Talk:Pokémon game mechanics

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This article was nominated for deletion on 2006/10/13. The result of the discussion was keep.

Contents 1 PP merge 2 rewrite 3 Move Pokémon attacks to own page 4 Effort values 5 Abilities Merge 6 Pokérus merge 7 Shiny Pokemon merge

[edit] PP merge

moved from Talk:List of Pokémon items

has ne1 seen the Power Points page? it's really sad and i don't think it could realistically ever be expanded ino more than a stub. Elixers and Ethers are already covered here, so all that would need to be added would be a section on PP UP and PP max and the article in question becomes obsolete. Any comments? -Zappernapper 20:52, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

almost all the information covered on Power Points is now covered here, except for a paragraph, that by the article's own admission is pure specualtion, and has no sources to back it up. I suggest creating a Power Points (PP redirect) disambiguation page that links to both Pokemon items and the pages mentioned here. -Zappernapper 09:47, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Power Points aren't technically "items". Maybe Pokémon game mechanics would be a better option.--The Raven's Apprentice ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 07:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

He said exactly what I was thinking. If you agree then we can change the merger to the mechanics page. Hybrid 08:49, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I do agree, however how should we redirect the page "Power Points"? I think it may be best to redirect it to a disambig page of "power point" because it is relevant to Domestic AC power plugs and sockets (what "power point" currently redirects to), Pokémon game mechanics, Magic Point, Dungeons & Dragons Psionics Handbook, In Nomine Satanis/Magna Veritas, and the Microsoft app Powerpoint. btw there are several possible combinations with capitalization, pluralization, and spacing that would require many old redirects to now point to the new disambig. page (i.e. "powerpoint" will give you the MS app and "powerpoints" gives you a search page - both are possible spellings of someone trying to find out about "Power Points"). -Zappernapper 16:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC) P.S. i would have responded sooner but i was up late and then my internet stopped working.

Go ahead. Tracker/TTV (myTalk|myWork|myInbox) 16:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

eh..... Powerpoint/Powerpoints, PowerPoint/PowerPoints, Power point/Power points, and Power Point/Power Points all need to be fixed, they go wherever, and some don't even go anywhere. -Zappernapper 17:02, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, we've got to be careful here. There's Microsoft PowerPoint, then there's powerpoints in terms of electrical fixings. We should see what happens to the Pokémon Power Points article before thinking about needing to make disambiguation pages or anything. It looks like it could possibly be moved into the Pokémon game mechanics article. --Brandon Dilbeck 20:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll talk to some of the other WikiProjects, including WP:WPDIS, about collaborating to make a disambiguation page at Power Point. One exists, but this one needs some large jurisdiction from the other projects. Tracker/TTV (myTalk|myWork|myInbox) 20:13, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm very aware for all the other uses, that's why i suggested the disambig page in the first place. Following other leads, the best practice seems to be to create something like, "Power Point (disambiguation)", leave all redirects in place (except for adding those red ones), and attach a "... for other uses see Power Point (disambiguation)" to the top of all relevant articles. creating disambig. pages without having the word in the title seems to be going against the trend and less intuitive. Especially with the variance we have. Another alternative would be to move general sounding articles ("Power points" is really the only one, e.g. the MS app is under the title of "Microsoft PowerPoint") to more specific titles (e.g. "Power points (pokemon)") and redirecting the old title to the disambig page. However i agree that we really need to decide what we're going to do with Power Points before assembling the disambig pages. -Zappernapper 17:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with others that the content of Power Points should be merged into Pokémon game mechanics and that the page itself should redirect to some form of disambiguation page. -- gtdp ^(T)/_(C) 19:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

This article should really be cleaned up and rewritten/merged into Pokémon game mechanics. Cabby2 21:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, this proposition has been up for over a week and from seven comments for and none against the consesus is to merge. This discussion will be moved to the game mechanics page for posterity and Power Points will redirect to the game mechanics page with an "other uses see..." notice. Power points will redirect to the dab page due to the similarity with "powerpoints" (AC outlet ref). If anyone disagrees with this please discuss first before moving these redirects. -Zappernapper 03:10, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] rewrite

i'm about to rewrite the page. i would gladly accept any help.capi 14:05, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

in the rewrite, i won't divide the article into generations, but each topic will refer to generatin changes, when needed. capi 23:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move Pokémon attacks to own page

I feel like it's a little long. And it would certainly fit nicely on it's own page, but I don't want to invite people to add long lists and game-guide information to meat it out. Anyone else feel the length of this section disrupts the flow? -ΖαππερΝαππερ ^Babel_Alexandria 18:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

First, it needs to be changed to "moves", instead of "attacks". Second, I think that the page Types of Pokémon moves should have its name changed back to just "Pokémon Move", and that this information should then be moved over there. That would get rid of the overly-long section here and put it where it's more applicable. I agree with your reason for the article's name change, but I think it's longer than necessary (and the first subheading now has the same name as the article itself). If we move this more general information there, and put it at the top of the article, the page name could be changed back, because it would then deal with the general definition of a Move as well as the different kinds of Moves.~e.o.t.d~ 19:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with your notion of using "moves" Perhaps you are using a non-US translation, but they described in the game as attacks and while move may be more encompassing or even logical, i don't think we should be forcing our own terminology when there is plenty from the game itself (a case could be alternately made for Vitamins or Nutrients because the game never refers to this group by name). Also, I'm not sure if merging the two pages is a good idea because the combined information would make a needlessly long article itself. Perhaps you can find a better alternative for the existing page's title if you don't like it's length. The heading problem can easily be rememdied by changing the hierarchy. -ΖαππερΝαππερ ^Babel_Alexandria 19:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

"Move" is a catchall that has been used in the games themselves in English translations, such as when learning a new one: "CHARIZARD wants to learn the move FLY. However, CHARIZARD already knows four moves. Should a move be deleted and replaced with FLY? [Yes] Which move should be forgotten?" Got that directly from my LeafGreen game, though my Charizard has a nickname. I think I even saw "Pokémon move" get the trademark allcaps treatment once, but I couldn't tell you where. --Sparky Lurkdragon 20:35, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I concede to moves. Don't ask, I'm not sure why i thought i read attacks when i had checked it but i orginally looked at the game when i was writing the section and had changed all my references of "moves" to "attacks". Neway, that being said, I still don't think that it should be combined with the information at Types of Pokémon moves because it would be too long. -ΖαππερΝαππερ ^Babel_Alexandria 22:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The info currently on Types of Pokémon moves needs to be trimmed way down, actually - I was working on doing that myself before schoolwork got in the way. :( If we make the rest less game-guide-y and move this stuff over, it should be a decent length. But the info here needs to stay in some form or another (probably also heavily trimmed), because it contains the basic information about what a move is and how they work.~e.o.t.d~ 01:50, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

of course there would still be info here :) it just would have a {{main}} template directing to Pokémon moves which would be a verbatim copy of the current section. As the author of most of it, i find it hard to find information that is unneccessary, just much of it would be more appropriate in an article about the subject rather than a section. I won't be inclined to think the two (Types of Pokémon moves and Pokémon moves) should be combined until I know exactly how much trimming will be done on the former. -ΖαππερΝαππερ ^Babel_Alexandria 17:40, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Effort values

While i understand that dispensing charts and highly specific information about EV training would be what wiki is NOT, there is at least one item (Macho Brace), several berries, and a few NPCs that all utilize this mechanic. It would seem to be doing a diservice to not at least mention Effort Points.

Effort Values are a reflection of the effort a trainer has put into raising a Pokémon. They represent that Pokémon's skill in certain areas of combat, and take the form of points awarded for six main attributes: Attack, Special Attack, Defense, Special Defense, Speed, and Hit Points. Each of these statistics may reach a maximum value of 255 points, with a maximum total of 510 EVs in its lifetime. Each Pokémon specializes in 1-2 of the six areas. When the trainer's Pokémon faints another Pokémon, he or she will receive 1-3 EV points. Four EV points equals to +1 stat increase when the Pokémon levels up. Advanced FAQs often use the term EV spreads to describe what kind of EV training that a Pokémon should get. Players may also buy vitamins from a department store to boost EVs, but it is very expensive.

There is no in-game method of determining what EV points that a Pokémon currently has; players must keep thorough track of what Pokémon were battled. EV points accidentally acquired can be reduced by feeding that Pokémon berries. A Macho Brace will cut the Pokémon's speed in half but double the EV points that he or she gets. Once a Pokémon fills up all 510 EVs, a lady in Slateport will award the Pokémon a ribbon.

This was the section that used to exist on the page. I realize it could be slightly tweaked, sources added, specific numerical values removed, but I ask what is inherently wrong with having this kind of information in wiki? It deals with the info in an informative rather than instructive fashion, explaining Effort Values' presence in the video game in prose rather than resorting to lengthy lists of technical minutiae. Agreement? Disapproval? Improvements? There currently exists a page: Effort value points Rather than AfD it outright, I thought it may be possible to merge it here. -ΖαππερΝαππερ ^Babel_Alexandria 19:04, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they should definitely be mentioned. The info on the page right now seems fine (I know little enough about the EV system, but it tells me essentially what it is).~e.o.t.d~ 01:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Abilities Merge

I'd suggest merging Pokémon abilities into this article as part of its improvement. I didn't put the merge template up, but I definitely agree with it. You agree, Zappernapper (or anyone else)?~e.o.t.d~ 06:29, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree also. I can't think of any reason that it would need its own article. -- M C Y 1008 07:28, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

yes definitly, as long as the histories are merged as well, pokemon ability has an indepth hitory. the other article is definitely short enough, I just want to wait a little longer before asking an admin to merge the histories, because there have been quite a few editors to it. -ΖαππερΝαππερ ^Babel_Alexandria 17:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, too. It would make a nice, beefy addition to the article. --Brandon Dilbeck 17:52, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pokérus merge

Pokérus is a very minor, advanced function. It shouldn't merit its own article, much like the rest of these advanced tactics and functions. Hbdragon88 18:04, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm surprised that the Pokérus article contains so much info! I think it wouldn't hurt to merge it; it's hardly notable to deserve its own article. --Brandon Dilbeck 01:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

i'm actually disinclined to include it as a game mechanic. while it is definitely an aspect of the Effort Point mechanic, it is only in the same respect as the Macho Brace, deserving of a brief mention and nothing more. However, outside of this article there certainly is much more to say about it (as evidenced by the page) as long as it gets some references. Including an article like Pokerus in here not only would detract from the core topic of mechanics but also lead people to beleive other topics like glitches should be dumped here too. This is akin to the detail currently at the items. I would prefer to not talk about berries and such but am currently in the mindset of allowing people to add information so that it can be later pruned down. -ΖαππερΝαππερ ^Babel_Alexandria 02:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

There's already a separate article for glitches: Notable glitches in the Pokémon video games. Other glitches sare covered in the games themselves. But Pokérus transcends two generations (G/S/C and R/S/E, surely in D/P as well but unconfirmed), so I think it's worthy of including somewhere. Discussing berries and those stat-boosting items (like Miracle Seed, Mystic Water) are extremely specific gameplay elements; they'd also be very list-like, with little or no actual prose. Hbdragon88 09:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm aware of the glitches article, my point was that this would be akin to performing a merger of that article if we were to perform a merger of Pokerus. Ok, so not totally the same things, because glitches are by their nature unintentional, but the effect upon mechanics is the same. Pokerus can get included with a passing mention, but not a full merger of the article as it is. And berries and such currently are discussed in this article (not for too much longer though...) and it is regettable. You may be interested to know that there is an article entitled List of Pokemon items. Now the thing is that while i certainly agree that the mechanic of items, both using them and being able to hold them, is important and within the scope of this article, i do not feel that what the items themselves are should really be discussed in all but the most superficial sense possible. There is (surprisingly) quite a bit of information in the Pokerus article, and if it were moved here it would have to be pared down to a couple sentences to stay within the scope of the article something like:

The Pokerus is a feature that was first implmeneted in GSC that caused Pokemon to gain double the normal amount of Effort Points from each battle.

And here's the thing, i'm even admitting it's a FEATURE, not a mechanic that's part of gameplay. Much like how the Mystery Gift is specifically not included (however it would be very appropriate in an article Pokemon items). The only place to put this sentence would be in the Effort Point section. The Pokerus article as it stands is plenty long enough to be it's own article and only needs to e referenced. -ΖαππερΝαππερ ^Babel_Alexandria 11:52, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not about length, it's about suitability. Other concepts arguably have a greater chacne of expansion, like Effort Values, but they're all merged into a big "List of" article. The Pokerus article as it stands now also includes a lot of game guide-like information that shouldn't be there in the first place, like describing the exact chances of catching it and how other players try to keep it intact. Like the other concepts, I believe that Pokerus should also be merged into an article. It would be deceptive to merge it into the Pokemon items, as Pokerus is not an item. If you state that it isn't a mechanic, where else can it go? Hbdragon88 23:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

you misunderstood me, i wasn't saying that Pokerus should go into Pokemon items, i was saying my example, Mystery gift, would do well in a non-listy article about Pokemon items, even though it is a feature and not an item itself. I don't think it can go anywhere else, that's why i don't want to merge it. I disagree with you about the Pokerus as a game-guide article. Describing the odds' exact number is perfectly suitable for descrbing how difficult it is to come across, numbers don't always mean game-guide (even though i do usually remove them whenever i see them for the sole reason that a general layperson will not understand or really care what a 110 base speed means) when they are being used to convey relevant, useful information - see Monopoly (game). Additionally, as it stands, it is not suggesting what players should do it is only telling them strategies that have been employed, while this should be referenced (preferebly serebii's dissertation) it is not disallowed as it is documented strategy from a reliable source, much in the same way chess moves are discussed (but not properly referenced either). -ΖαππερΝαππερ ^Babel_Alexandria 15:12, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

rereading your comments and my resonse i fear not addressing you concernse specifically enough. Effort Values may very well be expanded and when it is too long (perhaps like Pokemon moves) it will be put into its own article, but since it is a mechanic it starts here, and will always at least have a paragraph with a link to the main article. Because, as i've said, Pokerus isn't a mechanic it doesn't belong here. If you can think of an article that would be properly suited to contain it, that's fine. But i caution against something like Pokemon concepts as the term is too vague and could cause confusion as to why things like Pokemon capturing are located here instead of there. Pokemon features? That may be appropriate, and could then include more detailed discussions of the mini-games, a small section on the gamelink cable (and infrared port and cell phone adapter), discussion of Mystery gift, Pokepresents in Stadium, the Doduo and Dodrio GB players in stadium. There what do you think? -ΖαππερΝαππερ ^Babel_Alexandria 15:26, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I have to say merge, because the current options are a) leave it as its own article (and it's certainly not notable enough for that, in my opinion) or b) merge it into Effort Values in Mechanics. I say it's not notable because it's very rare, never discussed in the game unless you actually encounter it, and unless you know what EVs do (which those who aren't intimately familiar with the game mechanics don't), it doesn't seem to do anything at all, besides a vague "makes the Pokémon grow faster" idea.

ZN has a point that it's a feature, and not a mechanic, but check this out: the Victory Road article was recently merged into the Elite Four. While the two are different things, they're fairly closely related, and it doesn't seem at all weird to see Victory Road's info where it is. The same thing goes for Pokérus: no, it's not a mechanic, but it's very closely related to EVs, and doesn't need its own article. Summarize it in a couple of sentences, and ref/link an outside source (like Bulbapedia, whose article on Pokérus, though not as nice-looking as the one here, has all the necessary info).

Also, the hypothetical Pokémon features article isn't at all necessary - all these features can be discussed adequately in other articles, such as the game they first appeared in. ~e.o.t.d~ 02:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

quite bluntly - we are doing a diservice by merging any article that seems "non-notable" enough not to get it's own article, we are perpetuating a misconception of what constitutes a game mechanic. Additionally to reduce the article to a couple sentences because that's all it would conceivably deserve within this article is counter-productive to the encyclopedia. -ΖαππερΝαππερ ^Babel_Alexandria 20:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shiny Pokemon merge

moved from Talk:Shiny Pokémon

Really, this is mostly just an article about Shiny Pokémon in the video games. - A Link to the Past (talk) 00:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

i disagree, the article covers discussion of shinies in both the anime and TCG as well. In addition, i would even be adverse to the idea of adding a section along the lines of "Shiny Pokemon in the video games" to this article because shininess is most definitely not a game mechanic. It's like an easter egg or feature, something extraneous that has no impact on the core gameplay. please refer to the above discussion for similar arguments. -ΖαππερΝαππερ ^Babel_Alexandria 18:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

TCG content could be merged into the TCG article, anime content could be merged into the Pokémon's respective pages. Also, really, the event of a Pokémon being shiny is a game mechanic - what with their being a mechanic behind it being shiny. Is the bag pockets section more relevant than Pokémon being shiny? - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:29, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

actually i hate the bag pockets section, but have left it alone because i was too lazy to write a good summary of Pokemon items. Of course, now with that being AFD'd i'm just waiting to find out what will need to be done to this article. Anyways... setting aside the 2 wrongs = right argument... your definition of "game mechanic" does not fall in line with the nomenclature common to game development. Shininess has no impact on gameplay. Let's take Monopoloy. The Chance and Community Chest cards would be a mechanic, they are a driving force behind the actual gameplay. However, the Dog playing piece would not be a mechanic because it doesn't matter what your piece looks like. While it would certainly be appropriate to discuss even the mechanic (concept) of using playing pieces or (possibly) listing the pieces available, it would NOT be appropriate to discuss the fact that Monopoly has released gold-plated versions, or any significant history about a single piece (contrarily, it would be appropriate to mention if the number of available pieces had dramtaically changed throughout the history or in certain versions because that would potentially severally affect gameplay) - the non-relevant info would be better located at the main Monopoly page or something that talked about general changes in variations. Likewise, while i would concede to commenting on shininess's effects on EVs in GSC and saying that later this just became an aesthetic difference - the difficulty of finding one, it's relations to the anime, and any other info on it's history would not be disussed. This actually returns to the whole splitting-them-into-the-different-articles idea. One, it's inefficient for anyone who is just looking for info on that specific topic ("what is shininess neways?"). Two, we don't tend to split up concepts when they're found in multiple medium (Poke ball has it's own page, even though it could potentially be split into the different articles). -ΖαππερΝαππερ ^Babel_Alexandria 21:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Well fine then - it's a minor concept, unlike Pokéball. Wherever it is merged or redirected, it doesn't matter to me - as long as it doesn't get an article. - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:11, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

see, that's why i'm disputing this... your view is just "it shouldn't have an article". Not that it doesn't deserve commentary and not that it violates any policy. If it fit somewhere appropriate i would say GO AHEAD, but it doesn't. If you really detest the idea of concepts like these getting their own pages then go ahead and create a group article like i mentioned above, Pokémon game features would be an aptly titled article for these types of things, but i personally have no problem with them remaining their own articles so someone else will have to do the physical work. other topics to include would be Pokerus and the minigames. -ΖαππερΝαππερ ^Babel_Alexandria 21:39, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Just because it doesn't fit anywhere does not mean that it has to be separate. I just redirected Nintendo underwear to Nintendo, should that stay an article because it wouldn't work at any article on Wikipedia but its own? - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:01, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

no, b/c it is properly related to the Nintendo company which is what the article is about... this article is not about extraneous features irrelevant to gameplay. -ΖαππερΝαππερ ^Babel_Alexandria 00:24, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

It's hard to say...SuperWiki5 23:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC)