Talk:Poll tax
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[edit] Georgia and voter-ID fee
An anonymous contributer added this sentence to the United States section of the article:
Georgia is currently accused of bringing back the use of a poll tax in this New York Times Article.
This sentence as it is a little awkward and possibly POV. Some research needs to be done on this topic and an appropriate paragraph inserted into the article. — Mateo SA | talk 00:54, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Actualy, it is better off not being in this article at all because otherwise lots of flat fees that are paid by a much higher percentage of the population than state id non driving would have to be listed, including the normal drivers license. Jon 14:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "Ethical basis"
"As Abraham Lincoln said, 'As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master'. This moral position is also expressed clearly by Ayn Rand."
Strictly true, but the context in which this sentence has been used could easily be interpreted as meaning that Ayn Rand would have approved of the Poll Tax. In fact, Rand was morally opposed to all forms of involuntary taxation, regardless of whether one receives services directly in return for payment. --DudeGalea 11:46, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
The above comments refer to the following paragraph (since deleted) from the article:
The ethical basis for the Poll Tax is that members of society should pay for the goods and services that they consume from that society. No-one should be forced to pay for what they do not consume, and no-one should consume what they do not pay for. As Abraham Lincoln said, 'As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master'. This moral position is also expressed clearly by Ayn Rand. A Poll Tax covers the costs of basic services such as public transport, education and policing, which are assumed to be consumed roughly equally by all members of society, regardless of their wealth or earning power, so levies equal charges on its members for these services.
[edit] Services received vs services provided
Para 2 of United Kingdom says "This charged each person for the services they received in their community." Should this not read "This charged each person for the services provided in their community." Local authorities provide, eg, child-care which is funded by the childless, etc. Sbz5809 11:59, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Fixed. Does anyone else think this should be split into two pages - one for poll taxes in general, and another for the Community Charge aka Poll Tax. Morwen - Talk 09:02, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] whites of non british descent?
Is that factually accurate? Germans, French, and Scandinavian countries where not always looked down upon. Didnt they try to just disqualify poor whites? I dont know if it had anything to do with non british - Also considering how could one make the distinction between a british and a non british white in generally assiliamble society? Should it be changed? [unknown user]
Yes, it needs changed. Race was not explictly part of the grandfather clause, instead a year was chosen prior to the abolition of slavery which had the effect of keeping poor blacks and also poor whites who immigrated after that date from voting. Jon 14:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Poll Tax
Changed an erroneous sentance, Margaret Thatcher did not reign.
She probably liked to think she did! hedpeguyuk 13:06 11 June 2006 (UTC)
No she didn't - she wanted to make Britain strong again - unlike the current labour party which is just filling its pockets and constantly adding to their nice comfortable pension schemes. thatcher didn't need to abuse the system - she and her husband were rich already. Has everyone forgotten the state Leciester Square was in becausethe previous crappy Labour government let everyone strike for months at a time. Thatcher puts a stop to all that and repairs britain and everyone calls her a tyrant and a hard arse - I'm surprised the real reason the Poll tax was introduced hasn't been mentioned. It was so that "poor" people didn't live in tiny homes (not paying much tax) and have lots and lots of kids (which they can't responsibly support at their REAL income) and rake in the benefits, when people who have worked hard all their lives (in the article insultingly referred to as "the rich") to live in nice homes and lead fulfilling lives don't get penalised because of the fruits of their labours. PAGREN - 16/10/2006
81.145.240.1 07:24, 13 February 2007 (UTC) You might be surprised to find that many "poor" people ALSO worked hard all of their lives. In addition, the poll tax favoured those earning more, at the expense of those least able to afford it. BTW the poor people in tiny homes nonsense had nothing to do with the "real" reasons for the poll tax. Fairness and ability to pay were discarded the minute it was implemented. You mention "real reasons" for implementation, yet you don't mention why it was in Scotland for a year longer in a supposedly "United" Kingdom, or why it was never enforced in N. Ireland. (Clue: try carrying out a warrant sale on someone with a balaclava and a gun)
Peter M.
From what I remember most of the scum at the poll tax riots were anarchists and layabouts who didn't want to work and felt that smashing and destroying other "poor" people's property that they worked hard to establish was the answer to everything.
[edit] Poll tax in USA
I'm pretty sure the following is false:
"The capitation clause of Article I of the United States Constitution, requiring apportionment among the states of "direct taxes", makes imposition of a poll tax by the federal government unfeasible."
- Note: above language was added on 2004-12-18 08:26:20 by Ellsworth Poll tax oldid=8605502. --Jdlh | Talk 06:53, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Wasn't this changed by the 16th amendment, which made individual (income) taxes legal? Salvor Hardin 00:51, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing this out. In fact, I think the original statement is incorrect; a poll tax was one of the few kinds of taxes clearly permitted by the capitation clause. 'Capitation' is another word for poll tax US Department of State on US Constitution. There is a related debate in the history of taxation in the United States about whether the capitation clause permitted an income tax. The Sixteenth Amendment was supposed to settle that. What I think is more relevant is that a) where the US federal government imposed a capitation, it didn't block participation in elections, and b) the US federal government doesn't run elections for its offices, the states run elections for federal offices. I think point b) really needs to be reflected in this paragraph about the Federal government and poll taxes. --Jdlh | Talk 06:53, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
- Salvor Hardin, I rewrote the United States section extensively. See if this addresses your concerns about factual accuracy. If you're satisfied, please remove the tag. --Jdlh | Talk 08:08, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] New Zealand head tax
I oppose any merger of New Zealand head tax to here. It is appropriate for this article to link to and summarise the New Zealand article, but there's enough material in the New Zealand article to warrant it being stand-alone.-gadfium 19:25, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
- It's been three months since the merge tag was placed on this article, and I'm the only one who commented on it. I've removed the tag.-gadfium 08:37, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] UK poll tax
Shouldn't we split out Community Charge as a separate article? It was a major event in British politics and it seems odd there is no independent article about it. Morwen - Talk 14:54, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Alternative meaning for "capitation"
Wikipedians:
I came this way by searching on the term "capitation" and was redirected to "Poll tax" without first going through a disambiguation page. In the USA, "capitation" is a also concept in healthcare, aside from and independent of any poll tax issue. Physicians are "capitated" under certain managed care arrangements in which they receive a set amount of money per patient per unit time (e.g. $50 per patient per month) as compensation for taking that patient under their care. This money is paid whether or not the patient needs care during that time period (and the physician assumes some risk when the patient does). This is a reimbursement cost control and risk-shifting approach commonly taken by Health Maintenance Organizations. Capitation is an alternative to "fee for service" arrangements. Maybe we need a disambiguation page. Any takers?
Cheers,
Lycophron
[edit] Community Charge
..."apparently chose to be both ruthless in imposing it and adamant that there would be no "U-turns" (reversals in policy)." This is egregious bias. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.241.27.173 (talk) 17:23, 21 January 2007 (UTC).
Anonymous editor 80.7.148.117 added a few paragraphs on 00:28, March 21, 2007 which for me took the section beyond my comfort for unsourced statements. I tagged the entire Community Charge section as "Unreferenced". There's only one reference cited in 16 paragraphs. I also deleted some text and fixed some spelling mistakes. --Jdlh | Talk 20:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- I deleted this text: "Students and UB40s only pay 20%, so for any given property what should be the income. Even with a successful collection it is uneconomic to chase a 20%er." because it's difficult to understand (what's a UB40? 20% of what?) and poorly written (different tense from rest of paragraph). --Jdlh | Talk 20:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- I deleted the modifier "immensely popular" in the paragraph about it being a voluntary tax. I guess this was intended as a sarcastic comment, but it's not clear. --Jdlh | Talk 20:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
"The initial register was wildly apocryphal. It was based on the rates register for "owned" houses with lots of other dodgy data such as housing benefit recipients. So in a university town the data was very dirty, and needed extensive cleaning and maintenance."
This paragraph doesn't read very encyclopedically - I don't know enough about the issue to fix it Kisch 04:23, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Groat
Not sure what the actual amount payable was but the 14th century tax section says "groat (2p)". A groat was 4p or more correctly, 4d. Stutley 13:28, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
