Talk:Portuguese people

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Contents 1 South African Portuguese Population 2 Number of Brazilians claiming Portuguese Ancestry 3 Cape-Verdians? 4 The Ogre (rv racilalist pov) 5 Roman Catholicism and the Portuguese 6 Influence of the black people 7 Nelly Furtado 8 Portuguese hair and eye color

[edit] South African Portuguese Population

What is the source for arriving at 1 million people of Portguguese ancestry living in South Africa? This would immply that 1 in 5 white people in South Africa are of Portuguese extraction. Is there a census or other source of data that can back this claim up? The source should appear on this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.167.128.68 (talk • contribs).

There are about 300,000 or 400,000 people of Portuguese extraction in SA. In the 1980s they represented about 9% of the white South African population. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.242.198.37 (talk • contribs).

That may be so. But what is your source? The Ogre 14:18, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,879516,00.html "Heavy Casualties. The combined Soviet-Cuban contingent has inflicted heavy casualties on the F.N.L.A. and UNITA forces, despite military support from Zaïre regulars and South African advisers. As a result, Portuguese businessmen are recruiting replacements from the large Portuguese community (400,000 people) in South Africa."

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=South+Africa Also includes Angloromani, Eastern Yiddish, Greek (70,000), Gujarati, Hai||om, Hakka Chinese (6,063), Kung-Ekoka (3,500), Portuguese (617,000), Standard German (45,000), Tamil (250,000), Yue Chinese (15,000), workers from nearby countries (2,700,000).

http://www.teiaportuguesa.com/cacaaotesourolusofonia/lusofoniajorgecouto.htm "Em África merecem ainda destaque o numero de falantes na África do Sul (superior a 1 milhão, dos quais 600 mil portugueses e 400 mil). Depois do inglês e do africano, línguas oficiais da África do Sul, o português surge como a primeira língua estrangeira. Na Namíbia, país que tem fronteira sul com Angola, um em cada cinco habitantes é falante de português."

http://www.igadi.org/arquivo/te_se05/transaccions_identitarias_a_diaspora_portuguesa.htm "Táboa 1. Portugueses que viven no estranxeiro* (1997) [...] África do Sur 500.000

• Cálculo estimativo.

Fonte: Ministério dos Negócios Estrangeiros (Portugal). Citado en Rocha-Trindade (2000)."

[edit] Number of Brazilians claiming Portuguese Ancestry

I wonder where the 34,000,000 figure in the article comes from. As far as I know, the Brazilian census does not include any data on self-declared ancestry. There are no official estimates therefore of the number of Brazilians who claim to be descendents of Portuguese settlers or immigrants. However, a question on ancestry was introduced a few years ago in one of IBGE's annual national household sampling surveys ("pesquisa nacional por amostra de domicílios"). If I´m not mistaken, the percentage of Brazilians claiming Portuguese ancestry in that particular survey was merely 13 %. Considering the universe of the Brazilian population, that would represent approximately 20 million people today (as opposed to 34 million). 161.24.19.82 11:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know where that info. is from, but there are various official and non-official sources on the web which shows estimate of those with solely or mainly Portuguese ethnic origins from 20 million to 50 million or more. Considering over half of the population of Brazil has at least some degree of Portuguese ancestry, it is difficult to accurately tell in any census. Epf 21:31, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I believe 34 million is not an overstatement but an understatement, as before the independence in 1825 portuguese were the pretty much the single european settlers, and after the independence portuguese were at all times the larger numbers of immigrants. The referred 13% of brazilians claiming portuguese ancestry in that survey may refer only to those who can trace their origin back to a portuguese grandfather or grandmother but reflect at the most last century migration and not the 500 years of peopling. Fernão. 15.06.2006

Sources please. Proof that 34,000,000 identify themselves as "Portuguese".

I've noticed that someone has decided to use another wikipedia article as a citation. This is not acceptable. Look at Citation #1. I also notice that citations are being used but citation templates are not being used with them. Templates provide a standard format for citations and often cause a contributor not to forget key elements. For example, the cite web template requires, URL, ACCESSDATE and TITLE. There are additional fields, but it will error out if you don't atleast contribute those 3 elements. Please see WP:CITET. Nhl4hamilton 18:13, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cape-Verdians?

I feel like this article should mention something about Cape Verde?? 141.154.255.167 Talk, 16:25, 27 April 2006.

Sure, but what are you thinking should be included about Cape Verde? Epf Talk, 02:07, 3 May 2006.

Cape Verde is now an independant state. Its current population or its diaspora doesn´t consider itself Portuguese. Cape Verdean immigrants were considered "Black Portuguese" decades ago in New England, USA.

[edit] The Ogre (rv racilalist pov)

sorry, but it is a view which is valid ( Previous version ) and is not based on wishful thinking but historical and scientific facts and evidence. i could cite sources but i dont see a reason why, when it is not such a secret, other than to justify these claims to "racialists" of an opposing view who may want to suppress this information. if this is the case then i am in a position to require sources for the current claims in the article. in the Spaniard article claims of similar nature are made and mentions DNA etc. also to its own extent and i dont see it as being a problem over there. the theories in the pre-reverted version were not expressed as being fact moreso than what was already there. one could construe the action of reverting to be racialist since it is suppression of information not from my own research but from what wikipedia would consider verifiable external sources. it didnt all have to be deleted. even the part about skin tone and even average height was removed when i see it as being no different from the mention of hair and eye color (which makes a (racialist?) point of saying that blue and green eyes and blonde hair can be found) and the population is in fact now over 10.5 million according to the CIA worldbook of facts, which i may not necessarily always agree with but is a source which is external and i dont think a census is as subjective as certain other particulars. maybe this part was just a victim of complete reversion, nevertheless the information which was added is as valid as any other claims previously in the article with equal backing. --Lusitano Transmontano 01:05, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Roman Catholicism and the Portuguese

This article mentions in its very first paragraph that Roman Catholicism is the predominant religion of the Portuguese. Although that cannot be considered false, one can nowadays easily witness that the majority of the Portuguese Catholics seldom practice Catholicism, with many not practicing it at all and identifying themselves as "catholics" just for the sake of it being the common norm. Atheism and Agnosticism are on the rise in Portugal, especially among the youth. Other religions are also present and growing. Therefore, I would suggest a section in the article refering to the religious panorama of the Portuguese, rather than the Catholicism reference in the first paragraph which may mislead the reader into believing that the Portuguese are usually devout Catholics.--Húsönd 00:44, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed! The Ogre 21:29, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

In the infoboxe it says "Religion: Catholicism". Shouldn't we say "Roman Catholicism" or something like that, since Catholic is also used by some other churchs (Anglicans, ...)?

I believe that you might be confusing "Catholic" with "Christian". Anglicans, etc., are Christians, but not Catholics. Anyway, "Roman Catholicism" is indeed a more accurate form than just "Catholicism".--Húsönd 01:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I wasnt confusing, in fact, I read somewhere that some anglicans or protestants want to be called catholics but not in the roman meaning (francly, I don't understand that subject very well, but I think that it was because of that controversy that the article Catholic Church had to be renamed Roman Catholic church or something). Anyway, seeing that some portuguese may not be Roman catholic I will leave it like that. Cheers.

I have never read so much foolishness as the comment stated by Husond. Catholics are indeed Christian. In fact, they are the largest Christian denomination in the world. Just read Wikipedia's Christianity page.

I think you misunderstood Húsönd's comment. On the other hand, Húsönd does not seem to know that, indeed, the Roman Catholic Church is not the only Christian church which calls itself "Catholic". FilipeS 17:35, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Influence of the black people

Where is the influence of the black people in the portuguese? Portugal was the most slavery state in Europe. Thousands of slave came to Portugal and millions of Portuguese has blood of black people actually. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.6.19.29 (talk • contribs).

See Sub-Saharan DNA admixture in Europe. FilipeS

Sources please. Preferably from serious sources, ie. no neo-nazi or "White Power" propaganda sites.

[edit] Nelly Furtado

Oh for god's sake, what is nelly furtado doing there? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AnYoNe! (talk • contribs).

Nelly Furtado's parents are Portuguese...Opinoso 19:36, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes. She's a Portuguese Canadian. The Ogre 16:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

she's portuguese 100% and also speaks the language fluently, not to mention she has albums in Portuguese. 70.50.22.159 16:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Portuguese hair and eye color

I've added some percentages based on anthropologist Peter Frost[1]. The original source is: Frost, Peter (2006), "European hair and eye color - A case of frequency-dependent sexual selection?", Evolution and Human Behavior, n.27, 85-103. The Ogre 16:07, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Well the source you provided is a joke with no reference at all to the source statistic material. There is no way portugal has 20% blondes in its population, believe me. Only countries in northern Europe have % that high. Watchan FC Porto game and tell me how many blondes you see in the crowd at the Dragao stadium. Like 1 in 1000. C'mon guy, don't be ridiculous here. 70.50.22.159 16:22, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello 70.50.22.159! You said:

eh - Listen guy, give me a break here. I know alot of Portuguese people, and I only know one who has MIXED blonde shades. No one in Portugal has lightest blodne shades seen in northern Europe and there is now way that 20% of the whole country has blonde hair ? Have yo uever been there ? There is NO way the country has that much blondes and I would bet my life on that. England barely has that percentage even though the majority of people there are of pale complexion. DOn't be riduloucs. The website you referenced is a joke. Portugal has one of the highest percetnages of darker complexions in all of Europe, and the smallest in lighter complexions.

First of all I must tell that it is a bit annoying to have to talk to an anonymous IP adress... Why don't you register? Secondly, regarding our small "war" in the Portuguese people article, let me tell you that it was never my intension to say that 50% of the Portuguese have blond hair! I also made a mistake, I meant light coloured hair, not blond. This includes various shades of brown and red hair. Notice also that the percentages are shown in intervals. The references I used are also shown in the articles White people and Hair color. And I am Portuguese! And I live in Portugal! And I am not a nordicist of any kind. I was just trying to find some sources and numbers to qualify the assertion. And there are a lot of Portuguese with light coloured eyes (I would say about 30%, but that is just my impression), as there are a lot of Portuguese, albeit and obvioulsy not the majority, that have some shade of light coloured hair (and I do known many that have absolutly blond hair). I wrote what I wrote because the article by Peter Frost (Why is Frost, Peter (2006), "European hair and eye color - A case of frequency-dependent sexual selection?", Evolution and Human Behavior, n.27, 85-103 "a joke"? Isn't a published article in a scientific paper a legitimate source?) is a recent source with numbers! I won't add it again soon. I'm waiting for reactions. Let's both relax a bit. Cheers! The Ogre 20:23, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

The maps shown in White people: