Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche

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Mediation, arbitration, and requests for clarification, LaRouche movement, 2004-2007

Requests for clarification 2006 and 2007
"Request for appeal ...", Tsunami Butler, Jan 24, 2007.
"LaRouche again", SlimVirgin, Nov 22,2006.
"Lyndon LaRouche", ManEatingDonut, Oct 23, 2006.

Mediation 2006 and 2007
Informal mediation, November 2006
Informal mediation talk, February 2007

Arbitration 2006
Herschelkrustofsky banned, May 5, 2006.
Herschelkrustofsky enforcement, Apr 15, 2006.
Herschelkrustofsky enforcement request, May 5, 2006.

Arbitration 2005
Nobs01 and others, November 2005.
Cognition's statement in Nobs01 and others, Nov 22, 2005.
Modification of LaRouche 2 in Nobs01 and others, Dec 23, 2005.
Herschelkrustofsky indefinite probation in Nobs01 and others, Dec 23, 2005.
LaRouche 2, Jan 25, 2005–Feb 17, 2005.
LaRouche 2 talk
LaRouche 2 evidence
LaRouche 2 proposed decision
LaRouche 2 proposed decision talk

Arbitration 2004
LaRouche 1, July 4—Sep 13, 2004.
LaRouche 1 talk
LaRouche 1 evidence
LaRouche 1 evidence talk
LaRouche 1 proposed decision
LaRouche 1 proposed decision talk

Mediation 2004
Herschelkrustofsy and AndyL, July 3, 2004.
Herschelkrustofsky and DJSupreme23, June 14, 2004.
Herschelkrustofsky and Adam Carr, November 15, 2004.
Herschelkrustofsky and SlimVirgin, December 16, 2004.

Talk pages 2004-2007
Talk:Lyndon LaRouche
Lyndon LaRouche 1, Jan 17, 2004–Jun 17, 2004
Lyndon LaRouche 2, Jun 20–22, 2004
Lyndon LaRouche 3, Jun 21–24, 2004
Draft, June 24-25, 2004
Lyndon LaRouche 4, Jun 25–July 5, 2004
Lyndon LaRouche 5, Jul 05–Aug 1, 2004
Lyndon LaRouche Jewish issues, June–Aug 2004
Lyndon LaRouche Herschel list, July–Aug 2004
Lyndon LaRouche Herschel list archive
Lyndon LaRouche 6, Aug 6-9, 2004
Lyndon LaRouche 7, Aug 11-17, 2004
Lyndon LaRouche omissions, Sep 9-10, 2004
Lyndon LaRouche 8, Aug 18, 2004–Sep 28, 2004
Lyndon LaRouche 9, Sep 18, 2004–Oct 11, 2004
Lyndon LaRouche 10, Dec 16, 2004–Jan 20, 2005
Lyndon LaRouche partial archive, material missing
Lyndon LaRouche 11, Jan 20, 2005–Jul 19, 2005
Lyndon LaRouche 12, Jul 28, 2005–Nov 12, 2006
Lyndon LaRouche 13, Nov 21, 2006—Feb 18, 2007

Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche
Political views temp
Political views 1, Aug 21, 2004–Nov 29, 2004
Political views 2, Dec 17, 2004–Jan 11, 2005
Political views 3, Jan 11, 2005–Oct 02, 2006
Political views "cooked quotes", Jan 22–23, 2005
Political views, informal mediation, Feb 27, 2006–Mar 04, 2006

Other talk
Talk:United States v. LaRouche
Talk:Schiller Institute
Talk:Schiller Institute/archive1
Talk:Amelia Boynton Robinson
Talk:John Train Salon
Talk:LaRouche Youth Movement
Talk:Helga Zepp-LaRouche
Talk:Jeremiah Duggan
Talk:Jeremiah Duggan/archive1, Nov 14–Dec 6, 2004
Talk:Jeremiah Duggan/archive2, Dec 6, 2004–Jan 12, 2005.
Template Talk:LaRouche

Contents

[edit] Two recent edits that were wrongly reverted

On this edit[1] it seems silly and misleading to argue that the edits labeled "general" are any different than the ones labeled "critical." It would be more honest to label the external links either "pro-" or "anti-" LaRouche.

On the John Train edit revert ([2],) let's not forget (as some editors seem to) that this is an article about the Political Views of Lyndon LaRouche, and we should make an effort to stay current. The LaRouche people are pushing this John Train thing hard -- my sister picked up their pamphlet on campus last week.

I was initially in favor of opening up the article John Train Salon again (instead of a redirect to this article,) but Will Beback/Willmcw/User2004 told me to just put the information in this one (see [3].) I'm sure that I'm not the only person who is puzzled about why Chip Berlet and Dennis King, two hippy-dippy conspiracy theorists with no academic credentials, suddenly had access to wads of foundation money and media time. Since they are also being given a platform here at Wikipedia, this information (which seems to answer the riddle) should not be hidden or suppressed. --NathanDW 20:17, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I was able to read Talk:John Train Salon, but when I tried to read the article, I got stuck in a loop where I kept getting redirected to Political Views of Lyndon LaRouche. Can someone please tell me how to navigate to the John Train Salon article? Thanks in advance. --ManEatingDonut 22:12, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
"John Train Salon" was merged into this article. -Will Beback 23:05, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
You can read the last complete version of the "salon" article by following this link. Very little of it actually made it into the merged version. --172.193.31.88 06:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
The above link doesn't work either. --Don't lose that number 14:40, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
It is appalling that the silly story of a John Train conspiracy is being presented as fact. I was at the two meetings at Train's apartment; they were informational only. No plot was discussed or developed. This is all an artifically generated urban legend and should be dispensed with in one or two sentences with the caveat that no reputable source has confirmed the LaRouchian allegations. Herbert Quinde, author of the affidavit, was not even present at the meetings and has a reputation as a prankster and a source of false information (like when he told the Spanish secret police in the early 1980s where to find Basque terrorists in France--the Spanish sent agents to kidnap totally innocent people as a result). Quinde's main source for the plot, Michael Hudson, was bullshitting Quinde because he was fed up with being harassed by the LaRouchians and thought he'd freak them out with a little disinformation. (The LaRouchians had borrowed money from Hudson and refused to pay him back; when he sued them, they printed articles calling him a KGB agent. With experiences like that does anyone thing Hudson would or should have bothered to give them accurate information?)--Dking 00:30, 1 January 2007 (UTC)P.S. Another example of this silliness is the Internet rumor that my travel expenses to the meeting were paid by the John Birch Society. In fact, John Train's apartment was only a few block from my own and I walked to the meetings. I received no monetary compensation for attending from either the JBS, the CPUSA, the CIA, the KGB, little green men or anyone else.--Dking 00:30, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Chip Berlet already explained over at Talk:John Train Salon that only he got the travel money. But do you deny that you got foundation money for your book? --Tsunami Butler 08:46, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Tsunami, why do you even ask this? You know perfectly well that in the Acknowledgement section at the end of my book I listed grants from the Smith Richardson Foundation and the Stern Fund. So what? Neither of these grants came from any John Train conspiracy, since such a conspiracy never existed.-- Dking 19:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I am asking something more specific. The LaRouche website makes this claim about the John Train meeting you attended: "At the meeting, arrangements were also made to have King's planned book on LaRouche financed by the League for Industrial Democracy and by the Smith Richardson Foundation." True or false? They also make this claim: "On Aug. 6, 1984, attorneys for LaRouche depositioned Dennis King. When asked about the circumstances under which he was introduced to Pat Lynch, King was silent. His attorney, Scott McLaughlin, interrupted the deposition, and took King out into the hallway for 20 minutes; when they returned, King claimed he could not recall how he had first met Lynch." Your comment? --Tsunami Butler 21:07, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
It is not appropriate to use Wikipedia to conduct research that would help a convicted felon with a histiory of harassment. If nothing else, it violates WP:OR.--Cberlet 02:52, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Separate article for criticisms of LaRouche?

I apologise if this point has already been discussed and archived, i had a quick look and didn't see it. I'm wondering whether it would be easier to gain consensus on this and other LaRouche articles (and avoid NPOV tags,mediation,etc) if the analysis and criticisms of LaRouche and his theories were grouped together in a single article dedicated to that purpose. I'm no LaRouche supporter (quite the opposite), and i certainly think that such criticisms are valid and have a place on wikipedia, but i don't think that place is scattered amongst a number of different articles. The title of this article indicates to me that it should explain what the political views of Lyndon LaRouche are, not analyse the validity of those views. I would explect to see such analysis in an article titled 'Criticisms of Lyndon LaRouche' or something similar. Content in this article (and other related articles) could then be replaced by single sentences like "Point X is disputed by critics of LaRouche; see (article link here)" --D Elkington 06:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I feel much the same as you: that it's be best to consolidate criticism. There are some "Criticisms of ..." articles on controversial figures (though one just got deleted ) and they have the benefit of preventing the main articles from being overwhelmed by criticism. However the approach preferred by the community, and even by Wikipedia's founder, is to mix in the criticism so that all matters are covered neutrally and the pros and cons are presented together. See Wikipedia:criticism. -Will Beback · † · 10:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the link, i hadn't seen that discussion before. I definitely lean more towards the second proposal, i think it gives articles a more encyclopaedic feel. After reading the 'Criticism in a "Reception" or "Reception history" section' guidelines, i wonder if this might be applied to the LaRouche articles. Perhaps 'Analysis of the political views of LaRouche', as this could include both the positive and negative POV. --D Elkington 01:42, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
There isn't all that much explicit criticism in this article, considering its overall length. However some sections, even when they only quote LaRouche, appear to express a critical point of view. If you'd like to work on improving this article I suggest taking a section at a time. This article was the subject of bitter fights a long time ago, and involved editors were too exhausted to come back and fix things up after the dust settled. That work is long overdue. -Will Beback · † · 06:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Who calls LaRouche a fascist?

In an article pretty much dominated by preposterous sanitization of LaRouche's ideas, the views of his critics are slyly demeaned, like when it was said that LaRouche is called a fascist by "leftwing writers and orators." I changed this to "some critics" since the term has been used in reference to LaRouche by a number of people who are decidedly NOT leftwing, such as the late Senator Moynihan, former Our Town publisher Ed Kayatt (a rockbound Reaganite), former Our Town editor and editorial writer Kalev Pehme, cold warrior Irwin Suall (who called LaRouche a "small-time Hitler") and many American Jewish supporters of Likud, such as the late Howard Adelson. Chip Berlet's conservative nemesis John Rees has referred to LaRouche as a "roast-beef fascist," which is not simply a joke since historically many fascists have either come out of the left, sought alliances there, or merged leftwing and rightwing rhetoric in their mass agitation (by attacking capitalism but saying the bad side of capitalism is a Jewish plot). I also took out the word "orators" since in context it was an obvious nonsense term meant to suggest a lack of credibility without having to prove it.--Dking 22:58, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit was not mine

The history of this article now records that I made an insert in this article today having to do with code language, which was promptly removed by Slim Virgin. I absolutely did not make this edit and have no idea why it is recorded under my name.--Dking 23:47, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] John Train Salon

I know that Dking and Cberlet have a particular desire to eliminate the John Train material from this article, but this is an article about LaRouche's political views, and LaRouche is the ultimate verifiable source on what those views are. I don't accept SlimVirgin's argument that, in effect, we may not report LaRouche's views on Living Persons. She certainly isn't applying that across the board, or we would delete most of this article. The material deleted is sourced not only to LaRouche, but also an affidavit submitted in court, so I can't accept the idea that it can be deleted to please certain editors. --NathanDW 06:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

All contentious claims about living persons that are sourced to LaRouche should be removed from this article. Nathan, if you restore any again, it will be a BLP violation. If there's a court document and if it's independent of LaRouche, by all means use it as a source, but you should also find an independent secondary source. Until you have that, you can't add this material. Please read WP:BLP. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:14, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I will try to find some outside source for this, but it seems to me that this is an unusual circumstance. This is in a section on "LaRouche's conspiracy theories," so it is not being presented as proven. I don't think your BLP argument applies in this case.
Also, I note on various talk pages that neither King nor Berlet denies that these meetings took place. They simply claim that it was a normal, innocent gathering of quasi-left-wing activists, deep-pockets right-wing financiers and intelligence operatives. So the facts are not in dispute, as far as I can see-- only the interpretation, which is of course, just another LaRouche conspiracy theory. So, where's the contention? --Tsunami Butler 03:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I've worked on this a little, but it seems a bit ridiculous to document a LaRouche conspiracy theory with additional sources. It is not being presented as a widely-shared conspiracy theory, just a LaRouche conspiracy theory, so it doesn't really matter how many people agree with it. As I said, the facts themselves are not in dispute, so SlimVirgin, I would ask you to explain your thinking on this more fully. --Tsunami Butler 03:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

"According to a sworn affidavit..." I guess I could have changed this to 'According to a pdf file of unknown origin on a geocities site...", but I didn't really see the point, so I took it out instead, along with everything that seemed to depend on it. If the point is that the LaRouche orginazition thinks lots of people are conspiring to make them look like loons, I'm not sure how notable that is anyway. Tom Harrison Talk 04:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I have replaced that cite with a cite to the affidavit itself, which is provided in the Daniel Brandt article. What is notable about the meetings is the stellar grouping (except for King and Berlet) of persons and organizations that attended. It has COINTELPRO written all over it. --Tsunami Butler 15:03, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
WP:ATT and WP:BLP specifically prohibit the use of self-published third-party sources in support of biographical material about living persons. The use of primary sources alone is also discouraged. Please find a mainstream secondary source for this material, or leave it out. SlimVirgin (talk) 15:19, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Would you kindly be specific about what you consider to be a "self-published third party source" in this article? --Tsunami Butler 15:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
You used a self-published website as a secondary source, I believe, and an affidavit as a primary source. Others used a LaRouche publication. None of these are reliable sources within the meaning of WP:ATT and WP:BLP. For contentious claims about living persons, you must use the best possible sources, which in this case would mean a mainstream news organization or other publisher. Please decide whether to answer here or on your talk page, but not both, please. SlimVirgin (talk) 15:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
You seem to be reluctant to name the source you are objecting to. Is it Daniel Brandt? I have gathered from various Wikipedia controversies that you and he don't get along. His organization is no different than Chip Berlet's (in fact, Chip Berlet was once part of his organization) and in fact, there is an organization, whereas Dennis King's website is entirely self-published.
But you still haven't answered what I think is the main question here: we are not talking about "contentious claims about living persons." We are talking about a conspiracy theory of Lyndon LaRouche. You yourself have taken pains to emphasize that he is a conspiracy theorist, and this is an article specifically about his theories. I don't see how you can object to LaRouche as a source for his own theories. --Tsunami Butler 15:32, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
As a matter of interest, when I ask you to post either here or on my talk page, but not both, why do you continue to post on both?
Please don't edit further without reading our content policies. That's what they are there for, so that individual editors don't have to explain everything from scratch on every talk page about every issue. SlimVirgin (talk) 15:38, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Please. I'm not asking you to explain everything from scratch. I'm asking you to specify which source you are objecting to. --Tsunami Butler 15:48, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm objecting to all the sources you used. One is a self-published website; one is what looks like a post to the National Review blog; one is a LaRouche publication. Find a mainstream source. If you can't find one, let that tell you something.
Question: have you read the content policies? SlimVirgin (talk) 15:54, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Questions for SlimVirgin

Let me preface this by saying I have read the content policies, and I think that you have a novel interpretation of BLP. Here are my questions:

1. You say that theories or claims made by LaRouche about living persons may not be sourced to LaRouche publications. Using this interpretation of BLP, do you think that this edit, made two days ago by yourself, should be removed? It refers to a claim made by LaRouche about advisors to the British royal family, and is sourced to a LaRouche publication.

No, because it doesn't name anyone, and it's clearly absurd. But you could find another source if you prefer. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

2. You say that claims about living persons may not be sourced to "self-published third party sources." Are you referring here to Public Information Research, the organization associated with Daniel Brandt?

No third-party self-published sources are allowed. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

3. Do you believe that Public Information Research is in a different category, for the purposes of BLP source citing, than Political Research Associates (Chip Berlet), DennisKing.org (Dennis King), or the Rick A. Ross Institute (Rick Ross)? The LaRouche articles have abundant derogatory material on LaRouche sourced to these latter three websites. Do you think that these articles would conform better to BLP if they were to rely strictly on mainstream sources? --Tsunami Butler 23:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Political Research Associates is a research company with employees. As for the other two, I don't know much about them. Perhaps you can do the research and determine whether they're self-published. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

4. PIR is also a research company with employees. Their home page also indicates that they were incorporated in 1989 and have 501(c)3 status. You haven't actually said whether you think PIR is a "self-published third party source," but given these facts, it seems clear that they are not. Do you agree? --Tsunami Butler 15:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

There are no employees listed at the cited page--Cberlet 18:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The alleged "internal memo" and BLP

As SlimVirgin has pointed out, the standards for sourcing under Biographies of Living Persons are very high. Dubious sourcing is unacceptable. The document attributed to LaRouche is supposed to be an "internal memo." Is there a reliable, mainstream source where LaRouche acknowledges that he wrote this? "High Times" and the "Justice for Jeremiah website" are hardly mainstream sources. --Tsunami Butler 06:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Please say which material you're talking about. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
The two purported quotes from LaRouche which are supposedly from an "internal memo" called "Politics of Male Impotence." Following the cites to Chip Berlet's website, the source is a scanned image of a sheet of typewritten paper. This totally fails the WP:V test, and also runs contrary to the rule that "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources" at WP:A. I am reverting this material. --Tsunami Butler 22:25, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I am also restoring the NPOV tag -- this article is being used as a vehicle to promote WP:FRINGE theories of Chip Berlet and Dennis King, and needs cleanup to conform to NPOV policy standards. --Tsunami Butler 22:33, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
It's not an exceptional claim; LaRouche is well-known for making extreme statements. And Political Research Associates is regarded as a reliable source, and has been accepted as such by the ArbCom. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:34, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
"Material available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all." --WP:BLP. Are you going to argue that Chip Berlet's website is not partisan? And in this particular case, you have an unusual circumstance: these are quotes that are being attributed to LaRouche. On whose say-so? What person is claiming that LaRouche wrote them, and how would this person be in a position to know? These are unpublished statements. Under BLP, they should go. --Tsunami Butler 22:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
The source is LaRouche himself, and if you read the memo, it's very clearly material from him. Also, as I've told you many times, PRA is regarded as a reliable source for Wikipedia, and the ArbCom has supported that. This isn't the place to discuss that decision. Please don't keep tagging the article whenever you find something you don't like.
Although it's fine to include the quote in terms of its sourcing, I'd question including it as an example of bias against "non-white, non-European, non-patriarchal, non-heterosexual cultures and identities," as we currently do. If you read the whole memo, it appears to be largely misogynist rather than racist, as he rails against German and Italian mothers too. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:16, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
How would you know whether is is LaRouche? If you have some factual basis for saying so, please insert your real name in the article as the person vouching for its authenticity, or better yet, leave it out. As you say, LaRouche is known for making extreme statements. Therefore, what is preventing you, Berlet and King from making your case against him with actual, verifiable quotes? There are no shortage of them on the web, from veriable, LaRouche sources. There should be no need for you to resort to such a dubious source. --Tsunami Butler 01:21, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Having taken another look at both "LaRouche" ArbCom cases, I see that they both pre-date the BLP policy. Therefore, I think that it is incorrect for you to assert that the ArbCom has given a blanket blessing to the use of Chip Berlet's website as a source. I think that it should be handled with extreme caution under BLP, especially because it is so often the source of "derogatory" characterizations of living persons. Whereever possible, a mainstream source should be found, and in many cases, such as the one we are discussing, the material should be removed under BLP. Your responsibilities as an Admin should take precedence over your POV in such a situation. --Tsunami Butler 01:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Dillin, John. "Lyndon LaRouche has got America's attention now!", Christian Science Monitor (Boston, MA), The Christian Science Publishing Society, 1986-03-27, p. 1. Retrieved on 8 March 2006. - Born to Quaker parents, LaRouche got his political start in the 1940s, when he was a member of the Trotskyist Socialist Workers Party. At the time he took the name Lyn Marcus, after Lenin and Marx. Other mainstream sources also mention his use of the name Lyn Marcus. Tom Harrison Talk 02:07, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Tsunami Butler, Political Research Associates isn't Chip Berlet's website; it's a professional research organization. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:40, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Tom, I am aware that LaRouche wrote under the pen name Lyn Marcus. That's in his autobiography. I am questioning whether the image of an unpublished typewritten document of unknown origin that is posted by Chip Berlet on the Political Research Associates website is actually written by LaRouche/Lyn Marcus, and I am also questioning the decision of SlimVirgin and Cberlet to insist upon using such a document as a source for Wikipedia, particularly when the number of authentic, verifiable documents attributable to LaRouche numbers in the thousands on the internet alone. --Tsunami Butler 15:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I have corrected the cites on this to reflect the fact that it is an unpublished document of questionable authenticity. I won't revert until there has been further discussion. Ultimately this is still a BLP issue -- the BLP policy requires that we use unimpeachable sources. --Tsunami Butler 15:46, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Has anyone from the LaRouche movement questioned the authenticity? SlimVirgin (talk) 17:04, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I have no idea. As I understand it, the purpose of WP:BLP is to anticipate and avoid complaints of that nature. I have restored my edits, because the previous format makes it appear as if the article in question was published, which it was not. Regardless of whether LaRouche wrote it, we have a responsibility not to mislead the readers by making it appear as if it were published.
I have restored the NPOV tag, which has been on this article since I began editing Wikipedia last October. SlimVirgin, it was you who unilaterally intervened to change the status quo on this. It ought to be obvious that there are ongoing neutrality disputes about this article. --Tsunami Butler 21:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
You're editing in violation of the ArbCom cases and you've violated 3RR. The material was published by Political Research Associates. Do you deny this?
If LaRouche has not denied the quotes are his, you're engaged in OR by claiming that there's no evidence they're his.
As for the tag, there are always going to be POV issues from the perspective of LaRouche followers, but that doesn't mean there are real ones, so don't keep adding the tag. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:10, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I find your interpretation of BLP to be amazingly flexible, depending, of course, on whether the Living Person is someone you like or dislike. Also, could you specify how Ms. Butler is violating an ArbCom decision? --NathanDW 02:04, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Questions for SlimVirgin

1. I also would like to know how you think I am violating the LaRouche ArbCom decisions. I have read both of them carefully. Please indicate the remedy or remedies you are referring to.

You're acting to promote LaRouche. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
This is baloney, and self-serving baloney as well. I am arguing that LaRouche, the subject of this article and others, is merely not exempt from the WP:BLP policy. This does not constitute "promotion of LaRouche." It appears to me that you are acting to exert ownership of these articles to make them a showcase for the esoteric fringe theories of Dennis King and Chip Berlet, both of whom are now editing Wikipedia, engaging in self-promotion and excessive self-citing in violation of WP:COI. You have thus far refused to discuss BLP as it applies to the subject of these articles. --Tsunami Butler 11:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

2. Why do you object to identifying the "internal memo" as an unpublished document? By citing it as if it were a published source, you mislead the reader.

It wasn't unpublished. The part we are quoting was published or we wouldn't be able to quote it. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
See #3, below. --Tsunami Butler 11:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

3. You ask whether I deny that the material was published by Political Research Associates. No, I don't. That's exactly the point. It should be attributed to PRA, not to LaRouche. I don't care whether the Washington Post has a published account that says that Dennis King says that Chip Berlet says that LaRouche wrote it (and Chip ain't saying where he got this document.) Just because the parson's wife repeats gossip, it doesn't make the gossip more true. Now for my question: why is it that you don't recognize this as a BLP issue?

We report what published sources say, and we have a published source. As a matter of interest, how do you know it wasn't also published by LaRouche? SlimVirgin (talk) 16:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Because by following the cites, the trail leads to a typewritten document, posted by Chip Berlet at the PRA website. The trail ends there. Where did he get it? Dumpster diving? He doesn't say. --Tsunami Butler 11:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

4. Is it your view that Public Information Research, Inc. is a source that may not be used at Wikipedia? If not, why not? I am trying to ascertain whether they have "employees" as opposed to "directors," since Cberlet is raising that as an issue. But where in WP:RS does it make that distinction? --Tsunami Butler 16:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean Political Research Associates? They have staff as explained above.
No, I mean Public Information Research, which has Daniel Brandt on its board of directors. Is it your view that this a source that may not be used at Wikipedia? If not, why not? --Tsunami Butler 11:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I've had enough of this back and forth. The material has been correctly sourced, and there's no point in going on about it. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Like it says at the talk of the page, this is a controversial topic and substantial changes to the article must be discussed before being made. I feel like I am having difficulty getting your cooperation in this. --Tsunami Butler 11:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
If you don't start editing within our policies, you're going to face administrative action. People have had enough of LaRouche supporters who cause endless disruption. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:44, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality

I see a neutrality dispute here. Does that make me a LaRouche follower? Does it take some special rank or status at Wikipedia to add a tag to an article? --Don't lose that number 21:45, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the comments of D Elkington earlier on this page. The reader shouldn't have to guess which are the views of LaRouche, and which are the speculation or analysis of his critics. There is no clear differentiation in the article. This is one reason why I think the neutrality dispute tag is appropriate.
There seems to be opposition to the use of Daniel Brandt as a source. Is this a revenge thing, because he opened up the Essjay scandal? --Don't lose that number 22:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Daniel Brandt has never published anything on LaRouche in a venue recognized as citable by Wikipedia. He has produced self-published comments in his own newsletter and on his website--these might be marginably acceptable if they were supplemental to work that had established him as an expert on the subject, but the fact is that he has never published anything on LaRouche in a citable publication, much less established himself as having any expertise in the subject. From what I have read of Brandt's self-published materials on LaRouche and the so-called John Train salon, these seem to be an uncritical rehashing of what has appeared in LaRouche's Executive Intelligence Review, which itself is not recognized as a legitimate source by Wikipedia. This has nothing to do with the Essjay incident, on which Brandt of course could be quoted since his remarks have appeared in numerous publications recognized by Wikipedia. And lest anyone charge that I'm part of a giant revenge conspiracy against Brandt, I invite them to (a) read my strong support for Brandt's work as an electronic indexer and the creator of "Namebase" included in all three editions of my Get the Facts on Anyone and (b) insert a quote therefrom into Brandt's Wikipedia bio.--Dking 16:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
You make the assertion that Brandt is self-published, but it appears that his material is published by a non-profit corporation, Public Information Research. --Don't lose that number 13:49, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't think Brandt or anyone else would deny that Public Information Research is a vehicle chiefly for the nonprofit activities of Brandt himself. If he publishes material on a web site he controls, that is self publication. Since Brandt has not built up prior credibility on the subject of LaRouchism through extensive publication in print publications recognized by Wiki--and since his self-published material has not been reprinted in such publications--I see no grounds whatsoever for bending any rules and citing him in this particular article.--Dking 15:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
"If he publishes material on a web site he controls" -- how is that different from Chip Berlet and PRA? It looks like an identical circumstance to me. Also, "building up prior credibility" does not appear in any Wikipedia guidelines that I have seen -- this seems to be your own innovation. Either the publication being cited is a reliable source, or it is not. There is no "reliability by association." That is why I think that you and Cberlet should only cite your own material when it has appeared in a mainstream publication. --NathanDW 15:52, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Stop changing the subject. There are no grounds for citing Daniel Brandt's website and any attempts to do so will be deleted.--Dking 17:21, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Is it possible that you may have a personal interest in this? --Don't lose that number 14:48, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Please stop this tendentious nitpicking. The Arbcom decision is clear. Plesae do not try to circumvent it by burying discussion pages with pointless objections that represent a tiny marginal POV that should not be given Undue Weight WP:UW.--Cberlet 15:17, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Excuse me, but where is any of this mentioned in an arbcom decision? --HonourableSchoolboy 23:44, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Use of NPOV tag

I looked it up at Wikipedia:NPOV dispute, where it says the following: "Please note: The above label is meant to indicate that a discussion is ongoing, and hence that the article contents are disputed and volatile. If you add the above code to an article which seems to be biased to you, but there is no prior discussion of the bias, you need to at least leave a note on the article's talk page describing what you consider unacceptable about the article. The note should address the problem with enough specificity to allow constructive discussion towards a resolution, such as identifying specific passages, elements, or phrasings that are problematic." Therefore it seems appropriate to me that the tag remain until the issues have been resolved. I think that the point raised by "Don't lose that number" is valid, although there are more specific issues that should be raised under that rubric. I question the intentions of those editors that just want to remove the tag without engaging in any discussion of the issues raised. --HonourableSchoolboy 00:02, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV dispute

I have carefully followed the guidelines at Wikipedia:NPOV dispute in starting this discussion. Here are examples of bias and undue weight that I see in the article.

  • In the intro, the following is Original Research: "LaRouche's critics and supporters often have difficulty interpreting or agreeing on the meaning of statements he has made." Some of LaRouche's critics insist that there are hidden meanings in LaRouche's writing. However, that is not an appropriate topic for an article on LaRouche's political views. As D Elkington suggested, it might be appropriate material for a seperate article, if it can be demonstrated that these theories are actually notable, which I doubt.
  • Anyone who knows anything about LaRouche knows that the statement "LaRouche's critics and supporters often have difficulty interpreting or agreeing on the meaning of statements he has made" is correct. It's close to "the sky is blue," and it's WP:POINT to demand a source for it. It's a polite way of saying "his critics think most of what he says is nuts, but hey, there might be another way of looking at it." SlimVirgin (talk) 17:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
  • King and Berlet are a minority view among LaRouche critics. Most of them call him a conspiracy theorist, some call him either left-wing or right-wing. The idea that he is secretly in favor of what he says he is against, i.e. fascism, is a tiny minority view. Your claim that it is WP:POINT to demand a source is completely wild. --HonourableSchoolboy 22:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
  • In the section on fascism, there is the usual litany from King and Berlet accusing LaRouche of being a fascist himself, even though LaRouche writes extensively in opposition to fascism. This is irrelevant to an article on LaRouche's views. Maybe it would be appropriate to include it in the biographical articles on King and Berlet, since it is sort of their trademark.
  • Cut out the personal attacks, please. Berlet and King are regarded as reliable sources on LaRouche. You may not like that, but it's a fact. Both have conducted professional research into the LaRouche organization, and King has written a book about it, so citing them is perfectly valid. And how can it possibly be irrelevant to LaRouche's political views that he's regarded by two reliable sources as displaying tendencies toward fascism? SlimVirgin (talk) 17:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I made no personal attacks. It is a matter of record that King and Berlet have made repeated claims that LaRouche is a fascist. They have also pushed this POV at Wikipedia. --HonourableSchoolboy 22:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
  • In the section on Conspiracy Theories, all the stuff about "conspiracism" by King and Berlet is irrelevant. This is an article on LaRouche's views, not on the speculations of his critics.
  • You have that wrong. An article on LaRouche's political views tells us what LaRouche thinks his views are, and what third-party reliable sources think his views are. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
  • LaRouche states on the record what his views are. If someone suggests that his views are different than what he says, that is speculation bordering on conspiracy theory. --HonourableSchoolboy 22:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Similar problems exist throughout the remainder of the article. That's why I think the neutrality tag should stay up until these issues are resolved. --HonourableSchoolboy 00:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I hope I've addressed your issues. Please bear in mind that to use the tag correctly, you have to make suggestions for change that are actionable within our policies. The tag can't be used to mean "I don't like this." SlimVirgin (talk) 17:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Too bad your marginal view has been rejected repeatedly. Must be frustrating. Please accept the majority view. Tendentious editing is frowned upon.--Cberlet 01:07, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
You say my "marginal view" has been rejected by the "majority view." Looking at this talk page, I don't see it. If you were to do a head count, it appears that more editors agree with me than with you. But rather than trying to avoid a discussion of the points I raise, why don't you just respond to them in a civil fashion? --HonourableSchoolboy 01:12, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
It's not a question of head count. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Cberlet refers to a "majority view." I dispute this. --HonourableSchoolboy 21:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, in initiating edit war over this, you use the edit memo, "The ArcCom decision is clear." Which ArbCom decision applies to this? You have said this before, but you seem absolutely unwilling to be specific. Please quote the relevant passage, or stop bringing it up. --HonourableSchoolboy 01:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
The ArbCom decisions are listed on this page so by all means have a look through them yourself. There were three that touched on LaRouche: LaRouche 1, 2, and Nobs01. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I've read all of them. As there are restrictions on inserting material about LaRouche in articles that are not closely related. There are bans and also warnings because of personal attacks (including one warning for you, SlimVirgin.) Two pro-LaRouche editors are banned. CBerlet is warned about autobiography. There is nothing that refers to the suitability of PRA as a source, also nothing that says that this or any other article is not subject to BLP, NPOV and other policies. Every time someone raises a question about the edits of you or Cberlet, you evade the question, saying "read the ArbCom decisions." Well, I've read them, and I would like you to stop evading the questions. --HonourableSchoolboy 21:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Discussion at another article named "Political views of ......"

-- Yellowdesk 06:12, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


I don't see a great deal of difference between calling them "political views" and "political positions." However, I think the Mitt Romney article is far closer to NPOV than the LaRouche article is. It is straightforward and unadorned, without a lot of the speculation and spin that makes this article so POV-ridden. --Tsunami Butler 06:53, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Princess Diana

I took a look at the Princess Diana issue. The article by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard that is quoted in the intro of the Wikipedia article is dismissed by the LaRouche organization as "pure fiction." So, I am moving that reference to the conspiracy section so that both it and the LaRouche response can be referenced. The 911 conspiracy reference is undisputed, I believe. --Don't lose that number 14:20, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

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