Talk:Predestination paradox

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[edit] about the heart attack paradox

If a man discover that he will die (in the future!!!) from heart attack and then (in the present!!) travel to the past and say to himself to get fit, and then he overexerts himself, killing herself of a heart attack, how he will travel to the past now?? (since he is doing exercises, because he think the if he do the exercises he will not die from heart attack) And if he not traveled in time, how did he suffered a heart attack?? [since he discovered that he will suffer a heart attack on the future (after the traveling back in time)] 201.58.117.54

[edit] It's not a paradox!

It may appear as such, but the "Predestination paradox" is not , in physics, really a paradox at all. Philosophically, it contradicts the idea of free will, but even this may be apparent, in as much as it is simply a case of free will not allowing you to break the laws of the universe (for example, if I step off a cliff, I'd rather not fall, but no matter how much I will myself to stay in the air, the basic laws of physics state that I have to fall) 128.232.250.254 14:56, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

The paradox comes from the fact that in a causal loop, the events are both causes and effects of each other. Causality — that a cause precedes an effect — is thus seemingly violated. It might be useful to remember that paradoxes which have solutions can still be called paradoxes (Zeno's paradox, for example). --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 15:05, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
The 'paradox' comes from the question of 'how did this come to be in the first place'. In any example, if you go straight to the origin of the event you realize there is always going to be an inconsistency. For example, the heart attack instance is nonsense because the man clearly had a heart attack because he was overweight - if he went back and made himself into a fitness fanatic, even if he still had the heart attack, it would have been purely by conincidence and the whole past would have been changed. This clearly doesn't create a closed loop, so it is considered a paradox.
Regarding free will, the very idea that you would need to travel back in time is clearly an indication that the subject in question doesn't believe in non-deterministic free will - unless you think the universe is entirely causal, what reason would you have to believe time would repeat itself exactly, given identical starting states? Richard001
I have to agree here. The issue behind traveling back in time is that you would change something that needed to happen. But if you change the thing that needed to happen, then it didn't really need to happen. Classic paradox, and something that the universe (if it is at all sane) would realize and nullify by making NO event totally needed to happen, not even the beginning of the universe itself. I've always thought that there is a possibility that time is not immutable, but is changed on a daily basis by choices that people make. I also think that some people, simply live outside of the restrictions of time (able to travel back and forth at will), and have the ability to change the entire universe with one of their choices. There is the possibility of a Paradox in the creation of the universe itself, where the universe is created by the ending of itself, with few events changed.Christopher1000 06:34, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Time-machine schematics paradox

I've heard the following paradox somewhere, but I don't know the name of it or who invented it.

A man designs a time machine from some schematics that were given to him. After testing the machine, the man travels back in time to give the schematics to himself on his 30th birthday. The man appears in front of his self and explains to him that he shouldn't worry about designing the time machine, as he has done it in the future and will give the schematics to his own self. The man's self receives the schematics and start building the time machine. Time passes until he finally completes it, test it, and remembers that he has to travel back in time on his 30th birthday to give the schematics to himself. He does and a time loop is created. The paradox is: who, where and when did the schematics were created?

So, in which category should this paradox be included?

--Maio 07:06, Jan 19, 2004 (UTC)

It's a staple of science fiction as well - see By His Bootstraps by Robert A. Heinlein for an example. Other examples include a time traveller going back in time and giving William Shakespeare a set of his complete works. It's a variation on the predestination paradox, but more properly should be termed an ontological paradox, since it deals with the origins of things. I've added it to the main entry with that clarification. --khaosworks 07:38, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
There's another story by Asimov, completely around this theme. It involves going through a time loop to ensure time travel remains in action, and ends by a man who chooses to not follow the loop, and at that very moment the time-travelling structure dissapears. Someone who has an idea about what novel it is?
Found it: The End of Eternity
This problem in mentioned in 8-Bit Theatre [1], when the characters find themselves in an alternate reality where time is slowed down, so that any action commited in the universe creates a series physical afterimages that follow directly before the last version. Thus, the set of characters the story is focused on can see not only what they have just done above them, but what they are about to do below them. When one of the characters discovers a way to get out, another asks, "Where did you come up with such a great idea?" "I saw the Future You doing it down there," says the first character. "I'm doing it in the future because you told me about it in the past..." says the second. "But only because you saw me doing it in the future. Where did the plan come from? Information cannot erupt into being from nothingness. It's a paradox!" The next future version of the second character then replies, "I try not to think about it."
Sorry if this seems like a waste of space, but I just thought I'd add on... --VolatileChemical 01:36, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
In the movie Somewhere in Time, an elderly Elise McKenna gives Richard Collier a pocketwatch in 1972. Later, Collier travels back in time to 1912, and meets a young Elise McKenna. He gives her the pocketwatch that she will later give back to him. There is no explanation as how the watch came to be.
Laserion 01:46, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
This also suffers from the same problem as the eyeglasses in Star Trek IV. I'm adding it as a comparison to that. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 02:01, 23 September 2005 (UTC)


This isn't time machine related but time traveling.

In an episode of Andromeda, the ship is somehow sent back into time where they encounter an enemy fleet. I haven't watched the show for ages so I forget the name of the race. But they find thousands of enemy ships, but historical records indicate there were only a few dozen ships that were destroyed by a human fleet. The captain decides to interfere and uses some bomb which devastates nearly the entire enemy fleet. The guy with the spikes in his hand speaks to the captain in a seperate room. He tells him about a certain folklore story. There were thousands of ships and victory was guarenteed. But then an angel of death appeared and destroyed most of the fleet. He says something similar to this effect "I have met that angel of death".

[edit] Voyager reference

Unless I'm very much mistaken the 30 years Braxton referenced was about the "Future's End" double episode and had already happened before the events of the episode "Relativity". As such I removed the last sentence of that paragraph. -- 203.79.112.66 13:18, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Wrath of Khan scenario

I wonder if the Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan scenario ("...the antique eyeglasses Captain Kirk receives from Doctor McCoy in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, which Kirk leaves in the 20th Century in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home so it can be eventually bought by McCoy") might be complicated by the fact that the glasses are intact when McCoy gives them to Kirk in the 23rd century, but one of the lenses is cracked when Kirk later pawns them in the 20th century. Assuming they're the same glasses, then they must be repaired sometime before McCoy buys them for Kirk, and with each repetition of this loop they age by another 300 years. Most of the other examples given involve the origins of information or genetic code (i.e. people), both of which can be reproduced easily. --Arteitle 05:45, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)

To be frank, there is no reason to believe that the glasses will be the ones that McCoy buys in future aside from Kirk's remark. It's one of those things that should not be examined too closely lest it falls apart. -khaosworks 07:59, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Back to the Future

I fail to see how Back to the Future falls in this category, since the 1985 Marty returns to is definately not the 1985 he left. -- ckape (talk) 07:22, 2005 Jan 19 (UTC)

I agree that it's not a "pure" presdestination paradox, insofar as Marty's time trip is not predestined to happen, but that he creates a grandfather paradox which he then has to correct by substituting a predestination paradox for it, thereby altering his own history, but the end result is almost the same. I've rewritten the paragraph slightly to account for this. -khaosworks 15:23, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I agree, Back to the Future implies the opposite with it's plot. This paradox require the Time Traveler to be the original one to inspire the paradox. but in the beginning of the movie they are in an original time line in which Marty NEVER traveled back to 1955 (as seen by the unbroken ledge), and Goldie Wilson did run without Marty's suggestion, and Johnny B Good was written without Marty's help. there is no relation with this paradox and BTTF. --68.109.92.47 23:46, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Predestination Paradox vs. Self-fulfilling Prophecy

In some respects, predestination paradox and self-fulfilling prophecy can just be a case of to-MAY-to and to-MAH-to. From the perspective of a paradox, receiving information about an event from the future that causes a series of events that culminate in the said event if and only if the information was sent back in time in the first place is a predestination paradox. DonQuixote 17:51, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

By this definition, I don't think the scenorio from Revenge of the Sith counts as a predestination paradox. I recall Yoda said in The Empire Strikes Back that visions of the future seen through the Force are possible futures, rather than definite futures.
Possible or otherwise, the fact is that information is sent from the future that ultimately creates that future. I don't see a problem with this; it's the classic Oedipus tragedy. --khaosworks July 3, 2005 02:31 (UTC)
Okay, so if you were one who believed in divination (such as prophecy, as in the fictional example above), and one were to receive a tarot reading that caused one to take a course of action that lead to the event described in the tarot reading coming to pass, then wouldn't this also have to be a predestination paradox? You might state that it wouldn't be, because divination doesn't actually work in the real world, but then that leads to some pretty arbitrary line-drawing if one considers other implications would have to logically follow such a decision (the decision not to include self-fulfilling tarot readings). Where do we draw the line? If we decide to draw a line, is there any NPOVly non-arbitrary place to put it? --Corvun 01:25, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure I follow your argument. The line here is that all our examples are fictional. Divination may or may not be real, as you say. Could you provide an actual example of such a reading that isn't original research? --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 01:36, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
No, I wouldn't be able to provide and example of any tarot reading that isn't original research. Those things are rather personal and tend to have only anecdotal evidence associated with them. That there is anecdotal evidence to suggest that tarot readings do occasionally self-fulfil isn't controversial (though whether the anecdotal evidence is correct certainly would be) or obscure, I wouldn't know where to begin looking for an example from a non-anecdotal source. My question was, where do we draw the line between what is actually a predestination paradox and what is not? I used tarot for an example because they too deal with "possible futures", however, depending upon one's perspective, there is only one "possible future", the one that actually happens, with all other "possible futures" being nothing more than hypothetical, extrapolated for the purposes of warning; even if one believes in tarot and receives a self-fulfilling reading, how does one know that a predestination paradox has occured, rather than just a series of events that happened to bring about a previously hypothesized future? Following this question, how would we apply said determination to fiction, and where would that line then need to be drawn? Forgive me, but when I find myself fascinated by a subject I try to dissect it from every weird angle I can think of. --Corvun 02:00, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
No need to apologize, really. :) The reason for my asking for clarification is because I thought the line was clear. In my view, the definition is stated in the various examples herein. Generally, a causal loop is formed when information (in the form of mere information, or a person possessing that information) acts on the past to produce the "future" that the information comes from. This is what is a predestination paradox, and by implication, an ontological one as well.
If a line is to be drawn, I suppose you could draw a line between the supernatural aspect of a self-fulfilling prophecy, or, alternatively say that were it is mere information, then it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, but where there is an actual traveller from the future acting to produce his future, inadvertently or otherwise, then it becomes a predestination paradox. It's not a distinction I am entirely happy with, but I can see the merit in that. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 02:18, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Responding to ...if... one were to receive a tarot reading that caused one to take a course of action that lead to the event described in the tarot reading coming to pass, then wouldn't this also have to be a predestination paradox? This could only count as one if the events actually caused the original tarot prediction to be made. If tarot cards are not in fact affected by future events, it would be only a self-fulfilling prophecy. Think of it this way... a self-fulfilling prophecy works one way only, forwards; it is a prediction that causes a chain of events which make it come true. Predestination paradoxes are continuous cycles, playing out forwards and then changing the past to start themselves over again. I think this could be done through any means, whether information or action. -AndromedaRoach 04:07, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

The following isn't really a paradox since the future event doesn't cause itself. It's just something that happens of its own accord.

"In Douglas Adams' Life, The Universe and Everything, Arthur Dent gets told by Agrajag that there will be an attempt on his life at a place named "Stavromula Beta". Arthur, who has never even heard of the place (and assumes it's a planet), realises that he must go there sometime in his future and therefore is free from worrying about his possible death before he arrives there. He therefore considers himself to be free from death unless he travels to the planet of Stavromula Beta. At the end of Mostly Harmless, Arthur survives an attempt on his life in an Earth dance club called "Beta" owned by "Stavro Mueller". The predestined event having occurred, there is nothing to stop the Vogons from making Earth (and all possible Earths) cease to exist, taking Arthur with it."

DonQuixote 05:40, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Terminator

This hardly qualifies as a predestination paradox, because it is constantly made clear that the past can be changed, therefore the movies are set in a mutable, not fixed timeline. Therefore, the timeline in which Skynet is built by Cyberdyne using parts of the first Terminator follows a timeline in which Skynet is built by some other company, later, and Judgment Day therefore occurs later than 1997. This company presumably builds Skynet in the timeline shown in T3, when Cyberdyne is destroyed.

The assumption that the movies take place in altered timelines, and the original timeline is never shown, not only follows the plot more accurately (allowing the past to change), but also resolves most, if not all, predestination paradoxes. For example, John Connor was Kyle Reese's son in the T1 timeline and all the subsequent timelines, but he was born from a different father in the original timeline where Reese had yet to be sent into the past.

The message is said to be memorized, so John must forcefully learn it and make sure it reaches the future unchanged. I believe this is done to make sure the message is delivered the same way as it was in the original timeline. To clarify: in the original timeline, John creates the message (here we have its necessary original source) and passes it to Reese, who alters the past by his very presence (let alone replacing John's original father with himself), and if John does not memorize the message the way it was, the message he creates himself may be different from the one he created in the original timeline, which would result in a different Reese arriving into the past (as long as Reese remembers a different message), a different past, a different future etc. - an incredibly dangerous loop that will most probably terminate with a variation of the grandfather paradox. However, as John remembers the original message, he may pass it to Reese unchanged.

That's it. Ideas shamelessly taken from http://mjyoung.net . I post it here because I can imagine no way to weave it into the article - explanation of the basic principles would be worthy of a separate article itself, which would be immediately deleted as original research. - Sikon 09:51, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

________

I don't think John Conner ever had a father who wasn't Kyle. In the original timeline, I'd suspect that there was *no* John Conner and that the humans were on the verge of defeat (as opposed to having just won) when they sent Kyle back through time. Though this time, not to protect Sarah Conner, but to warn humanity of the coming storm. Obviously, they all think he's crazy, but for some reason he meets and befriends Sarah, who believes him, which eventually leads to John.

Which in turn leads to there being an exceptionally skilled general with foreknowledge of the rise of the machines. After all, we are lead to believe that the only reason John Conner becomes the "great military leader" is because his mother is preparing him for it. In a universe in which John's father is not Kyle, in which there was no time traveller, there is no reason for this preparation.

That said, before the arrival of the sequels (and until the ending of T2), Terminator 1 was a *perfect* example of the predestination paradox.

Personally I prefered it that way. (Ulicus 04:08, 9 January 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Night Watch

I don't think Night Watch is a predestination paradox. Lu-Tze clearly states that the Vimes who goes back in time was trained by the real John Keel. Things happen much as he remembered them (although not exactly), but that's because he's trying not to change things too much. In other words, it's a "branching universe" type of time travel, but the protaganist is being careful that a future similar to the one he left will result.Daibhid C 21:16, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

That's correct. The real John Keel, we are told, was killed by the other time traveller. Vimes simply follows through with what Keel had done. 19 April 2006

[edit] Huh. DNA.

If you went back and impregnated your great-great-grandmother, your DNA in the present would slowly become more like yourself than yourself. This would be akin to Russell's Paradox. How can your DNA be more like itself than itself.? This would casue the universe to explode, even if you killed you real great great grandfather. Wait, uh, where is the paradox in that? Anyways, tell me what you think. --HomfrogHomfrogTell me a story!ContribulationsHomfrog 20:59, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmmmm.....well, I think it would cause a paradox because if you went back in time and impregnated your great-great-grandmother, then your great grandparent would be more and more like you and due to the DNA of your original ancestors having part of the same DNA as your great-great-grandmother, they would be more like you also, and then eventually your parent, that parent's parent (your grandparent) and grandparent's parent would all look more similar to you, but because of the way it all works, it might be possible for all your parents, grandparents and great-grandparents to all have remarkably similar DNA to you. I think there's an extremely small chance for any gene to mutate, but after an infinity of iterations of working this all out, you might be really mutated for the worse and then unable to reproduce (because of death or maybe just sterility) and therefore not able to initiate the predestination paradox in the first place, making it into a grandfather paradox or something. Or maybe instead of mutation, your ancestors looking different might cause them to not get together in the first place, thus making you not ever being born. Not sure, probably a million different ways to cause a paradox. I don't think in fact it would make you look more like yourself, in fact, due to you having some of your great-great-grandmother's DNA, you would probably become more and more like your great-great grandmother (but not too similar, because you're great-great-grandmother isn't directly related by DNA to all your relatives).
The lesson here, Don't go back in time and impregnate your great-great-grandmother (or anyone else that you're related to for that matter). Seeya later, 59.167.131.98 12:20, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
You raise an interesting point but in a universe that follows the predestination paradox in the purest sense, I believe the idea is that the individual's DNA would never change from "iteration to iteration" (ie. it's one complete loop, rather than the loop going through multiple "iterations" with details differing between iterations). That of course is still peculiar: since we only inherit half of each of your parents' DNA, this means roughly that only 1/8 (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) of the DNA is preserved in the loop; the non-preserved parts must then be supplied by the "other parent" in each generation. Basically this would be as startling as a non-time-loop scenario where the great-grandmother and you, by sheer improbable luck, share the exact same DNA. 24.19.184.243 04:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
There is a way that a person could be his own grandfather, without having the DNA that is given to him become more and more pure each time. Your DNA comes 1/2 from your mother and father. You go back in time and impregnate your grandmother (whose DNA is totally different from yours), and your father's DNA is born. Your father then marries your mother (whose DNA is totally different from his), and your DNA is totally different from his. Therefore, when you go to the past and impregnate your grandmother, you do not create the 'pure' strain.Christopher1000 06:42, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
To expand on this, there IS a temporal paradox where something could be seriously messed up: you find out that every male through the past of your family was you yourself, i.e. you marry your great-grandmother, then your grandmother, then your mother, going further back in time to the beginning of time. Though even then, the DNA would change so much over time through the combination of chance and natural genetic abnormalities from illness and other factors, that it might not become and issue.Christopher1000 06:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Concerning the DNA matter, you wouldn't look 'more' like yourself (that is by definition impossible - imagine a number that is closer to 1 than 1 itself!). Instead you would, as mentioned above, be replacing your great-grandfather's DNA with that of a mixture of your 8 great grandparents. You therefore would become more like your other 7 grandparents, and less like your 'original' grandfather. Of course, if you had an 'original' grandfather in the first place, it wouldn't really be a pre-destination paradox. There is of course the matter of completely changing the past - it would be perfectly possible that your great grandmother's new child might die at a young age, or be infertile. Even if it did have children itself, what are the odds of its parter being the same person as in the original timeline?
Hopefully that clears up the DNA problem Richard001 06:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Timeline based

Could it possible that if a person were to go back in time, and changes the furute, a parreal timeline would occur in diffrent realms?

[edit] Black Sabbath's "Iron Man"

As is being discussed on the Iron Man page, the song has nothing to do with witnessing a future apocalypse.

[edit] Too many fiction references

This article seems to be turning into a library of pop-culture references. The section dedicated to the original concept is now only a tiny portion of this article. I feel there should be more about the subject itself (which still seems utterly illogical to me) and a lot less references - perhaps the references could be moved to a new article about time travel references in fiction (or something similar) and just a small list of the most notable, predestination paradox specific references included. Opinions? Richard001 08:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I've seen this happen to lots of other articles on subjects like this, and usually what happens is that the enormous list gets split out into a "List of"-style article as you suggest. That way every editor with a personal favourite example still has a place to put it while allowing the main page to be kept clean with without major fuss or constant supervision. For example, see Dyson sphere and Dyson spheres in fiction. For this particular page, how about predestination paradoxes in fiction? (I like to avoid a literal "List of" title if I can help it, especially in a case like this where each entry has a few sentences to a paragraph of descriptive text to go along with it) Bryan 08:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Delete this entry concerning the Doctor Who episode 'Parting of the ways', which does not include a paradox, as the character(in a paranormal state) simply puts little reminders through time about her future,- as a reminder to go back and help, not as a causal agent of anykind. If this is a paradox then all Doctor Who episodes are a paradox as why does the doctor not just go to his adventures prior to his "medling",- they usually state "first law of time" or "nature of the universe" as to him not doing this. Book M 11:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC)Book_M

Yes, but the first law of time is an artifical construct created to prevent Time Lords (who live outside of the normal boundaries of time) from changing their own pasts. Even so, there is one Time Lord who is KNOWN to have done this: The Great Rashelon (misspelled perhaps). He is known to have gone back in time and changed his past to make it so he wouldn't become immortal, but he messed up things, so he stopped himself from keeping himself from becoming immortal.Christopher1000 06:49, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
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