Talk:President pro tempore of the United States Senate

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[edit] President pro tempore (other than the United States)

President pro tempore redirects to this page. I don't think it should, as there are presidents pro tempore in other countries as well (such as the Philippines, to name one). -TheCoffee 05:56, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Make a disambiguation page and check for links that need to be changed, then. john k 17:50, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalization

I notice that the term is capitalized as "President pro tempore," when I am under the impression that GPO style manual and Latin grammar (as well as long-held Senate convention) require that the actual term be capitalized as "President pro Tempore," with the second "p" lower-case, when used as a proper noun (in conjunction with the name of the individual or in reference to a specific individual), and "president pro tempore" - all-lowercase - when used generically. Has the style changed, or is this new capitalization as used on this web page simply a mistake? As the graphic designer for a particular State Senate, we've always deferred to the GPO style manual (and our own "correct" use of the term, going back to 1850), but I'm very surprised to see the Wikipedia page capitalize it in what I think may be the incorrect fashion. I will change it now, but understand if someone with a better grasp of both Latin grammar and the history of the term changes it back. Moehong 18:24, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

  • The correct spelling, according to the U.S. Constitution, is "President pro tempore. It may have latin origins, but Latin rules don't apply-> I would go from the following sources: U.S. Constitution (Ppt), Senator Stevens, the current officer (PPT), and the Senate reference desk (ppt). Heck, they can't be consistent, how can you expect us to do it right? Wikipedia has, historically, been a but unreliable as far as capitalization, so that should explain your surprise at finding a different rule.—Markles 21:21, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


Regardless of the way things were concluded regarding appropriate capitalization, it is my thought the term should be presented consistently on the page. Using both possibilities looks sloppy. Reading the Senate article on the office [1] would indicate that the title should be printed without capitalization in general print, though the heading of this article should likely be capitalized. It seems as though this should be the primary authority, since grammar in the Constitution is archaic, and Senator Stevens occupies the position, but isn't necessarily any authority on it. Respectfully, Chuchunezumi 200607142154


The correct spelling of "pro tempore" is without capitalization, except the heading of an article. It is sure and unquestionable. V79benno 200607251308 -- A latin scholar and expert of linguistics.

[edit] 'As of'

Is there any good reason 'as of' (at the beginning of the last sentance of the first paragraph) is a wiki link? 'As of' doesn't seem to be that complicated a phrase, and it being a link is clearly not a typo. Tkessler 20:37, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

If you follow the link, it points to a project page about the use of "as of..." links. Basically, you try to keep article pages from being date-sensitive; however, when this is unavoidable, you attach a link whose target is as of yyyy, where yyyy is a year. This helps people to keep track of the pages which may expire so that they can keep them up to date. Please see Wikipedia:as of and Wikipedia:Avoid statements that will date quickly for more information about these topics. — DLJessup 03:02, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Counterpart in the House

The introduction currently contains the sentence:

The President pro tempore's counterpart in the House is the Speaker, who wields considerably more political power.

I don't think that this is an accurate statement. The Speaker is the default chair of the House of Representatives. The default chair of the Senate is the President of the Senate, i.e., the Vice President. The problem here is that there really isn't a counterpart to the President pro tem in the House. Originally, the Speaker pro tempore would have been analagous to the President pro tempore, but ever since the President pro tem became a permanent office, that role has been taken over by Acting Presidents pro tempore.

In any case, I'm going to remove that sentence shortly.

— DLJessup 13:37, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Incorporating article on Presidents pro tempore of the United States Senate, 1911-1913

Should we just incorporate Presidents pro tempore of the United States Senate, 1911-1913 into this article, and "afd" the 1911-13 article? I don't know, really. Just a thought. —Mark Adler (markles) 19:09, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

As the creator of the article, I have to disagree. The list is necessary information, but to big to effectively put on the main page. I think the current system (having the article noticably linked in the History section of President pro tempore of the United States Senate) is effective as a split-off (where content is important, but too great to fit into the main article, like Episode lists from television shows. Staxringold 14:08, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge proposed

Support. (I'm proposing the same for House Speaker & Senate Floor leaders). Most other articles about Congressional officers have their lists included in the articles. I think, just for the sake of consistency, that they should be merged for the Speaker, too. The only reason for keeping them separate that I can imagine is if we had multiples lists like we do for POTUS (for example: by age, by time served, by state, etc). —Mark Adler (markles) 15:48, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Oppose The difference is the list for Senate pro tem is INSANELY long. We really need the seperate article for it to be readable... Staxringold 12:54, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Oppose The list is too long. Behun 03:51, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Feeble old men

There has been considerable discussion over recent years, especially since the custom of giving the post to the longest-serving member of the majority party, of removing this office from the Presidential succession or moving it further down. In recent years it has been held by very elderly men, such as Robert Byrd and the late Strom Thurmond, who seem unlikey to have been good choices to have served as Acting President, especially in the time of crisis that surely would be ongoing were the President, Vice President, and Speaker of the House were all to have died or become incapacitated relatively simuletaneously. (I'm personally not all that sanguine about the prospects of Acting President Ted Stevens, either.) Failing this, it has been suggested that this custom should be abrogated and replaced with something like the "emeritus" designation. Shouldn't this at least be mentioned somewhere in the article where presidential succession is covered? Rlquall 16:12, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Order of Succession

In one place in the article, the officer was said to be "fourth" in the line of presidential succession, and in another, the office was said to be "third". I'm inferring that the editor who said "fourth" was considering the President himself to be first.

Since the President does not actually succeed himself, I've changed "fourth" to "third", to make the statements consistent with one another. -- Heath 69.174.67.197 21:29, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I see the order was changed again to fourth with no comment. I'm putting it back to third. Even the link to the line of succession page starts with the vice president as 1, and President pro tempore (Ppt) is number 3. This page should be consistent with that page, even if you don't agree on the definition of succession (and should be consistent with itself elsewhere in the article). As it is worded now, "in line of succession to the presidency..." also suggests the line coming afterward. And, most of the search results on google start with VP as number 1. One article shows the Presidential Line of Succession starting with the president, which is a different way to phrase it. So rephrasing might help you get Ppt as number 4, but as it stands, it should be 3. goodeye 15:05, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Illogical statement

Senator Robert Byrd, the President pro tempore at the time, took the place of Vice President Dick Cheney, who was still under Secret Service and military protection as a precaution against an attempt on President Bush's life.

The final part of this sentence makes no sense. Why would the VP be under protection if the President's life was in danger?

Someone please clarify this. If I did, I'd go with 'as the evil Dr. Cheney was secreted in his headquarters, planning to kill thousands of Iraqis.' So you obviously don't want me doing it...

[edit] Kennedy

Please excuse me, but would not Sen. Kennedy become President pro tempore rather Sen. Byrd, since the latter is already President pro tempore emeritus? I would assumed that that position was permanent (for as long the holder was in the Senate). --Anglius 02:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

There's no real precedent, because the office of President pro tempore emeritus was only created in 2001 (for Senator Thurmond), and Senator Byrd is the only other one who has held it. The assumption is that the Presidency pro tempore will return to Senator Byrd, who would certainly claim the office, as he is a great afficionado of and stickler for Senate rules procedure and enjoyed the role. Newyorkbrad 02:42, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I thank you, sir. Also out of curiosity, would the Republicans remain in office if one more senator of their party had been elected or re-elected (in the place of a Democrat)?--Anglius 03:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
If one more Republican had been elected, the party division would have been 50 Democrats and 50 Republicans. The Constitution provides that the Vice President is the President of the Senate with the power to break ties, and Vice President Cheney is a Republican, so if that had happened, we would have had a divided Congress with the Democrats controlling the House and the Republicans controlling the Senate. Newyorkbrad 03:09, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Sir, I appreciate your information and apologise if I wasted your time.--Anglius 03:13, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Sharing information is why we are here. Newyorkbrad 03:17, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I thank you.--Anglius 03:53, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Continuous office?

Is the office continuous? or was it vacant (for example), from Noon EST Jan 3, 2007 to Noon EST Jan 4, 2007. If continuous, wouldn't have Stevens had to resign (as PPT), so that Byrd could be sworn in? GoodDay 21:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Even in the middle of a session, a resolution electing a new President pro tempore would have the effect of ousting the old one. I need to do some research on whether the President pro tempore holds over into a new Congress. I believe that despite the fact that the Senate, unlike the House, is a "continuing body," the answer is No. I based this on, among other things, the fact that in 1947, when there was a dispute at the outset of the 80th Congress over the seating of reelected Senator Theodore Bilbo, at a time when there was no Vice President in office, sessions were presided over by the Secretary of the Senate rather than the President pro tempore from the preceding Congress. I'll update this and work the information into the article when I can get to the library. Newyorkbrad 21:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
The office is a continuous office, held until the Senator who is President pro tempore dies, resigns, is replaced by another Senator, or if his term as Senator expires. Thus, from noon EST 3 January 07 until passage of Senate Resolution 3 (I think) which elected Robert C. Byrd as President pro tempore around 1:00 PM EST on 4 January 07, the President pro tempore was Ted Stevens. Stevens did not have to resign as President pro tempore since the office is held at the pleasure of the Senate. When the Senate elects a new member as President pro tempore, the former PPT just ...stops having that title and the new member becomes PPT.
I have no knowledge over the dispute in the 80th Congress that Newyorkbrad mentioned above, except that the Rules of the Senate provide for the Secretary of the Senate to preside in the absence of a Vice President and pending an election for President pro tempore.
I suppose people might enjoy a source for my information. U.S. Senate>Art & History Home>Officers & Staff>President Pro Tempore which says in pertinent part: "Before 1890, the Senate elected a president pro tempore only for the period when the vice president would be absent. Since 1890, the president pro tempore holds office continuously until the election of another president pro tempore." Also, Rule I of the Standing Rules of the Senate which says, in pertinent part:
"1. In the absence of the Vice President, the Senate shall choose a President pro tempore, who shall hold the office and execute the duties thereof during the pleasure of the Senate and until another is elected or his term of office as a Senator expires.
2. In the absence of the Vice President, and pending the election of a President pro tempore, the Acting President pro tempore or the Secretary of the Senate, or in his absence the Assistant Secretary, shall perform the duties of the Chair."
Hope this helps clear it up. JasonCNJ 00:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
That interpretation seems to be consistent with Congress of the United States#Term, although I still plan to hit the books for a better source when I can. Newyorkbrad 01:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
You're going to look for a better source than the standing rules of the Senate? I can't imagine, other than some sort of ruling by the Supreme Court (which I am quite certain does not exist) that a "better" source exists. I'm curious as to what you have in mind? Cheers, JCO312 13:37, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Clarification: It's not 100% clear to me whether the Rules speak to the situation at the opening of the session as opposed to between sessions. What I have in mind is something like a senator saying on the first day of the new Congress, "we don't need a resolution electing a President pro tempore this year because Senator X is still in office." (Incidentally, although not relevant to this situation, some of the Standing Rules of the Senate are out-of-date and do not necessarily reflect actual current practice.) Newyorkbrad 14:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
There's almost certainly not going to be any such statement (if only because there's no particular reason to say such a thing). The best anecdotal evidence I can think of is the absence of any resolution electing Senator Thurmond President Pro Tempore from the 106th Congressional Record. Such a resolution exists in the 105th Congress, when Senator Thurmond replaced Senator Byrd, and a similar resolution exists in the 107th Congress when Senator Byrd takes back the position. Other than searching the Congressional Record I can't think of a way to demonstrate that (since proving a negative remains quite tough to do). JCO312 14:54, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I just checked the Congressional Record and found exactly what you did. The Senate doesn't elect a President pro tempore when the sitting President pro tempore continues to serve as a member of the majority party, which confirms your position exactly. With regard to 1947, the incumbent President pro tempore could not preside because he had been reelected in 1946 and had not yet been sworn in as a member of the new Congress, and hence was not deemed capable of presiding (although the Constitution doesn't require the President pro tempore to be a sitting Senator, that has always been the practice). Bottom line, I now agree in full with JCO312. (We won't get into the old debates about whether the Vice President had to leave the room before a President pro tempore could be elected. :) ). Regards, Newyorkbrad 16:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] President Sucession Act

So, had Bush & Cheney died/resigned, during Jan 3-4, 2007. Senator Ted Stevens, would have become President (serving out term 'til January 20th, 2009), as the House Speakership was vacant. GoodDay 18:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Kinda. If Bush and Cheney died/resigned between noon on January 3 until about 1:30 PM on January 4th, Senator Stevens, as President pro tempore of the Senate, would have become Acting President of the United States until the expiration of the then-current Presidential term. (Although I suspect he would no longer server if he nominated, and Congress confirmed, a person for the office of Vice President.)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by JasonCNJ (talk • contribs).
Acting President? Don't you mean President? GoodDay 21:40, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
No, he means Acting President (see the article). Only the Vice President can assume the Presidency directly. Any other individual would only become Acting President, and could assume the office only by appointing themselves as Vice President, and being confirmed of course. JCO312 21:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
That's not what the 1947 Presidential Succession Act says. GoodDay 22:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Reviewed, an external link of the 1947 Succession Act: Indeed it does state; that ONLY the Vice President can assumes the Presidency upon the death, resignation, removal from office of the President. The other officers, could only be Acting President. Amazing, I though the Succession Act was created to prevent a Presidential vacancy (it doesen't). GoodDay 22:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
An Acting President can't nominate a vice president. The 1947 Act is confusing, furthermore if the Speaker (for example) resigns before assuming (only) the presidential powers & duties, he/she can't assume duties ,as he/she is no longer Speaker. GoodDay 22:25, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
As we discussed on our talk pages, an Acting President could absolutely nominate a Vice President. The Act gives all of the powers of the presidency to the Acting President, which would, of course, include the power to appoint a Vice President, who would immediately assume the office of President (as ONLY the Vice President can actually succeed to the Presidency). As far as the resignation thing goes, I think you're reading is hyper-technical. The Act requires the person to resign immediately before taking over as Acting President, and as the law itself requires it, it can't reasonably be said to mean that the person would no longer be qualified. JCO312 23:22, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Recommend, this discussion be moved to Talk: Presidential Succession Act. GoodDay 23:28, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How is the President Pro Tempore elected?

As well, who elects them? --Notmyhandle 05:50, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The President pro tempore is elected by the membership of the Senate and serves office until his term as Senator expires, he dies or resigns or is expelled, or another Senator is elected as President pro tempore. Traditionally, the longest-serving Senator of the majority party is elected unanimously as President pro tempore. When a new President pro tempore is to be elected, the Majority Leader brings a privleged resolution to the floor (to wit: "Resolved, that N, a Senator from the State of X, be and is hereby elected President pro tempore.") and asks for consent that it be agreed to. (Consent is always granted.) There is no record vote or even, really, a voice vote on it. That answer your question? JasonCNJ 08:01, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Good explanation! Can you provide a source and then copy it to the main article?—Markles 12:57, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
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