Talk:Poverty threshold
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[edit] Old talk
- Whether someone in this situation is "living in poverty" depends on who's doing the talking. Some advocates say that welfare]] programs should be taken into account; thus, a person receiving government assistance may be living well above the poverty level, if all sources of income are summed up. Other advocates apply the term "living in poverty" in a way that seems to include people whose private and public income exceeds the poverty line.
Which advocates?. Who are you talking about? Do these people have names? Also, what do you care about the turn-of-phrase living in poverty? DanKeshet
- As far as I know, welfare programs, at least in the US, leave their recipients below the poverty line. If you're aware of any exceptions, Ed, please identify them.Vicki Rosenzweig 20:36, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Too tired and too poor to do it tonight, Dan/Vicki. I'll brush up on the facts tomorrow or over the weekend. Thanks for the rv, I'm wikied out... --Uncle Ed 20:47, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
[edit] Growth
I have removed this statement because it is about the determinants of economic growth, not poverty. Wheter or not inequality leads to growth should be discussed somewhere else, I think.
"It is not in a society's interest to have a large percentage of its citizens living below the poverty line as they have no disposable income and thus adversely affect economic growth. A baseline goal for a progressive government is to have all of its constituents possess an income level at least that of the poverty line."
[edit] References
I will supply some references tomorrow...
[edit] Improvement drive
A related topic, Grameen Bank, has been nominated on Wikipedia:This week's improvement drive. Contribute your expertise and vote for Grameen Bank on Wikipedia:This week's improvement drive!--Fenice 06:47, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Relative poverty
The poverty line is the level of income below which one cannot afford to purchase all the resources one requires to live. People who have an income below the poverty line have no discretionary disposable income, by definition.
This is not the way it tends to work in Europe. This would seem to be an absolute poverty definition. In the UK and much of the EU people in poverty are counted using income inequality measures. In the UK the poverty line is drawn at 60% of Median household income adjusted for the size of household and the age and composition of the family. This is a useful International standard used by for example the Luxembourg Income Study.
The current definition (above) is an "inadequate resources" definition not a "deprived lifestyle" one. The definition as written prevents social exclusion being considered as a poverty issue.
Peter Townsend (Poverty In the United Kingdom, 1979) defined poverty as following:
Individuals, families and groups in the population can be said to be in poverty when they lack the resources to obtain the types of diet, participate in the activities and have the living conditions and amenities which are customary, or at least widely encouraged or approved, in societies to which they belong. Their resources are so seriously below those commanded by the average individual or family that they are in effect, excluded from the ordinary living patterns, customs and activities.
[edit] Is there an exact number?
Can someone link to what the poverty line is in america... the diff states? Or list it in the article. I make less than 10k a year. Am I poor? Squanderdalfast 09:59, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
The Reltive poverty line may also be a regional Issue. Here in New York State a Per Captia Income for a Family of 3 of 35,000 a year would be below the poverty line if you live in New York City but if you live in Buffalo NY you would be considered Middle Class. The Cost of Living Differs a lot between diffrent regions of the United States with the Midwest having the lowest cost of living. The Cost of Living and Wages to meet that cost depends on regional access to food and jobs and housing.
The US Census Bureau contains much data about income levels in the United States US Census Bureau Site on Poverty
[edit] this is nonsense
"The poverty line is the level of income below which one cannot afford to purchase all the resources one requires to live." By this definition, there can be almost nobody below the poverty line. Anybody who falls under the line would soon die. We don't count dead people, do we? In the US, people supposedly under the poverty line are able to have cigarettes, alcohol, lottery tickets, cable TV, electrical power, cell phones, indoor plumbing, and numerous other things which are not at all required to live. (proof: my grandfather grew up without such things, yet he obviously survived) A person has disposable income if they can waste money on cigarettes and alcohol. AlbertCahalan 05:07, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Um...what are you talking about? First, I'm not sure where your definition of poverty came from. But, regardless, your understanding of purchasing "all the resources one requires to live," hardly takes into the account the cost of food, housing, utilities and health care.
Clearly, people do live for some time without food, clothing, and shelter, but [those are often the people we wish to avoid in the subway station] should they have to? Further, have you any idea what the cost of living is in some places (a studio apt. in an accessible location in NYC will cost you no less than $900 per month [and that is the absolute minimum])? And, do you any idea what is involved in applying for and receiving benefits? Or, have you any idea what those benefits actually amount to?
[edit] In reply to this is nonsense
Just a note - I worked for welfare in Australia for a while and I also study sociology. What you say is true, a lot of people on welfare do obtain such things as cell phones, alcohol etc. but what you are not taking into account is that these people are often buying these things at the expense of other things such as rent or school books for their children. Many of these people are never debt free and they do not know how to handle their money (what little they have of it) because often they are decendents of very poor people and have not learnt about debt cycles etc. "resources one requires to live" also includes basic health care and for many people living below the poverty line them getting ill - which frequently happens because of the unsuitable conditions they live in- means that they have to choose whether to pay to go see a doctor or to put food on the table. Take for instance in Tasmania where I live, there are a growing number of people who are being trapped in a cycle of poverty because they cannot afford to pay for dental care, their rotting teeth exclude them from society and make it impossible for them to get jobs or rental properties, not being able to get a job means they can't afford to get dental care and so the cycle goes on and on. That is what living below the poverty line is, its about not being able to make ends meet or only just making ends meet so their is no money left over for emergencies like illness or broken down cars. It's about finding yourself trapped giving away 35% of your income when you rent to pay someone elses mortgage and never being able to own your own home. The amount of people I saw in arrears with their rent at Welfare was phenomenal, some of it was because the person wasted their money(viewing it as pocketmoney), for other people it was because they had to decide what they needed to pay for- the doctor for their sick child or the rent. Anyway I think you don't have a clue what poverty is really like for the disadvantaged. You probably think their slackers etc. and waste tax payers money. But until you study sociology you wont understand why these people are the way they are or how our society moulds them to be that way.
Kit,
[edit] A Small Query
While reading required school reading, I came across the mentioning of a "poverty threshold" / "poverty level". I was wondering if this is synonymous with "poverty line"... because I could then make redirects from the other two terms. Furthermore, the book mentions that the poverty threshold is computed by being "three times the cost of a minimally nutritous diet for a given number of people over a given period of time". It claims that research shows that ppor families of three or more persons spend approximately 1/3 of their income on food. I would, of course, source this, as well as another source they mention in the book. But, essentially I wanted to see everyone else's opinion. thanks! Zouf 00:09, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Problems with Threshold
It seems to me that there is not a NPOV presented in the problems paragraph. Is there sourcing or a rewrite that could be done on it? I would do it myself, but am a newbie and scared to attempt it. Fundamentaldan 20:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Almost all societies have some citizens living in poverty.
"Almost all societies have some citizens living in poverty. "
The above statement (in logic/math terms) could be restated. There exists at least one society which has no citizens living in poverty.
Now, please tell me. Where is there a society on this planet that has no citizens living in poverty?
I assert there are none. If my assertion is correct, then the quoted sentence is nonsense. If I am wrong, I am willingly corrected. Thank you.
- Answering that strictly, I'd say that both Brunei and UAE have none of their citizens living in poverty (see Economy of the United Arab Emirates and Demographics of Brunei). However both economies rely very heavily on non-citizen migrant workers, many of whom might well be said to live in poverty.
--Lost tourist 17:10, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Specific country definitions
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Please help improve this article or section by expanding it. Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion. This article has been tagged since January 2007. |
This article is pointed to by various infoboxes via the redirect from "Poverty line". See e.g. Economy of Poland. It is not useful to know that 17% of the population of Poland is living in poverty, without knowing where the poverty line for that statistic is being drawn. That needs to be explained in this article, or a different article needs to be used as the destination for these links. -- Beland 05:43, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] proposed new topic paragraph
I propose that the intro/topic paragraph be revised to
- The poverty threshold, or poverty line, is the minimum level of income deemed necessary to achieve an adequate standard of living. In practice, like the definition of poverty, the official or common understanding of the poverty line is significantly higher in developed nations like the United States than in the Third World.
This is more in line with various sources, such as those at [1]. At least, the intro should agree with the article on poverty. I am unsure whether the section about discretionary income from older edits ([2]) should be included. -Grick(talk to me!) 11:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
- OK, I've gone ahead and changed it now. Please put any discussion here. -Grick(talk to me!) 08:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
