Talk:Potlatch

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[edit] Inaccurate

This is not a very accurate article about potlatch. It's not historically correct at all. The potlatch was a demonstration of prestige, not an exchage of gifts. In may cases, the host of a potlatch publically destroyed valuable objects, to demonstrate his power and wealth. Where does this idea of a "gift economy" come from? Kind of a patronizing interpretation.

It would also be of note to mention that the potlatch was outlawed because the new destructive potlatches also involved killing hundreds of slaves that they kept. This fact is often glossed over to preserve our society's concept of "the noble savage". In reality, Indians of the NW coast kept many slaves, and slaughtered them by the hundreds to gain status.

[--not signed]

See my comments in #7 "goods destroyed - by the giver or the receiver?" (below)Skookum1 07:24, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Model of modern movements?

The article claims "The potlatch has also become a model, albeit a sometimes poorly understood one, for the open source software movement and a variety of social movements." Is there citable evidence of this? (Obviously, there are many modern instances of sharing, giving things away, community benefit, etc. that are not modelled after the potlatch.) --Ds13 06:38, 2005 Apr 19 (UTC)

Eric Raymond's influential article Homesteading the Noosphere explicitly invokes potlatch. Indeed, if you look back through this article's history, you'll see earlier incarnations of it were written from the point of view of someone interested in FOSS. The way that Mauss's writing on potlatch influenced authors such as Georges Bataille can be seen if you google Bataiile and potlatch, or if you read Bataille. See the wikipedia entries on the College_of_Sociology if you are interested. There is also a science fiction convention with the name, etc. etc.

Great response; thanks for the ESR link. It just wasn't intuitive to me that a First Nations ceremony would have been at all directly thought of in FOSS culture. Cool stuff. --Ds13 18:18, 2005 Apr 19 (UTC)

These are helpful comments--I agree that the main article would be enhanced by including the practice of destruction of property, as well as the practice of giving away items. [--not signed]

[edit] Links broken

The link at the very bottom of the page, the last one under the heading "External Links", shown as: An analysis of Potlatch and modern versions of the same from a pyschohistorical perspective goes to the wrong web page ( http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/money.html ). It should actually point to: http://www.diningiworld.com/wiki-Potlatch . Maybe someone who knows how can change that link.

  • The first link has been removed. The second is a Wikipedia mirror so it has not been added. Capitalistroadster 21:50, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Potlatch" and "potluck"

I think this article should be expanded to include the practise of the potlach in contemporary society. Many churches make use of the potlach. Also, trendy young hipsters often and shre fellowship around organically grown potlach items.

I think that would be better covered in a separate article. And you may be confusing potlatch with “potluck” where everyone brings food to share in a large meal. Also your jest about pot smoking is not particularly funny nor relevant to the discussion. — Jéioosh 20:07, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

The definition of "potluck" as a portmanteau word that is confused with "potlatch" is correct in my opinion. Church suppers are not related to the Native American festival practice. [--not signed]

Descriptions of modern, non-Native potlatching need elaboration and citing of their sources. So far, most of these appear to be largely confusing or conflating "potlatch" and "potluck". Origin and citing source for origin of "potluck" could be useful. --GoDot 12:15, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kwakwaka'wakw big house

This image is currently a featured picture candidate. Due to a large influx of new candidates there are very few votes for this image. If you have an opinion on this image please go to Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Kwakwaka'wakw big house and cast your vote. HighInBC 13:29, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The law was never reversed but dropped from the books?

The article says "The law was never reversed, but as opposition to the potlatch waned in the twentieth century it was dropped from the books". What is the difference between the law getting reversed and dropped from the books? // habj 16:34, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Might be a technical difference: for the law to be reversed, legislation would have to be passed. For it to be dropped from the books, that might mean no legislation is passed but the Crown/DA/Attorney-General simply no longer enforce it, i.e. it's a ministerial-level change, not ratified by formal act of legislature/executive.Skookum1 20:21, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] goods destroyed - by the giver or the receiver?

The article mentions gifts being destroyed after bing received, presumably then by the receiver. The article mentions nothing about the holder of a potlatch destroying goods - isn't that notion more common? For instance, my dictionary (in Swedish, Nationalencyklopedin)) mentions destruction of canoes or ornamented copper plates, and even killing of slaves by the owner and holder of potlatch but nothing about the receiver destroying gifts. If these examples are incorrect and an example of misunderstanding of the potlatch, that should probably be discussed in the article. // habj 10:30, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm from BC and the article strikes me as being "euhemerized", with many of the un-nice features of Pacific Northwest Coast cultures left out, such as slavery (and the killing of slaves at potlatches), or the wanton rivalry between certain chieftaincies which saw fortunes extinguished and often resulted in violence. Nearly every page on BC First Nations has a blank spot where anything to do with something other than "we were holistic-Mother Earth-respecting people who liked to trade with their neighbours and got along peacefully until the white man came"; the truth is vastly different but also a political hot-potato; even with current natives affairs some First Nations people denounce any non-First Nations people for having any opinion at all (see RedMan's comments on Talk:Oka Crisis). So yes, there are major additions in terms of content and context needed for this page, and for a host of others; but frankness about slavery, cannibalism, intertribal warfare, the violence of the First Nations "shaker" religion and other secret societies, and so on is sure to get complaints from earnest acolytes of the Native Renaissance who maintain that all evils in white accounts are either lies or misunderstandings....Skookum1 20:27, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Potlatch--the Ultimate Tournament

There should be a link on this page to a new page about the large Ultimate tournament in Seattle. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thisismysn000 (talk • contribs) 14:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC).


[edit] Past/Present Tense

I'm unsure of why the article is written in the past tense when the potlatch is still a big part of the Indigenous cultures on the coast. OldManRivers 07:43, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Rewording

The first paragraph needs to be reworded as it does not make sense. These sentences in particular are problematic: "The potlatch takes the form of governance, economy, social status and continuing spiritual practices. A potlatch, usually involving ceremony, includes births, rites of passages, weddings, celebrations, funeral, honoring of the deceased, through political, economic and social exchange."

What is meant by saying that a potlatch takes the form of governance practices, or that a potlatch includes births through exchange? None of this explains what a potlatch is. 142.66.45.189 20:36, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I appologize for the wording. I know it ain't the best, but I had to edit it for the way it looked. I would apreciate some edits here. I'll fix it up as much as I can, but anyone with a better English language, could take a stab at it. The way it stood, it didn't clearly describe what the pot-latch is, and still is, today. How vital it is, and how much of the culture involves this system. OldManRivers 10:20, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Further Reading List

Is there a way to make this better. It's getting longer then the actual article now, and although I think it's good to have all these reading sources, it's getting a bit long. Idea's? OldManRivers 21:02, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I didn't hear a response back so I went and created a bibliography page. Potlatch Bibliography. I think this cleans it up a lot. The bibliography was starting to take up more then the actual page. OldManRivers 09:43, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I get distracted elsewhere and forget stuff on pages here and there that I could have helped with, and lately have been avoiding Wiki'ing as I have real-world stuff going on and will be spending less and less time here overall; more on this later, i.e. books for the list, but for now I think there's issues with the new title according to wiki guidelines; probably best to post a notice at the BC Project talkpage like I did for Rancherie an the ship lists; many of those guys know the naming conventions well; what will happen is that your Potlatch Bibliography would become a rediret to something like List of bibliographical materials on the potlatch or something to that effect, or thereabouts.Skookum1 10:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I was stumped on naming it, but that is what wiki is for. Correcting the mistakes of OldManRivers. Thanks though. And, I'm kind of on the boat with you. I was checking this site 10-20 times a day. Got it down to 3. I'll add now when I know I have something to add...lol OldManRivers 20:19, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Why doe someone keep putting the bibliography back into the list? OldManRivers 23:51, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

That would be Saros136, who you'll find through the edit history; must be an admin - he's using a bot named popups to find deleted materials; not sure how it works but this one involves, I think, judgement calls; just leave a note on his page; could have been that the old bibliography title wasn't acceptable, I wouldn't know.Skookum1 06:18, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
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