Wikipedia talk:Polling is not a substitute for discussion

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Archive 1 (through September 2006) Archive 2 (through November 10, 2006) Archive 3 (through February 20, 2007)

Contents

[edit] Archive

There's been no discussion for 3 weeks. Since things seem pretty stable with the new version, I've archived everything. -- Samuel Wantman 10:17, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nutshell

Recently, the nutshell was changed from "should be used with care" to "should be used with care when assisting discussions", implying that in other circumstances it need not be used with care. I object to this change. >Radiant< 11:30, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

  • I think it needs a complete rewrite. For example, how are decisions made through "editing"? --JJay 11:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
    • I'm not sure either. Shouldn't it simply be "discussion" rather than "editing and discussion"? >Radiant< 11:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Radiant! what is your objection specifically? Where else is polling being used other than in assisting discussions? (→Netscott) 11:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
  • (edconf) My objection is that this reads like polling need only be used with care in certain circumstances. >Radiant< 11:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
  • This seems like reasoning for its being unnecessary. It certainly wouldn't be used in an article. So to me having that phrase sounds like the "department of redundancy department". -- Samuel Wantman 11:43, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

←Unfortunately people sometimes forget that when polls are used all they are meant to be is an assistant to discussion. There's no reason this shoudn't be clearly spelled out here. (→Netscott) 11:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

  • Okay, so how about this: Wikipedia decisions are not made by popular vote, but rather through discussions by reasonable people working towards consensus. Polling is only meant to be an assistant to discussion, and should be used with care. >Radiant< 11:58, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
  • That works for me. (→Netscott) 11:59, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
  • It's still not true, though. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:59, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Why not? --Milo H Minderbinder 14:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Because sometimes there are popular votes.--Blue Tie 04:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
and sometimes there are typos in articles. Also, sometimes popular vote simply is the same as a logical consensus, but that does not mean the results were followed only by voting. -- Ned Scott 05:18, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Guidelines enacted

I have removed the line stating that guidelines are not "enacted" through voting. This reflects talk page discussion of the issue. On December 24, User Radiant wrote on this page that: there is no such thing as "guideline status" and neither are guidelines "enacted". On January 30, User:Radiant wrote on this page that: guidelines are not enacted period;. If guidelines are not "enacted" there is no reason for this guideline to discuss a process that does not take place. I also fail to see why User: Radiant is reverting this change in direct conflict with his statements here. --JJay 11:48, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

  • The reason for that statement is that some people mistakenly believe that guidelines are enacted through a vote, so it exists to clear up the confusion. Incidentally, per his earlier comments, that includes JJay. There are also some people that believe guidelines should be enacted through a vote; those people are encouraged to draft a workable system for doing so. >Radiant< 11:56, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
To me there are three clear, legitimate reasons for polls on wikipedia and one area where it is not clear and an obvious problem.
  1. Polls where decisions are required such as RfA.
  2. Combined with discussion, it can be used to help bring a group to a consensus. (this is hardly ever done on wikipedia but it is a valid way to come to consensus -- entirely ignored on wikipedia).
  3. Establishing what the consensus is or the degree that it exists.
The area where it is a problem is when a poll is used to squelch discussion toward consensus, particularly on articles. When a poll is used strictly to "break a log jam" or to establish a majority rules, dissenters go away approach, then there is a problem. --Blue Tie 13:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Do not agree that this is a guideline

I would like to be on record as saying that I have never agreed with this editorial being described as a guideline. I believe it was simply declared to be so by a very small number of people who rejected (and will continue to reject) other views. I do not believe it ever went through a good process and in fact, I do not think a good process exists for such things. --Blue Tie 05:52, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
  • As you've been told about a dozen times by now, if you want a formal process for writing guidelines, you should draft and propose such a process. Until such a process gets adopted, no guideline whatsoever will have "went through a good process", making your argument a vacuous truth. >Radiant< 10:49, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
    • I do not need to be lectured. I do not believe that I have the ability to define such a process and I do not think wikipedia wants a process to be in place. Im not gonna waste my time with that. But this essay is a bad idea and should not have been declared to be a guideline. --Blue Tie 12:02, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Absolutely agree with you Blue tie... this page isn't all all accurate in it's portrayal of how Wikipedia currently operates. (→Netscott)

This page explains part of good process. It is a corollary of Wikipedia:Consensus.

As such, a good process for creating guidelines is known to exist. This page describes one part of it. (By excluding a negative.) --Kim Bruning 23:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Consensus is a flawed page. It is clear as mud. If a good process exists, I would appreciate being directed to the page that describes it and outlines the standards for when things become policy. I would like to see how that applies to the process that was involved in joining reliable source and verifiablity into a single attribution policy, because the main thing that everyone praises there is how clear the process was.--Blue Tie 12:07, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, it needs a lot of tidying. The problem is that there's people playing wikinomic in the project namespace, so the s/n ratio is abysmal. :-( Can you go there and explain what issues remain with the page? --Kim Bruning 14:11, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I have left a few little notes. I am not sure I could fix the concept in my own head much less in a group of thousands on wikipedia. Consensus requires such a strong "good heartedness" on the part of each person. If one person fails that test (and it is a higher test than "good faith") consensus can easily break down unless it is well defined. And how do you define it? Anyway, I am a bit ill now and cannot think very clearly.--Blue Tie 19:03, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, there's a cold virus racing around the globe. I had my worst day on friday. --Kim Bruning 13:34, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
  • I agree this page does not have sufficient support of the community to be a guideline. It is too heavily anti-polling. Johntex\talk 16:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Note

I object to the sentence that "Wikipedia works by building consensus however many of Wikipedia processes do work through polling". First, that seems to imply that these processes do not actually work by consensus; and second, it duplicates text already better explained a few sections down on the page ("Deletion, moving and featuring"). >Radiant< 12:00, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

  • And look at WP:ATT/P for a recent example of why polling on acrimonious issues tends to backfire. >Radiant< 12:01, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
    • The poll on that issue was called, by Jimbo Himself I believe, because the "consensus" process was not working. Or to be more precise, at first there appeared to be a consensus, and then after WP:ATT was published as a policy, it became unclear that there was a consensus. It could be said that what really backfired was the attempt to change the presentation of several of Wikipedia's most important policies through the regular "consensus" process, and that the polling initiated by Our Leader is an effort to repair the damage. 6SJ7 18:30, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
      • Perhaps you should ask him. >Radiant< 09:02, 2 April 2007 (UTC) By which I meant, lots of things "could be said" about anybody's actions, but you should not make assumptions about what Jimbo's motives or goals are. >Radiant< 11:17, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
        • Perhaps we should form our own opinions rather than asking Jimbo "what do you think about this?" or "what were you thinking when you did that?" Johntex\talk 16:35, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
          • Totally agree with Johntex's sentiments here, the essay Radiant! created WP:JIMBOSAID specifically covers this. At the same time I also agree that this page has no business being tagged as a guideline. (→Netscott) 16:50, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
            • Actually, now that I have found and read exactly what Jimbo said about WP:ATT [1], it is clear that my supposition was correct. What I thought he meant is what he said. As for WP:JIMBOSAID, while it is difficult to argue with a lot of your essay, it does not cover the WP:ATT situation. Jimbo made a recent, clear statement of what should happen, he is the "ultimate authority" on what should happen (as your essay page acknowledges), and it happened. You should be rejoicing that something on Wikipedia actually worked. 6SJ7 16:30, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
            • To Netscott: You and I agree that this page should not be tagged as a guideline, though perhaps our reasoning in getting to that point is slightly different. (I see Jimbo's calling of a poll on a major issue, with a reference to "certification of the results" no less, as being relevant to the "guideline" status of a page that deprecates polling.) In fact, I was supporting your position in my actions on the "tags", although strangely enough, of all the people who changed the tags back and forth, I seem to have been the only one who received a "warning" on my talk page over it. 6SJ7 16:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Should not be a guideline

This page isn't truthful in it's explanation of current practices. So much of Wikipedia depends on polls that if this page is going to be a guideline it should better reflect that. (→Netscott) 12:02, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

  • It already does, see the relevant section on deletion and featuring. >Radiant< 12:07, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
  • No, the lead is wrong. It is too anti-polling based upon what current Wikipedia practices are. Until this is repaired this page reads false. (→Netscott) 12:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Your new wording, however, stated more-or-less that Wikipedia works by consensus, except for RFA/AFD/etc which work by polling. That is far more false than the current wording. By the way, a disagreement over wording does not invalidate the concept, as I'm sure you know. >Radiant< 12:11, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Nice Radiant!, I suppose I'll have to do the same to balance things out here. Polling doesn't negate consensus, you know this to be true. Polling is an integral part of how Wikipedia works and as such the lead of this page should reflect that. (→Netscott) 12:15, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
There's a problem where opinion polls/surveys look a lot like majority votes. Especially when you work with rough consensus: "If we can get just 80% on board for this decision, we have enough agreement and can call it quits"... it looks VERY MUCH like majority voting. But there are some big differences and nasty gotchas if you assume that it is so. For instance, a lot of people will yell at you and call you an idiot if you voice an odd or contentious opinion on a wikipedia-type poll or survey, without providing an explanation for that opinion. Also, people are sometimes surprised with the attention their oppose opinion garners on RFA for instance. (An oppose is worth 4-5 supports, and the whole point is to try to convince people... so no wonder opposers get so much attention! :-) ) --Kim Bruning 13:15, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I believe that the doctrine of Consensus as implemented on wikipedia has some great strengths. When editors collaborate in good faith it can be astonishingly powerful. But when it does not work, its failures are abysmal. And they fail pretty often. The issues with this page are actually more versions of the problem with "What is consensus"? That includes things like whether voting is good or bad, how should it be handled and even -- whether this is a a guideline.--Blue Tie 13:30, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Listen. The last time we had a disagreement over this we talked it out and reached a compromise. I'm offering, once more, to talk about the header which you object to and compromise on that. Yet instead you start claiming that the entire guideline is wrong based on disagreement over the wording of the header. Why don't we fix the header? >Radiant< 12:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
    • I'm taking the Guidline tag off. As until this is worked out the page should not be tagged as such. (→Netscott) 12:20, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
      • That may be your opinion but it's not backed by policy. Disagreement over the wording of a guideline does not mean it's not a guideline any more. Such disagreements are quite common and discussed on their talk page. I think your second attempt to fix the header is an improvement over the first. >Radiant< 12:24, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Radiant, you talk about a "compromise" but there has never been a compromise that supported making this a guideline. It "became" a guideline through bullying and ignoring the opinions of others, and they (we) eventually gave up. That is not consensus. 6SJ7 13:41, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
  • That is incorrect. The original version is still at m:polling is evil. The difference between that and this page should be obvious. This page has been rewritten from scratch with a wide amount of input, opinions and compromise. Consensus is not unanimity. And I'll thank you for not making personal attacks. >Radiant< 13:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Indeed 6SJ7, this is how Radiant! has played this out. I'm in this for the long haul now... I'm sick of folks talking about ZOMG pollling is eeeevvvviiiilll!!!! when is is used on an hourly basis all over Wikipedia. (→Netscott) 13:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Thankfully this page doesn't talk about "evil" at all. I suggest you take WP:VIE and m:polling is evil up for deletion, perhaps that will make people use the term "evil" less often. >Radiant< 14:04, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
One thing for sure. Radiant has worked long and tirelessly on this. His efforts deserve recognition. My criticisms are not directed at, what I view to be strong, good faith efforts to improve wikipedia and I do not think anyone should view his efforts as "backward" or negative. I do not even fault him for declaring it a policy. What's to stop him? There is no system to effectively or efficiently say otherwise and he has worked hard on something he believes will make a positive difference. I do not think personal attacks are correctly aimed.--Blue Tie 19:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Thank you. >Radiant< 09:02, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that I strongly support what Radiant! and Kim Bruning are doing on this page. I am not as active on the page as they are, and do not often say anything when I agree with what they are doing. I suspect I am not alone in my support of their efforts. -- Samuel Wantman 22:49, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this guideline in general, but it does take the extreme when it doesn't need to. By trying to really emphasize one point we mask the real reasons why we avoid pure polling. I often reads parts that are true, but don't properly explain why, or could be explained in a more accurate way. It almost feels like propaganda, and that tends to make people defensive even when they don't actually disagree with what it says. -- Ned Scott 23:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Not to say that it's "mostly" like that. Small changes in tone here and there can change the perspective of the same text greatly. -- Ned Scott 23:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Sounds good, what would you suggest? >Radiant< 09:02, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Wholeheartedly agree with your "propaganda" commentary there Ned Scott. This essay has been treating polling like the embarassing step sister to be hidden away and shunned. If that were how polling was considered on Wikipedia (ie: descriptive of current practice) that would be fine... but it is not... too much polling goes on on a daily basis and this should be properly recognized for what it is. (→Netscott) 00:12, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
  • There are sections that explain how AFD and RFA use polling. Perhaps you could suggest better wording for these? >Radiant< 09:02, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Polling can be as bad as not polling if it is done badly. I do have to say though, that, like war, polls may tend to settle things. --Blue Tie 20:37, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh, hell no. Not a guideline. It's a fine sentiment, a fine essay, but unless you're planning to do away with WP:RFA it's not a guideline. Polling is definitely not a substitute for discussion. But, that doesn't mean polling doesn't have its place as a structured way of assessing opinion. It's also standard practice, see Wikipedia:Attribution/Poll. Frankly, most of the time I see this or vie pulled out it's by people who see it as a threat to their own interpretation of "consensus". Derex 04:38, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

  • There is a section that explains how RFA uses polling. Perhaps you could suggest better wording for that?
  • I agree that the current wording is too anti-polling. It needs to be changed to reflect how valuable polling can be. Johntex\talk 04:40, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Polling can be very valuable in certain circumstances, but there are many subtle gotchas. Your average random poll can be quite poisonous, so just making up a poll and forging ahead can be very damaging indeed.

We seem to be lacking a page describing which circumstances polls do work great for, and what the gotchas are, and how to deal with them. And I don't mean when they should or should not work, according to your ideology! :-P

--Kim Bruning 13:38, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

If you want to talk about things that are "poisonous", how about endless discussions and revert/edit wars that never produce anything. I think that it's a matter of opinion as to whether endless discussion or polling are worse. Kim, it seems to me that when you analyze this issue, you compare discussions that produce consensus with polls that don't. Maybe you should look at the 15-or-so (I've lost count) talk pages/archives and edit histories for Allegations of Israeli apartheid, which is about a year old and shows no signs of resolution. In fact the "wars" over that article have recently heated up again, and if anything are worse than the battling that started the day the article first appeared. And yes, there have been a few polls along the way (not even counting "official" ones like AfD's and RPM's), with varying degrees of success. One set of polls showed that there probably was a consensus for a particular compromise title-change, and eventually there was a successful RPM in that direction, so that was a positive result (although admittedly, I was on the "winning" side and might feel differently if I wasn't). Several of the subsequent polls have merely confirmed that name change. There have been one or two polls about the text-content which have not been particularly successful, but they were really just outgrowths of the discussion and did not make the situation any worse than it was already. My point (or one of my points) is that if you have an article that is extremely controversial, with no consensus in any direction, with endless discussion and wars, chances are that a poll is going to make the situation neither better or worse. There are certain situations that the "consensus" method, with or without polling, simply cannot handle. 6SJ7 18:18, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I think it's a question of right tool for the job. You don't use a hammer for screws, or a screwdriver for nails (and neither is good for staples). In the same way, don't use discussions to get a quick grasp of who thinks what, don't use polls to make binding decisions, and in situations like you describe, perhaps use neither. Have you considered asking for a mediation committee mediator, or perhaps some help from an experienced mediation cabal person? (medcab mediators are generally less experienced than medcom these days, but more readily available).
I'm not sure even they can help here, there were roughly 1000 "broken" pages that may need a different wikipedia policy-set entirely, last time we measured in early 2006 (I'm going to guesstimate that number at around 3000 pages today). Not sure what to do with those yet. Policy for all the other 3M pages isn't really great yet :-P. Even so, asking for a mediator-type-person won't hurt, at least. --Kim Bruning 03:38, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree with SJ that both endless discussion and endless polling are Bad Things. Some issues on Wikipedia are perennially controversial, and there doesn't seem to be much we can do about that short of perma-protecting the relevant pages, and we don't want that either. >Radiant< 09:02, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Polling Currently Being Advocated by Jimbo Wales on Policy Mergers

It seems to me like the negativity expressed towards polls on this alleged policy is out-of-place. Wikipedia co-founder Jimbo Wales just advocated using a poll as a way to gauge whether or not several Wikipedia policies that currently exist under separate entries should be merged into one document. (See Wikipedia:Attribution/Poll). Shouldn't we soften the rhetoric here on this entry to reflect that polling does have a place in Wikipedia? --Sixtrojans 23:29, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps, but do note that the ATT poll itself teaches us many lessons on what not to do. In part, this is because we are missing credible polling guidelines atm, so people are trying to reinvent the wheel badly. Note that one does need to be most cautious about how, where and when to use polls. --Kim Bruning 03:27, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Section three on this page lists "straw poll guidelines". Are these credible, in your opinion? >Radiant< 09:02, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Very short, eh? And the presentation isn't exactly great. Several of those points were learned the hard way. It might be a good idea to explain why each of those points exists, before people decide to try anyway, and thus re-learn them :-P --Kim Bruning 14:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Based on the current situation, the "polling guidelines" should be fixed up, everything else on this page should be eliminated, what remains should be renamed "Polling guidelines" or something similar, and this page should redirect there. 6SJ7 15:03, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Er, no. That is not based on the current situation (which if anything again shows that polling can create big messes), that is based upon what was your opinion from the very start and what you have been entirely unwilling to make any compromises over. >Radiant< 15:06, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Polling cannot create a mess. It can fail to clean up a mess that already exists. Perhaps it can make it temporarily worse, but as I say above, the endless discussions do that also. 6SJ7 15:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
    • False. Check WP:ATT/P. First there was a suggestion of a poll. Then there was about a megabyte of discussion. Then there was a poll about the poll. Then there was a poll over the deletion of the poll about the poll. Yep, it's a mess indeed. And I remind you again to remain civil and refrain from making personal attacks. >Radiant< 15:20, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
IMHO, the relevant section of PNSD is consistent with the WP:ATT poll, in that it says that polling is occasionally used to test for consensus. My suggestion would be that everyone agree to revisit this issue once the WP:ATT poll closes to see if we have any more insights to add to the policy polling discussion. (I'm not sure how to phrase it, but the poll may turn out to have been helpful to test for consusus in this specific case -- I for one am very surprised at the size of the opposition to WP:ATT. There are also some potential insights in the form of the poll that was ultimately used - very broad positions, clarified by individual statements - and in any problems, successes or disasters that arise over the next week.) Are people open to tabling this issue until the poll is done, then committing to a full discussion of what the WP:ATT poll can teach us? Thanks, TheronJ 15:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I support TheronJ's suggestion. Why not take all tags off this page until the WP:ATT poll is done and then there can be a better discussion. Incidentally, I have seen that poll described on this page as some sort of disaster or train wreck or whatever, but when I have looked at the page (I still haven't decided how to "vote"), I don't see how that is the case. Maybe when it's over, the first thing someone can do, if they wish, is to provide (on this page) a specific critique of that poll, either how it was initiated or how it was conducted, or whatever their complaint is. 6SJ7 15:55, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I personally wouldn't take all tags off - my preference would be to leave the page as guideline (and disputed if necessary) and try to start a constructive discussion in a week. More generally, is the page as is stopping anyone from polling or just cautioning them? TheronJ 15:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

How can you be surprised at the opposition at the ATT poll. You know ahead of time that there is no community wide consensus for anything, and an entire community does not turn on a dime!

When changing policy, you get people to buy in a couple at a time, and wikipedia is large. So zero surprise. The outcome is quite comfortably in the ballpark of what could be expected. :-P --Kim Bruning 16:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, not entirely. Like I predicted, Monday saw the speed of edits on the poll go much faster, and it's swinging to be 2:1 in favor of ATT now. - Denny 16:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Denny, the poll currently is 274 in favor, 216 against. How are you getting 2:1? --Sixtrojans 20:55, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
It had been swinging that way, and leading to it, when I wrote that... - Denny 21:06, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
There's > 100 opposers. We would need to convince them, or deal with a massive split within the community. Good luck with that. As far as I can ascertain, the Attribution merger project was effectively terminated on the day the poll opened. :-/ --Kim Bruning 16:14, 2 April 2007 (UTC) Hence my request to at least delay polling. But that's all for post-mortem.
I don't get it. If there was no real consensus for the merger of the policies, and the poll results reveal and/or confirm that fact, isn't that a good thing? Or is "consensus" important only when one agrees with the outcome? I ask this as somewhat who has no real opinion one way or the other about WP:ATT. 6SJ7 04:27, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Tag war"

I removed that tag that Radiant added after seeing this on RFPP. It seems like only Radiant is going against others in the history. Also, in reality, Polls can be used at times. Polling is a supplement to discussion. - Denny 15:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

It seems others have agreed with your removal of that tag Denny. I've submitted it for deletion. (→Netscott) 15:32, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi, sorry -- my edit was based just on the edit warring that is going on over the tags. Others should step up if they agree to edit the tags--from an outsider's perspective it ends up looking like (based on edit history) that Radiant is exerting authority over policy to a degree that gives him/her some special rank/authoritative position when none exists. - Denny 15:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, I believe that is what is known as page ownership. (→Netscott) 15:34, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
(3x edit conflict) I put the tag back, not necessarily because I think it's the best tag for the page (I think the guideline tag would be that), but largely to show that Radiant is not alone in defending this page. Just because some of us don't get our hands dirty every day, that doesn't mean we're not watching and supporting Radiant's defense of our practices regarding polling and discussion. It's been removed again and replaced with a Guideline tag, which I'm perfectly happy with. -GTBacchus(talk) 15:35, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
  • (edconf) (resp to Netscott) It is unfortunate that you insist on making ad hominems rather than actually discuss the matter. You are well aware from the history that this page is supported by many people (including Tony Sidaway, Tjstrf, Centrx, Dmcdevit, Sean Black, Kelly Martin, Mackensen, JYolkowski, Mindspillage, Extreme Unction, Visviva, Kim Bruning, David Levy, Saxifrage, TheronJ, The Land, Doc Glasgow, JzG, JackyR, Samuel Wantman, Rossami, Psyphics, Daniel Bryant, Milo H Minderbinder, Friday, Jdforrester, Hipocrite and Calton). Ownership doesn't come into it. >Radiant< 15:36, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
With all due respect GTBacchus, have you read this page lately? It reads very false... and is propagandistically "anti-polling" which is not descriptive given how we know Wikipedia works. Such a page should not be tagged as a guideline. (→Netscott) 15:37, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
If the page needs to be fixed to better reflect practice, then that should happen. The spirit of the guideline — that polls can be harmful and that we use them as vehicles for discussion, and not as ends in themselves — is important and true. It is the case that a fair amount of polling goes on here, and a casual observer might mistakenly get the impression that we're forever voting on things. This page explains that we're not voting, and that we need to always keep that in mind when creating and participating in polls. -GTBacchus(talk) 18:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Someone else readded the disputed tag. Finding this page, I'm really not happy with it. Shouldn't it clearly be "Polling is a supplement to discussion?" to reflect actual practice? - Denny 15:38, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Historically, we worked a long time on this guideline, to try to reflect the competing viewpoints that (1) polling is often unhelpful and devisive, but (2) that it is sometimes used to test for concensus. (There are also some policy and guideline issues that relate to polling, especially WP:CONSENSUS). My guess is that people who hate polling find the current page too permissive, and people who love it find it too dicouraging towards polling.
I think you will have a hard time forming a consensus to move the page towards "polling is great," but guess we could discuss it. IMHO, the bottom line of the current page is that polls are (1) permissible but (2) should be used with caution and shouldn't be used to shout down a minority opinion or end discussion prematurely. Given that, my own policy has been to use polls (with caution) where I think they are appropriate, and I haven't had a problem. Thanks, TheronJ 15:45, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Denny, yes, or something like that. Or there should just be a page saying when you should and shouldn't use polling, and how to use it when you use it, and it should be named something like "Polling guidelines". Unfortunately some people treat this whole subject as a matter of ideology and not as a pragmatic issue of how Wikipedia works and should work. 6SJ7 15:50, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

So now I see the page is protected, with two conflicting tags, one saying this is a guideline, the other saying its status as a guideline is in dispute. Surely a non-viable combination, which at least for the moment is etched in stone. 6SJ7 16:15, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

You don't take down the guideline tag when the disputed tag is up. When the disputed tag is up, the page is still a guideline. -- Ned Scott 17:02, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Indeed. Furthermore, what we're having here is a disagreement over the wording of the page and not a disagreement over the page's "designation". Second, discussions about the wording of any guideline are quite common, and if such a discussion was grounds for immediate revocation of a guideline we'd have nothing left in CAT:G. And third, we're not having much of a disagreement either, because I don't see anybody here objecting to improving the wording. >Radiant< 11:11, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to clarify my own personal position on this page. It's a guideline, it has consensus. I'd like us to work on some of the wording in the guideline, but the logic behind it still stands. At least, that's how I feel about it. This whole dispute tag business is silly. -- Ned Scott 17:07, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Surveys can be a supplement to discussion

Wikipedia:Surveys can be a supplement to discussion? Current wording makes it sound like a dirty thing to be avoided, which can give just the loudest/most frequent voices on an issue authority, which is very bad, right? Just thinking aloud, I guess, based on my experience. Dropping that silly pre-poll poll on the ATT thing was the only thing that broke the deadlock to make any forward motion and cut out half the crap. Polling is used constantly in various degrees from quick what to do with this? to should we rename this page? to should we AfD this article? to should we make that guy an admin at RfA? Maybe that's the problem: Polling as the word. It's not voting, it's a survey. I renamed the lingo in places on the ATT thing to be say, specifically, survey. It's basically just discussion in a somewhat structured format. I think that renaming and a tweak in lingo to not make 'polling' sound like a dirty backroom thing, like a gallery of heroin shooters, would be more realistic based on what is actually happening across Wikipedia (whether some people like the current/traditional behavior of frequent polls or not). - Denny 15:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Note that ATT is the exception rather than the rule, and that we usually don't handle policy changes the way ATT was handled (it generated over three megabytes of discussion so far...) >Radiant< 16:00, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I think people read too much in some off-hand comments by Jimbo on the mailing list. *sigh* --Kim Bruning 16:10, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree with that statement, Kim. We'd be a lot better off if we start treating Jimbo like an extremely respected member of the community and stop doting on his every quote as if it were an appearance of a burning bush. Johntex\talk 16:32, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Yep. WP:JIMBOSAID is not a strong argument. >Radiant< 11:12, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fix {{main}} tag

Currently The policy and guidelines section uses{{main|WP:NOT|What Wikipedia is not}}, but this produces

Main articles: WP:NOT and What Wikipedia is not
, indicating that there are two separate articles, when in fact "What Wikipedia is not" links to the mainspace, which redirects to the same Wikipedia page as WP:NOT. The intended structure was probably {{main|WP:NOT|l1=What Wikipedia is not}} which produces
Main article: What Wikipedia is not
. (Although {{main|Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not|l1=What Wikipedia is not}} should probably be used to avoid the unnecessary redirect.) --YbborTSurvey! 22:10, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I've fixed it Ybbor; thanks for catching that. -GTBacchus(talk) 07:43, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] merge

I don't really care which title we go with, but the bulk of the content should be from this page, being the guideline. Take content from Wikipedia:Straw polls and propose it for inclusion with this, see what happens, and then we get one page that talks about polling instead of two. Editors should not be running off to another page in an attempt to "counter" a guideline.. that's how instructions creep happens. -- Ned Scott 09:00, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Seconded. It's confusing to have overlapping pages, and Wikispace is confusing enough as it is. Most of the relevant content is already here anyway (and changes/additions suggested a couple of sections up). As I recall this title was the agreed-upon compromise between "straw polls" and "voting is evil". >Radiant< 09:03, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Well I tend to see a need for two pages so that messages are not mixed/crossed and there is clarity for both. This is part of the problem that WP:ATT suffers from (inho) in that it is trying to do too much on one page. Let this page be about polling caveats and let the other be about how to actually conduct a poll. (→Netscott) 09:17, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
    • That's a false analogy. Verifiability is not the same thing as original research, but polling is obviously the same as polling. People get the wrong idea if they are told only half of the story. >Radiant< 09:43, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

This essay would benefit by pointing to real examples of polls, and elaborating on how the polls helped or hindered reaching consensus. Perhaps we could start by just coming up with a list of some of these polls on this talk page, and then discussing why they worked or didn't work and why. -- Samuel Wantman 09:53, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

What's your definition of a poll that has "worked"? (→Netscott) 09:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
The polls that built consensus on the 3RR were pretty successful. This poll helped gauge feelings on the 3RR when it was still in a fairly early stage. This poll, which took place after much more debate and drafting, cemented the consensus that had emerged during the discussions. --bainer (talk) 10:43, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move

This page was moved against consensus and should be moved back. Note that Netscott requested page protection first, then moved the page. This is very bad form. The old name was a long-discussed compromise, here. Older names included "Discuss, don't vote" and "Voting is evil". >Radiant< 12:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I did request the protection some time ago (08:15). There was no coordination on this. I've moved the page per WP:BRD. What the next logical step is to make a subsection entitled "Polling is not a substitute for discussion". Then like WP:ATT we can make shortcuts to individual sections. (→Netscott) 12:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I support the move. The page name should be helpful and descriptive, not ideological. If you want to give your opinion, make yours an essay, which PNSD always really was anyway. 6SJ7 13:00, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
So if guideline names should be descriptive and not ideological, we should move Wikipedia:No personal attacks to Wikipedia:Personal attacks, Wikipedia:No original research to Wikipedia:Original research, Wikipedia:Assume good faith to Wikipedia:Good faith: assume it or not, Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point to Wikipedia:Disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate a point... --Minderbinder 14:18, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
This is a strawman argument particularly as Wikipedia:Attribution/Poll is in effect. Polling is an integral part of the functioning of Wikipedia whether folks want to admit that or not. (→Netscott) 14:23, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Proof by assertion isn't. Got any evidence that polls are integral? So far the only thing you've pointed out is that we've had a couple dozen polls in the past five years (other than, yes, RFA/xFD/FAC) which should serve to indicate they're exceedingly uncommon. >Radiant< 14:31, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Why this delineation? What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Polling is happening (and yes that includes... all aspects of the project). (→Netscott) 14:40, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
    • So you agee that it is by no means integral, it is simply "happening" at times. >Radiant< 15:30, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Without polling we'd be forever discussing X deletions, X elections, X RfAs, X policies, and yes X guidelines so absolutely polling is integral to the functioning of the project. It is very incongruent to rely so heavily on polling for the function of the project and at the same time illogically tell people that "polling is evil". (→Netscott) 15:34, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
What's a strawman argument? The assertion was made that page names shouldn't be ideological. That seems to have no logical basis considering that many other policies and guidelines have names which are "ideological".
And I dispute your logic that polling is the reasons deletions and elections end. The reason we're not forever arguing over those isn't because of polling, but because policy allows an admin to interpret the discussion and close it with a result. Without the method of closing, those would go on forever, regardless if they were in the form of a discussion or a poll (as seen by the polls done that don't have a designated way of closing and go on forever). Along the same lines, there's no reason we couldn't take away the numbering/bullets and other "poll" looking aspects from RfA's, AfD and such, and they wouldn't go on forever, they'd be closed by an admin same as they are now. --Minderbinder 16:22, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Again, I ask where is the logic in this denial of the large amount of polling that is going on here everyday? Sure at the end of each poll there is an interpretive reading of it but none-the-less the interpreting is of a poll... (→Netscott) 16:37, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Again, your response has nothing to do with my comments. I didn't deny that "polling" goes on, I just disagree with the conclusion that the "poll" nature is the reason for it not "going on forever". --Minderbinder 16:51, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Well as I'm sure you are aware XfD, RfA, ArbCom, etc. polls do have a duration... am I missing something there? (→Netscott) 16:55, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes they do. So what's your point? --Minderbinder 17:00, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
When has a consensus discussion ever had a duration? Essentially all of that polling allows for determining the state of consensus there exists in an orderly and standardized format in a timely fashion... that is a good thing. (→Netscott) 17:09, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Editprotected request

The name of this page was decided by consensus as a compromise after long discussion, here. Netscott requested that the page be protected against edit warring; after this request, he kept edit warring anyway, which is very bad form, and minutes before the page was protected he moved the page away from the consensual compromise name to the name he preferred all along. I request that this bad-faith move be undone. >Radiant< 12:54, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes any admin is kindly requested to make a change from one wrong version to another. (→Netscott) 12:55, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
You mean from your personal version to the consensual version, yes. >Radiant< 12:56, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Again the move was made in accord with WP:BRD... completely normal. (→Netscott) 12:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Indeed, so the R is next, which is what is requested. Then we can discuss it, which you should have done to begin with. >Radiant< 13:01, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Netscott, you have been changing my edits by adding an image to the middle them, [2] and [3]. Such edits are considered disruptive. Do not do that again. You are welcome to add your own comments, but not to add images to the middle of what other people say. >Radiant< 13:10, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • In the middle? More like above... as in under the heading... nice way to "couch" this. (→Netscott) 13:18, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Netscott on the move of the page, if that wasn't clear already. Contrary to Radiant's comments, there never really was consensus about PNSD. And just to throw my 2 cents in about the "funny graphic", I don't think it's necessarily helping the situation. 6SJ7 13:24, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

It's illustrative of this request. That is why the image is there. It so accurately portrays what the situation is here. I agree with your other comments however... there was never really a consensus... more like a resignment. (→Netscott) 13:26, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Actually it isn't, because this issue is unrelated to the issue that caused the page to be protected. Anyway, if as you say there was no consensus to rename this to "PNSD", we could always go back to the original name Wikipedia:Discuss, don't vote. >Radiant< 13:27, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • As far as I am concerned, you can have "Discuss, don't vote" all you want -- as an essay. The guideline should have a neutral name. And, the lack of consensus was really more as to whether it should be a guideline than what the name should be, but this is a much better name. Also, there were still some "content issues" in the page that never got a consensus, like the ridiculous effort to tell people they shouldn't use the word "vote." 6SJ7 13:32, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
    • That would have been fixed by now if you had actually stated your concerns and helped in improving the page, rather than tag warring to deprecate it. >Radiant< 13:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • You were the one tag warring, not me, though apparently you got one of your clique members to warn me about it. As for my concerns, I find that doubtful. My main concern is that people should not be told not to use polling, rather they should be advised about when and how to use it. 6SJ7 14:23, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
    • Lovely violation of WP:KETTLE here. No, you have not been tag warring at all. >Radiant< 14:34, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
      • I have yet to see a case where accusing someone of a WP:KETTLE "violation" (what is this, Reno 911?) advanced a discussion. On point, it's not inconsistent to tell people they should avoid polling, and to provide guidelines on how to avoid doing it wrong when people inevitably do it. It's like telling teenagers to abstain from sex, but providing condoms and sex education anyway, because some of them are going to have sex.

        If we don't have WP:PNSD (or something like it), we imply that polling is encouraged, which is false, and if we don't have WP:STRAW (or something like it), we create a situation where people fall into the usual pitfalls over and over again because we fail to explain how to avoid them. We should embrace the contradiction of having one guideline saying not to do it, and another one saying how to do it. -GTBacchus(talk) 14:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

        • Rather, to avoid contradiction and confusion, we could have one guideline saying both not to do it in most cases, and telling how to do it in the cases where it is. Otherwise we'd get two contradictory guidelines and people arguing (and/or wikilawyering) over which one takes precedence. >Radiant< 15:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
          • I could see going either way. You've made the argument for consolidating the two into one; the argument for keeping them separate would be that each page could be more focused and say what it needs to say with a minimum of fuss. They actually have different spheres of application: one answers the question "when should we poll?", and the other answers the question, "having decided to poll, how do we best do it?". -GTBacchus(talk) 17:45, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Moved it back, since the title "Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion" is clearly the right one per previous discussions and per the actual content of the page. I really do hope this is not going to get any lamer, because it is pretty silly at this point. I am also minded to remove the disputed tag, since there is as far as I am aware no significant informed dissent from the view that in all but the most restricted of circumstances polling is no substitute for discussion. I can't think of one place offhand where we go by blind vote counting without assessing the merits of arguments put forward, though there may be such a place. Guy (Help!) 13:51, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Very improper move in light of the page's protection. Mine is not the only dissenting voice about this current title. (→Netscott) 13:53, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

So, one or two people get to decide this? It's madness! I have an idea, let's take a poll! 6SJ7 14:20, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Taking a poll on a page that is going to function as a guideline for polls is perfectly logical. (→Netscott) 14:31, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion

Saw this at WP:AN. Not attempting to wade into the discussion, but just offering a suggestion for a solution:

Hope this helps : ) - jc37 14:26, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

While I agree there is overlap between this page, WP:STRAW, and WP:Consensus, I don't agree with merging all of them together. Sometimes you want to link to a page that explains a very specific argument in a succinct manner. That's what this page should be doing.
I can see a place for WP:STRAW providing details on the best ways to avoid the pitfalls of polling when doing it. (It's kind of like harm reduction - you encourage people not to use heroin, but you provide clean needles.) The fact is, a lot of polling goes on around here, and it looks at first glance like voting, so why not have a page about it? That page can explain in detail that it isn't voting and how to make that clear and avoid the problems that come up with polling.
Both this page and WP:STRAW are related to consensus, and I could see the consensus policy having sections summarizing both, with {{mainarticle}} tags pointing to the more detailed pages, kind of like how WP:NAME is a policy with a lot of short sections summarizing guidelines that each provide more detail. -GTBacchus(talk) 14:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I was not suggesting that they all be merged together in a single article, but that what doesn't merge into WP:Consensus, be merged into an essay. - jc37 14:42, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I still disagree. I think a policy, plus two guidelines, is the way to go, for the reasons I stated above. -GTBacchus(talk) 14:51, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Jc37 -- subject of course to consensus as to what would actually be said at WP:Consensus. All the rest is essay. 6SJ7 14:40, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The purpose of guidelines is to describe good practices that we've developed. One of those good practices is avoiding polls in situations where we might be tempted to use them. Another one is figuring out less harmful ways to poll when we do it. Therefore, two guidelines. -GTBacchus(talk) 14:51, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
GTBacchus, I couldn't agree more wholeheartedly, one policy and two guidelines is perfectly logical. (→Netscott) 14:53, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
To me it is clear that polls are used to determine consensus where a decision MUST be made within some time period. In this context they are absoluely vital.
What is also clear is that this process is not necessary or helpful on articles.
However, what could be helpful on articles would be long established resolution techniques that involve mixed polling and discussion.
This guideline/essay does not firmly declare the value of polls for decision making as I recall. It mainly focuses on the unhelpfulness of using polls to push some majority position. And it is utterly silent on using polls to help develop consensus. This makes it a flawed writing. I think a huge amount of the problem on this page stems from the lack of clarity about what consensus really is per WP:CON. That page is the cause of troubles sometimes or at the very least is useless at resolving consensus issues. --Blue Tie 14:48, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I think the best thing this page could say is "Don't rush to use surveys; avoid them as much as possible for reasons A, B and C.... but if you really must use them, here's a link to WP:STRAW". -GTBacchus(talk) 15:04, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • There is a problem with that. It means that we would split the current guideline (which alerady covers both aspects, but needs a bit of rewording) into two half-guidelines, neither of which actually gives the full picture. In general we tend to centralize such pages to give the full picture, otherwise we would be confusing editors (who e.g. only learn how to poll and not when, or vice versa). That is why, for instance, our blocking policy explains both how to block people, and when to block people. There's no good reason for confusing people that way. >Radiant< 15:33, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Not a straw man, besides your counterexample of WP:NOT doesn't work due to the fact that most NOT items are covered in a few lines and not entire pages. (→Netscott) 15:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
    • Yep, a straw man, look up its meaning some time. If you want another example than WP:NOT, try WP:BLOCK which also covers e.g. unblocking. Note by the way that this page could easily be summarized in a few lines. >Radiant< 15:42, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • No, due to the fact that my statement has qualification. It appears that your reading of straw man needs a bit of brushing up. As to this page being summed in a few lines I think while that might be a noble direction to head in it is almost assuredly unworkable. (→Netscott) 15:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Both examples are interesting. WP:NOT reminds me of WP:NAME, where a lot of items that are detailed on separate pages are summarized in a list. There are differences, but they're both largish collections of related ideas. This case is about two ideas that are complementary to each other.

    I guess WP:V and WP:NOR are complementary to each other as well, but in a different way than PNSD and STRAW are. They're more like a "do" and a "don't" version of the same rule. Another similar pair is WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. The two we're talking about are also a "do" and a "don't", but they're opposed to each other, which is different from the V/NOR pair and the CIVIL/NPA pair.

    Radiant, I think you make a good case for combining the two into a single page about polling. Such a page would make it clear that polling is non-binding, does not obviate the need for discussion, creates polarization and hides potential compromises, inspires sock/meatpuppetry, and undermines WP:NOT a democracy by misleading casual observers. Then it would go on to explain that there are, at any given time, hundreds of polls running on Wikipedia to make decisions about renaming pages, deleting pages, merging categories, promoting admins, banning users, and occasionally about content. Finally, the page would give instructions on how to set up a survey in the least destructive way, and suggest when it would be the least inappropriate to do so.

    Is that what you're thinking of? -GTBacchus(talk) 01:31, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Pretty much, yes. >Radiant< 08:40, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
  • I think you just gave us a nice outline for what the merged page should look like and contain (starting with "Such a page...") - jc37 11:48, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with GTBacchus. I do not believe we should say to avoid surveys as much as possible. I think that the way we use them could be greatly improved but I do not think that we should declare that they are to be avoided. --Blue Tie 15:40, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Why? Do you think polling should be used more? -GTBacchus(talk) 01:31, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Rulers are not fingers. Rulers measure fingers.
Polls are not consensus. Polls measure consensus.

ruler should not be merged with finger
These pages should not be merged with Wikipedia:Consensus

;-)

--Kim Bruning 16:56, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

  • And also, slapping someone's fingers with a ruler hurts - and likewise, slapping a consensus with a poll hurts :) >Radiant< 08:40, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
  • And silly slogans and meaningless analogies do not help determine a good policy. 6SJ7 17:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The actual issue

There is a lot of confusion about this dispute, so let's look at what it's about.

Now the issue isn't that polling happens; nobody is denying that.

The issue isn't whether we should give suggestions on how to poll; nobody is denying that either. Note how this page already gives a screenful of such suggestions. Are these imperfect? Nobody is denying that either. But we can fix them.

Then why would we split them off to some other page? The answer is very simple. The people promoting this are largely the same people who object to the very idea of discouraging voting, and want this page deprecated. So they are trying to replace a page that discourages and explains voting, by a page that only explains voting but does not discourage anything.

But as we clearly know from article space, a disagreement over a page is not resolved by splitting the page into two "forks". First, this results in two contradictory pages, and second, this gives us two pages with disagreement on them. Rather than resolving the issue, this approach perpetuates it. So instead such issues are resolved through careful discussion on the talk page. You have suggestions for improving this page? Make them. That's how the wiki process works. >Radiant< 07:51, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes very nice way to assume bad faith about the motives of those working on Wikipedia:Straw polls. User:GTBacchus's idea that there should be one policy page and two guideline pages Wikipedia:Straw polls and Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion is perfectly logical. The only way what you are saying here will ever work is if the title is changed to be just Wikipedia:Polling and like WP:ATT have subsections of which Polling is not a substitute for discussion would be a subheading. I doubt you'd like that idea very much and if that is the case then that makes two of us. (→Netscott) 08:06, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
The idea of one guideline called WP:POLLING with subsections about PNSD and STRAW sounds pretty good to me. Is that really so awful? -GTBacchus(talk) 09:42, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
If Wikipedia:Straw polls and this page are to be merged then that is logical. (→Netscott) 09:47, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I suggested a merger of this page and Wikipedia:Straw polls to form a page entitled Wikipedia:Polling in October and again in December. I still advocate such a setup now. —David Levy 16:30, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

This is academic, as the page in question does not encourage voting. (as per the definitions provided). --Kim Bruning 11:53, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Hey, where did they go? Ok, as per the definitions now provided again, at least. %-/ --Kim Bruning 12:06, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
  • The problem with WP:POLLING is that we don't need it. Or rather, if we did, we could just make it a redirect to here. This page states the fact that it's best to discuss not vote. Yes, we also give guidance on how to poll. But if we are to have a merged page it must retain the overall message that polling is a very, very poor substitute for reasoned debate. Plus, every time we have a poll, Jimbo kills a kitten. We must not forget that. Think of the kittens. Guy (Help!) 20:57, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
    • -) No wonder this page got moved by you away from Wikipedia:Polling back to the name it currently is showing. This survey of surveys appears to refute the notion that we don't need it. (→Netscott) 21:05, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
    • Plus I wonder how many kittens Jimbo killed of his own accord (ie: without outside influence) in proposing this poll and this massive one? The kitten killing portion of your argument is falling flat. ;-) (→Netscott) 21:09, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
      • Seeing the edit summary of this in my watchlist made me spit, as I had a mental... vision of Jimbo chasing a kitten ala that Domokan web meme, waving his arms. - Denny (talk) 21:11, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
    • Guy (and others who disagree with a single guideline at WP:POLLING), what do you think of the rough outline I sketched in the section above, just above Radiant's reply "Pretty much, yes"? If that sounds like an appropriate description of the contents of a polling guideline, then the remaining disagreement is largely over the page's title, I think. Is that where we're standing? -GTBacchus(talk) 20:43, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../p/o/l/Wikipedia_talk%7EPolling_is_not_a_substitute_for_discussion_b5ad.html"