Talk:Prague groschen

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
This article is part of the WikiProject Numismatics, which is an attempt to facilitate the categorization and creation of accurate and formal Numismatism-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate please visit the project page, where you can join and see a list of open tasks to help with.
Stub This article has been rated as stub-Class on the quality scale.
Mid This article has been rated as mid-importance on the importance scale.

Contents

[edit] On the title

Prague grosh or Prager Groschen, what is the common English name for the coin from Prague? Or the one issued in Cracow? Or in general, Grosh, groat, or Groschen? Let's ask Google, but mainly let's search the American Numismatic Society's curatorial database of coins:

  • Record contains: grosh No records in the ANS database match your search
  • Record contains: grosssi Search returned 5 records
  • Record contains: grossus Search returned 13 records
  • Record contains: grosch Search returned 15 records (added later, not singular of Groschen)
  • Record contains: grossi Search returned 44 records
  • Record contains: grosz Search returned 81 records
  • Record contains: groat Search returned 330 records
  • Record contains: groschen Search returned 2908 records


  • Record contains: prag Search returned 7 records
  • Record contains: pragenses Search returned 29 records
  • Record contains: prager Search returned 30 records.
  • Record contains: prague Search returned 485 records
  • Record contains: prague Record contains: grosch No records in the ANS database match your search (added later)
  • Record contains: prague Record contains: groschen Search returned 15 records
  • Record contains: grossi Record contains: pragenses Search returned 24 records
  • Record contains: prager Record contains: groschen Search returned 29 records


  • Record contains: kraków No records in the ANS database match your search.
  • Record contains: krakow Search returned 9 records.
  • Record contains: cracow Search returned 12 records
  • Record contains: krakau Search returned 61 records
  • Record contains: krakau Record contains: groschen Search returned 61 records

Sorry, but grosh is obviously a "original research" translation from slavic grosz, on the internet only due to the Wikipedia articles created by a few authors from, or due to ebay offers.


I'll change all articles. -- Matthead discuß!     O       10:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

You're mixing Polish singular "grosz" with German plural "Groschen". If you want to compare it should be "grosz" against "Grosch" and Google gets you 2 million vs 1 million. What is English for grosz/Grosch ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lysy (talk • contribs) 12:54, 8 January 2007 (UTC).
Lysy, there are links given above that clearly show that Groschen is used for the actual coins, by American Numismatic Society and others, in English. Let's once again (Talk:Mikołaj of Ryńsk) assume good faith and apply Hanlon's razor for this unspecified Google search, comparing the Polish POV with a hypothetical "Grosch" that is neither a German nor an English name for a coin.-- Matthead discuß!     O       22:07, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Agree with Lysy. And remember WP:UE: grosh is better then grosch(en) or grosz. And Krakau groschen seems to be unused even on German websites - complete OR.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  15:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Piotrus, see above, there is no "grosh" in English nor Grosch in German that would apply to the coin, these words are only visible from your own Polish POV that has introduced it to Wikipedia, as the article history proves. That kind of "translation" may have been okay for a stub to start with, but now you better accept the facts, no original research WP:NOR. Besides, in German, its Krakauer Groschen, but as shown above, American Numismatic Society calls it Krakau Groschen. -- Matthead discuß!     O       22:07, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Only one German site used Krakau Groschen; it is you who is trying to force an OR Germanized name in English Wikipedia; please stop.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  15:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

On Grosch/en
Incorrect assumption (singular Grosch, plural Groschen)

Groschen is singular as well as plural

  • 1 Groschen or 10 Groschen-
  • Grosch is a made up thing.

The correct name of the coin is Prager Groschen

  • 1 Prager Groschen or 10 Prager Groschen

Labbas 8 January 2007

Per Wikipedia:WikiProject_Numismatics/Style#Article_titles: Use the local name for the denomination even if there is an English translation. What is the local name of this coin?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  05:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The usual simple tests

Google Print test:

Google Scholar test:

Amazon.com test:

Best regards, Evv 05:21, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Books in English

  • Trade and Urban Development in Poland: An Economic Geography of Cracow, from its Origins to 1795, by Francis W. Carter, Cambridge University Press, 1994, ISBN 0-521-412390, p.38, 67 & 75:
    One of these currencies was the 'Prague Grossus' which the Polish king,...
    ...enjoyed by the Prague groschen (grossus Pragensis), unfortunately...
    based on the Prague groschen (grossus Pragensis), provided a stable coinage...
  • The Price of Freedom: a history of East Central Europe from the Middle Ages to the present, by Piotr Stefan Wandycz, Second edition, Routledge, 2001, ISBN 0-415-25491-4, p.34:
    ...the two countries - where the Prague silver grossus and the Hungarian golden florin...

Best regards, Evv 05:21, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prague groschen

Thanks Evv. "Prague groschen" it is, then. --Lysytalk 09:07, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, this seems like the acceptable compromise (English locality name, local coin name, per our policies).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  19:26, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Thats actually a thinly disguised vote for Krakow grozs. As "our policies" (pluralis majestatis?) are concerned, where were WP:V and WP:NOR when you created the articles, or in the year that passed since? -- Matthead discuß!     O       12:53, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
My pleasure, and yes, it would comply with WP:V & WP:NC :-)
If Matthead and Labbas agree on Prague groschen, I guess that we could do the move ourselves. If they don't (or if anyone wishes to do so), I propose to file a proper three-way move request at WP:RM:
This is not the actual survey, but only a discussion on what target the move request should use. Do not vote yet :-)
Prague grosh -> Prague groschen or Prager Groschen.
This is not the actual survey, but only a discussion on what target the move request should use. Do not vote yet :-)
I almost always prefer a proper move request :-) just in case other uninvolved editors (especially German ones) may be interested in have their say. But I leave the decission to you, that have much more experience here than I do. - Best regards, Evv 00:58, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Go ahead if you with, or maybe Matthead and Labbas are faster with their support for consensus :-) --Lysytalk 02:04, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

First, I want to point out that we talk here Talk:Prague grosh while the article is at Prager Groschen, as Talk:Prager Groschen was write-protect due to an edit by Lysy. I filed a request to fix this at Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2007 January 12#Talk:Prager Groschen → Talk:Prague_grosh. -- Matthead discuß!     O       12:41, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

This will actually help with the timeline. Immediatly after a decision is made regarding where to unify article and talk page, I will file a proper move request to Prague groschen at WP:RM. - Best regards, Evv 12:53, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Second, I want to point out that a similar survey is going on a Talk:Kraków grosh. I want to have consistent results, e.g. Prague groschen and Cracow groschen (actually Prager Groschen and Krakauer Groschen/Krakau Groschen would be very well justified either, but ... ). I'm not going to accept that the Cracow coin, which was inspired by the earlier Prague coin, gets an "English" name that combines two slavic words, backed up with only one source, and the additional need to disamb between a currency that was actually named so only 400 years later - unlike the 14th century coin, which was named in Latin and became known in Western Europe and in English by the name German merchants used, like its Prager sibling, and many others. I'm sorry that Germany is not only located between the British Isles and Prague/Cracow, but these cities were as Prag and Krakau also part of the German-speaking Empires for quite some time. See the ANS database, it shows how coins were actually known over the centuries. Authors of modern books apparently often apply recent names for simplicity, with a disclaimer that explains the reasons which get overlooked in Google searches (I included the one of Francis W. Carter at Talk:Kraków grosh, stating also Cracow not Krakow).

I'm sure some editors of English Wikipedia are trying hard to correct what they perceive as problems - I've been told here for example that Germany did not exist prior to 1871. Or that Grosch is the German singular of Groschen. Or that grosh is the proper English term for groschen (any source yet, after one year? No! still listed as options in both surveys? Yes!). As the German and in case of Cracow, even English names are concerned, these get painted over as present local terms are falsely applied to every period of history for politial correctness, consistency (a.k.a laziness), and due to "home team advantage".

At the end, Wikipedia will join Britannica in falsely claiming that the Kraków grozs was called so since the 14th century! BTW, what currency was Judas paid in? Money from Rome, 30 Euro coins, as shown by 26500 hits for Judas got 30 Euro coins. Would someone please edit the Bible article? Wikipedians know better, they create The Truth which is then quickly spread by Google as the Word of the Lord. -- Matthead discuß!     O       12:41, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Whether it's adequate or not, in English-language publications Prague groschen appears to constitute common English usage regarding this coin. On those grounds, I will file a proper move request to Prague groschen after this article and its talk page are unified.
Of course, I may be wrong in my interpretation of Wikipedia's naming conventions (which wouldn't be surprising, since I am wrong about many many things much more often than I like to admit :-) and thus I'm always open to be persuaded by other arguments. Anyway, during that move request the input of other so far uninvolved editors will help us to decide the issue. - Best regards, Evv 13:18, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prager Groschen

A note on Prager Groschen versus Prague... Prager Groschen was a German coin, because Prag was for many centuries a part of the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation. If changed to Prague Groschen, it specifically needs to be pointed out, that it was a Prager Groschen, because no such thing as Prague Groschen existed. In Latin it was Praga, but when did the Prague spelling come into existense?

With Krakau, Krakow, Cracow, Groschen, it is a bit different, because Cracow was many centuries in Poland, even though it was also a Hanseatic city for some time with at least half of the burghers and craftsmen Germans and 300 years later Austrian. Labbas 12 January 2007

Yes, and similarly "it specifically needs to be pointed out, that it was a koruna česká, because no such thing as Czech koruna existed", right ? This however does not mean that we would be renaming Czech koruna to koruna česká. --Lysytalk 20:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Labbas, English-language publications refer to this coin as Prague groschen, and in accordance to Wikipedia naming conventions (especially WP:UE) that usage is the one this article should reflect.
That the coin is known in German as Prager Groschen is a clear fact that should be mentioned in the article's body, just as Lysy explained above, but is irrelevant for the specific purposes of naming the article. - Best regards, Evv 20:24, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Evv, Lysy, Matthead,

Google shows about 39.000 for Prager Groschen

about 12.000 for Prague Groschen

The Prager Groschen were coined in Kuttenberg, not in Prag, now Prague.

Their name was never Prague Groschen. If some English language sources call them Prague, instead of Prag, that is only a caving in, or a P.C., or just an easy out.

I suppose redirects showing both Prague and Prager could work, where people who either search Prager Gr or Prague Gr will come to the same site.

Top line:

  • Prager Groschen (in English often referred to as Prague groschen, Czech ... etc) were Groschen coins minted in Kuttenberg...

Matthead, Lysy, Evv, how about this? Labbas 12 January 2007

Same answer as before :-) Best regards, Evv 19:23, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Labbas, it could be a helpful extension to the intro of the article, be bold and edit it in. Or save the effort, as I expect that as soon as the Cracow version of the medieval silver coins has been pushed to the desired "English name", a move request will be made to move this article to a name of a similar English structure: Praha groš - as supported by Google hits for very respectable scholars.[1] -- Matthead discuß!     O       11:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually, Prague groschen is supported by "the usual simple tests", which for all their shortcomings are far more reliable than a simple unrestricted google search. - Best regards, Evv 19:28, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, real simple test: about 300 books Prager Groschen versus about 30 Prague Groschen - greetings Labbas 14 January 2007
Take a closer look at that search: it's 263 books using Prager Groschen, of which only 3 are in English, versus 23 books using Prague groschen, all of which are in English. If you haven't done so yet, please read Wikipedia:Naming conventions (especially "Use English words") & Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). - Best regards, Evv 12:33, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Evv, thanks for your involved work on this. While Prague groschen is better than grosch, or grosh, none of them are factual names ever used on the coins though. About English on English wikipedia, your message is wonderful, please direct that to users like Serafin/131.. sample Talk:Jan Dzierżon and please also apply that to the vast amount of non-english places and person names (sample: search for John Dlugosz, English name for historian, need to change to non-english Jan Długosz). Thanks so much. Labbas 15 January 2007

Book results:

  • Prague groschen, a made-up name, which in actuality did not exist for the coin is used in 23 books in English (perhaps many Polish translations to English)
  • Prager Groschen, the factual name, is used in 263 books in Czech, Latin and German language

Greetings- Labbas 15 January 2007

[edit] Requested move to Prague groschen

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was moved Patstuarttalk|edits 04:32, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Prager Groschen → Prague groschen — Move from the German name to the one commonly used in English books, per WP:UE and to reflect common English usage, as illustrated in the "Simple tests" sub-section below. - Evv 09:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add #'''Move''' or #'''Keep''' in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation (with further comment in the "Discussion" section), then sign your opinion with ~~~~

[edit] Move to Prague groschen.

  1. Move, as nominator. - Evv 09:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
  2. Support per results below. It would bend my credence to expect English to have retained the inflected German adjective. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:33, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
  3. Support. Why was the article renamed to "Prager Groschen" anyway ? --Lysytalk 23:10, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
  4. Support per nomination. —  AjaxSmack  04:38, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Keep at Prager Groschen.

[edit] Simple tests

A more comprehensive search can be seen in the "The usual simple tests" section above.

Google Print test:

Google Scholar test:

Amazon.com test:

Best regards, Evv 09:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Book results:

  • Prague groschen, a made-up name, which in actuality did not exist for the coin is used in 23 books in English (perhaps many Polish translations to English)
  • Prager Groschen, the factual name, is used in 263 books in Czech, Latin and German language

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.159.31.82 (talk • contribs) 02:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC).

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../p/r/a/Talk%7EPrague_groschen_365e.html"