Talk:Politician

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Don't we all agree that the first paragraph is a little biased? MichaelShirley

Can the Dali Lama really be considered a politician? Is the pope a politician? user:J.J.

22/07/03 - I think not. I'm removing him from the list.

Pharaoh of Egypt is a politican if and only if Dalai Lama of Tibet is a politican! wshun

By the way, why don't we have a list of politicans? Isn't it because of political reason? -- Taku

More likely it is because the definition of "politican" maybe too vague. wshun

I think this list should only have one of each "kind" of politician. That is to say, one mayor, one president, one PM, one minister, etc. Just to show the diverse range of offices a politician can hold. The list in its present form is in danger of getting longer and longer, as more and more people throw their favorite historical figure in the list. user:J.J.

Contents

[edit] What's the difference between a politician and a statesman?

Many people will prefer to see Mohandas Gandhi and Abraham Lincoln as statesmen rather than politicians. What makes the difference here?

Is this page purposeful? What good is it? john k 08:58, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Politicians are much more than people who run campaigns

The statement, "In Western democracies, the term is generally restricted to those involved in election campaigns," is simply not true. We call our office holders politicians as well. Those running election campaigns are campaigners or campaign staff.

The sentence in its modified form is better: the term is generally restricted to those officials who attain their position through election campaigns, contrasting politicians with civil servants. I will remove the disputed tag. Zanaq 08:51, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] politican = professional liar

A politican is a person who constantly is lying in public speech. That is how we define them in central europe. In most countries of the world the population is seriously holding the opinion that being a politican is XOR with being a honest person. The current article paints too shiny a picture of politicans.

Also, that alaskan bitch is considered a politican even thought she got the governor's seat from her dandy daddy without any elections! So you can be a politican without elections even in the west! 195.70.32.136 12:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

--

Yes, you can. An appointed official (US Example: Picked and confirmed by House or Senate as opposed to elected) has the ability to assume an Elected Official's position in some orders of succession. Another US Example: During the State of the Union Address, one cabinet member (Appointed by the President) resides in the White House in case the United States Capitol is compromised, to assume the role of Presidency should anything happen to all of those who come before him.

Fictional Example, but modeled after a Constitutional Democracy: The Battlestar Galactica series; After a massive war, the Secretary of Education becomes the President and she never ran for any office. It still makes her a politician because she participates in the process. - MichaelShirley

This Battlestar Galactica reference is a poor example as the Secretary of Education would be considered a politician even before she became President by default. NobodyOfNaught 18:50, 4 April 2007 (UTC)NobodyOfNaught

[edit] The introduction

..is the most ridiculous, uncyclopedic BS I've ever seen on Wikipedia. It looks like an advocacy blogger's entry. Joffeloff 10:05, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. As that text was only a few days old, I've removed it and added a discussion of corruption further down. It's not very good, I fear, and could use help. --Tisco 04:24, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

What do you expect? The word "politicen" is a derivative of "poli-tics" which had been coined from two words "poli" meaning many and "tics" a blood-sucking parasite. Notice that most of the words refering to them has the letter "P" in it? MP=manshaped parasite etc.

Similarly, parliement is a derivative of two French words "parler"=to speak, "mentir"= to lie. 194.9.83.142 03:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)George Corvin. Nairobi

[edit] Definition

Std dict-defs are much broader than people running for office, and would include in the US

_ _ cabinet members (appointed, approved by Senate, and enumerated in statutes),
_ _ the President's chief of staff (an unelected government employee whose position is not specified in statutes),
_ _ political consultants like Karl Rove and like James Carville, at least one of whom has probably never been a Federal employee, and
_ _ Daniel P. O'Connell (last boss of 2nd-to-last big-city political machine) spent a couple of years as an minor elected public official, but is a notable politician only bcz of what he did in the later decades, which he spent as a county party chair but no longer a public official.

The article belongs on WP:CU until something else replaces the horrible definition.
On the other hand, it is also too broad: it seems blind to the distinction that i consider obvious, and that is reflected in the description of US govt civilian jobs as "civil service positions" or "political appointments" respectively: politicians participate in making policy, in contrast to other gov't employees, who carry out policies and/or provide factual input to policy-makers.
--Jerzy•t 02:03, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Possible Definition

Here are some dictionary definitions I've pulled - I'm not sure:

From WordWeb:

1)A leader engaged in civil administration

2)A person active in party politics

3)A schemer who tries to gain advantage in an organization in sly or underhanded ways

From webster.com:

1 : a person experienced in the art or science of government; especially : one actively engaged in conducting the business of a government

2 a : a person engaged in party politics as a profession b : a person primarily interested in political office for selfish or other narrow usually short-sighted reasons

From thefreedictionary.com:

1.a. One who is actively involved in politics, especially party politics. b. One who holds or seeks a political office.

2. One who seeks personal or partisan gain, often by scheming and maneuvering: "Mothers may still want their favorite sons to grow up to be President, but . . . they do not want them to become politicians in the process" John F. Kennedy.

3. One who is skilled or experienced in the science or administration of government.

Here's a draft of a proposed revison for the definition of, 'politician:'

A politician is an individual who publically and actively participates in influencing the way a society is governed. This includes people who hold decision making positions in government, and people who seek those positions, whether by means of election, coup d'etat, appointment, conquest, right of inheritance (see also: divine right), etc. A politician can also include a person who is active in party politics, or a person who has the power to influence public opinion. Members of the government who serve purely functional roles, or ordinary citizens cannot properly be called politicians; however, as the term 'politics,' in the broadest sense, can be applied to any group decision making situation, a person in that group who acts to influence that decision can be termed a politician within that group. For example, a worker participating in office politics is a politican, but only so far as the operations of his or her workplace are concerned.

If I don't get any objections or comments, I'll put it up in a day or so. (Elustran 02:42, 21 May 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Cleanup??

I think the article needs to go to a mentor. Any cleanup attempt is only going to reverted. Thats my two cents.Eagle talk 03:35, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

The best I can do is try to find some sources for this article.Eagle talk 03:36, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Definitions

Quote: "In Western democracies, the term [politician] is generally restricted to those officials who attain their position through election campaigns"

-Then, for whom are the term restricted in Eastern democracies?

-According to the article: "Political campaign" a campaign "is an organized effort to influence the decision making process within a group". But, in "western democracies" there are several other ways for politicians to attain theire positions.

[edit] Sources

Being as no particular parts of this article have been marked for sources, I am going to give you a wide variety of websites enjoy!! (I probably won't stick around, as I will be working on other cleanup articles).

[edit] Dictionarys

Dictionaries done!Eagle talk 04:18, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Anything else you want me to research? or look up? If so, please contact me on my talk page.Eagle talk 04:18, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Source

Here's a definition of politics from an an American Government textbook of mine:

"If government is the instrument for forging one interest out of many in order to legislate and to speak fro the country as a whole in matters of national interest, then politics is a means through which individual and group interests compete to shape government's impact on society's problems and goals. In political science, the perm politics encompasses a much wider spectrum than actions directed toward government policy; it applies to all power relationships and to attempts to influence the distribution of resources in the private sphere as well as the public."

I'm not sure if I need to cite that in this talk page, but it comes from Understanding American Government, 8th ed.

I'm fairly new to writing for Wikipedia, so I'm not entirely sure how to go about referencing a source, so I'll have to ask: is it appropriate to cite a definition of politics within a definition of politician, with the provision that, as numerous to-be-cited dictionaries have said, a politician is someone engaged in politics?(Elustran 18:52, 21 May 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Cleanup

Shorter intro; addition of braoder definition of ~ ; addition of anti-definition; next could be: addition of bullets in criticisms; etc.. The contents seems a bit biased but still in the limits of good faith. Dilane 02:07, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nice Cleanup

Bulleting that list handily clarified things. When I touched this page up a while ago, I wasn't sure what to do about the criticism section - I toned down its biased nature a little bit, and tried to throw in a bit of rebuttal but I was still somewhat dissatisfied. Some of this may be better merged with the page on political criticism, leaving behind some simple, relevant notes in this section on politicians. (Elustran 06:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC))

Looks clean enough to me, removing {{cleanup-date|May 2006}} template from the article. --HailFire 09:19, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
On the other hand, it could use some work. Posting {{cleanup taskforce notice|Politician}} at the top of this page. --HailFire 09:36, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
and here
second thoughts, restoring {{cleanup-date|May 2006}} --HailFire 12:26, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
made a few changes to section headers --HailFire 12:38, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Agreement with content

This is an article that could still use some additional sources or attention from an expert. I believe the definition of Politician presented here is accurate, but I wonder if political science professors and such would agree with me. In fact, I wonder how much of a general consensus there even is on what separates politicians from other folk. (Elustran 02:04, 22 September 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Suggestion

The article is pretty ugly. I suggest it be entirely rewritten. Rintrah 12:26, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Any specific suggestions? Elustran 03:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Without saying what should replace the article, I cannot be more specific. I can make some specific criticisms, though.
  • First paragraph has diffuse language which resembles business language. It should be rewritten.
  • The Definitions section is silly, particularly because the two questions are inappropriate in an encyclopedic context. The bullet points underneath them do not define politicians well.
  • The first sentence of Criticisms is weaselish. The rest of the paragraph describes general opinions and is not well written. Altogether, the section is poorly structured and not linked to any respected sources.
This is why I suggest the article should be written anew. Rintrah 14:57, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I was reasonably happy with the introductory paragraph - can you elaborate on what you mean by 'diffuse language?' The difficulty with both the introductory paragraph and the bullet-list stems from the nuance of the definition of politician: someone who is acting as a member of a governing body, someone who has gained power by convincing a body of people (regardless of size) to follow him, or, more colloquially, someone who acts in a socially manipulative manner. I am more concerned with providing a definition that is clear, neutral, comprehensive, and concise, (the essence of what an encyclopedia is) than providing one that has an encyclopedic air. I thought the list clarified what was there before, but I can see how it is a bit hodge-podge. The whole section on criticism of politicians could probably be mostly done away with, leaving a 'see also' to the article on political corruption, which is much better written. Elustran 18:45, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
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