Talk:Political divisions of the Republic of China

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Contents 1 Move 2 Table headers 3 Mongolia 4 Map anonmalies 5 Provinces on the mainland 6 Quemoy and Matsu locator maps 7 well there is probably only five romanizations, to discourage spies 8 "Political"

[edit] Move

Should this be moved from Political divisions of Taiwan to Political divisions of the Republic of China? Because it contains the two non-Taiwanese island-counties. --Menchi 19:47 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I support the move. --Jiang 20:11 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

You could experiment your new adminship first on this (after the developer adminize you soon). You don't have record anything in the Talk about your delete-and-move's, but it avoids confusion for non-participants. --Menchi 20:24 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

??? Anyone, including non-sysops, can move pages. --Eloquence 23:25 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Not here. There's a redir existing by the same name already, hence requiring deletion by admin/sysop. --Menchi 14:50 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Paged move. No, a deletion of the existing redirect was not necessary to move the page, since the redirect had no other edit history. --Jiang 00:32 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Table headers

Having separate columns for "Pinyin" and "Pinyin with tones" is unnecessary. Just put tones on the pinyin and keep it to 1 column. --Jiang

Done. --spencer195

Visually, yes. I just tried Google, and people who typed Taizhong will receive a hit if Wikipedia only has Táizhōng. --Menchi 23:18, 7 Nov 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Mongolia

hey, there is a map of ROC in Chinese Wikipedia(including Mongolia). I don't think the current map here is accurate, I think that's more a Political divisions of Taiwan, rather than Political divisions of the ROC. What's about using the map in Chinese WP? --Yacht 08:58, Mar 1, 2004 (UTC)

The map here is the ROC as it is now. The one on the chinese wikipedia is the ROC in the 1930s. It's important that we differentiate what is defunct and what is not.

The Chinese one would defintely belong at history of the Republic of China. It could belong here if we add a bit more historical content (how many provinces there were when they controlled the mainland, etc.) But why is Taiwan also colored in? Taiwan/Penghu was ceded to Japan in 1895 and only returned in 1945, I believe. Aside from the map and referring to the table on the Chinese version, Taibei and Gaoxiong are also centrally administered municipalities, not municipalities of Taiwan Province, which consist of 5 other cities. --Jiang 19:34, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Oh, really? I never knew that! that means, Taiwan didn't belong to ROC during 1895 to 1945, even when the foundation of ROC in 1912, Taiwan was only a colony of Japan then, so why did the ROC government declear Taiwan to be on of its provinces? that's weird... --Yacht 09:04, Mar 2, 2004 (UTC)

The Treaty of Shimonoseki: Article 2: China cedes to Japan in perpetuity and full sovereignty the following territories, together with all fortifications, arsenals, and public property thereon:— (a)... (b) The island of Formosa, together with all islands appertaining or belonging to the said island of Formosa. (c) The Pescadores Group, that is to say, all islands lying between the 119th and 120th degrees of longitude east of Greenwich and the 23rd and 24th degrees of north latitude.

Did they really declare it as such? Mongolia declared independence in 1921. The Treaty between Tibet and Mongolia (1913) asserted the independence of both Tibet and Mongolia. But in both these cases, also with Eastern Turkestan, the ROC never gave up its claim. However, this was legally done for Taiwan, so it's unlikely they would declare otherwise. The map could be inaccurate. Are there any other old maps in existence?--Jiang 09:18, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't know that clearly actually. I have to check out that in my history book. I think what i have taught is that Taiwan was a part of the ROC all the time. What u said just reminds me that there is a the logical mistake. I need more sources to read... --Yacht 09:32, Mar 2, 2004 (UTC)

Maps that included both Taiwan and now-defunct Mainlander provinces of Xikang and Mongolia were in fact used in elementary->senior high geography textbooks until around 1995. Those textbooks may attach, as an appendix, the actual PRC divisions, maybe even calling it "illegitimate map" (偽). I believe the government stopped doing that now to the textbooks. Doublethink isn't that easy to keep up with Internet and all. The official info book doesn't even bother to include Mainland in its geography section: "The two sides of the Taiwan Strait have since been governed as separate territories." The charade got a bit tiring.

Many commercial maps of China are actually usually just rip-off of Mainlander cartographic publishing companies' (with the script traditionalized, of course. And the Kinmen-Matsu bit tweaked a bit...recoloured and erased enclusive boundary to Mainland Fujian). But if you look at those detailed "illegitimate" atlas books, which they gradually stopped making after Gimmo's death, they are basically the frozen subdivision structure of 1948, i.e., no prefectures at all. They do have county divisions too, but those are pre-1949 too. An aside is that those maps usually have labels so puny and colour scheme so bad that you can hardly read them. Thank god for GIS maps. I would love to see an "illegitimate" map of the Mainland made by ROC in 2004, down to the village level. It'd fun to see how they can subdivide a land they don't control. But of course...they gave those up along with the claim semi-officially.... ---Menchi 09:57, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The map is in simplified chinese though, so likely produced in the mainland. Old versions of the ROC sites from the mid 90's at http://www.archive.org do mention the area of china ("including outer mongolia") but i havent seen a map. --Jiang

[edit] Map anonmalies

This might be a late addition to the discussion, but it is interesting.....

Maps of historical China published recently in the PRC almost invariably have both Taiwan and Hong Kong colored in as part of the ROC between 1895 and 1945 with the notation English-occupied and Japanese-occupied. The interesting thing about this is that maps of the ROC published by the ROC in the 1930's don't include Taiwan as part of the ROC at all.

I'd like to create a wiki page which lists all of the mapping anonmalies in the world.

One of the more amusing things that I've seen was in a map store in the United States in a town with fairly large numbers of students from both the PRC and ROC. They sold two world maps (in English) one had Taiwan colored the same as the Mainland. The other didn't.

Roadrunner 05:38, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Map anonmalies definitely worth an article. How to Lie with Map is one such book dedicated to those sort of deceptive propagandas using maps. People've been doing it around the world for ages. --Menchi 17:32, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Provinces on the mainland

Should there be any description of the provinces on the mainland that the ROC had lost control but has not officially renounce its claim? -- 15:05, December 18, 2004, UTC

[edit] Quemoy and Matsu locator maps

I'm almost certain that this has been brought up before, but the locator maps on the Quemoy and Matsu pages make it seem as if those islands are someone in the middle of the ocean, which is clearly not the case.

What does everything think about having maps that actually show their relative locations to the Mainland and Taiwan? Something like the Alaska and Hawaii maps in other words. -- ran (talk) 19:21, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

Good. The current Matsu/Quemoy maps look like somebody just cropped the insets from a larger Chinese map....dubious copyright status. The labels shouldn't be in Chinese anyway. --Menchi 20:17, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What about using either one of the following maps as supplement? — Instantnood 16:54, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)

Cant tell anything from those maps--Jiang 04:08, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It would probably be a lot easier if there were an outline map with no topographical features that we can work with. -- ran (talk) 23:00, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and done the maps.

All comments and suggestions are of course welcome. :) -- ran (talk) 19:55, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

They're great. :-) — Instantnood 10:04, May 17, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] well there is probably only five romanizations, to discourage spies

It might just be worth Taiwan joining the PRC if there's no other way to clean up the romanization mess. (I want 100% Hanyu Pinyin.) --Jidanni 2006-04-16

[edit] "Political"

Is/are there any reason/s why these divisions are "political" rather than "administrative"...?  Thanks, David Kernow (talk) 07:24, 21 September 2006 (UTC)