Wikipedia talk:Polish Wikipedians' notice board/Archive2

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Polish Wikipedians Notice board
| Talk Archive 1 | Talk Archive 2 | Talk Archive 3 | Talk Archive 4 | Talk Archive 5

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Contents

Improved 'to do'

Well, seeing as this place is - contrary to my early gloomy predictions - quite lively, I have decided to improve our 'to do' list (on the top of main page). I hope it is more useful now. Feel free (or compelled) to expand it. Also, note that we have quite a few articles which with little effort can be taken to the FA status (trust me, as a person with 10 FA under his belt, I can judge the article's quality :>). If any of you would like to work together with me and bring them up to FA quick, let me know. Otherwise, I'll do it myself, but it will take longer :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:29, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Update: Wikipedia:Peer_review/Virtuti_Militari. Please help me add references to this article! We can FAC it afterwards. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:14, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Ladnie rozbudowales liste. Chcialbym ponownie prosic wszystkie Panie i Panow na Polish Collaboration of the Week i o oddanie glosu, lub dodanie wlasnej propozycji do listy. Jezeli nie macie nic przeciwko, to w poniedzialek ustanowimy w imie kolektywu.. naszego kandydata.--Witkacy 02:11, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
...rowniez zapraszam do wpisywania ciekawostek o Polsce tutaj...--Witkacy 13:57, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Moze zainteresuje kogos te glosowanie: dzienniczek uwag, oddanie glosu z tendencja negatywna wobec propozycji kasowania tej strony, mile widziane :)--Witkacy 10:59, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Polish Collaboration of the week: Wawel

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Pope John Paul II

ATM I have to object, but as I wrote, it can be made a FA with some effort. May I suggest some of you drop the city names issue and instead help adress the objections to this article? I am sure our dear papież would approve. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 21:35, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"English translations"

The "English translations" appearing on this page, in response to a request, are without doubt the most abysmal that I have ever seen. Were they produced by a computer program? If English translations are called for in such a semi-private context (I have my doubts), then why not instead provide competent, concise English summaries? The current ungrammatical, unidiomatic Poglish hodge-podge is completely pointless, except perhaps as satire. logologist 10:20, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is not a semi-private area, this is a public space on the English wikipedia. English should be the primary language used. I have been assured that English will be used more and that translations will follow. I will be watching for them. As for Nohat's post of poltran.com's translations, its well intetioned but not particularly useful. -JCarriker 11:26, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
Indeed they're terrible. That's why I requested at the bottom of the discussion that they be cleaned. I honestly would like to know what the discussion is about, and the MT has provided only a fleeting glimpse. I implore anyone who speaks Polish to please clean them up and make them at the very least intelligible if not grammatically perfect. The poltran translations are intended to be a spur to overcome the inertia of the trying to translate an entire discussion. Nohat 16:15, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nohat, if you will look again at the discussion, you will find that some parts of this translation are already improved. Generally this discussion leads to working out common rules, which might be applied to similar cases in future. Proposition of the rules is below this discussion in a thread titled Propozycja. Please, feel free to share your opinion about the rules with us. --SylwiaS 16:41, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your assistance. Witkacy in particular seems to not use any diacritics in his Polish, which the translator appears to choke on. Even if you can't/don't want to provide complete translations of the comments, it would be very helpful if the untranslated Polish words could be replaced with approximate English translations. Thanks! Nohat 19:00, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Once again I ask all users of this page to use English. We are on English Wiki BY CHOICE, so let's abide by the standards here, ok guys? Instead of viewing non-Polish users as annoyance, I think it is much better to think of them as friends, who are likely to help us here and elsewhere. Positive thinking, people, is the key :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:26, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Slubowanie

Ten obraz przedstawia koronacje czy jakies "inne slubowanie"? --Witkacy 14:57, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Is this paintin shows coronation or some opther "oath"

Jest to powierz;enie Rzeczposolitej i jej narodów w opiekę Matki Boskiej (ogłoszenie jej Królową Polski) w obliczu Potopu Radomil talk 15:26, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It is enthrusting Mother of God with Rzeczpospolita and its nations (proclamation Her as Queen of Poland) during the Deluge
Dzieki.--Witkacy 22:52, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Thank's

Czy rzeczywiście

założenia tej encyklopedii stanowczo zabraniają używania innego języka oprócz angielskiego? Zdaje się, że jej centrala znajduje się w Stanach Zjednoczonych, gdzie kilkanaście lat temu sąd orzekł, że nie wolno zabraniać pracownikom u McDonalda mówienia po hiszpańsku tylko dlatego, że przełożeni i konsumenci ciekawi są, co pracownicy prywatnie mówią między sobą. logologist 06:45, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Translation: Do the assumptions of this encylopedia firmly forbid the use of any other language except English? It seems to me that its headquarters is located in the United States, where a dozen years ago a court ruled that it is not legal to prevent the workers of MacDonalds from speaking among themselves in Spanish only because their superiors and customers are curious what the workers are saying privately among themselves. logologist 06:45, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No rule, just convinience. When in Rome... See my post above. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 00:03, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It is a voluntary project, not a company, so the above situation does not apply here. And this is an English speaking project. If you don't want to speak English, simply join the Polish Wikipedia. Ausir 15:28, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

We speak English in the articles, but this is POLISH WIKIPEDIANS' NOTICE BOARD (duh!). Nothing interesting for non-Poles. Space Cadet 15:55, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Denmark, Russia, Quebec all have boards. All in English. Wikipedia does not exclude people who are interested in topics because of nationality. To do so would be discrimination. Surely you are not suggesting that?-JCarriker 16:12, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
Well, mentioning that other boards are in English is an argumentum ad populum fallacy. Please show a rule that there should be no articles in languages other than English on en.wikipedia.org. And nobody is excluding any nationality here. If someone is interested in Polish topics, he should learn Polish... --Akumiszcza 16:37, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The simplest solution to this problem is to find some page on Wikipedia where using Polish does not disturb the peace and does not contravene the rules, and transfer discussions in Polish there. I am sure there must be dozens of possibilities here, using someone's talk page for example is the first thing that comes to mind. Balcer 16:28, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I don't think using a user talk page would go over well. Creating a Polish mailing list for the collaboration, or perhaps a sister board, Polish Collaboration on the English wikipedia on pl.wikipedia? -JCarriker 16:33, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
I think it would be best if you let the non-Poles decide what is and isn't interesting to them instead of deciding for them by holding discussions in Polish and refusing to translate those discussions to English. Nohat 16:28, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I believe I might have created (unwillingly) this issue when pointing out at several talk pages to this board messages as an indication that several recent Minsk and Kiev changes (as of now reverted) were just WP:Point edits. This might have caught attention of several users involved in those disputes to this board who got frustrated finding the discussion is in Polish. However, I think the demands are rather overblown. If Polish editors wanted to have these discussion secret, they could have easily accomplished it on or off WP. Possibilities are abundant. Personally, I don't assume they would do that because, few misunderstandings aside, those communicating on these board are valuable contributors and are unquestionably ethical and good-faith editors. Yes, sometimes people loose their temper, so what? It happens with all editors and many active editors of all ethnicities received 24-h bans which works well to cool off the temper. Besides, the POV differences very often happen between the Polish editors and Russian or Ukrainian or Belorussian or Lithuanian editors. If the Polish side would want to discuss how to "conspire" and develop team plans on pushing certain views into the articles in questions, discussing them in such an open project, even EXCLUSIVELY in Polish, would not allow any "secrecy" because the editors from the above nations would be able to understand written Polish or at least get a general idea of what's going on.

So it seems obvious to me that Polish is used just out of convenience rather than to hide something. I think this is rather overblown. True, on other boards and projects editors communicate in English. Russian, Ukrainian boards and portals are exclusively in English. Personally, I would use English. But I don't think the hype about this issue is justified. -Irpen 19:06, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

Irpen, thank you for understanding. You are right, Polish was used just out of convenience. In fact just a week ago all talks here were in Polish. Since JCarriker asked us to use English, there is more English messages here now. But we didn't see it necessary to translate all what was said before, as many topics here are old now and not discussed anymore. However, as soon as Nohat told us that he was interested in the Minsk/Kiev discussion, authors of their posts started to translate them. It takes a while, I know, but almost everything there is translated now. There was really no bad will intended in using Polish. Also no one said that he would not translate. I understand that the “cities name” problem is live and I’m glad that Nohat and others are interested in looking for common solution. Regards --SylwiaS 21:30, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You're right the issue is over hyped. I origninally brought up the subject, when I noticed User names in the text other than the posters. That problem was not simply a linguistics problem and has since been corrected. Balcer has dilegenlty given his time to translating, but I believe we can only ask so much. The importance lies in encouraging English to be used here, as SylwiaS and Piotrus and others are doing by using it on the page, and thus encouraging others to do so as well. Dispite a few rude comments this discussion has been quite civil and productive on both sides. -JCarriker 21:44, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

As I wrote to Nohat in his talk page, this board is definitely more open than, lets say, the mailing lists. It is pretty clear that the mailing lists are not available to all the interested wikipedians, yet important decisions are taken there (that is outside of wikipedia). If people are allowed to discuss the wiki content outside of the... well... wiki content, then I see no problem with such discussions here in Wiki space being in Polish. After all at any time any user can request a translation or join in (which is not the case with mailing lists). Halibutt 02:05, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
Collaborations are open associatons for anyone who are interested in a topic, to use Polish exclusivley is to exclude people. I think it is unfortunate your OK with that. Poles have few friends on wikipedia, out side of your fatherland, friends it is necessary to have if your going to achieve your goals. You just lost one of your best. I'll be removing all Polish related topics from my watchlist, including Vilnius. I'm afraid you will find other wikipedians won't go so quitely. Good luck. -JCarriker 10:03, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
I support JC on this, as I wrote above. By using Polish we intentionally wall ourselves in our own little Polish-speaking ghetto. I, for one, am not interested in this - if I wanted to speak Polish, I'd be on Polish wiki, not here. I hope JC changes his mind, and I apologise to him and all of our English-speaking friends for the trouble. Please don't let this tiny problem, now mostly resolved, make you loose faith in us. The entire Polish-language-on-this-board issue is, for me, a technical matter, which has been mostly resolved now. Let the tempers cool and resume the constructive work, ok guys? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:51, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wycieczka?

I was thinking lately about organising some kind of meeting of those of us (i.e. en-wiki editors) in Poland. As just 'a meeting' seems rather tiring (and besides there is the pl:Wikipedia:Zlot_Wikimedian_z_Europy_Środkowej_i_Wschodniej), what do you think about some kind of a few-days trip? For example, to Wilno or Lwów or some other interesting place I bet most of us haven't been to (although some are fighting a wars in wikispace for it :D)? Or a 2-days trek in Polish mountains? Time - somewhere in July (I am definetly going to miss the offical meeting in August, as I won't be in Poland from 11th August till December). Anybody interested? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 00:01, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)


Seems interesting. Count me in (at least provisionally) Halibutt 02:02, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
Sounds great. Azalero 20:55, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Prawdopododobnie całe to spotkanie w Krakowie zdominuje sprawa ostatniego protesu i proponowanych zmian. Poza ty jeden ze zbanowanych wikipedystów (Kwiecień) zaczął już chyba nagonkę w prasie na temat cenzury, nierówności i przekraczania uprawnień przez adminów - więc może być gorąco....(tego spotkania raczej nie polecam osobom o słabych nerwach, ale nieoficjalne inicjatywy to co innego...:)). Vuvar1 14:47, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I am rarely fequenting Polish wiki, and their talk pages ever rarer - could you tell us more about this Kwieceń and other problems on pl wiki? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 15:12, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
sorki,że po polsku: Po pierwsze nie będe obiektywny, bo sam zaprzestałem kilka dni temu działalności na pl: Wiki. Sprawa ma się tak- od kwietnia zaczął tam działać gościu o tymże niku. Strasznie był on kontrowersyjny i nie stronił od ostrego języka, ale wkład miał ogromny jak na tak krótki czas. Admini zaczeli go banować, a temu w to graj... Ma dynamiczne IP i mogą mu "nask..." jak to mówił. Obie strony nie przebierały w wulgaryzmach szczególnie na liscie dyskusyjnej. Gościu ma obecnie kilkadziesiąt kont- zarówno wandalizujących (ataki na Tawa i Beno), jak i normalnych. Sytuacja się zaogniła jak dostał bez podania powodu (troche w tym racji jest) bana na 14 dni od Tawa. On stał sie terrorystą ,a Admini zaczęli też na niego polowanie i no i nowym się czasem (rzadko, bo rzadko) dostaje przez pomyłkę. 11 osób rozpoczęło protest, a to zostało średnio przyjęte przez zpołeczność. Ja już nie zmogłem. Oficjalna strona protestu została przeniesiona tu.Gościu ma też własnego bloga gdzie zjeżdza równo i przesadnie pl:Wiki. Podkreślam- nie jestem obiektywny! Vuvar1 15:29, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
And other POV: His contributoion was not so big. Most of his editons were in discusinons, containing mostly personal atacks, edit wars and so on. Group of Wikipedians want's to negotiate with this person, asking rest of them (or rather "us") to wait, and tolerate him for... few months. Actions of Kwiecień and his sock-puppets were such big problem, that many Wikipedists stop (or at least minimalise contributions) participating in project. This situation forced some administrators to defend wikipedia and ban all old and new sock-puppets of Kwiecień. After this small grup of contriutors that wanted to find "compromise" with troll started protest in defending of "freedom of word" (It is other POV which mayby helps You to find Yours POV or NPOV as You wish :) ) Radomil talk 19:35, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Consequence of Gdansk/Vote

See Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Fixing_giant_loopholes_in_Wikipedia:Survey_guidelines if you are interested in making sure that the Gdansk/Vote is fixed and new similar votes won't be disputable. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:37, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Proposed title change

Please take a look at the proposed title change for Camps in Poland during WWII article. --Ttyre 20:45, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think the best title is [Nazi Camps in Occupied Poland during WWII] - maybe it's too long, but it explains and embraces everything. Vuvar1 14:52, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dukes

I'm sorry that I put so many dukes into "to create/translate section", but I think this period of Polish history need to be realy developed (and we have quite good sources from pl: Wiki). Vuvar1 16:15, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

25 years after 1980

The 25th anniversary of the 1980 strikes which led to the creation of Solidarity is approaching. It would be a great moment to make Solidarity (or some other related article) into a Featured Article. We have about 2 months before the date, which should be plenty of time. Anybody else thinks this is a good idea? Balcer 02:49, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I second. Let's put it as PCTW first, the article is short. Still, looking at NO activity with Wawel, I am afraid there is going to be little collaboration. I wish people would stop playing those silly Polish city name/nationality wars and instead put those time into helping us with this article... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:24, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Narodowosc

Rydel z Czalexem po cichu dodaja w kolejnych artykulach "bialoruski watek".

  • Ignacy Hryniewiecki ktory krecil sie w polskich kolkach rewolucyjnych. Encyklopedia PWN mowi wyraznie "..car zginal 1881 na ulicy od bomby rzuconej przez Polaka (I. Hryniewieckiego);.."
  • Jan Karol Chodkiewicz ktorego rodzina prawdopodobnie pochodzila z Kijowa. Co wystarcza by dodac go do kategorii "szlachta bialoruska"... Nie mialbym nic przeciwko gdyby dodali go do kategorii "litewska", ale "bialoruska" to absurd.

--Witkacy 22:50, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Rydel zaczal rowniez wywalac polskie nazwy miast na: Orsza, Turaw, Mahilyow, Vitsebsk i u Kazimir Malevich--Witkacy 01:09, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Rod Hryniewieckich oczywiscie pochodzenia bialoruskiego. Jak odbywalo zasiedlenie Podlasia bylo to z dwoch stron - z Mazowia i z WKL. Przodkowie Hryniewieckich pochodzili z WKL, mowie o tym brzmienie ich nazwiska i pierwotnie wyznanie prawoslawne. Panstwo moze zapytac u osob, ktore zajmuje sie dziejami Podlasia. Rod Chodkiewiczow tez pochodzenia bialoruskiego. Prosze pamietac, ze pojecie narodowosci to pojecie bardzo pozniejszego czasu od tego, w ktorym istnial Jan Karol Chodkiewicz. W jezyku polskim jest prawidlowym napisanie bialoruskich miast w tym napisaniu, jak jest prawidlowe po-polsku. Ale dla czego to musi byc prawidlowe w angelskiej Wikipedji? "Nie mialbym nic przeciwko gdyby dodali go do kategorii "litewska", ale "bialoruska" to absurd." — To jest juz zupelna glupota. — 195.50.4.174 23:12, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
It was all discussed on Talk:Ignacy Domeyko. I reverted one of his changes, since he deletes a useful disambig (Persia to Persian Empire in Chodkiewicz), but as usuall, I am not going to waste my time on those revert wars. However, I would like to raise one question: did Bielorusian nationality exist in 17th century, or was it simply part of a Ruthenian one that developed individuality in 19th century? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 08:50, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Whose painting is this?

Juliusza Kossaka--Witkacy 16:27, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Januarego Suchodolskiego--Witkacy 16:35, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Juliusza Kossaka--Witkacy 16:35, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Emax uploaded it without a source, name or author info. One of Kossaks, perhaps? The third is Witkacy's upload. More to come. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:21, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Close to FAC

Virtuti Militari and History of Poland (1945-1989). Virtuti needs references, so I ask all of you who have contributed to it (Halibutt, especially) to provide them. I will nominate them to FAC soon, so if you want to make any final adjustments before the review process begins (PR was just archived), do so now, so voting is faster and supports more common. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:48, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wiki upgrade

Hurray! Gentlemen, recent upgrade of the wiki engine allows for moving all the articles that lack diacritics to their proper place! At last!

I believe that for the RoTW contributors we should always leave a redirect from non-diacritical version to the proper one. Other than that, at last Piłsudski and Radziwiłł are where they should be from the beginning. Halibutt June 28, 2005 11:12 (UTC)

Moving an article makes an automatic redirect from non-diacritical version, so it's a bit easier. BTW, I think someone should make a bot or something to change the html characters into normal (unicode?) characters in the text. The editing would be easier in the future. --Akumiszcza 28 June 2005 12:15 (UTC)
After moving only thing to do is to check out and correct redirects that leads to redirect Radomil talk 28 June 2005 13:45 (UTC)

BTW, look at Talk:Gdansk. The article name was Gdańsk and it was ok... Now the title can be changed to Gdańsk and some opposition appeared. Well, my home city is a controversial one :-) --Akumiszcza 28 June 2005 18:49 (UTC)

To preserve history of edits, it's better to move the page instead of copy the paste. However, if there alraedy is an article with old name (for example, a redirect) it must be deleted, beacuse move function works only if there is no page with the target name. As I am an admin, I will be happy to move stuff, just list exactly what should be moved to where, and make sure there are no objections at talk. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 28 June 2005 19:50 (UTC)

Comment please

At Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/History_of_Poland_(1945-1989). We have 3 objects now and 0 support. Please comment as you see fit and help me improve the article - especially as I think current objections are minor or irrelevant. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 28 June 2005 19:40 (UTC)

Renomination: Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/History of Poland (1945-1989). C'mon, voting isn't that hard, is it? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 4 July 2005 11:33 (UTC)

Nazewnictwo

Proszę o opinie w sprawie ujednoliceia nazwenictwa powiatów , bo obecnie mamy 2 modele X County (zdecydowanie dominujący) oraz Powiat of X- trzeba zdecydować jak ma być. Ja sam skłaniam się do wersji z County, ale można stworzyć redirecty z Powiat of X. Obecnie wygląda to tak. Jeszcze raz proszę o sugestie! Pozdrawiam! Vuvar1 29 June 2005 10:44 (UTC)

Ja bym byl za uzywaniem Powiat (szczegolnie ze niema dokladnego odpowiednika, czasem jest tlumaczony jako County a czasem jako District) - ale raczej w krotkiej formie jak na tej stronie http://www.powiat-gniezno.pl/en/ Gniezno Powiat--Witkacy 29 June 2005 13:36 (UTC)
Ukraińcy np. zostali przy swoich rejonach (w formie: X Raion). Vuvar1 29 June 2005 13:57 (UTC)
County to po polsku hrabstwo, więc nie jest to poprawne przetłumaczenie. Z drugiej strony wiele angielskich internetowych stron polskich powiatów ma county [1] [2]. Sam już nie wiem. Czy jest jakaś oficjalna zasada na ten temat? Balcer 29 June 2005 16:11 (UTC)
Please use English. See Talk:Voivodships of Poland for some related arguments. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 29 June 2005 18:29 (UTC)
OK- If we have Voivodship and gmina ("Those tranlations are recommended by Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs as recommended terminology"), propably it should be powiat (per analogiam) :).So, is X Powiat acceptable? Vuvar1 29 June 2005 19:05 (UTC)
I prefer Powiat of XXX over Powiat XXX and XXX Powiat, but I guess it's simply a matter of style and agreement between us. Halibutt June 30, 2005 13:36 (UTC)
I agree with Halibut. Powiat of XXX sounds best and it's more difficult to make a mistake and call it Powiat gnieźnieźnieński instead of Powiat Gniezno. --Akumiszcza 30 June 2005 14:16 (UTC)
OK. Should I move them to X Powiat or wait for more opinions? Vuvar1 2 July 2005 15:15 (UTC)

Gmina

On a slightly different topic - I'd oppose creation of a zillion of articles on gminas. I guess it would be much easier to describe those entities in articles on towns. Halibutt June 30, 2005 13:36 (UTC)

Not zillion articles about gminas, but only 2500. It is not so big number (and this is the far, far future). Vuvar1 30 June 2005 15:16 (UTC)
Well, 2500 is still much, especially when you add all the former gminas. Also, most of the articles on a gmina would consist mostly of the info that should also be found in an article on the town or a central village. Which makes most of such articles pretty obsolete to me (see Ockham's razor). Halibutt June 30, 2005 15:57 (UTC)
I can say that you are right, but only for 2-3 years :) Vuvar1 1 July 2005 14:29 (UTC)

Voting

Just in case you didn't notice it, there's yet another voting at Talk:Gdansk... Halibutt June 29, 2005 10:46 (UTC)

Also, take a look at this voting: Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(use_English)#Proposal_2. It should be pretty essential for the whole Polish community here. Halibutt June 30, 2005 10:46 (UTC)
And Wikipedia:Naming conflict, new policy proposal. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 2 July 2005 12:17 (UTC)

Justice

Finally, something has started to move at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Zivinbudas/Proposed decision. I admit that the current 2:0 for User:Zivinbudas is banned for one year is music to my ears :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 30 June 2005 12:47 (UTC)

Well, not much move, but still... Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that Z. has finally given up.. Halibutt June 30, 2005 13:32 (UTC)
Hmm, it is true I have not seen him vandalise anything lately. I am unprotecting Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth for a test period. If nothing happens, we may try unprotecting Lithuania and Wilno articles and others. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 30 June 2005 14:37 (UTC)

Anti-Polonism

Zerknicie na ten artykul - nie spodobal sie niektorym osobom ... --Witkacy 4 July 2005 21:41 (UTC)

Translation: Please take a look at that article - some people do not like it ...

Zapraszam do zabawy hipokrytow Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Anti-Polonism--Witkacy 4 July 2005 21:49 (UTC)

Translation: I invite you to the "game/party" of the hypocrites...

No big surprise there. At the time that article was created I was against it, since the term Anti-Polonism is non-existent in English, and it is not the job of Wikipedia to promote new words, however justified they might be. Still, the article remained obscure, so I left it alone (disccouraged by nasty personal attacks by one Polish user/troll who has since left). In recent days Witkacy started linking the article or its related category all over the place, and now we are seeing a predictable backlash from the Wikipedia community. Unfortunately, I suspect the vote for deletion will be overwhelming. Balcer 4 July 2005 21:54 (UTC)
It is a big suprise.... Nobody try to delete Anglophobia, Anti-Arabism, Anti-Semitist, Anti-French sentiment in the United States, Anti-American sentiment ect. is racism towards Poles something special?--Witkacy 4 July 2005 22:02 (UTC)
I would have no problem with Anti-Polish sentiment as a title. Anything that is intelligible and easy to understand for a typical user of English Wikipedia would be fine. Antipolonism is almost never used in English. Plus it is unfortunately a word loaded with implicit POV, given the way it is used in Poland. Balcer 4 July 2005 22:27 (UTC)
First of all, the voting is about the article at all, not about the name. Is Anti-Polonism not intelligible and easy to understand for a typical user of English Wikipedia? Balcer nie zastanawiales sie dlaczego inne tego typu artykuly nie sa podawane do kasacji? Nie zostal dodany przez nazwe... --Witkacy 4 July 2005 23:08 (UTC)
"Rename" is a valid option when voting for deletion. In fact, I hope it offers a compromise solution. Look, even if the word anti-polonism was not a neologism, I would still personally prefer to avoid using it, given its popularity among people writing books like this. As for the other articles, I can only say that one bad article does not justify another one. Unfortunately, Wikipedia is full of bad or inadequate articles. Balcer 4 July 2005 23:31 (UTC)
Zwroc uwage na powod: "What's here can mostly be incorporated into Polish September Campaign, Holocaust, History of Poland, and Ethnic slurs. Even after the cleanup by Jayjg, it remains absurdly POV. The rest of it needs to go, as it's little more than uncited WP:NOR and a magnet for POV-pushers" - nazwa ma tu najmniej do znaczenia. W koncu to encyklopedia, wiec dlaczego Anglik ma nie wiedziec co to Antypolonizm, skoro jest uzywany w jego jezyku? W tego uzytkownika mniemaniu morderstwa i szyderstwa wobec Polakow to POV ... :) Jednak tylko polski artykul wzbudza zainteresowanie inne anty- juz nie - dlaczego? Odpowiedz powinna byc dopisana do artykulu :)--Witkacy 4 July 2005 23:53 (UTC)
Witkacy, would you be able not to use Polish language on English WP ? It is considered to be impolite by some, particularly those, who do not know the language. Thanks. --Lysy (talk) 5 July 2005 08:49 (UTC)

I really would be far from thinking that the fact that the word is used by some right-wing parties in Poland affects non-Poles at any way. Moreover, I think that the effort here should be focused on writing an objective article without caring what the parties might say. --SylwiaS 5 July 2005 00:40 (UTC)

Unfortunately, some words have an agenda behind them, and they are inherently non-neutral. Take a look at another example in what circumstances this word is often used (and here). Don't you find it curious that the concepts of anti-semitism and anti-polonism somehow seem to run together in these publications?
Finally, let me add a quote by Jerzy Turowicz from this article, which explains the issue well (I will translate this if someone requests it):
Oczywiście Ojciec Święty odróżnia antysemityzm od antyjudaizmu. Antyjudaizm dotyczy płaszczyzny ściśle religijnej. Antysemityzm może być także rasistowski, niemniej jednak faktem jest, że ma pewne chrześcijańskie korzenie -- i temu Ojciec Święty nie przeczy. Oskarżenia o Bogobójstwo, katechizacja z tak zwanym "nauczaniem pogardy", to właśnie chrześcijańskie korzenie antysemityzmu. Dlatego też jest dużo do zrobienia w Polsce, gdzie badania opinii społecznej wykazują, że duży procent ludzi uważa, że Żydzi dzisiaj rządzą krajem, co jest absurdem. Żydów było 3,5 mln przed wojną, a dzisiaj jest ich kilka tysięcy. Są Polacy, którzy lubią usprawiedliwiać antysemityzm antypolonizmem środowisk żydowskich. To jest zupełnie błędne postawienie sprawy, bo antypolonizm jest skutkiem antysemityzmu. Antypolonizm jest nieraz krzywdzący i niesprawiedliwy, ale jest wynikiem tego, że rodzice czy dziadkowie Żydów, urodzonych w Ameryce, którzy przyjechali tam z Polski i przywieźli swoje doświadczenia, byli ofiarami tego antysemityzmu. Pogromy, dyskryminacja, niechęć na uniwersytetach -- oni ten bagaż ze sobą przywieźli i on w reakcji powoduje antypolonizm, więc tego nie można stawiać na równi. Balcer 5 July 2005 17:12 (UTC)

Another relevant passage, from here:

Poszukiwanie za wszelką cenę symetrii cierpień, naginanie rzeczywistości do tego samego wymiaru zniszczenia narodu, przyczyniło się do ukucia terminu „antypolonizm” jako odpowiednika „antysemityzmu”. Mają to być zjawiska równorzędne i warte siebie. Ksiądz Michał Czajkowski mówił: „Zawsze podkreślam, że nie można stawiać na równi antypolonizmu i antysemityzmu. Tu nie ma symetrii. Żydowski antypolonizm nikogo nie zabił. Antysemityzm zabił miliony” (Artur Domosławski, „Spowiedź Kościoła”, „Gazeta Wyborcza” z 16-17 IX 2000). Nie da się też sprawy załatwić w sposób następujący: my – was, wy – nas. My mieliśmy być pomocnikami hitlerowskich katów, ale wy gnoiliście nas w ubeckich kazamatach. My antysemici, lecz wy – stalinowcy. Balcer 5 July 2005 17:17 (UTC)

Finally, see this link. I quote it here in full:

Byłem na wykładzie prof. Jerzego Roberta Nowaka, który przyjechał do parafii na zaproszenie naszego proboszcza. Gdy znajomi pytają mnie, o czym było spotkanie, odpowiadam, że o Żydach. Dowiedziałem się, że oni są odpowiedzialni za nasze niepowodzenia, także przyszłe. Chyba że zrobimy z nimi porządek (może wywieziemy na Madagaskar, jak głosiły napisy na murach w moim mieście dwadzieścia parę lat temu?). Profesor stwierdził, że w Polsce nie ma antysemityzmu tylko antypolonizm. Tak wielki, że sięga korzeniami całego świata, o czym świadczą liczne przykłady dostarczane mu przez słuchaczy i czytelników. Szerzą go wszędzie obecni Żydzi. Każdemu narodowi dostało się po trochu, poza Prawdziwymi Polakami-Katolikami (prof. Nowak osobiście decyduje, kto do tej grupy należy).

Siedziałem w kącie i przygotowywałem kontrargumenty, gdy do głosu doszła publiczność. Zdrętwiałem: tezy Nowaka są akceptowane nie w 100, ale w 200 proc.! Ludzie urządzili słowną krucjatę przeciwko Żydom, wykupującym nas Niemcom, szkodnikom Polski... przeciwko całemu światu, który nic innego nie robi, tylko szkodzi Polsce. Próbując trzeźwo ocenić sytuację, doszedłem do wniosku, że jestem Żydem-antypolonistą! W sali wrzało. Prof. Nowak prosił, aby nie mówić, że za wszystko odpowiedzialni są Żydzi, tylko wskazywać, który konkretny Żyd. Posypały się nazwiska, tytuły gazet, nazwy partii politycznych, fundacji i organizacji. Większość tytułów można znaleźć w moim domu, są moimi ulubionymi albo przynajmniej takimi, po które sięgam, słucham ich, z którymi sympatyzuję. Okazało się, że należy czytać jedynie „Niedzielę”, „Nasz Dziennik” i słuchać Radia Maryja. Reszty plugastwa nawet nie dotykać. [...]

Bacler..., jak narazie, to nawet nie zostal stworzony watek antpolonizmu wsrod Zydow w artykule... Nie zgadzam sie rowniez z Turowicza zdaniem, bo niby co ma wspolnego szkalowanie Polakow na granicach, w Stanach czy w Europie zachodniej lub pomysl Niemcow wyniszczenia calego narodu polskiego z antysemityzmem? Wiec 852,000 (sic!) stron ktore zawieraja w google slowo "polish jokes" tez jest skutkiem antysemityzmu? A Meta How to deal with Poles, rowniez? :) A tak na marginesie w polskim MSZ powstal katalog antypolonizmow http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Katalog+antypolonizm%C3%B3w+mSZ A Rotfeld stwierdzil ze bedzie wpieral kazda organizacje ktora zajmie sie walka ze szkalowaniem Polski--Witkacy 5 July 2005 17:32 (UTC)
Lot's of interesting material. Instead of translating it here, I would ask you to add the relevant section to the AP article itself, describing its abuse (?) by far-right nationalistic parties in Poland. Note also that most far-right nationalistic parties, no matter what country they come from, use similar aguments, dividing the world between 'us' and 'them'. This, however, should not discredit the concept - just as, for example, social darwinism should not discredit social evolutionism. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 5 July 2005 18:02 (UTC)
I admit that maybe I am being oversensitive on this whole issue. I can see now some evidence that, as language evolves, the term anti-polonism appears to be coming into wider use, at least in Polish. Come to think of it, if we make the article about it balanced and rational, discuss how the very formulation of the idea of antipolonism is still a work in progress, plus include some discussion of the way the term is misused by some groups, then it might become a very useful article. Balcer 5 July 2005 19:00 (UTC)
  • What I wanted to say, but couldn't do it properly in English was: Nie dajmy się zwariować. I know that there are biased media but it doesn't mean that I have to waste my time and learn their opinion or bother to search for words that are not ill used by them. I think those people deserve nothing but being ignored. There is not a problem with the word itself only with their POV. Paying them attention I would only do them a favour, so what's the point? I believe that the article here will be as balanced as possible, because our goal is to show the real problem, not the alleged one. So maybe it's even better that we'll use the same word, as some people might want to confront the biased opinions with Wikipedia. I think it's a good idea to additionally show how the word is misused, but I would be careful here as well not to spoil the main object of the article. To quote once more a Polish phrase: Krowa, która dużo ryczy... I think that the main problem with them is that they are making a big fuss, not that they are very popular or influential. We just don't like them, are ashamed of them, so they irritate us more and because of that are more visible for us, but still it doesn't mean that e.g. nationalist parties have any serious chances in elections etc., which shows real support of people. --SylwiaS 5 July 2005 20:31 (UTC)
I'm afraid your view of the question may be somewhat too optimistic. I suggest you take a look at the latest report by the Council of Europe and its Commission Against Racism and Intolerance (link to report), especially the special chapter Konieczność walki z antysemityzmem w Polsce. Balcer 5 July 2005 22:05 (UTC)
""Wspomniany raport powołując się na pojedyncze przypadki - w sposób naszym zdaniem nieuzasadniony - może wywoływać u czytelników obraz Polski jako państwa dość powszechnego antysemityzmu. Zawiera ponadto krytyczne oceny odnoszące się do sytuacji Romów w naszym kraju. Taki sposób prezentacji wywołał prawdziwe zdumienie, a nawet oburzenie zarówno w środowiskach żydowskich i romskich w Polsce" - czytamy m.in. w liście."
http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/1118517,11,item.html
"Z kolei przewodniczący Związku Gmin Żydowskich w Polsce, Jerzy Kichler, powiedział PAP, że w ostatnich dwóch latach nie było w Polsce żadnych poważnych incydentów antyżydowskich. Był zdziwiony danymi przytaczanymi przez "Le Figaro", że Polska przoduje w liczbie wystąpień antysemickich w Europie Wschodniej.
"Nie znam takich statystyk, ale Polska zdecydowanie plasuje się w ich dolnej strefie. Wystarczy przejść się ulicami w Polsce" - powiedział Kichler.""--Witkacy 9 July 2005 14:31 (UTC)
http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/1111879,12,item.html
"Według znanych mi statystyk, z danych sprzed kilku miesięcy, to Francja przoduje w ilości szeroko rozumianych incydentów antyżydowskich. Właśnie dlatego, że sytuacja we Francji jest bardzo niepokojąca - w Paryżu ma się odbyć posiedzenie światowego Kongresu Żydów. Kolejnym krajem w tej statystyce jest Austria" - powiedział Kichler.
Jego zdaniem, w Polsce z punktu widzenia liczby przypadków i dynamiki zjawiska nastąpił znaczny spadek tego rodzaju incydentów. "W ciągu ostatnich dwóch lat poważnych incydentów w Polsce nie było, może poza kilkoma uszkodzeniami nagrobków na cmentarzach" - dodał.
"Dlatego jestem zdziwiony tego rodzajem raportu OBWE, chyba że ktoś do własnych politycznych celów chce używać naciąganych badań statystycznych" - powiedział PAP Kichler.
http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/1111628,11,item.html--Witkacy 9 July 2005 14:37 (UTC)


Thanks. Actually I read the report earlier. I also read that our government protested the report as too exaggerated in its opinion about the situation in Poland. That's why I looked for another source which would compare the situation in Poland to other countries. Of course I don't say that what is now is a perfectly acceptable situation, but I also don't think we should be harsher to ourselves than other countries are to themselves writing encyclopedia, unless we want to give more arguments to those who are already biased against us. Anyhow I think that the discussion is a bit futile now as there is not a ready text to discuss and at the end it may appear that we are in fact in an agreement about what should be written there and all our concerns were premature. --SylwiaS 6 July 2005 23:11 (UTC)

Sylvia, the authoritative source on anti-Semitism around the world is ADL: US, international. Balcer, please try to see beyond Poland and Polish perspective if you can... Remember that in the US KKK demonstrations (once they secure the proper permit) are protected by local police force and the ACLU makes sure that white supremacists' right to free speech is not violated. --Ttyre 7 July 2005 00:57 (UTC)

Thanks. It seems that what I found before was copied from this site, but this site is a much better source. BTW I've just read there among others that 88% of Americans think that Holocaust should be taught at schools. Oh my, does it mean it is not?! --SylwiaS 7 July 2005 03:52 (UTC)

Many, if not most States, have legislated a requirement to include Holocaust education in public elementary, middle, and high schools. For that purpose some States e.g. Florida, have defined the term Holocaust more narrowly as mostly Jewish experience (see A Teacher's Guide to the Holocaust), while others, e.g. California, expanded it to include teaching about other genocides, as well as human rights and tolerance (see California Center for Excellence website). These two programs offer quite a mixed bag: e.g. Florida program's online guide includes some information about the Poles [3], yet it fails to even mention Zegota or efforts of Polish Government in Exile. It used to have a map (now only the title of the page - see top left corner) titled "Polish Death Camps" [4] and has these pages (if you wonder to know who were the Nazis): [5], [6], [7], [8]. California's project, on the other hand, doesn't include Poland on their list of genocides [9], and doesn't list any Poland/Polish-related websites [10] either. However, if you would dig into their PDF materials, you would find a 2-page write-up about Polish WWII experience. This has been included there due to a successful lawsuit brought against the State of California by local Polonia many years ago. --Ttyre 7 July 2005 11:05 (UTC)
Ttyre, I looked through the links and I really don’t know what to say. I certainly didn’t expect that. I’m seriously wondering if something can be done with it? Maybe it would help if we send the links to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs? Any other ideas, anyone? On the other hand, at least I better understand now some latest comments on Wiki about Poles. I can see that their authors don’t intend to particularly hurt us, they just believe that they are right. Apart from the Polish case, what I find highly appalling, is the form in which Holocaust is presented there. The most complex human sufferance ever is showed mostly by several events and numbers. That explains, why something as unique as Holocaust, which was first of all an unprecedented agony of many individuals, where every personal history is different and no one’s own experience can be compared to another, is often turned into contest of numbers. --SylwiaS 8 July 2005 16:46 (UTC)
No question there is plenty of anti-Polish bias out there, especially outside the mainstream media (which does have some minimal standards). Take a look, for example, at a recent article about the March of the Living in Poland [11] (just click OK on the java mini-window, and it will work). And then something a bit older, but even more silly link. So, I do not dispute the fact that we have to fight anti-Polish bias. I am just not sure that an article like anti-Polonism, with all its "baggage", so to speak, is the best way to do it. Balcer 8 July 2005 16:58 (UTC)
Very silly, indeed. I will assume that, especially the second one, was wrote by someone as prejudiced as some of our right-wing people. --SylwiaS 9 July 2005 12:06 (UTC)

Prosze cos na deser Anti-Semitism in Poland artykul ktory zostal stworzony przez neo-nazistke helge - Tak wyglada sytuacja w Polsce :) (na marginesie, nie istnieja inne artykuly, jak np Antysemityzm w Niemczech itd.). --Witkacy 22:59, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Tylko spokojnie, to artykuł napisany dzisiaj (10 lipca) przez jednego anonima z poważnymi problemami psychicznymi. Na pewno nie odzwierciedla ogólnego klimatu panującego na Wikipedii. Zresztą już w tej chwili jest usuwany. Nawet jeśli zostanie, na pewno nie będzie w formie której jest obecnie. Balcer 23:10, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Jak narazie sa same glosy na zostawienie.--Witkacy 23:12, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Bo sam jeszcze nie zagłosowałeś :). Atrykuł jest na vfd na razie tylko 30 minut, daj ludziom szansę. Balcer 23:22, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Wlasnie daje ludziom szanse i sam nie zaglosuje ;) redirect moim zdaniem nie jest dobrym rozwiazaniem ze wzgledu na to kto zakladal ten artykul (w jakim celu) i ze nikt wczesniej nie wpadl na pomysl by stworzyc taki redirect bynajmniej do Niemiec.--Witkacy 23:29, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Category

See Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion#Category:Anti-Polonism. I have to admit that IZAK managed to cross the line this time, I think, by stating: This category should be deleted because it is an insult to human intelligence.. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 6 July 2005 14:35 (UTC)

Comment on History of Jews in Poland

In IZAK-releated news, I'd appreciate comments at Talk:History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland#Article_division, where IZAK seems bent on DELETING the article (!) splitting it into subarticles instead of summarising, arguing that There is no need to have this become a "FA", as that matters little about its encyclopedic value. More comments on this would be welcomed, especially as I would like for this article to be FACed soon (just need to upload some more pics and summarise a little). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 6 July 2005 14:35 (UTC)

Polish Intelligence in World War II

More to do :). A new report on the contribution of Polish Intelligence services to the Allied war effort just came out. ( see article in Polish). A joint British-Polish commission carefully studied this issue and came to interesting conclusions. For example, 44% of the information British intelligence received from agents on the ground in occupied Europe came from Polish agents. We need an article about the work of this commission. Any suggestions as to the title? Balcer 4 July 2005 21:44 (UTC)

Sure. Let's fix the deleted copyvio of History of Polish Intelligence Services. It was deleted for being a copy of [12], but I am sure we can rewrite this incoprorating info from other sources, including your article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 4 July 2005 21:52 (UTC)
Zacząłem. :) Halibutt July 5, 2005 09:04 (UTC)
Great. By the way, it seems that the British are on some kind of charm offensive lately. Take a look at this article. It appears that Polish veterans will lead the upcoming 50th anniversary victory parade in London, in atonement for their exclusion from the great victory parade in 1946. Balcer 5 July 2005 20:47 (UTC)
Now that's a pleasant suprise. This is the article about the '46 parade for reference. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 5 July 2005 21:00 (UTC)

Featured pic

Another interesting voting

Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/WikiProject_Addressing_Anti-Jewish_Bias --Ttyre 5 July 2005 15:56 (UTC)

PLCOTW update

I updated the PLCOTW since its been more than a month. The newe PLCOTW is Mikolaj Rej. Falphin 6 July 2005 00:27 (UTC)

[13] Some information about Rej to rewrite.
[14] The History of Polish Literature in google print. Pages 56-60 available after log in. Azalero 6 July 2005 10:08 (UTC)
[15] (Polish)
[16] (Polish)
[17] (Polish)--Witkacy 6 July 2005 14:27 (UTC)

I am very dissapointed in the PCOTW progress. Except for my first major edit (which involved mostly merging subarticles into one main article), almost nothing happened during the COTW process :( --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 6 July 2005 14:41 (UTC)

If it wasn't for both of my computers breaking almost at the same time... Halibutt July 6, 2005 15:55 (UTC)
I intend on helping with this one although I will be gone after the 12th. I didn't contribute to the last one because I'm not familiar with Wawel at all. Falphin 7 July 2005 18:35 (UTC)

WWII atrocities in Poland

World_War_II_atrocities_in_Poland article needs major overhaul - see discussion. Just added extermination of the psychiatric patients section. --Ttyre 9 July 2005 03:18 (UTC)

Not out of place to the above post, I would appreciate if moderate members of this board take a look at discussion at talk:Ukrainian Insurgent Army. There is what seems to be a good-willing but novice editor too quick to jump on accusations. Maybe someone can try to have the article incorporate his ideas and cool him down a little bit too. Goes without saying that extra care is needed with this controversial topic. Regards, --Irpen 19:36, July 9, 2005 (UTC)

Virtuti Militari

On FAC - comments welcomed. It is not that hard to read it and support/object, is it? Please. Also, help appreciated with finding more images of the VM order to article (i.e. upload and link), and clarify who painted this 'Emax' picture: --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 9 July 2005 17:58 (UTC)

Jozef Poniatowski
Jozef Poniatowski
'Szarża kawalerii'
'Szarża kawalerii'
'Wieszanie zdrajców'
'Wieszanie zdrajców'

Poland copyvio - what a shame

Please help rewrite Poland#Economy, which is a copyvio of CIA Factbook on Polish economy. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 09:06, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Anti-Semitism in Poland

Please vote: Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Anti-Semitism_in_Poland. --Ttyre 00:22, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Invitation

I hope you don't mind if I write this here. Halibutt pointed me to this page. Some people from the German Wikipedia had the idea to set up a German-Polish meetup on the island of Uznam/Usedom in the end of August. We already posted invitations to the wikipl list, on the Polish Wikipedia and in the wikipl chat but up to now the reaction is quite low. I hope many of you like this proposal and are as curious as we are to get to know the Wikipedians from the other side of the border. If you are interested, I would be happy to see your name added here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Treffen_der_Wikipedianer_auf_Usedom/Spotkanie_Wikipedystów_na_Uznam.

This is the text as it was posted by Sicherlich:

Witajcie Wikipedyści, zapraszamy na Spotkanie Wikipedystów na Uznam! Spotkanie odbędzie się 27/28. sierpnia! Koszt uczestnictwa to 6 EUR za noc i osobę na kempingu (12EUR z prowiantem). Wieczorem możliwy grill. Jeśli jesteś zainteresowany: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Treffe_der_Wikipedianer/Usedom. Można pisać po angelsku lub po niemecku! .. Jeśli nie mówisz w żadnym z tych języków to spróbuj po polsku! ;) .. Jeśli zrozumiem będę tłumaczyć. Proszę szybko odpowiedzieć bo chcęmy rezerwować! ;) Na ra Sicherlich
We hope to see many of you in the end of August ;-) -- Baldhur
Why do all Wikipedian meetings in Europe ave to happen just as I go to another continent... :( --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:48, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Voting on 2 pics at Featured Pictures - Commons

See Commons:Commons:Featured_picture_candidates: Image:Jan Matejko-Astronomer Copernicus-Conversation with God.jpg and Image:Rzeczpospolita voivodships.png . Feel free to vote. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:40, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Zvinbudas is back, but not for long

Be warned and ready: Zvinbudas contribs. On the bright sude, ArbCom should have a final decision soon, and so far there is a consensus for outlaw&ban. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:29, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Good Lord, when will this crap finally end? Halibutt 17:26, July 17, 2005 (UTC)
Which one? :> --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 18:30, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

It is final. He is banned for one year. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:04, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Wczoraj Messerschmitem przylecial nas odwiedzic :)--Witkacy 15:16, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Anyone planning to visit the museum?

I am working to try and bring Makuria up to Featured Article level. It still needs a lot of work, and one thing it is lacking is images. Because of the work of Polish archaeologists in this area, the world's greatest collection of Makurian art and artifacts is at the National Museum in Warsaw. I am wondering if anyone plans to visit the museum, and if it would be possible to take some GFDL images of Nubian artifacts while they were there. Of greatest interest would be some of the paintings from the Faras cathedral. - SimonP 04:46, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Anybody from Warsaw? Unfortuantely, I am from Katowice, Silesia. Btw, remember to submit the article to Peer Review first before FAC. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:03, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Voting Results

Please take a look: Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Anti-Semitism_in_Poland and User_talk:Woohookitty#No_concensus.3F. --Ttyre 15:22, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Co glosowanie, nowy cyrk :) Wydaje mi sie ze w tym wypadku wynik glosowania jest delete lub merge, skoro 31 osob wybralo te opcje a za zatrzymaniem bylo jedynie 14. Dodac do tego zamiary trolla ktory stworzyl ten artykul - powinien byc skasowany.--Witkacy 07:58, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, current keep looks like a really bad joke. What was the voting for, if it was all up to an admin?--SylwiaS 08:15, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Ciekawa dyskusja: [18]
Looknijcie rowniez na ostatnia zmiane w artykule, mozna z niej wywnioskowac ze Polacy sa winni Holocaustu na Zydach :) --Witkacy 15:55, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Please see: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#When_delete_votes_means_to_keep. --Ttyre 17:33, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, the article is already merged into Anti-Semitism and its title redirected to the article, so I'm not sure if there is any sense to discuss it anylonger as the original article doesn't exist. I admit that the way of thinking, which the administrators took was in Orwellian or Kafka's style or (why to look for examples in the literature while life proved it true?), yes, I would say a typical attitude of communist MO, lol. --SylwiaS 18:40, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Interesting voting

Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Religious persecution by Jews --Ttyre 15:32, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Auschwitz Trial

Artykul warty uwagi, za sprawa niektorych osob ktore niemile widza w nim link do antypolonizmu (argument przeciw mozna przeczytac na mojej stronie dyskusyjnej...) - Proces w Polsce, prowadzony przez Polakow przeciwko mordercom Polakow nie zasluguje w mniemaniu owych osob na link do antypolonizmu...--Witkacy 01:07, 25 July 2005 (UTC)


Warto rozszerzyć artykul o zarzuty postawione oskarżonym i podać konkretne dane dotyczące mordowania Polaków w tym obozie jako "podludzi" wtedy będzie trudniej zarzucać niewłaściwość linku do strony o antypoloniżmie.--Molobo 23:22, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Eastern-European cooperation proposal

Crossposted to: Wikipedia talk:Polish Wikipedians' notice board, Wikipedia:Wikiportal/Russia/Russia-related Wikipedia notice board, Wikipedia talk:Wikiportal/Belarus, Wikipedia:Wikiportal/Ukraine/Ukraine-related Wikipedia notice board

I'd like to propose that Polish, Russian, Ukrainian, Belarussian (and anybody else who wants to join, you will excuse me if I won't list everyone here, I tried to reach everybody on the Wikipedia:Regional notice boards) Wikipedians join forces and try together to promote some articles to FA, instead of (what seems to be more common, unfortunately) fighting over which name should go first and similar petty issues :>

In this spirit I invite you all to comment on Polish-Muscovy War (1605-1618), an article I (mostly, wiki being wiki) have written over the past few months. It can definetly benefit from introducing Russian/English spelling of some names/people that I added knowing only Polish spelling, adjusting my Polish POV and adding more info from Russian/other sources I have no access to. I believe this article is fairly comprehensive, and we can make it reach FA. In few days I will submit it to Peer Review, and if there are no disputes on PR/article's talk page I will submit it to FA in over a week.

Once again, I invite your comments and edits, and hope this will be the first of many similar projects that proves we can work on together, to show our Eastern European history and culture to English-speaking world, most of whom unfortunately seem never to heard about Muscovy of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. If you like this initative. For now, I invite everybody to copy their replies to my talk page; if there is enough interest, perhaps we can create a serparate page to discuss it (Wikiproject:Eastern Europe or sth like this). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:36, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Not sure how much on-topic this is here, but I'd like to make you aware of the existence of the Slavopedia initiative on meta. Thanks, tsca ✉ 18:43, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Kamianets-Podilskyi

On the issue of East European cooperation, could we get some editors look at the recent history and talk page of Kamianets-Podilskyi and respond there or do something with the article? Thanks! --Irpen 22:18, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

W zwiazku z

malym zainteresowaniem na stronie 3rr, chcialbym zwrocic uwage na anonimowego pana z bratniej nacji zachodniej ktory uzywa User:213.198.84.193, User:213.198.84.198, User:84.188.240.172, i tego podobnych anonimowych IP, dzialajac w okregu artykulow pana Kopernika, Podolskiego i Klose--Witkacy 22:14, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

VfD - Here we go again!

Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Witkacy/Black Book. --Ttyre 02:08, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Daniel Pipes

A clique of editors is claiming that Daniel Pipes is Polish, but not Jewish. Can you take a look?

For what it's worth, Daniel Pipes is the son of Richard Pipes, "a Polish American scholar [who] was born in Cieszyn, Poland, to a wealthy Jewish family." logologist 13:08, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
His both parents are Jewish, see: Talk:Daniel_Pipes#He_is_of_Ashkenazi_Jewish_descent. --Ttyre 22:31, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Question

In the article about Anti-Polonism in a section referring to Germany it is said that: Poland is accused of having caused WWII. Can anyone tell, what does it mean? Are the accusations common or there are particular examples, which can be sourced in this article? --SylwiaS 18:11, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

It was put by an anon, so I've just removed it. --SylwiaS 21:28, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Wydaje mi sie ze chodzi 1. o zarzut niemieckich neo-nazistow ktorzy nadal wierza w prowokacje "Gleiwitz" 2. o zarzut (z ktorym rowniez mozna sie spotkac na wikipedii) ze Niemcy stracili West-Prusie (czytaj Wielkopolske) i nie oddali Gdanska dla pana Adolfa (chodz milo prosil) i 3. ze Polska jako panstwo w ogole powstalo. Mozna ten temat troche rozwinac, bo pewne sentymenty jednak istnieja.--Witkacy 22:51, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
It should be developed then. The sentence I removed was rather suggesting that this is official point of view of Germany. BTW I congratulate to Witkacy and Molobo being promoted to a position in which they are hold responsible for texts written by anons. :-) --SylwiaS 23:12, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Nie no, oficjalna pozycja to nie jest - ale wsrod przecietnych ludzi, na tyle popularna ze wypadalo by o tym napisac :)--Witkacy 23:21, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
I reworded it and added a case sourced by Molobo. BTW Are you going to have a new talk page since the one you have is blocked? --SylwiaS 01:34, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
Tymczasowo nie, ale jest poczta i to bez rozmow kontrolowanych ;)--Witkacy 01:53, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Neo-whatever

Piotrus is left and currently we are left without an admin to defend our club here ;). Could someone take a look at contributions of Bf-109 (talk • contribs) and Paranoid (talk • contribs)? The earlier is Zivinbudas-like, although I'm pretty sure it's not him personally. The latter introduces some strange Soviet/German propaganda and POV to articles on WWII. Halibutt 08:19, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

I am regaining my Internet access, although it may be some days before I have enough time for serious activity again. Remember there are always places like Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress, Wikipedia:Requests for comments or Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard, just to name a few. There are many competent admins out there who will be happy to help you while I am busy. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:28, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

A-P reverts

Can anyone look at the Anti-Polonism article? I've already used my 3rr. Thanks --SylwiaS 17:04, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

  • I think you misunderstand why I pointed this out. I ment that if things were so bad that so many reverts were occuring, that perhaps it's an edit war and should be handed with protection for a brief calm-down. This was not an encouragement to get others involved with content reversions. Mel "MelSkunk" Smith 17:24, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
    • Thanks, I'll try that. --SylwiaS 23:10, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Ja rowniez juz moje zuzylem wczoraj w nocy - musze poczekac do okolo pierwszej--Witkacy 17:28, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Troche sie zgubilem w tych mieszankach - czegos brakuje w artykule?--Witkacy 22:16, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Artykul wymaga wiecej uwagi, przyciaga troli i takich co chetnie by schowali swoj rasizm pod dywan. Jak dobrze ze w wiki zostaje wszystko w archiwach - kazdy bedzie mogl w przyszlosci sprawdzic: kto probowal go skasowac, kto wandalizowal i kto staral sie zatrzec slady--Witkacy 21:07, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Eastern European Wikipedians' notice board

Wikipedia:Eastern European Wikipedians' notice board has just been created. Please participate, edit anything there and add it to your watchlists if you think the idea is workable. Regards, --Irpen 22:55, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Poland-related items on Votes for Deletion

I just wanted to let you know about a list of Poland-related items on Votes for Deletion. It's part of WikiProject Deletion sorting, and you can find it here. I hope you can use it to track and contribute to Poland-related deletion debates. If you find the list useful, please also help keep it up to date.

By the way, new deletion sorters are welcome and needed. Join us!

Cheers,

-- Visviva 03:39, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

PS Yes, I know there's only one item on the page at the moment. However, I'm sure that more will come along.

Games with names continue

I posted recently an announcement at Wikipedia:Eastern European Wikipedians' notice board. Could the editors who haven't checked it yet, please take a look at it, as well as at Talk:Kamianets-Podilskyi, and Kamianets-Podilskyi's edit history. I would be interested in the opinions of other Polish editors, since User:Witkacy persists in doing nothing for the article but moving the Polish name between paragraphs (like from the second to the first) or switching it with the Russian name to make sure the Polish names is mentioned earlier, ignoring talk. A broad agreement would set a reliable precedent of addressing similar problems. --Irpen 03:48, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

Any place for new articles announcements?

Is there a place at PL portal similar to Portal:Russia/New article announcements and Portal:Ukraine/New article announcements? Anyway, some editors here might be interested to check Faddei Zielinski started by user:Barbatus. Of course everyone is welcome to keep an eye on RU/UA boards above as well. And please don't forget Wikipedia:Eastern European Wikipedians' notice board, which I hope has some future. Thanks! --Irpen 00:15, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

Not that I know of, although you may want to check Wikipedia:Polish Wikipedians' notice board/to do - I did try to start a 'recently done' section, but few ppl seem to be interested in updating it. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:29, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Commons

It would be nice if we could sort articles from commons:Category:Poland. There are quite a few subcategories, but a) they are fairly chaotic b) there are still quite a few pictures not assigned to a category c) there are some pictures on en and pl wiki that could be moved to commons. (I'd like to create a template similar to Template:Move to Wikimedia Commons specifically to tag various articles we want moved - what do you think?). I recently got many dozens of great grafics and photos related to szlachta and PLC from Darek Wielec which I will be uploading to Commons soon, and I would like to have them properly categorised. I'd like to suggest we start series of categories related either to Template:Polish statehood or Template:History of Poland so we can assign all pictures to the relevant period (i.e. I'd like to be able to direct sb to an Wiki album with all pictures from let's say PLC period). So, if sb wants to play with pictures instead of text, for a little change of setting, we can use any and all help in Commons. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:29, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

OK, this is what I have done: on pedia, we have now Category:Polish historical images, a subcategory of Category:History images. Further, since I am mostly interested (ATM) in creating a gallery of PLC related images, I have created a subcategory to Polish historical images, one of Category:Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth historical images. On Commons I decided to work from commons:Category:History of Poland, to which I created a subcategory of commons:Category:Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. I hope you join me in categorisning the images - feel free to create other subcategories for other historical periods. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:49, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Polish partisans ?

Unfortunately I've got involved in a revert war with some crazy pro-Soviet nationalist. Is anyone aware of any "Polish partisans" fighting Soviets in Finnland ? He mentions it here. I'm almost sure he either invents these things or confuses something. Any idea ? --Lysy (talk) 17:38, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

When the Soviet Union attacked Finland in 1939, the Western public opinion was outraged, and the Western allies made some plans to give military support to Finland. Among those plans, the Polish Podhalańska brigade was to be sent there (eventually it ended up in Narvik, after the war between USSR and Finland was halted). The link in Russian mentions this. It also mentions that Polish partisans acted against the USSR on Soviet territory, so presumably in Eastern Poland, and not on the Finnish-Soviet front. This to me is not really credible, but some limited actions against the Soviets in 1939-1941 might have occured. Finally, the theory that Poland declared war on the USSR any time between 1939 and 1945 is news to me. Anyone have evidence of this? Balcer 18:30, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Kraków Ghetto COTW

Just a note that Kraków Ghetto is this week's COTW. It is a rather poor stub and is very much in need of improvement. - SimonP 01:35, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

Nowy przyjaciel

Nie trwalo to dlugo, ale nowy przyjaciel pojawil sie na horyzoncie Nightbeast (talk · contribs · logs · block user · block log) - sledzenie jego wkladu, by bylo na miejscu.--Witkacy 23:40, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

I said you should forward the dispute to Dispute Resolution, not to Polish administrators in the vain hope you'd find some biased one among them. Are you afraid of Dispute Resolution? And stop denouncing my edits as "vandalism". If anyone vandalises, it's certainly the one who never explains anything in his edit summaries except for accusations against other editors ... but this is you, not me. It's not my fault that you cannot follow rules and this has undermined a lot of your credibility, not mine.NightBeAsT 23:50, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

A oto i on, sam sie przedstawil :)--Witkacy 23:52, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

A tak na marginesie, przydalo by sie cos zrobic z tym gdanskim szablonem (i ponownie na marginesie dlaczego jest zablokowany od paru miesiecy...?) bo A. glosowania nie moga sobie poprostu zmienic zasady 3rr i B. potrzebna jest 3/4 wiekszosc by cos przeglosowac, w tym wypadku (nawet odliczajac glosy, ktore Krzys samowolnie wykluczyl) podczas glosowania nie bylo jej pod zadnym punktem i C. nadal niektorzy uzywaja szablon by zdobyc immunitet podczas cofniec. I ostatecznie D. tradycyjnie administratorzy olewaja zgloszenia zlamania 3rr. (nie wiem czy czerwony kolor szablonu tak na ich dziala, czy poprostu zla wola.. chodz powoli sie przyzwyczajam ze trzymanie sie regul na wikipedii zalezy od humoru patrolujacych strony 3rr i zgloszen wandalizmu...) --Witkacy 00:24, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

If you mean using the current name for a geographic entity — usually, the name preferred by its present inhabitants — I would support that whole-heartedly. It would prevent the "Danzig"-Gdańsk" type anomaly. logologist 03:08, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
Chodzi o uzywanie niemieckiej nazwy dla miasta, gdy nie nalezalo ono do Niemiec (nie mowimy o dzis, chodz juz raz fani klamliwego szablonu starali sie przeforsowac dodawanie niemieckich nazw w artykulach jak polskie kluby pilkarskie - ale o tym juz chyba kazdy slyszal ;) ). Ogolnie sklaniam sie coraz bardziej do uzywania obecnych nazw miast - rowniez w historycznym kontekscie - ale jedynie gdy bedzie to oficjalnie postanowione, i owa regula uzawana na calej wiki (bez wyjatkow).--Witkacy 20:07, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

I would appreciate having the same rule for city/country names across whole WP and not just for particular cities. Well, maybe for Europe at least. I would suggest actively pursuing this issue in wikipedia:Naming conventions (city names), wikipedia:Naming conventions (places) or Wikipedia:Naming conflict--Lysy (talk) 20:26, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Nasz nowy przyjaciel rozpoczął wandalizowanie wpisów o prześladowaniu Polaków w Niemczech, Kulturkampf,Settlement Commision, połączone z kasowaniem linków o tym(w Kulturkampf wykasował przemówienie Bismarcka jako tendencyjne  ;)) --Molobo 16:01, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

parodia... przemowienie Bismarcka jest POV :))--Witkacy 14:08, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Gosc generalnie poswieca sie dniami i nocami zamienianiu polskich nazw na niemieckie, dorabianiu Polakom innych narodowosci itd., mocno polecam przegladanie listy jego ostatnich dokonan ;). --ish_warsaw 20:21, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Uwaga pojawił się użytkownik Schwartz_und_Weiss wandalizujący wszystkie zmianki o Polsce --Molobo 02:46, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

B&W to po prostu skarpetka Krzysi. Chłopaki, pomocy, bo ten palant mnie zaraz zablokuje! Space Cadet 14:53, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Uwaga! pojawił się nowy użytkownik Christchurch, pozujący na brytyjskiego intelektualistę, który w różnych miejscach szkaluje Polski patriotyzm. Space Cadet 15:47, 14 September 2005 (UTC) Nawet nie ma sensu wdawać się w dyskusje z tą osobą.Ostatnio jak widziałem pisał o kąpielach Polaków w stertach odciętych głów dzieci, o tym że Polacy gwałcili biedne ośmioletnie dziewczynki niemieckie i krzyżowali niemieckie dzieci.Sądzę że to jakiś wariat szczerze mówiąc biorąc pod uwagę jego wizje.

--Molobo 01:10, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Admin który próbuje germanizować polskie nazwy w rozmowie z innym użytkownikiem zaczął obrażać Polaków i Polską kulturę. Czy można to gdzieś zgłosić ? http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:24.7.179.169&diff=9421756&oldid=9421733 "But, as Albert Einstein once said (loosely translated): The ruling by the dumb people cannot be overcome, because there are so many of them, and their vote counts as much as ours. In the meantime, please enjoy this particular aspect of the polish culture. Thank you, and happy editing. -- Chris 73 Talk 02:58, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC)" --Molobo 19:48, 20 September 2005 (UTC)


Chłopaki, Antman i Schwartz und Weiss wandalizują Eastern Pomerania i Royal Prussia. Space Cadet 23:54, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Antypolonizm odblokowany

Strona została odblokowana.Radzę zerknąć. --Molobo 10:21, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Templates

I have collected Poland-related templates on Wikipedia:WikiProject History of Poland/Periodization. Did I miss any? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:38, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I added Template:Polish Secret State. Appleseed 02:14, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Zbigniew Dłubak

Hello, I am seeking an advice and if possible, help, regarding the request for translation for Zbigniew Dłubak. As far as I can see, this article is a copy of Zbigniew Dłubak in the Polish wikipedia. So strictly speaking, this one here is supposed to be moved out and a request for translation be entered appropriately into WP:TIE instead (which I will do momentarily)... except I thought this one might as well be a somewhat special case because the artist passed away so recently. So may be there would be some interest in having this little article translated even if only partially? Regards - Introvert talk 08:08, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Done. Halibutt 20:23, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Many thanks! so promptly - Introvert talk 01:37, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Uwaga, ponowna próba zlikwidowania artykułu o antypoloniżmie

Wbrew poprzedniemu głosowaniu, kilku adminów i użytkowników chce zlikwidować i tak już atakowany artykuł.Nominowano go używając argumentu-"This is bullshit". --Molobo 18:15, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

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