Talk:Prem Rawat/temp1

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Thanks Richard for your contributions. The prose in the article needs work and I see you have a good style. I will continue adding more facts during the next days. --Zappaz 21:54, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

No, thank you and Andies and Gary for the calm rational approach. This Jim character is toxic and I will not devolve into his namecalling and bullying. I simply will not respond to this. Perhaps his goal is to make it as unpleasant a process as possible so that neutral POV is not present, I just don't know. But he seems to argue every minor point to death and frankly in such an unpleasant way that I can't help but think he has some deep emotional issues with this whole thing. When did he leave the "cult"? Maybe he's just going through something, I don't know....
Thomas raised a question that your efforts are "service" to Rawat. I don't really know what that means. Is he saying you are being paid to contribute? If so, you should disclose that, in my opinion. Or are you just a volunteer? No offense meant, of course. Richard G. 15:35, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Edits/Rationale

First cut and creating a more flowing piece, adding citations where appropriate. Trying to make this thing less vague and more specific, especially about the Knowledge, but not being a practitioner, it's a bit tough...doing my best here, though, and I'm sure we'll have many edits.

Looking for the resume on his website...can't find it. Anyone have the URL? Richard G. 18:28, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

  • Added link to the web archive where you can find his resume. You may need to turn-off javascript in your browser to read it.
  • Also added to the intro a small paragraph to state that there is controvesy and criticism
  • You could attempt to take a shot to summarizing the criticism from the Critcism of Prem Rawat article abd putting it in the Criticism section.
64.81.88.140

[edit] Edits

Thanks Richard for your contributions. I thing the article is shaping up nicely. There is still more work to do, as always... hope to find some more time for this, now that Criticism article is almost completed.

Andries: we had an agreement: You were supposed to be editing Prem_Rawat/temp2. Please afford me and other editors to develop an article as agreed.

--Zappaz

[edit] Type III Apostates

Good work on the critics sumamry. That was a great find, Richard. I quote here the paragraph about the Type III apostate:

Type III narratives define the role of the apostate. In this case, the ex-member dramatically reverses his or her loyalties and becomes a professional enemy of the organization he or she has left. "The narrative," in Bromley’s terms, "is one which documents the quintessentially evil essence of the apostate’s former organization chronicled through the apostate’s personal experience of capture and ultimate escape/rescue."[8] The former organization could easily label the apostate a traitor. However, the apostate—particularly after having joined an oppositional coalition fighting the organization—often claims that he or she was a "victim" or a "prisoner" who did not join voluntarily. This, of course, implies that the organization itself was the embodiment of an extraordinary evil. Having been socialized into an oppositional coalition, the apostate finds a number of theoretical tools (including powerful brainwashing metaphors) ready for use, which help to explain precisely why the organization is evil and able to deprive its members of their free will.


Massimo Introvigne is wrong in the case of ex-premies who admit that they joined voluntarily and deny having been brainwashed. [1] Andries 22:14, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
John Brauns says that. Other expremies (type III apostates), speak to the contrary and say that they were victims. They also resort to other theoretical tools, including Brauns discourse about the reasons for joining.--Zappaz 22:38, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I think the critics' main focus is on concrete complaints instead of theoretical tools such as "mind control", and indoctrination. Apart from that people naturally try to understand their understand their own experiences and then resort to "theoretical tools". Introvigne's article hardly applies to this case. Andries 22:45, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)


Another quote from same paper shed light on the discusssion about number of ex-premies and their representation:

A distinction may be established here between visible and invisible former members. Most former members are invisible insofar as they do not care to discuss their former affiliation. In fact, their very existence can often only be discovered through quantitative research that is able to access a group’s membership records. They are less likely to be available even for qualitative sociological work, although this should not be ruled out entirely. Visible former members are primarily apostates, and the oppositional coalitions they have since joined make every effort to assure their visibility. In a much smaller proportion, defectors may also become visible, and can occasionally be mobilized by those organizations attacked by the apostates. They may also spontaneously come out of their social closet to defend their former organization as being unfairly criticized or misrepresented. This means that, although apostates (and defectors) may constitute only a minority of former members of several organizations, no matter how controversial, they may well constitute the majority of visible ex-members. This is a risk run also by mainline and relatively noncontroversial organizations. Vocal apostate ex-priests are much more visible than the quiet majority of former priests who prefer not to go public with their defector-type narratives. The almost exclusive visibility of apostates may also become the rule for controversial organizations such as some new religious movements.

--Zappaz 20:39, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Before you go out on a limb using this text from Massimo Introvigne, which can be found here: http://www.cesnur.org/testi/Acropolis.htm you might want to note that this excerpt is taken from an article titled: "Defectors, Ordinary Leavetakers and Apostates: A Quantitative Study of Former Members of New Acropolis in France." For more information about the controversy that Introvigne himself has been embroiled, you can look here: http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/storia/gb04.htm and here: http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/storia/gb05.htm
I'm not making any judgments either way about New Acropolis or any other of Introvigne's affiliations. However, Introvigne is not necessarily an unbiased researcher of New Religious Movements and his credentials as a sociologist are also questioned.
For more information you can investigate this website called "Apologetics Index." In particular, this page called "What you Should Know about CESNUR."
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c10a01.html
If CESNUR (Introvigne - founder) is to be used as a scholarly reference for this and other Wiki articles on NRMs, then its scholars also must be researched fully and critically in order to to verify their credibility and personal motives.
Here is another article about Introvigne: http://www.rickross.com/reference/apologist/apologist16.html
Thank you. Cynthia Sept 9, 2004
Addendum: I've edited the resources section to show the entire title of article. Cynthia 9/9/04
Cynthia. Please write your comments at the bottom of the page. Othwerwise is hard to follow. Thanks.
Regarding the credentials of Introvigne, clearly he will be challenged by the anti-cult movement as CESNUR and the many scholars that support that organization around the world, are the target of their discourse. The anti-cultists call them apologetics and have invented a barrage of accusations against them in an attempt to reduce their credibility, that is very substantial. Rick Ross, Hassan and others do not have the rigorousness of research as shown by Introvigne and other scholars. IMO, Rick Ross bigotry is simply disgusting, and regarding Kelebek, don't get me started.. --64.81.88.140 16:31, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Gary D's second thoughts

Zappaz, you have kindly asked me to come over and give temp1 a copyedit. I'm of course very flattered, and I do want to help out. Upon reviewing the article, however, I see a problem: to be honest with you, I think the PR article (any of the current alternative versions of it, in fact) needs fundamental rework, of the tear-down-to-the-bones-thrash-structurally-and-reapply-new-meat variety. This is the kind of thing I could attempt (as painful as that might be) with the main version when all factions are represented and not feel like I was stepping on any toes, as I could simply be brutal in my editing in the name of a better final product. In contrast, though, temp1 was explicitly set up to give the pro faction a chance to construct an article version in peace, and while frankly it was expected that the resulting product might tend toward a pro-PR bent (just as it was expected temp2 might tend toward an anti-PR bent), it would represent a finished product that the pro faction could use as their benchmark and as a resource for contributions to the final article. In other words, temp1 was explicitly set up as a haven for a pro-PR editing stance where no one was going to come in and fundamentally thrash your work into unrecognizability. I fear, though, if I perform the copyedit that the little editor voice in my head starts describing when I scan through the current article, that is precisely what I will be doing to your efforts. That would mean my brutally thrashed, practically unrecognizable article sitting atop your temp1 edit history. You would then be faced with whether to revert large portions of it to recover your original effort, which might be personally awkward for you because you and I are enjoying a cordial relationship and you wouldn't want to seem ungrateful after asking me to come over here in the first place. In other words, I would characterize your gracious request to me as being to come over and polish temp1 before it is thrown to the wolves, but I must now make clear to you, my friend, that I am one of the wolves. With all that in mind, I am disposed to backing away from a temp1 edit. However, I am your servant and will do what you like with regard to your version. I could attempt a style-only edit, but most of the text already looks reasonably readable, and the boundary between stylistic and substantive editing can get fuzzy, especially for me once the adrenaline starts pumping. I would be more than happy to do the full edit, but you now understand what that would entail. I suppose I could do something on yet another temp page. To minimize any personal awkwardness for you, I am adopting "standing down" as my default position, so that you need do nothing; unless I hear from you affirmatively otherwise, I will simply suspend my plan to copyedit temp1. I'm sorry for any inconvenience. --Gary D 08:37, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)

Thank you Gary for the honesty and candor. Much respected and appreciated.
I have "saved" the current revision at Prem_Rawat/temp1/Rev_a, so this is my humble request to you:
  1. Go ahead, get the editor-"wolf" in you loose, get the adrenaline flowing, and copyedit temp1 mercilessly.
  2. One condition, thought: Do the edit within my proposal of two separate articles, i.e. Summary of criticism with link to Criticism of Prem Rawat
Looking forward to see the results of your work on temp1, if you agree with the above :).
(I hope that Richard G, who has contributed to this version as much or more than me, will agree to this, if you don't Richard, just say so...)
--Zappaz 18:59, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Gary, dunno why you say you're a "wolf." From what I've seen you're one of the more disspassionate chaps around here. I have no objection at all. Go for it. Richard G. 13:08, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Alrighty, then, in the face of such a welcome (for which I thank you), I'm happy to give it a shot. I've started with a portion of an outline, so you can see what you're in for. My available time may be somewhat spotty right now, so it's hard to say how fast it will go. You certainly shouldn't hold off editing to wait for me; however, be warned I have assembled a vision and an editorial bulldozer to get us there, so text will fly, including what you may add. As a hint, I anticipate that the final product will be quite unvarnished toward the guy (this may hurt), yet the net result will not be unsympathetic toward him from a western sensibility. I think there is a story to be told here, a fascinating one, in terms human rather than divine, one that—frankly—both factions have mostly missed. --Gary D 22:05, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)

Good start, Gary. I may be posting some raw text in some of the new sections (as bullets maybe), just some facts that you can weave into the story. I agree that there is a story to be told here. BTW, I do not think that PR needs "varnishing"... his story since he was 4 years old, including the controversy, provides quite a bit of fascination already..... Look forward to working on this. Maybe Richard can chip-in as well with some more facts and data. --Zappaz 04:26, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Lineage

Gary: There are many other accounts of these early beginings other than Mishler. It woud be appropriate to weave these as well. I will look for these and send you refs. For example:

  • Young Prem and not Satpal will often "open" the events in which his father spoke. Prem did this since he was three years old. The first written account of this took place when he was 4 years old.
  • His father will often send greetings and blessings to the whole family, but special "pranams" (postrations) for Prem
  • The day his father died, it was Prem and not Satpal that took the satge and told the weeping devotees not to cry and to remember that the love of Sri hans could not day and was still with them. In that scenario, the devotees recognized the spark of the teacher in Prem.

--64.81.88.140 15:01, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Below is Prem's only known auto-biographical words . These are from the first website at maharaji./org in 1999. You can access some of these pages athttp://web.archive.org/web/*/http://maharaji.org. I think that it is facinating and worth considering. --64.81.88.140 15:23, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Preface

"Know thyself" has echoed through the ages. This simple statement has been revised and updated, but has never lost its charm or intrigue.

We all, in our own ways, want to better ourselves, be it in our career, our family, our friends, our skills—whatever our chosen endeavor may be. So we should, and to this end many avenues are available to us.

However, one cannot forget one’s self. Knowledge of the self is important—to some, indeed, paramount. Knowledge of the self begins with the self. Your universe resides within you, waiting to be discovered. What does it take? It takes a sincere desire, an earnest thirst. Understanding is a wonderful surprise. That which didn't make sense all of a sudden does. My efforts have always been to help people understand and feel the feeling within. People through the years have tried to place me in a mold, and from the very early years I have not been able to oblige them. When I was very young, people were looking for the "old silver-haired Guru with flowing white robes." I was only eight. When people were flocking to India for their search, I was in the West. When people were looking for sophisticated discourses, I spoke of simple things. When people wanted nirvana, I said, "You need peace."

When people said, "Tell us of the scriptures," I said, "Look within you." When people asked, "What is your qualification?" I said, "Judge me by what I offer." To this day, some people see me the way they want to. After all, I guess it is rather inconvenient to see things as they really are. I have evolved, but my message stays the same. Externally, I have changed but within me, something stays the same.

Journey

Every time I sit down to write something, a reminder comes. Keep it simple. This is neither a biography nor a history session. I sincerely believe in moving forward.

Ever since I can remember, I have been surrounded by people who had a thirst and an inspiration for life. It was and is wonderful. After all, to know that every day can promise something new is a challenge of life itself.

It all started for me when I was quite young. Mornings were my favorite time of day. I couldn't wait for the new day to begin and to visit the dew covered grass. Every part of it was magical.

I lived in a lovely neighborhood of Dehra Dun with my Father, mother, stepmother, three elder brothers, and my half sister in the summers. The household included a staff of seven to eight people.

The air was clean and the skies were dauntingly dark blue. Magnolias, night blooming jasmine, and Indian roses perfumed the morning air, and I would be greeted by the bustling calls of Indian myna birds.

I loved to awaken the staff by reminding them to practice the techniques of Knowledge imparted by my Father. We were all very close. Everyone respected each other and we all loved my Father.

I know that for many kids a father is very beautiful. My Father was very special. He was a Master, His majesty magnificent. He worked hard to give all of us the best care possible, and indeed, we were all very well taken care of. To please Him was a delight. To this end, everyone did what they could.

When I was eight years old, my Father passed away. After Him, I accepted the challenge and the grace of continuing to disseminate Knowledge. This was, of course, unusual for I was the youngest in my family and not the eldest.

Attending school and traveling extensively to speak at public events was a mixed batch at best. I remember often being interrupted from doing my homework because some people had traveled a long way and they wanted to meet me. As events gained momentum in India, it became harder and harder to keep up with school, even though, to their credit, my friends and some of my teachers made it as tolerable as possible.

Not all were sympathetic or understanding of what I was venturing to do. A huge task lay ahead of me, and neither I nor anyone else had any idea as to its immensity. For me, it was simple. I received the techniques of Knowledge at a very young age when I was neither plagued by the problems of the world nor had any concept of salvation. But Knowledge worked!

To disseminate Knowledge to those who were seeking the inner experience of the self, who were thirsty for it—that was the objective and still is. One thing that has always been very clear to me is that you can't sell Knowledge. After all, this is a very personal experience, something that can only be justified or verified by each individual. Not everyone shared the same feeling. Quite a few people wanted to see me as a figurehead. I didn't want to be one and I am not one. A few others saw me as a leader, and I didn't want to be one and I am not one.

God gave me the ability to speak from my heart, and that is what I wanted to do—speak to those who wanted to hear me, impart Knowledge to those who sought it. "If you like what is given, practice it; if not, leave it." This statement, to me, is simple, yet profound and has been echoed since the time of my Father.

In 1971, during my summer vacation, I came to the West, arriving at London's Heathrow with barely £25 in my pocket. I had no concept of time zones and no idea what I was walking into.

My Father had envisioned that I would go abroad and spread this possibility. And there I was, 13 years old—enthusiastic, exhausted, fascinated—a young boy with an old message.

I think a lot of people couldn't handle my age. I remember when I was six and would speak, some people claimed it was a tape recorder. That was never the case, but it did make a bad impression on me that those who simply couldn't understand resorted to bizarre explanations. That was the start of the controversies.

I love this quote: "When you do something right, there will always be those who criticize you; when you do something wrong, there will be no one around to stop you." There I was with a very simple possibility. All the old ways of doing things were yet to be exported to the West. As a young boy, I needed help with disseminating Knowledge, but it was a very different kind of help I was about to encounter.

I wanted things simple, yet they weren't. The effort to simplify continues.

When I came to the West, the possibility of Knowledge existed in one country. Now it exists in 81 countries. Since there was and is no blueprint for accomplishing this, I find myself in the continuous process of simplification, rediscovery, and reinvention.

I love hard work and I love to work hard. Changes happened; evolution was afoot and still is. The changeable changes; the unchangeable stays. The challenge grows ever more challenging and beautiful. I look forward to it.

Thanks for these refs, 140, and keep 'em coming! I will definitely work them in. I have been frustrated that the current PR and EV websites don't seem to have much definite historical material to draw from. I also have plans for developing an initial, "pre-transition" section. BTW, I appreciate everyone's patience with what might look like an initial anti-PR take, but I think this will come home to roost in a balanced "payback" when we get to the section where the family departs and PR starts making changes. --Gary D 19:09, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Other early accounts

There are other early accounts. These are excerpts from a historical account by one Mahatma Gyanbaraganand in 1973.--64.81.88.140 19:52, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

... Maharaj Ji since his very childhood used to practice meditation. He was always in meditation and he was very reserved in his speech. He was not like an ordinary worldly child, he never wept and he was just very reserved in manner. On very special occasions, on a rare occasion, he would make speeches, and each one was always very meaningful, very significant and to the point.
Although Shri Bal Bhagwan Ji, Shri Bhole Nathe Ji and Shri Raja Ji are the elder brothers of Maharaj Ji, they used to pranam to him. Although in the Indian culture the younger brother salutes the elder, all the three elder brothers used to salute the youngest. In their childhood, the four brothers used to play very exceptional games. They were extremely playful, but their play was special. Shri Bal Bhagwan Ji, Bhole Ji, Shri Raja Ji ordered the mahatmas to bring bricks, and they collected many any bricks. With these bricks they used to make a stage for Maharaj Ji, a very high pedestal. Then they would make all the arrangements and in the end Maharaj Ji would come and sit on the stage. He would say, "Okay, now everybody sit, take your seats." And then Shri Bhole Ji was just very humble and with folded hands he always asked Maharaj Ji, "Maharaj Ji, what should I do, what should I do, what service should I do?" From his high pedestal Maharaj Ji used to give satsang and what he used to say was that, "This human body is only for meditation, so you people should do meditation." Then he himself used to demonstrate how to do meditation.
Notes:
  • Bal Bhagwan is now called Satpal, the eldest brother
  • pranam means "prostrations" and used in India as a show of respect
  • satsang means "company of truth" and refers of a speech made by a master or teacher

[edit] Current edits

Good work, Gary. I enjoyed reading the article even if it is not complete yet. ... And thanks tprf.org for the picture of young Prem Rawat, and .140 for the small corrections. I can see that the edit is progressing unencumbered and it is looking good. I look forward to see the treatment of the rest of the article. --Zappaz 06:52, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thank you, Zappaz. Another edit pass performed today, with moves of material out to other articles, as the biographical material itself just about fills the 32K allotment. Next in sight is a redo of the criticism reference section; I have just about abandoned my former "integrated article" position, because the damn thing is just too big. Will next be pulling in more fill-in material from all over other sources, making sure to balance the viewpoints, and then plan to promote this version as a candidate to take over wholesale the current online main article. --Gary D 11:04, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)

Sounds like a good plan. Only comment would be that the article is relying maybe too heavily on Mishler's account. So far I have not seen any objections to this, but worth considering if to add other sources. Regarding the criticism article, I have not seen any substantial additions by the ex-premies lately, but I propose giving them little more time to see if anyting else surfaces. I looked at the ancillary articles but do not see much that can be added at this stage. I thought doing an article on the elder brother Satpal, but I find very little about him and mainly from his own website. Richard has been absent for a while, hopefully just giving you the space to complete your editing. Hope he joines us again for the last stages. --Zappaz 20:35, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I would love to add other sources. Mishler remains central because he is about the only one specifically addressing what happened during these time periods; there is almost no specific information given on the organizations' websites and in the favorable newspaper reports that address the big "W questions" of who/what/when/where/why. Technical difficulties have prevented me from pulling all the old website versions off the Internet Wayback Machine, but there doesn't appear to be much specific stuff there anyway. It is frustrating. I don't get the sense the book "Who Is Guru Maharaj ji?" would plug the hole, but John Brauns has a copy, so maybe he can check it for stuff. If PR wrote an autobiography and talked about his history, his account would probably go first, but apparently that one short piece is all he ever wrote. I think .140 is currently attempting to hunt up some "pro" sources; if you have anything I would sure appreciate it. --Gary D 01:51, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)
Gary, Zappaz, Richard and other contributors, seems we are getting there! I am taking a back stance for now and awating for the "final" revision (if there is ever a final one) before I make my comments. All in all it is looking the best I have seen so far.--Senegal 21:19, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] sorry...been busy

First week of school is always ugly...

Very clean, guys, but it seems awfully biographical rather than substantive about what rawat propounds, the message of peace, etc.

Let me noodle that around and get back in a day or so? Richard G. 01:08, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Indeed it has become more biographical, with the material on the techniques moved out to Kriyas. Now we're bumping up against the 32KB prescribed limit. If there is a body of material focused on the message that is encyclopedic, I would propose we consider folding that into the Kriyas article, or it may be fodder for a new article, along the person's-life-versus-person's-doctrine demarcation lines of, say, Aleister Crowley versus Thelema, Madame Blavatsky versus Theosophy, Edgar Cayce versus Edgar Cayce on Karma etc. --Gary D 02:01, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Biography

I see the article so far as a valiant attempt by Gary (with Zappaz and Richard contributing) to write a biography of Prem Rawat. I will state my concerns below with the hope that you will address them:

Thank you, and welcome back, jossi! I'll put my responses in this font after each paragraph. This method forced me to rework your numbering. --Gary D 03:55, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC)

1. Succession is taking too much space IMO and too much based on a second hand account. The fact is that regardless of a succession or not, Prem Rawat's work since he was very young has been remarkable by all accounts. It is not of such importance to warrant so much space to the lineage discourse.

Concern over the second-hand account has been noted a few times, but we just don't have anything from the PR camp that addresses this period of history in detail. I did try to put in some PR and mahatma material about the pre-succession and succession periods, what little there was of it. As to inclusion of the succession itself, its details are independently encyclopedic, as the events surrounding any transfer of dynastic power, especially an unusual one in violation of Hindu primogeniture, would be of general interest. Considering we're bumping up against space limitations in this article, though, it may be worthwhile to move the bulk of this account out to the Shri Hans article, and just summarize it here.
Once you complete the criticism summary, you may evaluate the space situation. If you are bumping against 32 KB, a summary with a link to the Shri Hans article will do nicely.
Yeah, let's put that on the "probable to-do list."
One thing that is important and missing is the fact that Maharaji received Knwowledge from his father when he was four years old. This means that he became at that early age a student of his father, now his teacher as well.

2. What is the source for the report of eight million followers and 2,000 mahatmas? This seems strange...

These figures are from the 1973 New York Review of Books article, a few paragraphs down from the top.
I must say that these figures are a total exageration, the number of people that Maharaji has spoken to since he arrived to the West is 6.5 million (1 million + in 2003), so this figure of 8 m studdents in 1973 does not compute. Regarding the number of mahatmas, that is also an exageration. The number of Mahatmas never passed more that a couple of hundred at its peak. Either the journalist had a knack for exageration, or he interviewed a person with a grand imagination...
I'm not married to these numbers, especially as the NYRB reporter didn't attribute them. It would be nice to have some numbers generated by the organization during that time period, though (as opposed to modern numbers relating back to then); any suggestions for a source on that?
I am working on this to see if I there is any published figures for that time.

3. The account of the pie-throwing incident and the unfortunate comment allegedly made to a reported, don't have IMO any biographical value. Given the shortness of this article, to feature this incident in the section named "follower's devotion" paints a distorted view, and forces a POV of devotion as extremism.

Here again, the pie throwing incident and consequent assault are independently encyclopedic; they are, for example, some of the few things I as a member of the general public heard about PR at that time. Hence, they would deserve to be in the article even standing alone, but I liked being able to tie them into the point about premie devotion, as a segue into the discussion of followers' divinity beliefs. While "extreme" would be POV, the consensus of all the contemporary journalism was that the premies' devotion was remarkably strong, I don't think that's in dispute, and it needs to be captured here. To the extent that devotion was driven by an erroneous personal divinity belief on the Westerners' part, I think the article does pretty well at airing the viewpoint that this was not necessarily PR's personal fault. Now, the one premie's comment is a bit different. Using that strong an example was a quick way to make a point about the level of devotion evident at the time. It is not necessarily the only example we could use, but using other, less stark examples would take more words to set up an explanatory context, while this one delivers the point even standing alone and in just a few words. I did try to soften it with the hyperbole aside.
I still think that it is an unfortunate choice to portray the premies devotion. Devotion is love, and a love that is most sweet. I know that the pie incident is a "juicy" story, but this is not a newspaper article. I do not have a problem if you want to keep it, but in the current placement it throws the NPOV so carefuly crafted. I do not negate that there was a strong devotional aspect at that time, just that the choice of example is a poor one.
I sometimes think of an encyclopedia as a distillation repository of all the persistantly significant tidbits from newspapers. The pie incident and assault, as notorious public incidents, really do have to stay. I'm happy to use a different premie quote(s), though it may cost us a few more words.

4. Seventy percent of the article is mostly dedicated to the 60's, 70's and some of the 80's. There are just four paragraphs about "the movement today" that skim over the most important years of Prem Rawat's work thus far. If this is a true biographical account, as it seems to be portrayed as, it should certainly include the last 20 years as well. Maybe the current article can be shrunk to allow for the inclusion of the last 20 years of Prem Rawat's life-work.

If there are biographical happenings over the last twenty years, they definitely should be included here. I presume he was fairly constantly traveling, lecturing, and teaching the techniques over this period, but if there are significant events that mark milestones in the life of a man or an organization, their place is here. Again, there is precious little history coming from the PR side; it seems like the critics have a monopoly on telling the specific stories. I have .140 and Zappaz digging for "pro" history material; maybe you can join that effort.
OK, I will see what I can put together about the last 20 years. What is missing in the article IMO are the most important years of Maharaji's work. Maybe a short summary of that period with a link to the "Teachings of Prem Rawat" page will cover it.
Look forward to whatever you can dig up.

5. There is very little about the teachings, and the Techniques of Knowledge article covers just one aspect. Hopefully someone will undertake the writing of an article about The teachings of Prem Rawat.

As I have suggested over on the Criticism talk page earlier today, I think an article on PR's doctrines would be a good thing.
Good. We we shall see if there any volunteers to undertake that article. I will certainly assist, but I am not a writer... :) --≈ jossi ≈ 04:29, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC)
Yeah, that really is an article I cannot write; happy to copyedit it, tho' ;-)

≈ jossi ≈ 15:22, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal to take this version online as the main Prem Rawat article

Okay, I think I have this one close enough to completion that this version can now be taken online as the main Prem Rawat article, and I propose to do so in one to two days. The items currently in discussion between jossi and me can be dealt with either before or after that. As I mentioned recently on the Criticism talk page, I humbly (yeah, right) believe this version blows the doors off the other versions. Also as mentioned on the Criticism talk page, due to page size limits I propose that this page handle neutral biography, the Criciticsm article handle criticism in-depth, and another to-be-created article handle PR's doctrines in-depth, with references given in this main article to both the Criticism article and Doctrines article.--Gary D 22:45, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC)

This sentence The organization continued to grow, claiming as of 1973 two thousand mahatmas who were authorized to teach the Knowledge techniques, forty thousand followers in the U.S., and eight million around the world. is incorrect. There were never so many mahatmas and the number of premies could not have been eight million in '73. I do not tink that there are any published stats of that period. I would suggest that it is removed from the article. Thanks. --64.81.88.140 23:01, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Gary. I propose an alternative opening paragraph as follows:
Current
Prem Rawat (born December 10, 1957 in Dehra Dun near Haridwar, India) is a sometimes controversial inspirational speaker who brought to the West and promotes in both the West and India four meditative techniques or kriyas that he collectively calls the "techniques of Knowledge" and which he claims bring inner peace. He was for a time known in the West and is still known in India as Guru Maharaj ji, and is now known to his Western students as Maharaji.
Proposed
Prem Rawat (born December 10, 1957 in Dehra Dun near Haridwar, India) is a sometimes controversial inspirational speaker who promotes inner peace, that he claims can be achieved via four meditative techniques or kriyas that he teaches worldwide and that he collectively calls "Knowledge". He was for a time known in the West and is still known in India as Guru Maharaj ji, and is now known to his Western students as Maharaji.
--≈ jossi ≈ 00:38, Sep 24, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Volunteer for Teachings Section

My girlfriend Lexy is a premie and she volunteered to do it. It'll be a week or so before she gets clear from her day job and registeres and gets up to speed on Wiki-land (!) but looks like we have a winner. Richard G. 19:03, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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