Fermion 10:51, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Insightful comments Fermion! Interesting discussion about Ervin Taylor. If you can reference any part of it, it would fit well on Association of Adventist Forums. As for terminology, I agree that "liberal" is not the right word, because what's theologically liberal for Adventism (a conservative denomination) is not liberal in the broader scheme of Christianity. "Liberal" is a stronger term, sometimes used with a negative connotation. As mentioned above I understand "progressive" to be the preferred self-designation. Does this label have a negative connotation to you? Do you think there would there be a better term to describe Alden Thompson, or are you simply uncomfortable with labels? I am becoming increasingly aware that a sizeable proportion of scholars disagree with certain aspects of our traditional understanding. Perhaps this could be acknowledged in articles but without using a label? Colin MacLaurin 15:38, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
This Ervin Taylor interview with Clifford Goldstein (particularly the last question or two), whould be able to highlight at least Goldstein's view, although Taylor has rather pointed questions, it could still be of assistance to differentiate "cultural adventists" and "progressive adventists". The definition that Taylor uses there is not the one that this page uses I think. Ansell 21:53, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
To me it seems consistent. It defines "cultural Adventists" as those who disagree with some of the doctrines (primarily), or religious practices (less emphasis given to this). Colin MacLaurin 07:00, 26 November 2006 (UTC)... On second thoughts, now that I have read it again, I agree with you Ansell. I have differentiated the two somewhat. Change it more if you think it needs it. Colin MacLaurin 12:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
It seems to be okay as it is unlikely that a small mention like that will have its own page, and it is most closely related to this page. I have never heard the term before that so I am not sure how much better it could be described. Ansell 20:59, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
IMO, "progressive Adventist" is a suitable term for someone who has considered the theological issues in some depth and decided that they disagree with traditional or mainstream Adventism at one or more points. i.e. the term has doctrinal/theological significance. On the other hand, "cultural Adventist" is a broader term which may include people who are simply "nominal", i.e. they stick around in the church because that's where they're culturally comfortable, but haven't looked into theology. Tonicthebrown 12:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. Comment that Cultural Christian has a different connotation than "Cultural Adventist" added. Colin MacLaurin 08:53, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Getting back to Fermion's post, the first two comments were excellent in my opinion, and I request that they be added to the page and preferably cited as well. Colin MacLaurin 08:56, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
OK Fermion I have tried to integrate your comments which I think contain excellent material. Please contribute yourself, as I'm sure you could make some helpul contributions to the article. Cheers, Colin MacLaurin 11:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

  1. ^ Ellen G. White, Testimonies for the Church Volume Five, p. 463.
  2. ^ http://www.atoday.com/486.0.html
  3. ^ White, Ellen G. [1888] (1999). "The Final Warning", The Great Controversy: Between Christ and Satan. The Ellen G. White Estate, 607. ISBN 0-816-31923-5. Retrieved on 2006-06-06. 
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